Virtualization Megathread V2: VMs inside VMs

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Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Alctel posted:

What are y'all using for anti-virus for your virtualisation enviroments?

We have 3 ESXi 5 hosts with around 30 VMs on - we are also moving to a VMWare View solution for workstations with around 50 end users.

I was looking at the thing from mcaffee - anything else you'd suggest?

Getting into vShield and introspection based AV for such a small environment is probably overkill on the complexity and cost front - you'd almost certainly be better off using a standard AV product and managing your scan/update schedules.
We currently do normal AV for 5500 VDI machines in this manner, with only a few edge cases causing issues. A moderately well configured in-guest AV has a simple overhead which reduces the number of guests per host, but not by a massive amount.
I'm looking at a PoC for MOVE early next year, but couldn't tell you if we'll adopt from this far out; we're a very large and very conservative environment, so other cutting edge users might have a different take.

luminalflux posted:

Is there seriously no way to set the iLO password of an ESXi 4.1 host on HP hardware via software? In Linux there's hponcfg that can do this, and a .vib is provided by HP for hponcfg for ESXi 5.0, but I can't find one for 4.1. Don't really want to upgrade to ESXi 5 either.

I'm pretty sure you can't do it from within ESXi - our engineering guys were playing around with it and ended up using the Windows based HP tool from the deployment server on each new host. This may also have been because they're lazy, or because they wanted to have the entire deployment solution in one place.

# ¿ May 12, 2012 15:28

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 18:29

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

We run all of our Dev MSSQL against win2k8r2 in VMware 4.1 on DL380s backed over 10Gb to NetApp 6240s.
They try to cook it, still hasn't happened.

# ¿ May 13, 2012 19:32

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

luminalflux posted:

Is there a way to extract performance metrics from vCenter to another graphing tool? I'd like to take the graphs I can see in vSphere Client under the "Performance" tab and get them into something like Graphite or Munin. I looked a bit at SNMP, but vCenter only has traps, no performance counters at all.

I know I'm a little late here, but PowerCLI has the get-stat command, if you do a little googling there's some great posts by LucD on using it.
You can also use get-view on virtualmachine and gather the VM summary, which will always have quickstats and is very fast to return. There are also pretty simple techniques to gather the realtime stats as well.

I wrote a bespoke script with it to gather VM cpu/mem stats from 17 vCenters and dig out what needed rightsizing, so it'll probably provide you what you need.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2012 18:39

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

luminalflux posted:

I later found a post on how to get stats from PowerCLI into Graphite, which is exactly what I was looking for. I would have preferred VMware exposing that over SNMP or the Ruby interface having support for get-stat, instead of having to use yet another system to get stats in, but this works.

I'm glad you found a way to get it working, but that dude's script is massively inefficient. He shouldn't be running a get-stat for each host individually unless that's the only way to get realtime stats; much faster to run it for all hosts by feeding get-stat a list of entities, then running a group-object by entityId afterwards to process on.
Most of the effort with PowerCli isn't getting it working, it's making it run in less than 4 hrs and 4GB of ram.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2012 20:33

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

three posted:

I can't think of anything that VMware says not to virtualize.

Physical dependency cards, low latency systems, flakey RDMs, Anything that licenses by MAC address, non-stop systems requiring more than 1 cpu. Of course most people don't have these issues.

vty posted:

Veeam rocks in my testing, by the way.

Veeam doesn't scale easily beyond a few hundred VMs, and has had quite a few 'How did that bug make it through to release' moments which make me not trust it. PHD Virtual has rarely failed me, and scales up to 4 figures worth of VMs on good hardware in my experience.

DJ Commie posted:

How useful is a HP Proliant DL585 G5 for VMs?

IIRC the G5's had the early versions of the virtualisation hardware support for Memory and CPU, so it should be pretty decent. It's pretty aged now but you should be able to run quite a bit on it. I've still got Excel Calc farms running on BL685 G1s so there's no excuses.
Don't run it at home though, I'll gently caress your power bill.

Digital_Jesus posted:

I didn't see a clearly defined answer here but maybe I missed it. My understanding of the VMware Essentials Plus package was a 192GB VRAM limit across 3 hosts, 6 processors, and you may only allocate a maximum of 32GB of VRAM *per instance*. Yes?

The new licensing is best thought of in 3 sections:
1st is the number of physical Cpu sockets you're licensed for, you buy this number of licenses.
2nd you take the number of licenses you've bought and multiply that by the VRAM entitlement, this is the amount of allocated memory your powered on VMs may have across the entire environment
3rd take a look at the type of license you've bought, that tells you the maximum size of your VM.

So essentials plus was (last I checked) 6 CPU licenses for 1st, 2nd is 6 x 32, or 192 GB of powered on VMs added to your environment pool, and 3rd is 96GB Max VM size, which you'll never hit.

My new PODs land next week; 39x HP DL380 G8, Octo core and starting with 192GB backing onto my new NetApp 6240s and VMax. Time for a loving upgrade.

# ¿ Jun 15, 2012 23:50

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

three posted:

Any source to this? Not to say it's not true, but I haven't seen these listed publicly before.

If you're talking about official documentation then you are certainly right - they'll say you can virtualise anything. If you're talking about what VMware PSO get up to, then those are items I can remember from the list of regular issues.

FISHMANPET posted:

You can change the MAC in the OS to get around MAC address licensing, can't you? Of course if you're starting out virtual then just be sure that VM always has the same MAC.

You can change it in the .vmx file as well. However it becomes a problem when you inadvertently change the MAC and haven't saved it anywhere which VMware newbies regularly do. This was/is often a problem for people new to virtualisation especially when P2Ving from an old environment.

# ¿ Jun 16, 2012 08:40

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Corvettefisher posted:

1. What cards? a bunch of v.56 manufactures offer software counterparts to their modems for VM enviroments
2. What protocol are you using, what is your SAN/NAS setup
3. No problem with my current MSCS setup, what problems are you having?
4. You can enable forged transmissions
5. Yeah it sucks FT is limited to 1 vcpu, but any system that is clusterable should run on vmware and have HA support at the very least

1. New cards, perhaps even recently manufactured ones, but there are plenty of devices that run in servers that can't be retired in the enterprise space. A great example is the 386 running the legacy voice mail system in my office; the only manufacturer of its parts that still exists is Intel. Of course, if the card was software emulate-able then it wouldn't be a physical dependency would it?
2.When I talk about low latency I'm referencing production high speed trading systems for an investment bank. The guys cut code on my regular VMware stack but only test and deploy on physical to keep the stack as short as possible.
3. There are flaws in the 4.0 release where having a dead RDM will cause a VM to not boot while the hypervisor continually polls the paths waiting for it to come back, all without an error message outside of messages. 4.0 release was a rewrite of the FC stack and it was a little buggy, and I can't upgrade that cluster just yet because of other dependencies.
4. Yeah, there's lots of ways around it these days, it's an old school example.
5. What, like Oracle RAC? That's only very recently supported, and I'm struggling to think of many examples where I'd want non-stop and only 1 cpu would be ok - maybe an IP load balancer.

They might be edge cases, but that's kind of the point - I don't trust a salesman who tells me that their platform does everything, because they're going to sell me up the river.

Corvettefisher posted:

Domain controllers are not reccomended to be virtualized. I can't say I have had problems with 2008 and later but 2k3 have problems.

Misogynist is bang out - Win2k3's have be on the white list for a few years now much like you correctly pointed out MAC-issues are.

Mausi fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jun 17, 2012

# ¿ Jun 17, 2012 19:30

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

nuckingfuts posted:

Gotcha, I've only used converter standalone. I wasn't even aware there was a vcenter plugin / enterprise version.

Not so long ago, having a copy of the standalone version was the mark of someone who knew someone inside of VMware professional services or had an enterprise license. How things change.

I'd buy a play box for $600 with 72Gb of ram, even if I didn't use it in production.
If I really wanted to save money, I'd use that as a main box, then have a cheap NFS or iSCSI + backup solution providing shared storage, not bother with DRS/HA and just have a script which registered the VMs on a second cheap host and powered them on in the event of failure. You don't get DRS but if you don't need 24/7 systems then why pay for it unless you don't like working the odd evening.
Downtime is inevitable, and it's relative to how bad it is for the business and how much you pay to avoid extending it.
Your scenarios end up being:
1. Primary host is hosed; run script and be back up in 15mins.
2. Shared storage is hosed; you'd be hosed with fancy-rear end clusters anyway. Back up in 2 days with fixed or new storage.
3. Both are hosed; boy are you properly hosed now, better use a backup and order next-day delivery from NewEgg. Back up in 2 days.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2012 23:12

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

After wrestling with MS Project for the last 6 hours, it is now telling me that it's going to take the next 18 months to upgrade our environment to vSphere 5.

Along the way we'll be retiring all non supported hardware (20% of the environment), ESX3.x (another 20%), lots of old FC(40% ish of the storage) and consolidating 9 segregated networks down to 5 while moving more towards 10GbE and NFS and away from 1GbE and FC.

:smithicide:

I wanted a job with a challenge, this one appears to need a lobotomy.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2012 23:20

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Moey posted:

It is at our DR site/Colo and is only managing 3 hosts (essentials plus).

Shove it on a VM and affinity it to the first host in the cluster so you can find it easily in an emergency.

\/\/\/\/\/\/
Congratulations!

Mausi fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 30, 2012

# ¿ Jun 30, 2012 17:56

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

No separate vMotion?

# ¿ Jul 3, 2012 19:26

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Also, looking at your whiteboard there, it implies that you're going to run 4x 10GbE connections to each host, which is ridiculous.
Presumably you're running a single 10GbE to each host from each physical switch, then vLan segregating your traffic types? At which point carving off vMotion or anything else is an arbitrary task.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2012 20:27

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Unless you're going to be running some weird ethernet bound IO traffic or network heavy virtualisation (which I doubt) then you don't need any more than 2 connections per host.
It depends on what you're going to be hosting, but you probably don't even need to worry about QoS either.

For comparison, around 100 of my hosts (24cores x 144Gb) run everything via two 10GbE Copper out to a pairs of Cisco Nexus5k with minimal QoS involved. You just shouldn't need the extra cabling.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2012 22:36

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

I run 4500 VMs on NFS because dedupe, also dedupe and cheaper because of dedupe.
Some of our development databases (SQL, Sybase and Oracle) have also been moved over for the same reasons. That being said, we're looking at potentially cheaper storage solutions like DAS for certain kinds of desktop deployment.

NFS will never replace DMX/VMAX for us on the server side, but nothing else is coming close on price/performance/manageability (according to the beancounters) to the pile of 6240s we're amassing. And it's getting towards being a loving pile, which is a different problem.

We run it on 10GbE on Cisco Nexus though, so this may make a difference over your average small implementation, but it's a lot easier for us to manage right now than the legacy FC environment.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2012 23:48

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Misogynist posted:

Hypervisor swap is so completely uncommon since they implemented memory compression in 4.1 that seriously, gently caress yourself and your career if you let your environment get so oversubscribed that you're swapping.

but but but...I inherited it that way; I put an alert on ballooning over 20% physical memory and swap over 5% physical memory and holy poo poo did I have to clear my inbox.
The guy who handed it over to me was all "But memory allocation is at 175%; it's efficient!" :eng99:

# ¿ Jul 10, 2012 21:26

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Misogynist posted:

Get-Stat seems reaaaaally slow. Do you know if other API approaches are any quicker? I'm about to just start querying the vCenter database, which seems like it's an order of magnitude quicker.

Yeah, it's drat slow but you're already pulling from the VC tables, just indirected through PowerCLI. You also have to consider that you end up with an average of averages which is dangerous to use for inappropriate measurements.
When I use get-stat, I do precisely one call which gets everything I want, and then process the rest in hash tables from there on in. If you're making more than one call to it you're asking for pain.

I'm not aware of faster methods beyond pulling the data into another tool which correlates as it goes and gives you a report whenever you push the button.
VCOps is great, Netuitive does ok, haven't tried much else but I hear things like Graphite can do cool poo poo if you have the time to build something specific.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2012 23:28

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Corvettefisher posted:

I wouldn't worry about clock too much as oppose to running EVC or similar CPU family.

CPU Selection isn't too involved, but it's worth remembering a couple of things

VDI usually wants fewer but faster vCPU - your users will notice the difference.
Calculation farms are much the same, limited by the max proc speed
If you're going for high density (6:1 or higher) then cpu cache starts to have a disproportionate impact
Don't overlook the importance of NUMA when sizing this stuff - running an 8vCPU VM on hex core pCPUs is poor planning
Modern releases of VMware get quite a lot out of Hyperthreading when dealing with smaller/quieter workloads

My environment runs Intel X56 series 3Ghz+ for calculation farms and key personnel VDI. We run a ton of cheaper E74 series 2.4Ghz- for Dev. Nothing under 2Ghz because it worked out as a waste of a box. The general environment is ageing though, so I need to sit down and work out cpu/mem ratios again.

# ¿ Jul 28, 2012 10:27

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Mausi posted:

Calculation farms are much the same, limited by the max proc speed

Misogynist posted:
Why virtualize these?

Most of them are running Windows XP for Excel model processing, some of the rest are only used for batch processing so you don't want to waste the hardware the rest of the time but they have to maintain their specific OS configuration. Sometimes it's a segregation of services thing where they have to firewalled off from other stuff but we can virtualise that also.
Basically, in general, it's a legacy thing.
The speed overhead for vSphere is only a few percent so it's considered cost effective, especially as it also gives them DR on what is essentially a desktop solution.

Also, we run a virtualise first policy

# ¿ Jul 29, 2012 11:12

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

I get around 60 Windows 7 VMs (usually 1x3) on a 12 core HT DL380 with memory to spare from the 144Gb we provision them with as standard.
We have an exceptionally resident-process heavy corporate desktop, so it's lower than usual, but no-one is doing complex graphical work. I still see CPU peg for the first 15 mins of any shift change.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2012 01:59

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Corvettefisher posted:

Questions

The CPU pegs for 15mins on the cluster, not individual VMs - each VM caps out for less than a couple of minutes during login. It's primarily due to two factors; we run a monolithic desktop which is the same for physical and virtual, and it has a lot of compliance tracking apps for various things which start up a session at login and stay memory resident.
The hardware is HP DL380s running Intel E7450 @ 2.4Ghz, storage is primarily NetApp 6240s over 10GbE on Nexus at about 200% overallocation per volume. We never hit an IOPS issue on the filer, it's really just the desktop build is nowhere near optimised for virtualisation. And we don't use a connection broker, it's all 1:1 mappings, again for compliance.

The 1x3s are for secondary Windows 7 VMs, we're exploring using 2x4 or 2x6 for primary machines for offshore workers, but it's pretty drat cost-inefficient because of the other platform limitations above.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2012 10:15

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Veeam want to come in and sell me stuff - I've already got Netuitive for Performance/Capacity/Rightsizing and my backup/replication isn't going anywhere near their platform, so what the hell else do they have?
Maybe reporting or chargeback modelling - but I'm pretty sure I can do Chargeback with Netuitive if I wanted to, and I've already got an in-house app for environment reporting.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2012 21:55

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Mierdaan posted:

Also, VMware likes to ask really stupid, pointless questions.

Which is to say anything that isn't about ESXi, vCenter and possibly SRM.

# ¿ Aug 21, 2012 23:04

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

FISHMANPET posted:

Current project, replace an ESX3 machine with ESXi5

I'm still retiring ESX3.x hosts, you're not alone good sir.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2012 22:19

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Erwin posted:

What was the problem VMware SSO was supposed to solve again? Stuff working correctly too often?

I'm just testing on the 5.5.0b binaries now, and they've finally added the Windows AD as an identity source by default, hurrah!
I find the new SSO better than the first one by a couple of miles, but it's still very much a version 1.0 product, much like the VUM PSCLI.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2014 17:18

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

All else being equal, if you do want to just get the VM to boot with a VMXNET3 adapter instead of the E1000 (without changing the MAC etc) you can simply force the change using powershell and reboot.

Get-NetworkAdapter -vm VMName | Set-NetworkAdapter Vmxnet3

We had a shitload of linux Dev VMs auto-deploy with E1000 instead of VMXNET3 on the vSphere4 environment because someone cocked up the blueprint, a quick script using the above redid all 300ish of them without any (reported) issues.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2014 14:23

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Vmware's support of IE10 is patchy, and IE11 plain doesn't work for a lot of things even with 5.5.0b.
If you can run up a machine with IE9 I find it's the most stable of the lot.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2014 14:14

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Ashex posted:

I was auditing a datastore yesterday and found there was only ~300GB free of 1.9TB total (Free Space/Capacity). Quickly figured out someone on our team was using ESX as their development environment. Adding up the used space (not provisioned space) of these VMs came to about 900GB. After talking to him he removed the majority of the VMs but the Free Space hasn't changed (made sure to refresh it). Looking in the datastore itself shows they were removed to, am I missing something? I need to migrate a couple large-ish VMs to this datastore :/

Was it by any chance thin provisioned disks on NFS volumes? I vaguely recall some problems with unmap and clearing allocated thin disks before 5.5.0
If you check from the array side for actual consumed and compare against what the host is seeing you might find some correlation on the missing space.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2014 11:52

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Wicaeed posted:

Is there any way to check which vCenter servers are registered an Inventory server?

Not finding anything in the VMware docs that would tell me this.

Can you see anything in the logs which would give you a clue?
[2008]ProgramData\VMware\Infrastructure\Inventory Service\Logs\
[2003]C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\VMware\Infrastructure\Inventory Service\Logs\

I can't see anything in the documentation that would allow you to query which vCenters are registered with an inventory service.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2014 13:48

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Make sure you manage your shared storage microcode as you upgrade your hosts, nobody wants old NetApp code running against their 5.x clusters.

# ¿ Jan 27, 2014 00:14

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Daylen Drazzi posted:

There really should be a guide on what to look out for when picking equipment.

You're not alone by a long shot; I know a $megacorp that effectively did this and are now bitching about paying expensive datacentre techs to do floorwalks every morning looking for drive failures.

# ¿ Jan 27, 2014 13:20

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Erwin posted:

Why would a megacorp not buy servers from another megacorp that provides custom ESXi images?

Oh they use standard HP servers, they just decided to integrate a monitoring solution that couldn't interpret the CIM data to figure out if a disk was dead or not, but because some senior execs were keen on the monitoring product it was kept. It also had a neat thing of knowing that an HBA or NIC was failing, but couldn't tell you which one. They also wouldn't allow SNMP traps (too insecure apparently) and vCenter emailed alerts were considered bad because it didn't 'tightly integrate' with their 'standard monitoring solution'.

Perfectly standard megacorp behaviour.

# ¿ Jan 27, 2014 15:35

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Echoing others, the absolute earliest I would bother installing is 4.1u3 unless your hardware really doesn't support it - we're about to move off of it onto 5.5.0b (complete rebuild, yay! but I don't any hands on with the intervening versions)

If your hardware doesn't support 5.5.0b then go with the last bugfixed version of 5 you do support before they went to the new SSO model, which given Dilber As gently caress is pushing 5.0u2, is probably that one.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2014 00:14

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

El_Matarife posted:

VMware announced a VCP5-DCV test based on 5.5 last week, so that's less of an issue.
http://blogs.vmware.com/education/2014/01/new-vsphere-5-5-based-exam-for-vcp5-dcv-available.html

Thanks, I hadn't seen this - maybe I can convince the bosses to give me some training budget to expand my VCP to something more marketable, which they probably won't as I'd then be more likely to go consulting again.
That said though, I recall the VCP being basically 50% marketing questions on Products I don't care about and 50% easy technical questions, so I might be able to just coast through these as well.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2014 13:45

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Dilbert As gently caress posted:

Some poo poo about lab manager, View, vCloud; nothing terrible indepth but you had to know what they were and why you would use them

Yeah this; I rolled my eyes at the VSA question because who would use that horrible ver1.0 poo poo anyway? I accept that it makes sense for a professional qualification to check that you are at least aware of the main product lines though.

adorai posted:

You can, we did. Not sure exactly how, as I didn't set it up, but it's possible.

Broadly generalising; we're doing automated vCenter installs (including SSO etc) as active-active across two datacentres by sticking the sso domain behind a load balancer and telling the monkeys to use the webclient for single-pane access, leaving the fat client for the people who do tricky stuff. Yeah I'll have to fat client into multiple boxes, but that's what Powershell is for.

Dilbert As gently caress posted:

I thought it was just you couldn't manage SRM through the web client?

And use other handy things like the NetApp VSC plugin - being halfway between two clients is really annoying; one of them is slow but has the new features, the other supports all the other crap but lacks SSO and new features. *sigh*

Mausi fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Jan 29, 2014

# ¿ Jan 29, 2014 00:38

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

skipdogg posted:

Well I thought it was going to be a slow day at work, but a different department is having issues with their ESX 4 cluster. One of the hosts just shows up disconnected. Network connectivity and all the normal troubleshooting seems fine, storage is fine, but I can't even login to the local console on the physical host to try to restart the management service or anything. It's just completely hung.

On my old environment this was usually all-paths-down or similar issues, sometimes figuring out which HBA going into the host is hosed and unplugging it brought the management console back into service. But usually we just waited until after hours and gave it the 3finger salute.

Bob Morales posted:

Any reason for/against installing vCenter 5.0u2 on Server 2008 instead of 2012?

I'm running 5.5.0b on 2008r2 with no issues, so I can't see why you'd have issues with earlier releases. Going for the latest stable release which supports your hardware is 100% the best way to go.

# ¿ Jan 30, 2014 23:46

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Bob Morales posted:

Why the heck would you not enable VT-x on a goddamn VMware server?

Depending on the server Vendor and Bios version, they'll ship with it disabled. Sometimes a Bios upgrade will reset the configuration. Sometimes the chucklehead who swapped out the faulty mainboard didn't put the standard bios settings back. Can't think of any others at the moment.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2014 23:59

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

wibble posted:

I�ve logged a number of calls with HP

If you can get on the console via SSH they should be getting you to run vm-support and giving them the logs to analyze.
http://kb.vmware.com/kb/1010705
There can be lots of reasons that the management agent won't start up, from simple things like being out of log space to unresolvable issues like socket bugs.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2014 22:40

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Reading you guys I feel like a spoiled little rear end in a top hat with my VMware Ent+ ELA.
Makes me kinda jealous in another way that you're getting to hack around with maturing tech though, I kinda miss that.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2014 09:59

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Dr. Arbitrary posted:

You need the DCD in order to get VCDX right? What do you think a 23y/o VCDX is worth?

If I could insert you as technical SME into a team with more experienced hands on the helm that'd be great. In London in that scenario you'd be pulling 50-70k with one of the large multinationals.
Unfortunately your age will play a factor, but a smart hiring manager will recognise the value of a dedicated SME regardless.

For reference, I'm 32 with no DCD but work as the SME for one of the largest banks.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2014 11:37

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 18:29

Mausi: Apr 11, 2006

Bob, I don't get what question you are asking here?

---

I also see 'Transferable' as 'Will it get me a job', at which point I'd really be questioning the value of investing time learning a suite with less than 20% marketshare unless I already had a job lined up for it.
I mean sure, you need to be conversant with the tech if you want to head into that space, but there's no point digging into specific implementations until you know you're going to need them, especially if that involves skipping the market gorillas.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2014 15:05

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