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AVeryLargeRadish
Aug 19, 2011

WolfDad is Best Dad.


richardfun posted:

Huh? Aside from the obvious lunacy, how does a state House expect to impeach FEDERAL judges? Am I missing something here?

It's calling for the impeachment of federal judges, not actually impeaching them.

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Freudian
Mar 23, 2011

God Can't Hate Forever


If I'm interpreting correctly, Prester John is saying that whenever you attack the nutjobs, a bunch of moderates spontaneously gather to indignantly claim that they have been personally targeted by you insulting the nutjobs - because deep down they share the nutjobs' core values, and just don't want to openly flaunt them. And Prester John has been responded to by a bunch of people spontaneously gathering to indignantly claim that this is an attack on all right-wingers.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Freudian posted:

If I'm interpreting correctly, Prester John is saying that whenever you attack the nutjobs, a bunch of moderates spontaneously gather to indignantly claim that they have been personally targeted by you insulting the nutjobs - because deep down they share the nutjobs' core values, and just don't want to openly flaunt them. And Prester John has been responded to by a bunch of people spontaneously gathering to indignantly claim that this is an attack on all right-wingers.

I don't think "if you disagree with me you're one of the Bad Guys" is a very convincing line of defense.

Especially since some of the people disagreeing with you are (in this case especially) gay.

joat mon
Oct 15, 2009

I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.


Mercury_Storm posted:

I would agree if Prestor was saying conservatives are like this and conservatives are like that, but that's not what's happening. Prestor is specifically describing the much smaller subset of right-wing authoritarians, who are known for being some of the most intractable shitheads on the planet. These are the people who are the "loud minority" of conservatives who feel the need to throw a tantrum about every little thing or post on freerepublic.com

Yep, they probably number only 2 1/2 to 5 percent of the population...

Schizotek
Nov 8, 2011

I say, hey, listen to me!
Stay sane inside insanity!!!


Theres a difference between conservatives and the die hard crazies PJ grew up with and describes. I don't think anything he says applies to the generic college republican or white flight suburbanite. And the "generic description of human behavior" complaint is true and also irrelevant. Any description of any large groups behavior will just be a generic description of human interaction unless your talking about some commune of intentionally isolated people with mental illness.

And the capitalization thing people mentioned is just something schizos tend to do even when they aren't babbling about the CIA trying to assassinate them by slipping an empty Monster can underneath their brake pedal. It's "this represents a concept related to but not identical to this words textbook meaning, but I don't have a separate word for what I'm trying to describe so I'll turn it into a proper noun to distinguish that", as opposed to just trying to make it look scary. Normal people do it too but it's practically a schizophrenia trademark.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

Upload the shitposts directly into my brain!

computer parts posted:

I don't think "if you disagree with me you're one of the Bad Guys" is a very convincing line of defense.

Especially since some of the people disagreeing with you are (in this case especially) gay.

Good thing Prestor John isn't saying that?

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Who What Now posted:

Good thing Prestor John isn't saying that?

The person I quoted more or less did.

Political Whores
Feb 13, 2012



I just know that his description of an outer narrative that masks what a person truly believes and shifts to compensate for attacks against it is spot on for the fundie Christians I've talked to. Everything will be couched in terms of freedom of conscience and freedom of belief, but that's a lie hiding over their real beliefs.

E: for that matter, it also fits for quite a few hardcore leftwing people I know, only for them it's more getting away from claims to care about the well-being of people in general versus actually holding most of humanity in contempt.

Political Whores fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2015 around 23:25

Jarmak
Jan 24, 2005



Grundulum posted:

Cool. Got any links to such studies, like I asked for in the post you quoted? I would especially love to know if anyone has looked at the inner/outer narrative that Prester John described. You seem to know an awful lot more about this material than I do, so hopefully you can oblige.

Study into what exactly? That people argue for a position under false pretenses when they fear social sanction if their true values are known? Or hell for any number of reasons they wouldn't want their true desires known? Its not exactly mysterious behavior, nor is it very much different then a coworker arguing that the pizza place at the corner has the best pizza in town because he wants to go there and hit on the cute cashier but is embarrassed to actually say that.

Prester Jane
Nov 4, 2008


Schizotek posted:

Theres a difference between conservatives and the die hard crazies PJ grew up with and describes. I don't think anything he says applies to the generic college republican or white flight suburbanite. And the "generic description of human behavior" complaint is true and also irrelevant. Any description of any large groups behavior will just be a generic description of human interaction unless your talking about some commune of intentionally isolated people with mental illness.

And the capitalization thing people mentioned is just something schizos tend to do even when they aren't babbling about the CIA trying to assassinate them by slipping an empty Monster can underneath their brake pedal. It's "this represents a concept related to but not identical to this words textbook meaning, but I don't have a separate word for what I'm trying to describe so I'll turn it into a proper noun to distinguish that", as opposed to just trying to make it look scary. Normal people do it too but it's practically a schizophrenia trademark.

Thank you for this, this is a really good description. I'm not looking to really convince people nor do I want people to automatically agree with me. I am just trying to describe my viewpoint as best I can. I'm not really trying to make things sound scary or dehumanize the people I am describing. This is just how my brain works. I can't prove any description I give of how my mind works nor can much of my ideas be really tested in a proper way, and I fully admit that and want that understanding at the forefront of any discussion about my ideas. As I said before, this is like Mowgli blathering on about the motivations of Shere Khan. Altameyer is a real scientist. I am just some person with a mental illness giving my impression of things.

To my way of thinking I am trying to humanize Authoritarians if anything, by describing as best I can how I understand the mindset I was raised in. In alot of ways I am actually really happy that there are people who are rebuffed by my descriptions of things because to me that means they have never witnessed the ugliness first hand that I have. (Now I might be totally wrong on that, mind you, but it still gives me hope.)

Prester Jane fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2015 around 23:35

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009
I only want two things: new neck bones for Lowtax, and for you to shut the fuck up about pretending characters are lesbians to prove your wokeness.


Personally, I think there's a simpler explanation. Most people aren't comfortable with the idea that they think, believe, or feel bad things for a given standard of bad. Even most Freepers probably hate the idea of being racist, because racism is generally regarded as a bad thing in American society. So they come up with their own lenses to think about and express those things through. I'm not a racist, I'm a race realist. I don't think gently caress you got mine, I've simply earned my due. It's avoidance of losing face and being thought less of, and gets exacerbated in public.

Political Whores
Feb 13, 2012



Cythereal posted:

Personally, I think there's a simpler explanation. Most people aren't comfortable with the idea that they think, believe, or feel bad things for a given standard of bad. Even most Freepers probably hate the idea of being racist, because racism is generally regarded as a bad thing in American society. So they come up with their own lenses to think about and express those things through. I'm not a racist, I'm a race realist. I don't think gently caress you got mine, I've simply earned my due. It's avoidance of losing face and being thought less of, and gets exacerbated in public.

Yeah it seems to be identity protective cognition. It's still a pretty good way of articulating the divide between the two. And recognizing that the argument you're having isn't the one their having is important I think.

Political Whores fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2015 around 23:52

Freudian
Mar 23, 2011

God Can't Hate Forever


computer parts posted:

I don't think "if you disagree with me you're one of the Bad Guys" is a very convincing line of defense.

Especially since some of the people disagreeing with you are (in this case especially) gay.

Good for them, me too!

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009
I only want two things: new neck bones for Lowtax, and for you to shut the fuck up about pretending characters are lesbians to prove your wokeness.


Political Whores posted:

Yeah it seems to be identity protective cognition. It's still a pretty good way of articulating the divide between the two. And recognizing that the argument you're having isn't the one their having is important I think.

Prester Jane
Nov 4, 2008


A couple of things i would like to clarify here really quickly. To me, Authoritarians are not inherently right or left wing, which is why I choose the term Authoritarians rather than using Altameyer's term Right Wing Authoritarians. Often Authoritarians are discussed as if they were an extreme version of a right winger, and to me this is slightly inaccurate. It is my own personal conclusion that Authoritarians represent a totally different beast from right wingers, but owing to historical reasons, have become strongly associated with the right wing in this country. (Largely as a result of Movement Conservativism deliberately incorporating Fundamentalist Christians as a method of creating a lockstep voter bloc.) There have been historical left wing Authoritarian movements (many communist revolutions spring to mind) and though these are less common than right wing Authoritarian movements I suspect this may be more of a fluke of how history than anything else. Since the creation of the concept of political left and right during the Enlightenment there has by chance just been more right wing Authoritarian movements in the western world. (That said, I think there may be a case to be made that right leaning person's higher need for group acceptance makes them more susceptible to joining Authoritarian groups, but that is a really tentative hypothesis even for me.)

I am really not trying to dehumanize anybody. Authoritarians to me are as fully human and complex as anyone else. That said, they are perceiving the world and processing their experiences in ways that are very different from non-authoritarians. This does make them less to me, only different. When I try to describe these differences I am not trying to say "Hate these lesser fools" I am trying to say "Here is how this largely misunderstood group functions in a broad context".

Also in fairness it could be easily argued that I harbor some sort of deep seated loathing for Authoritarians that I cannot recognize. That is entirely possible. So in interest of full disclosure let me summarize where I am coming from for those who haven't read all my posts over the years.

I am a schizophrenic (full diagnosis Bi-Polar Type II Schizoaffective, PTSD, possible mild autism, depression) trans-woman (only recently out to myself) raised in a hardcore Authoritarian cult. I have only four years of proper education (High School) with the rest of my education being handled either directly at the cult or in home schooling under the supervision of the cult. My childhood was extremely painful and controlled. I did not have a social security number until I was 18 because social security numbers were the mark of the beast. I did not find out about the birds and the bees until two years after I entered puberty and was having erections. (I thought my erections where a curse from God for my impure thoughts and tried desperately to hide them). I have been involved in a variety of other cults and proto-cults in my adult life. I have also had the great fortune to be involved with some truly remorseless people that gave me an insight into just what humans will do to each other. (Many years ago I had a life insurance policy that named my business partner at the time as sole beneficiary, one of our mutual acquaintances repeatedly tried to pitch this business partner on killing me for the insurance money.)

Of interest I am sure to Jarmak (who may remember me) I was a Kyoon-esque poster on these forums many years ago. My forums name back then was Truckin A Man and I used to spray Ron Paul/9-11 Truth/Anti-Vaxxer insanity on these forums (and early LF) back around 2007. (I have previously owned up to this before in the Conspiracy thread.) I also spent many years under a complicated delusion where the voice of the biblical prophet Enoch was giving me instructions to prepare for the final war between Heaven and Hell. I based major life decisions on Enoch's instructions (what jobs to take, where to live, who to befriend, etc).

So yeah, take everything i say with a grain of salt. I am a crazy person. A self aware crazy person perhaps, but still a crazy person.

Prester Jane fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2015 around 01:52

Prester Jane
Nov 4, 2008


Allright, now I want to try and get into some stuff that builds on what I have thus far described, and in doing so I attempt to shed some light on what is widely regarded as a confusing chapter of recent American history, the Cliven Bundy Ranch showdown. First off I want to describe a character that appears in many variations of the Grand Narrative. For sake of simplicity I will label this character the "Anti-Christ.

The Anti-Christ: This character archetype is a near universal thread in many Outer Narratives, which is why I consider it to be a part of the Grand narrative. I want here to draw attention not to the popular Left Behind representation of the Anti-Christ, but to what this character represents. The Anti-Christ is a charismatic leader practically worshiped by his followers. The Anti-Christ always has a hidden agenda though, and is himself (almost always a male, curiously enough) merely a front man for a darker, organized, malevolent force. The Anti-Christ then is to be opposed at all times and at all costs, because whatever he is doing, no matter how seemingly benign, is always part of some larger plot designed to trick the masses into killing themselves.


Now we come to a really meaty concept, what I call "Narrative Convergence".


Narrative Convergence: When Authoritarians perceive a threat (which is often) their first instinct is to strike at the jugular with overwhelming force. It does not matter how insignificant the threat really is or how wide the gap in power between them and their target is, they want to hit a vital spot with every ounce of force they can muster. The goal is to establish dominance by firstly destroying the threat and any trace of it, and secondly, having witnesses so that other potential threats learn their place. Authoritarians are always look for a big dramatic battle, they are looking for every conflict to go down like the final battle of a Lord of the Rings trilogy. Fierce, fast, big, that is how an Authoritarian wants to fight every battle be it a swordfight or a debate.

With this in mind Authoritarians have been absolutely nonplussed with their steady losses in the culture wars. Despite their attempts to create cartoonish caricatures to fight with, they have found no real solid target to aim their aggression at. While the internal groupthink at this point is certainly strong enough that they all now agree that these devilish liberal strawmen exist, every time they try and go out looking for them they find very little. This is a bit like that robot planet on Futurama where the entire planet goes out hunting for humans every night and always comes back empty handed.

Distinctly aware that they are losing the culture wars but unable to get the big battle they inherently crave, the long term stress has lead many Authoritarians to do something unusual, seek allies.

Typically minor differences in the Outer Narrative are sufficient for an Authoritarian group/individual to reject associating with each other beyond what is minimally necessary. ( Obligatory Emo Phillips bit here.) However, the pressure of losing the culture wars has forced many Authoritarians to become more willing to compromise on elements of the Outer Narrative so long as the Grand Narrative remains intact. That is to say, in seeking to find common ground with each other (like any other group of people) Authoritarian groups have started to become more closely knit than seen in previous years, and the factor that unites them is the Grand Narrative. Whatever differences in Outer Narrative exist are slowly being discarded so long as the over-arching themes of the Grand Narrative are preserved. (The Compaction Cycle also plays a role here as Authoritarians that have been members of other groups often serve as bridges between various factions.)

In other words, the Outer Narrative's of many Authoritarian groups are converging on the themes of the Grand Narrative. (Thus my labeling this process "Narrative Convergence".)

The clearest example I can think of what I am trying to explain here is what has happened to Obama. We are all familiar with "Obama Derangement Syndrome" at this point, and I want to explain where this animus comes from. It isn't explicitly racist, although Obama's race certainly contributed greatly to the initial impulse that drove a previously slow process of Narrative Convergence into a rapid one. (If one recalls the way Authoritarians behaved during the Clinton Presidency I believe it is easy to see the momentum was already building, Obama's blackness merely accelerated an already ongoing process.)

Recall my earlier definition of the archetype of the Anti-Christ in the Grand Narrative: "The Anti-Christ is a charismatic leader practically worshiped by his followers. The Anti-Christ always has a hidden agenda though, and is himself (almost always a male, curiously enough) merely a front man for a darker, organized, malevolent force. The Anti-Christ then is to be opposed at all times and at all costs, because whatever he is doing, no matter how seemingly benign, is always part of some larger plot designed to trick the masses into killing themselves."

In short, as a result of Narrative Convergence, Obama has become the archetype of the Anti-Christ to a wide range of Authoritarian groups. This is how Obama can be a Commie/Muslim/Kenyan/Illuminatti/Marxist/Reptilian/ad infinitum trying to implement Sharia Law/Socialism/New World Order Population Reduction/ad infinitum all at the same time, and no Authoritarian bats an eye at the inherent contradictions of being all those contradictory things. Because all of those things and all of those agendas are part of the Archetype of what I call the Anti-Christ. To Authoritarians they are not contradictory, they are complimentary. (The minor differences in Outer Narrative are no longer important so long as the Grand narrative is preserved.) So to all Authoritarians, Obama has become a willing front man for a more sinister agenda. A Charismatic face for the purest, vilest of evils. As a result, every action Obama is taking must somehow be a plot and must be opposed at any cost. Authoritarians have so thoroughly convinced themselves of this fact at this point that they are now willing to die on each and every hill and take each and every battle to the bitter end, because they feel they must do so in order to survive.

With these ideas in mind, please watch this brief video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCc0rdZd0Ec

Next up, I will describe what I call "Convergence Breakthrough Events", or the phenomena of emotional outbursts where Inner Narrative's are temporarily abandoned in favor of the sudden emergence of a new Narrative Convergence, which is what I believe explains the Bundy Ranch affair.

Aleph Null
Jun 10, 2008

You look very stressed


Tortured By Flan

I was raised in a Southern Christian family and I am old enough to remember the anti-christ panic over Clinton quite vividly. Even had some talks about how Hilary was the anti-christ and Bill was just the false prophet.
What makes the furor over Obama worse? The reach of the Internet? The twenty-four hour news cycle?
Why do things seem to be spiralling out of control? Is it just the Inner Narrative leaking out that has been seething for years?

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

I hodl at your neck the gox jabbar




Aleph Null posted:

I was raised in a Southern Christian family and I am old enough to remember the anti-christ panic over Clinton quite vividly. Even had some talks about how Hilary was the anti-christ and Bill was just the false prophet.
What makes the furor over Obama worse? The reach of the Internet? The twenty-four hour news cycle?
Why do things seem to be spiralling out of control? Is it just the Inner Narrative leaking out that has been seething for years?

He's black.

e; I get why you have some problems with the descriptions here Jarmak, but like PJ expressed here, her description of authoritarians isn't aimed at the right-wing. Rather, how it's reading to me is this is the general operation playbook for what I guess would be ideological cults, those groups that want to impose their version of the world on others, regardless of the reality that actually exists. There are a ton of nominally liberal/progressive people I would include here, namely anyone supporting alt health and homeopathy. Prestor John is describing, from her experiences directly growing up within such a group, how people are taught to think, and in particular why facts, data and experience contradicting their worldview never serves to spark a reassessment, and why these groups tend to self-select for radicalization and adherence to the central dogma whatever that may be.

Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2015 around 05:24

AVeryLargeRadish
Aug 19, 2011

WolfDad is Best Dad.



That and also the Christian Right's repeated losses in the culture wars, particularly the advance of civil rights for LGBT groups. It's much like I imagine the advance of civil rights for blacks must have been in the 60s and 70s, except that back then the Christian Right and the Republicans were not as heavily intertwined and Right-wing Christians were not as heavily involved in politics as they are now. The LGBT rights movement happening right now and having Obama as president at the same time really brings both of these things together. The first black president is in charge while the Christian Right suffers yet another great loss in their culture war, to them it must look like some sort of long term plan by the insidious "Other" to destroy them.

Prester Jane
Nov 4, 2008


Aleph Null posted:

I was raised in a Southern Christian family and I am old enough to remember the anti-christ panic over Clinton quite vividly. Even had some talks about how Hilary was the anti-christ and Bill was just the false prophet.
What makes the furor over Obama worse? The reach of the Internet? The twenty-four hour news cycle?
Why do things seem to be spiralling out of control? Is it just the Inner Narrative leaking out that has been seething for years?

All of these things, in addition to a long term Narrative Convergence caused by desperation more than anything else. Also, this is mostly coming from Boomer Authoritarians, who lived their whole lives being told that the Apocalypse was going to be within their lifetime, and now they are much older and not really thinking about what sort of a planet they will leave behind to the next generation. I would argue that as a result of Movement Conservativism, the Boomer generation has never really been thinking about the next generation, and I would argue that an examination of Boomer political trends bears this out.

Boomer Authoritarians have lived their whole lives as if they were going to be the last people on Earth, and now they have an excuse to justify all those decades of selfishness. (At least the Fundie types.) If this were happening in a vacuum then fundies would still freak out about Gay Marriage (as it is literally the worst thing ever) but it would be limited in scope. Authoritarian groups have become much more connected now though, and worse, the Koch brothers have no problem in funding Authoritarian candidates, even though I do not believe they qualify as Authoritarians themselves.

The Koch brothers are an interesting facet of this. Their Father was one of the original founders of the John Birch Society. At one point the JBS had become very embarassing to be associated with publicly, and yet, they had shitloads of money they were willing to hurl at Canservative candidates. Bill Buckley and Barry Goldwater basically used the JBS to further their own political goals while using the machinery of the GOP to publicly tarnish the JBS because they were a liability to be associated with publicly. A genuine cold calculated smoke filled back room conspiracy, if you will. We know this, because Bill Buckley wrote a tell all about it decades later.

William F. Buckley Jr posted:


In the early months of l962, there was restiveness in certain political quarters of the Right. The concern was primarily the growing strength of the Soviet Union, and the reiteration by its leaders of their designs on the free world. Some of the actors keenly concerned felt that Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona was a natural leader in the days ahead.

But it seemed inconceivable that an anti-establishment gadfly like Goldwater could be nominated as the spokesman-head of a political party. And it was embarrassing that the only political organization in town that dared suggest this radical proposal—the GOP’s nominating Goldwater for President—was the John Birch Society.


........


In January of that year I had a telephone call from William Baroody. It was, he said, a matter of great national importance that I spend Tuesday and Wednesday of the following week with Senator Goldwater in Palm Beach, Florida. I would be one of three—along with Russell Kirk, the philosopher and author of the seminal 1953 text The Conservative Mind, and public-relations man Jay Hall, who had represented General Motors in Washington. I said I could be there up until 5 p.m. on day one and all of day two. I had a speaking date in St. Augustine on the first night. Baroody simply repeated that the meeting was very important.

Baroody was the head of the American Enterprise Institute, a right-wing think tank founded in 1943. We had met only cursorily, though I knew him to be an influential figure in behind-the-scenes conservative politics. He was invigorated by meetings with small groups, which he much enjoyed dominating. It was clear that he greatly aspired to be important to Goldwater, and perhaps to a Goldwater White House.




........


Moving on, Baroody brought up the John Birch Society. It was quickly obvious that this was the subject Goldwater wished counsel on.

Kirk, unimpeded by his little professorial stutter, greeted the subject with fervor. It was his opinion, he said emphatically, that Robert Welch was a man disconnected from reality. How could anyone reason, as Welch had done in The Politician, that President Eisenhower had been a secret agent of the Communists? This mischievous unreality was a great weight on the back of responsible conservative political thinking. The John Birch Society should be renounced by Goldwater and by everyone else—Kirk turned his eyes on me—with any influence on the conservative movement.

But that, Goldwater said, is the problem. Consider this, he exaggerated: “Every other person in Phoenix is a member of the John Birch Society. Russell, I’m not talking about Commie-haunted apple pickers or cactus drunks, I’m talking about the highest cast of men of affairs. Any of you know who Frank Cullen Brophy is?”

I raised my hand. “I spent a lot of time with him. He was going to contribute capital to help found National Review. He didn’t.” Brophy was a prominent Arizona banker.

Goldwater said he knew nothing about that, but added that Brophy certainly was aware of Goldwater’s personal enthusiasm for the magazine and especially for its Washington editor, Brent Bozell. “Why isn’t Brent here?” he turned to Baroody.

“He’s in Spain.”

“Well, our—my—Conscience of a Conservative continues to sell.” Bozell, who was also my brother-in-law, had ghostwritten the book, which had given Goldwater a national profile.

Kirk said he could not imagine Bozell disagreeing on the need to excommunicate the John Birch Society from the conservative movement.

But this brought another groan from Goldwater. “You just can’t do that kind of thing in Arizona. For instance, who on earth can dismiss Frank Brophy from anything?[

Time was given to the John Birch Society lasting through lunch, and the subject came up again the next morning. We resolved that conservative leaders should do something about the John Birch Society. An allocation of responsibilities crystallized.

Goldwater would seek out an opportunity to dissociate himself from the “findings” of the Society’s leader, without, however, casting any aspersions on the Society itself. I, in National Review and in my other writing, would continue to expose Welch and his thinking to scorn and derision. “You know how to do that,” said Jay Hall.

I volunteered to go further. Unless Welch himself disowned his operative fallacy, National Review would oppose any support for the society.

Basically this all started to happen once before, but Bill Buckley and Barry Goldwater were successful in fighting it off through back channels. This time the GOP is not organized enough to fight this off, so instead they tried to hold on and steer this beast. They have loving failed hard.

Prester Jane fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2015 around 05:33

Prester Jane
Nov 4, 2008


Another factor is that there are simply more people raised in hardcore Authoritarian environments than there was in the past, and there has been a 4 decade long effort to deliberately mix Fundie politics with authoritarianism. The A.C.E. (Accelerated Christian Education) curriculum system for example was a direct outgrowth of what has been referred to as the "Church-Birch Nexus", or the intersection of Conservative politics, wealthy conspiracy minded authoritarians, and Fundamentalist Christians. I was raised in a cult that used A.C.E. Here is an actual promotional video that they put out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBUw4iWepk0


Here are some examples of my actual workbooks from the cult school.





















It is my conclusion that the GOP really had no loving idea what it was doing by trying to bring Fundamentalists onboard as a reliable voting bloc, and have now been consumed by their own Frankenstein. We are just witnessing the chickens of half a century's worth of propaganda coming home to roost.(Frankly, the Founders deserve more credit than they often get for designing a system that has held up as well as it has all things considered.)

Prester Jane fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2015 around 06:00

Grognan
Jan 23, 2007

Money And Power Through Homicide!



Although this does probably overreach the intent of this thread, thank you for putting forward the effort and work to post this.

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

THE HORROR
THE HORROR



Prester John posted:

I am a schizophrenic (full diagnosis Bi-Polar Type II Schizoaffective, PTSD, possible mild autism, depression) trans-woman (only recently out to myself) raised in a hardcore Authoritarian cult. I have only four years of proper education (High School) with the rest of my education being handled either directly at the cult or in home schooling under the supervision of the cult. My childhood was extremely painful and controlled. I did not have a social security number until I was 18 because social security numbers were the mark of the beast. I did not find out about the birds and the bees until two years after I entered puberty and was having erections. (I thought my erections where a curse from God for my impure thoughts and tried desperately to hide them). I have been involved in a variety of other cults and proto-cults in my adult life. I have also had the great fortune to be involved with some truly remorseless people that gave me an insight into just what humans will do to each other. (Many years ago I had a life insurance policy that named my business partner at the time as sole beneficiary, one of our mutual acquaintances repeatedly tried to pitch this business partner on killing me for the insurance money.)

Of interest I am sure to Jarmak (who may remember me) I was a Kyoon-esque poster on these forums many years ago. My forums name back then was Truckin A Man and I used to spray Ron Paul/9-11 Truth/Anti-Vaxxer insanity on these forums (and early LF) back around 2007. (I have previously owned up to this before in the Conspiracy thread.) I also spent many years under a complicated delusion where the voice of the biblical prophet Enoch was giving me instructions to prepare for the final war between Heaven and Hell. I based major life decisions on Enoch's instructions (what jobs to take, where to live, who to befriend, etc).

So yeah, take everything i say with a grain of salt. I am a crazy person. A self aware crazy person perhaps, but still a crazy person.

This just made me incredibly sad and I have a massive urge to give you a big hug right now in whatever way I can friend

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002


while I appreciate Prester John's effort posts, if you want to psychoanalyze your political opponents please do so in another thread and preferably in another forum because it's generally a terrible thread when people sit around and determine what mental defects people who disagree with them have

Aleph Null
Jun 10, 2008

You look very stressed


Tortured By Flan

evilweasel posted:

while I appreciate Prester John's effort posts, if you want to psychoanalyze your political opponents please do so in another thread and preferably in another forum because it's generally a terrible thread when people sit around and determine what mental defects people who disagree with them have

I agree that this isn't the best thread, but people with Authoritarian Personalities do not have mental defects. My mom and dad and aunts and uncle are not mentally defective. They were raised as I was but without the birth of the Internet to let them explore other opinions while still young enough to change. By the time they reach adulthood, they are actively avoiding other viewpoints.
Hell, I avoid the stuff I was raised on because now it just make me angry and sad. That is not a mental illness.

Edit: as an LGBT person, some of my family would rather pretend I don't exist than admit that people like me aren't the abominations they've been led to believe in.

Aleph Null fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2015 around 17:09

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


evilweasel posted:

while I appreciate Prester John's effort posts, if you want to psychoanalyze your political opponents please do so in another thread and preferably in another forum because it's generally a terrible thread when people sit around and determine what mental defects people who disagree with them have

While I generally agree, "disagreement" is a rather polite way of describing it when many of these people want gays either imprisoned or sent to conversion therapy camps, or at the very least given a heavy social stigma. I'd say anyone who wishes such harm on people who have a different belief system than them have some issues.

AVeryLargeRadish
Aug 19, 2011

WolfDad is Best Dad.


evilweasel posted:

while I appreciate Prester John's effort posts, if you want to psychoanalyze your political opponents please do so in another thread and preferably in another forum because it's generally a terrible thread when people sit around and determine what mental defects people who disagree with them have

So are you saying that Prester John's experiences, their upbringing and so on, are invalid and they are not to talk about their views of what anti-gay movements are likely to do in the future based on their past experiences?

Set out some guidelines so we know what we are allowed to say in this thread please.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

Upload the shitposts directly into my brain!

AVeryLargeRadish posted:

So are you saying that Prester John's experiences, their upbringing and so on, are invalid and they are not to talk about their views of what anti-gay movements are likely to do in the future based on their past experiences?

Set out some guidelines so we know what we are allowed to say in this thread please.

Yeah, I honestly don't see the problem with what PrestorJohn is doing. She's been quite clear in my eyes that she's talking about some very small and specific but very real groups who happen to be some of the most open and loud anti-gay advocates. I don't understand how people keep misinterpreting what she's saying as if it applies to every single right-leaning or anti-gay person on the planet. And pretending like people PJ is describing don't exist and are only fictitious bogeymen seems way more harmful than being slightly derisive in a discussion about them.

Blue Footed Booby
Oct 4, 2006

got those happy feet




Slippery Tilde

evilweasel posted:

while I appreciate Prester John's effort posts, if you want to psychoanalyze your political opponents please do so in another thread and preferably in another forum because it's generally a terrible thread when people sit around and determine what mental defects people who disagree with them have

What board would it go on if not this one? I have a hard time imagining the discussing being more constructive in, say, GBS. Or did you mean other than SA?

I really don't intend this as backtalk, but if you think PJ is saying that the people he describes have literal mental defects you might have misread.

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

I hodl at your neck the gox jabbar




Blue Footed Booby posted:

What board would it go on if not this one? I have a hard time imagining the discussing being more constructive in, say, GBS. Or did you mean other than SA?

I really don't intend this as backtalk, but if you think PJ is saying that the people he describes have literal mental defects you might have misread.

it reads more to me like how MLM are discussed, the way certain organizations and groups reinforce patterns of behaviors in their membership.

twodot
Aug 7, 2005
A CLIP AND A MAGAZINE ARE THE SAME THING DUMBASS


Who What Now posted:

Yeah, I honestly don't see the problem with what PrestorJohn is doing. She's been quite clear in my eyes that she's talking about some very small and specific but very real groups who happen to be some of the most open and loud anti-gay advocates.
I don't agree at all:

Prester John posted:

It is my conclusion that the GOP really had no loving idea what it was doing by trying to bring Fundamentalists onboard as a reliable voting bloc, and have now been consumed by their own Frankenstein. We are just witnessing the chickens of half a century's worth of propaganda coming home to roost.(Frankly, the Founders deserve more credit than they often get for designing a system that has held up as well as it has all things considered.)
A discussion of a niche group's views and motivations could be interesting, but I don't see why it would have anything to do with marriage equality. A discussion of a not-actually-niche group's domination of a major political party would be relevant, but should require more than personal anecdotes and speculation.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005



Nap Ghost

[Ask] me about being raised in a cult so crazy I chopped off my dick. Welcome to Christian America!

Aleph Null
Jun 10, 2008

You look very stressed


Tortured By Flan

twodot posted:

I don't see why it would have anything to do with marriage equality.

This is why it should have its own thread.

Mercury_Storm
Jun 12, 2003

*chomp chomp chomp*


Mr. Nice! posted:

[Ask] me about being raised in a cult so crazy I chopped off my dick. Welcome to Christian America!

You've got to be kidding me.

Prester Jane
Nov 4, 2008


Since this is distracting from the main thrust of this thread, if there is enough interest I'll start this in its own separate thread. I'll leave it up to you guys, if you feel it merits its own thread I will make one.


That said, I feel its not totally offtopic considering this was part of Ted Cruz's Presidential Announcement today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSoqr--BaOw


While Ted Cruz is a joke candidate, by going full open bigot so early I feel he has made it highly likely that my prediction that Gay Marriage will become a Conservative Litmus test during the primaries will turn out true.

AVeryLargeRadish
Aug 19, 2011

WolfDad is Best Dad.


twodot posted:

A discussion of a niche group's views and motivations could be interesting, but I don't see why it would have anything to do with marriage equality.

That niche group is the core of the anti-gay movement, and by extension the anti marriage equality movement. Is discussion of the opponents of marriage equality not a subject to be discussed in the marriage equality thread?

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Prester John posted:

While Ted Cruz is a joke candidate, by going full open bigot so early I feel he has made it highly likely that my prediction that Gay Marriage will become a Conservative Litmus test during the primaries will turn out true.
I guess so, but won't the Supreme Court decision this summer kinda finish the debate (legally speaking, I mean. I know people have been fighting Roe v. Wade for decades)? Are they going to campaign on some sort of override to a Supreme Court ruling or just say that they'll try to gum up the works with so many religious freedom laws that it'll be harder for gay people to access common services?

twodot
Aug 7, 2005
A CLIP AND A MAGAZINE ARE THE SAME THING DUMBASS


AVeryLargeRadish posted:

That niche group is the core of the anti-gay movement, and by extension the anti marriage equality movement. Is discussion of the opponents of marriage equality not a subject to be discussed in the marriage equality thread?
What does it mean to be the "core" of the anti-gay movement? We've established that we're talking about a "very small" group, so it can't be that they are a large portion of the movement. This rhetoric is pretty clearly trying to have its cake and eat it too. We're talking about a very specific group of people that a random forums poster has personal experience with, yet are also somehow relevant on the national level.
edit:
To be clear, yes Prester John's experiences are invalid when discussing how a national movement with no individual leadership operates.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

Upload the shitposts directly into my brain!

twodot posted:

What does it mean to be the "core" of the anti-gay movement? We've established that we're talking about a "very small" group, so it can't be that they are a large portion of the movement. This rhetoric is pretty clearly trying to have its cake and eat it too. We're talking about a very specific group of people that a random forums poster has personal experience with, yet are also somehow relevant on the national level.

You don't have to be large to dominate the national conversation. The tea party also isn't very large, so obviously they aren't ever worth talking about when discussing right-wing politics, right? ISIS is also pretty tiny, best to just ignore them because they aren't relevant to anything at all.

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Sharkie
Feb 4, 2013

Something looks fishy.



JazzFlight posted:

I guess so, but won't the Supreme Court decision this summer kinda finish the debate (legally speaking, I mean. I know people have been fighting Roe v. Wade for decades)? Are they going to campaign on some sort of override to a Supreme Court ruling or just say that they'll try to gum up the works with so many religious freedom laws that it'll be harder for gay people to access common services?

I'm guessing Idaho and Alabama are good examples. And with regard to Roe vs. Wade, there's been a lot of progress in chipping away at abortion access at the state level, so to answer your question, almost certainly both. The number of people that will gracefully accept defeat after the Supreme Court ruling is probably smaller and quieter than the people that will ramp up the rhetoric, for reasons that have been discussed in this thread.

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