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pipes!
Jul 10, 2001


Nap Ghost

Defenestration posted:

Pipes, what are your thoughts on some outreach?

Honestly, it would be a drama shitstorm. Not sure if I'm ready to rock that particular boat quite yet.

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RGBRIOT
Apr 19, 2009

"Beauty, packaged for a digital world."


Authentic You posted:

This is great. I especially like the comparisons to other industries. I'd really love to see it posted in SA-Mart or otherwise see SA-Mart raise awareness of the shittiness of design spec work. I've been trying to pick up small projects (since my job is going to poo poo), and I think, 'Hey, I could do a great website banner for that price so let me link my portfolio and.. oh, it's another loving contest..'

I avoid design contests out of principle, which limits the work I can do through SA for goons (and elsewhere online) because most calls for design work are contests rather than the buyer directly soliciting designers and choosing a designer to work with.

It's a hard thing to argue with buyers over. By that I mean as much as we might inform people that 'hey you're kind of taking advantage of designers by doing this' they hear 'free free free / cheap cheap cheap!'. Now to be fair if every designer went on spec work strike this method would die out pretty fast, but that's wishful thinking. Some people need the work, ANY work, and welcome even just the chance at making a few $$$ and the rest have a variety of reasons for doing work that's generally not in their best interest anyway. Personally I use my entries as free advertisement and portfolio padding, but even then I know in the back of my mind that I and my competitors would be better off in the long run if we didn't follow these types of offers.

Unfortunately until you're established and have a bit of a customer base, it's very difficult to see past the next spec thread, to care about the industry as a whole when an immediate profit is to be (possibly) had. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I agree whole heartily, short of a rule revision this atmosphere isn't going to change in SAMart. When people can get free multiple submissions (final drafts no less?!) for dirt cheap why would they care about the other side of the screen...the people making those cheap submissions?

Keep fighting the good fight though I wish this sentiment nothing but the best success and I too hope to eventually reach a point where I can completely forgo spec work entirely. Right now it just isn't in the cards for me and several others.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001



One of the biggest problems with design is that, almost by definition, laypersons literally can't tell the difference between getting "a logo" crowdsourced for $50 that sucks and getting a whole identity that will be versatile enough to work in all the situations they need it in. I think some of this has to do with a lot of designers not having a good understanding of what they need to sell when a client asks "I need a logo," and as long as designers go along with just making a logo the situation won't improve.

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006


College Slice

pipes! posted:

Honestly, it would be a drama shitstorm. Not sure if I'm ready to rock that particular boat quite yet.

If nothing else you should have a long hard talk with your fellow mods about this. I'm not in the industry in the slightest and I would have no clue about these issues unless I was reading an industry specific thread about it. It's clear that folks are being taken advantage of, and the least we can do is make sure it isn't blatantly happening here as well.

When I do my work I get paid, I don't see why it should be different for anyone else.

If nothing else, get rid of the "contest - I NEED A LOGO" sales.

RGBRIOT
Apr 19, 2009

"Beauty, packaged for a digital world."


Solkanar512 posted:

If nothing else, get rid of the "contest - I NEED A LOGO" sales.

Oh man some people would be so pissed if this happened!

Authentic You
Mar 4, 2007

Listen now this is your
captain calling:
Your captain is dead.


RGBRIOT posted:

It's a hard thing to argue with buyers over. By that I mean as much as we might inform people that 'hey you're kind of taking advantage of designers by doing this' they hear 'free free free / cheap cheap cheap!'. Now to be fair if every designer went on spec work strike this method would die out pretty fast, but that's wishful thinking. Some people need the work, ANY work, and welcome even just the chance at making a few $$$ and the rest have a variety of reasons for doing work that's generally not in their best interest anyway. Personally I use my entries as free advertisement and portfolio padding, but even then I know in the back of my mind that I and my competitors would be better off in the long run if we didn't follow these types of offers.

Unfortunately until you're established and have a bit of a customer base, it's very difficult to see past the next spec thread, to care about the industry as a whole when an immediate profit is to be (possibly) had. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I agree whole heartily, short of a rule revision this atmosphere isn't going to change in SAMart. When people can get free multiple submissions (final drafts no less?!) for dirt cheap why would they care about the other side of the screen...the people making those cheap submissions?

Keep fighting the good fight though I wish this sentiment nothing but the best success and I too hope to eventually reach a point where I can completely forgo spec work entirely. Right now it just isn't in the cards for me and several others.

Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. It's not something that could be fixed easily. But I think my main issue with it isn't so much designers missing out on money for their work, it's that everyone creating the spec jobs is having their conception of how much design is worth (not a lot) continually reinforced. That's the really damaging aspect of it.

It just really sucks that designers trying to make a few bucks by entering in these contests are also aiding the devaluation of their work and industry.

I have way less of an issue with high-paying contests (which I'd probably enter myself because oh god I need money), because in those cases, the devaluing aspect of the contest goes away and the winning designer is actually compensated fairly. I really hate the contests where the holder has no idea how much he should be paying for design ($15? $20?) and the designers (who I can mostly sympathize with because they need the cash) show the holder that yes, the design work he wants can be had for $15.

quirex posted:

One of the biggest problems with design is that, almost by definition, laypersons literally can't tell the difference between getting "a logo" crowdsourced for $50 that sucks and getting a whole identity that will be versatile enough to work in all the situations they need it in. I think some of this has to do with a lot of designers not having a good understanding of what they need to sell when a client asks "I need a logo," and as long as designers go along with just making a logo the situation won't improve.
I've had massive issues with this, and not just freelancing gigs but when I was in house. A previous boss could not figure out why I became concerned with him slapping our awesome new company logo on his ugly marketing brochures he made himself without telling me. Uh, I just spent several months researching, designing, and implementing a new corporate identity and you are taking us right back to square one cheapening the logo by stamping it on ugly poo poo. I did not make 'a logo' for everyone to slap willy nilly on their MS Publisher crap, I made a visual identity for the company that needs to be taken at least somewhat seriously. Gah.

seakindliness
Apr 23, 2009


I did one logo contest for SA Mart just to see how it was and found the rush, the lack of available communication, and the offered cash to be really unsatisfying even though the money wasn't really a big deal for me. In the end, I was really unhappy with my entry because I could have done a lot better with more time and more face-to-face discussions with the company.

The other problem with spec work (aside from the devaluing of design and designers) is the lack of time and lack of client involvement. These design contests are up for a couple of weeks and then the buyer picks one and pays out for it. Sometimes the buyer gives feedback on what he or she likes about one design over another, but it's no replacement for working one-on-one and exchanging ideas to come up with a good, long-term solution that works across various mediums. I mostly just hate seeing designers not getting paid fairly for what their work is worth though.

the kawaiiest
Dec 22, 2010

Uguuuu ~


It's not just a problem for designers. Illustrators have the exact same problem, and that paired with people underpricing their art and the sheer amount of kids just tracing photos and selling the resulting images for cheap to people who can't tell that they're being ripped off causes all sorts of issues. How can I compete with someone who's selling their art for five bucks? I have to pay rent and eat, and it's getting increasingly harder to make money as an artist. Everyone expects me to do spec or charge as little as XxbunnychanxX or whatever on deviantart. It feels like a lost cause.

Beat.
Nov 22, 2003

Hey, baby, wanna come up and see my etchings?


the kawaiiest posted:

It's not just a problem for designers. Illustrators have the exact same problem, and that paired with people underpricing their art and the sheer amount of kids just tracing photos and selling the resulting images for cheap to people who can't tell that they're being ripped off causes all sorts of issues. How can I compete with someone who's selling their art for five bucks? I have to pay rent and eat, and it's getting increasingly harder to make money as an artist. Everyone expects me to do spec or charge as little as XxbunnychanxX or whatever on deviantart. It feels like a lost cause.

This, and all the other variants of it in this thread, boil down to one basic thing, which is that the business background of creative people is generally really lacking.

First of all, setting yourself up to compete with "XXBunnyChanXX" is a lost cause. If that's what you're trying to do, you're operating in the wrong market. If you're trying to make a living wage of the Something Awful for sale forums, you're in the wrong place. You are not only wasting your time complaining about it, it demonstrates that at a fundamental level you are on the wrong track.

All of the successful creative people I know, be they artists, designers, whatever, have a few things in common. One of them is that they price and sell work at a consistent level. That amount can vary over time, but they have a good idea of what they're willing to sell work for, and they make work to sell it at that price. Most of the artists I know have built up a client base over time and worked a second job to supplement their income while working OR they came out of a prestigious (the key being prestige, and these programs all required a significant amount of life experience going into them) MFA program that plugged them into solid jobs coming out of school.

What I'm saying here is that they spent a lot of time not just working, but building their personal networks AND making work that was a consistent level of quality.

The internet can be good for some things, but excluding web design and things that are centered around the information economy, the bulk of creatives I know spent a lot of time out there in the real world grinding to get business. And it never, ever ends. Even people I know who are successful go through dry periods where their poo poo just isn't selling, they just make more money when it does sell. That is the nature of the business.

The point here is, before you start bitching about people selling lovely art take a bit of time and consider whether or not competing with them is worth your time, and if your work really is good enough to be sold elsewhere. If it is, then you should probably find a way to do that. At some point you will have to get into the real world and interact with people in order to make sales, and your personality and reliability will play a much greater role in how successful you are than the quality of your work, at least in the beginning. It's who you know and who you blow. In any area of business you find that, creative fields are no exception. Show me any famous artist who didn't get a few breaks by meeting the right people and establishing relationships with them.

Another thing I will say is that geography plays a huge difference. Some places it is a lot easier to get a start in creative fields if you have the drive to do it - interning at companies, volunteering at museums or other creative organizations, selling your work at mid-range cafe's, etc. If you live in the middle of Omaha you're gonna have a lot worse time than if you live in a metropolitan area with an established art scene. If making a living at this is your goal, you may want to reconsider where you live if those opportunities are not available to you where you are right now.

the kawaiiest
Dec 22, 2010

Uguuuu ~


Beat. posted:

This, and all the other variants of it in this thread, boil down to one basic thing, which is that the business background of creative people is generally really lacking.

First of all, setting yourself up to compete with "XXBunnyChanXX" is a lost cause. If that's what you're trying to do, you're operating in the wrong market. If you're trying to make a living wage of the Something Awful for sale forums, you're in the wrong place. You are not only wasting your time complaining about it, it demonstrates that at a fundamental level you are on the wrong track.

[snip]
Well, I just got here about a year ago, but in Brazil where I'm from people are in fact hiring XxBunnyChanxX and they are also searching for artists on oDesk and paying 16 year olds to trace photos/other people's work and so on because it's cheaper or in some cases, even free. I had given up completely when I was there, as even the people I knew who were professionals and much more experienced/skilled than me were having problems finding work. Many had quit and started doing something else for a living, including a close friend of mine who had 20 years of experience as a professional illustrator.

I'm still working out the logistics of going to art school in the US (and by "logistics" I mean I need to grow a pair and just go get a loan), so I don't really know anyone here and haven't really tried to work as an artist yet. I was under the impression that things weren't that different here, but you are obviously more knowledgeable than me and I appreciate you clearing that up. Your post gives me hope that maybe I'll be able to do this after all, and I just might go ahead and get a loan so I can go to school and give myself the best possible chance.

e: just realized you're Beat. I PM'd you last year about art schools and whatnot, thanks again for all the info, it was really helpful.

teepee
Mar 10, 2004

I couldn't cope if you crashed today

I'm sure this is a ridiculous question, but I've made my first sale and the publisher sent me a contract to sign over email. Everything looks good, but as I've never done this before, I was wondering if it's better to sign & send it back via email or to do it snail mail. (Publisher's okay with either.) The contract itself isn't the issue, I just get cross-eyed at the thought of sending my SSN over email, because I'm paranoid as gently caress. Anybody go through this before and want to hold my hand?

Chitin
Apr 29, 2007

It is no sign of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

teepee posted:

I'm sure this is a ridiculous question, but I've made my first sale and the publisher sent me a contract to sign over email. Everything looks good, but as I've never done this before, I was wondering if it's better to sign & send it back via email or to do it snail mail. (Publisher's okay with either.) The contract itself isn't the issue, I just get cross-eyed at the thought of sending my SSN over email, because I'm paranoid as gently caress. Anybody go through this before and want to hold my hand?

I would say you're in more danger from the various administrative assistants and interns that would see your ssn than you are from having it in your email, especially if it's handwritten and scanned.

teepee
Mar 10, 2004

I couldn't cope if you crashed today

That makes a reasonable amount of sense. I'll just stop acting like a jackass and email it back. Thanks!

Blinky13
Apr 24, 2008


teepee posted:

That makes a reasonable amount of sense. I'll just stop acting like a jackass and email it back. Thanks!

You need to get an EIN (Employer ID Number). It'll help keep your SSN secure.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small...=98350,00.html/

Defenestration
Aug 10, 2006

"It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"



Grimey Drawer

teepee posted:

I'm sure this is a ridiculous question, but I've made my first sale and the publisher sent me a contract to sign over email. Everything looks good, but as I've never done this before, I was wondering if it's better to sign & send it back via email or to do it snail mail. (Publisher's okay with either.) The contract itself isn't the issue, I just get cross-eyed at the thought of sending my SSN over email, because I'm paranoid as gently caress. Anybody go through this before and want to hold my hand?
Congratulations! What did you sell? (I hope they gave you a fair rate)

teepee
Mar 10, 2004

I couldn't cope if you crashed today

Blinky13 posted:

You need to get an EIN (Employer ID Number). It'll help keep your SSN secure.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small...=98350,00.html/

Sorry, do you mean I should get one because I should file as self-employed, or ask for the publisher's EIN?

quote:

Congratulations! What did you sell? (I hope they gave you a fair rate)

Thanks so much! Nothing big, just a short story for an anthology of YA science fiction. The pay is a one-time deal at time of publication, no royalties. I've never really submitted or sold anything before, though, so I'm pretty excited.


edit: VVV thanks a bunch for clarifying and the nice words!!

teepee fucked around with this message at Jul 20, 2012 around 18:35

Chitin
Apr 29, 2007

It is no sign of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

teepee posted:

Sorry, do you mean I should get one because I should file as self-employed, or ask for the publisher's EIN?

He's saying you should incorporate, which is favorable in a lot of ways tax- and liability-wise as well, though if this is a one-time thing it might not be worth the filing fee until you're making a few sales a year.

Also, congratulations! Getting published is a big deal, no matter where - it's a big milestone to have crossed!

Blinky13
Apr 24, 2008


teepee posted:

Sorry, do you mean I should get one because I should file as self-employed, or ask for the publisher's EIN?

It's a number the IRS issues for free. It's just another identification number, and if you're doing your business freelance over the internet, it'll protect your SSN.

Monstera
Apr 16, 2012


Awesome, awesome post! I know this sounds bad, but it's encouraging to see creatives in USA having the same issues I'm having in Australia. Creatives here often work for free or nearly free because 'there's no market here.' It's good reinforcement for me to see that it doesn't matter how big the market is, people still undervalue and try to stiff creatives. Things I've learnt over the past year: ALWAYS have a contract, especially for smaller jobs; the less someone pays the less they respect you and value your work; if someone tries to talk you into lowering your price, immediately tell them to go elsewhere, as guaranteed they are going to be difficult, and value your abilities first!!

If you're doing it well, you deserve payment. It's pretty simple, so don't let anyone undermine your confidence so that they can have an extra bit of cash to pocket for themselves.

SleeplessInEngland
May 30, 2011


I know this is a 'how long is a piece of string' question but it's regarding payment! I'm in the UK & I just got an ongoing freelance contract type thing with a company I used to work in house for. I just gave them a quote for my first 'official' freelance piece for them since I left the company & I think I might have seriously lowballed myself

The job is for 2 labels for a new range of easter chocolates & it's pretty illustration heavy. I've charged them £100 for the whole job & up to 5 sets of amendments which roughly works out to about £6.50 an hour just to draw up the pieces & doesn't allow any leeway for the amendments. If they go over their allotted number of amendments I've said that I'll charge £15 per set of amends.

Have I completely screwed myself over? How do you accurately work out how much to charge someone? I have never done a quote before this.

seakindliness
Apr 23, 2009


SleeplessInEngland posted:

I know this is a 'how long is a piece of string' question but it's regarding payment! I'm in the UK & I just got an ongoing freelance contract type thing with a company I used to work in house for. I just gave them a quote for my first 'official' freelance piece for them since I left the company & I think I might have seriously lowballed myself

The job is for 2 labels for a new range of easter chocolates & it's pretty illustration heavy. I've charged them £100 for the whole job & up to 5 sets of amendments which roughly works out to about £6.50 an hour just to draw up the pieces & doesn't allow any leeway for the amendments. If they go over their allotted number of amendments I've said that I'll charge £15 per set of amends.

Have I completely screwed myself over? How do you accurately work out how much to charge someone? I have never done a quote before this.

I don't think there's an exact science or even a reasonably accurate way to quote prices and it all depends on a bunch of factors including how long this job might take you, if this is your chief source of income, where you live, and who knows what else.

The way I quote prices for clients is to roll all of my operating expenses for the duration of the work into a sum then charge what my work is worth on top of that depending on how long I estimate it'll take me. How much my work is worth is never a set value, but it is always something I feel I can live on depending on how long the project would take. For example, I might charge a client $4000 for a project if the project will take me a month and I will be working full time on it. Maybe half of that cost is business operating expenses. The remaining $2000 should be enough money for me to pay my mortgage, pay my bills, buy my groceries, etc.

The fact is, you will make mistakes when you haven't done something on your own before and all you can do is shrug, learn and move on. If you feel you've lowballed yourself this time then take a note of it and try pricing higher next time.

Don't feel too bad if you think you hosed up. I got my first client during my first year in college. A company needed me to design and develop a website on the (back then) relatively unknown Drupal CMS. I should have charged them $10000 for it. But I charged them $1000. I was an idiot, but I learned.

SleeplessInEngland
May 30, 2011


Thanks for that! It's helpful hearing how other people work out how much to charge because I haven't a clue! I've read this thread top to bottom to get an idea of how to do things freelance & not get shafted but it still feels like a bloody minefield when I'm working out quotes. It's comforting to know that even experienced people did work too cheaply when they first started out, though!

Just another question but is it lovely to wait until you've got a response on whether they'll pay how much you're asking before you start doing work? I sent the client an email on Tuesday, letting them know it'd take roughly a week to do their labels & how much I wanted as payment as well as my stipulations. Problem is, it's now late Thursday, they still haven't got back to me to agree the price & I'm running out of time to get the work finished. I've sent them a 2nd email, telling them I can't work on their pieces until they agree to my price & stipulations (Which I think is reasonable) but I'm not sure if I was a little hasty.

RGBRIOT
Apr 19, 2009

"Beauty, packaged for a digital world."


As long as you weren't unprofessional in your correspondence most clients will understand that your time is finite and needs to be planned ahead. The ones who don't are probably going to be difficult to work with.

A couple of things for your consideration:

- Don't ever start work on something before agreement of terms has been set, preferably in some sort of contract. There are sites that can help you draft and sign digital contracts to avoid the turn around time of mailing and receiving physical copies. The only time in my opinion where work before agreement of terms might be acceptable is if you can use that work else where should things fall through. Your portfolio, generic design you can shop around to other similar business's, etc.

- Don't deviate from the agreement terms. If your client wants you to do so, insist on rewriting the agreement/contract. Agreements/Contracts are for both parties protection. If a client takes issue with this, they're probably not some one with whom you want to work.

- Never work for (just) royalties/shares. NEVER. While on the surface it might seem like a good idea the reality is that 99/100 times you're working for free and will never see a single cent. It's an amateur offer for people to extend to designers and underscores their inexperience or outright desire to swindle.

- To go along with monetary quotes, keep in mind our business is all about time management. Be sure to quote time frames that are longer than you expect the project to take. Think it's something you can do in a few days? Say a week. That way when your client takes days to get back to you, or you realize you have to do a major refinement, or you eat bad clams and end up with a ridiculous case of 'whooping shits' you don't fall behind schedule. Your client will be pleasantly surprised if you get your work done sooner too.

- To go along with the previous point, don't over book yourself. There's not much worse than having to miss sleep, showering, personal time, etc because of work. But when it's your own fault for promising too much to too many people, things have a way of being even more aggravating.

RGBRIOT fucked around with this message at Aug 2, 2012 around 20:24

qirex
Feb 15, 2001



The hardest thing for someone working freelance to do is turn down work but sometimes it might be worth it in the long run, just try to leave it in a "no, but I've got time in three weeks" or "no, but I'd love to work with you on your next project," context.

SleeplessInEngland
May 30, 2011


RGBRIOT posted:

As long as you weren't unprofessional in your correspondence most clients will understand that your time is finite and needs to be planned ahead. The ones who don't are probably going to be difficult to work with.

A couple of things for your consideration:

- Don't ever start work on something before agreement of terms has been set, preferably in some sort of contract. There are sites that can help you draft and sign digital contracts to avoid the turn around time of mailing and receiving physical copies. The only time in my opinion where work before agreement of terms might be acceptable is if you can use that work else where should things fall through. Your portfolio, generic design you can shop around to other similar business's, etc.

- Don't deviate from the agreement terms. If your client wants you to do so, insist on rewriting the agreement/contract. Agreements/Contracts are for both parties protection. If a client takes issue with this, they're probably not some one with whom you want to work.

- Never work for (just) royalties/shares. NEVER. While on the surface it might seem like a good idea the reality is that 99/100 times you're working for free and will never see a single cent. It's an amateur offer for people to extend to designers and underscores their inexperience or outright desire to swindle.

- To go along with monetary quotes, keep in mind our business is all about time management. Be sure to quote time frames that are longer than you expect the project to take. Think it's something you can do in a few days? Say a week. That way when your client takes days to get back to you, or you realize you have to do a major refinement, or you eat bad clams and end up with a ridiculous case of 'whooping shits' you don't fall behind schedule. Your client will be pleasantly surprised if you get your work done sooner too.

- To go along with the previous point, don't over book yourself. There's not much worse than having to miss sleep, showering, personal time, etc because of work. But when it's your own fault for promising too much to too many people, things have a way of being even more aggravating.

These were really great points, thanks! Especially the part about digital contracts, which I've never heard of before & will be really useful for a job I've got coming up (Hopefully).

The part about working for royalties is something I've seen being brought up a lot in advice threads but I've never even heard of it! I'm not sure whether I just haven't been around long enough to be offered such a fantastic opportunity (Or not) or maybe it's just a cultural thing that happens more in other countries than the UK.

Planning extra time when estimating a deadline is another thing I've screwed up on. I originally estimated a week for the initial designs (Would take me 2 days if I was working in an office) but then the lady I'm working for didn't get back to me about agreeing to my quote & is now on holiday until tomorrow, which is when the first draft was meant to be with her. Another learning curve, I guess

qirex posted:

The hardest thing for someone working freelance to do is turn down work but sometimes it might be worth it in the long run, just try to leave it in a "no, but I've got time in three weeks" or "no, but I'd love to work with you on your next project," context.

Thanks for the advice, I hadn't actually considered this at all. I know this company wants me to do more work for them but I'm not sure how much I can take on while going to uni so I'll keep this in mind when I'm taking on projects.

Defenestration
Aug 10, 2006

"It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"



Grimey Drawer

Josh Fruhlinger (the Comics Curmudgeon) wrote an article for freelancers about how to estimate tax payments

http://thebillfold.com/2012/09/here...or-freelancers/

quote:

Are you a freelancer? If so, your third-quarter taxes are due on September 17. Are you freaking out? Do you have a big bill, but arenít sure where the money will come from? Do you have no real idea how much the payment should be?

I cannot help you with your third-quarter payment. But I can help you avoid future shocks. Once, long ago, I was like you, and I had to unexpectedly pay $1,500 to The Man, and I swore with God as my witness that I would never be startled again like that. The key is, rather than panicking at large bills four times a year, youíre going deal with much more manageable bills once a month.


Adding it to the OP

pipes!
Jul 10, 2001


Nap Ghost

SleeplessInEngland posted:

Planning extra time when estimating a deadline is another thing I've screwed up on. I originally estimated a week for the initial designs (Would take me 2 days if I was working in an office) but then the lady I'm working for didn't get back to me about agreeing to my quote & is now on holiday until tomorrow, which is when the first draft was meant to be with her. Another learning curve, I guess

I can't stress this enough, I love including it in my contracts:

Defenestration posted:

3. Agile Deadlines
Someone elseís lack of organization shouldnít be your problem. If a client (or a subcontractor) fails to deliver you content required in the time outlined, your deadlines should adjust accordingly. Similarly, if the content delivered isnít up to snuff, your deadlines should also shift to reflect the time it takes to properly format it (if you have to do it, make sure you charge for it). Employing agile deadlines also helps to reinforce to the client that what you do takes time and effort without actually having to say it, and is is also nicer than just walking away from the project completely (although you could if you wanted to, provided the legal documentation supported it).

It's not your fault she took a vacation.

SleeplessInEngland
May 30, 2011


pipes! posted:

I can't stress this enough, I love including it in my contracts:


It's not your fault she took a vacation.

I'll keep that in mind for future reference! I ended up turning the job down anyway in the end. The lady 'queried' my quote when she got back from holiday and tried to get me to work for £3 an hour. I was already working at minimum wage so I told her she was being unreasonable and I haven't heard from her since

RGBRIOT
Apr 19, 2009

"Beauty, packaged for a digital world."


Holy poo poo. http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3507409

Talk about undervaluing one's talents, and by extension every other designer in the SA Mart.

Beat.
Nov 22, 2003

Hey, baby, wanna come up and see my etchings?


RGBRIOT posted:

Holy poo poo. http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3507409

Talk about undervaluing one's talents, and by extension every other designer in the SA Mart.

I wish I could work at McDonalds, I hear they have great benefits.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

Make way for the Urinal Parade.

SA Mart designers are why I would never look for gigs on here. It used to be a decent place, but the spec work over there is pretty lame. I mean, I guess people get semi-decent logos for a steal, but yeesh.

Reminds me of throwing a handful of peanuts at a bunch of starving monkeys.

anviroid
Aug 2, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


I've "won" a couple of those "contests" before in SA-MART. But I don't have any actual training or experience (or talent) and I just consider it a fun little thing to do and maybe put some cash into my paypal using the (limited) skills I have picked up in photoshop threads over the years.

If it were actually my job I certainly wouldn't consider those threads "work" and I'm sure most of the posters aren't really expecting to get professional designs (even though they often do... just not from me).

I think of them like photoshop threads where somebody gets paid.

Defenestration
Aug 10, 2006

"It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"



Grimey Drawer

Found a sweet chart of rates for editorial services

Added to OP

Rates for Editorial Work
By the Editorial Freelancers Association

http://www.the-efa.org/res/rates.php

Bro Enlai
Nov 9, 2008



Just curious if any artists in this thread have worked on a per-click payment model, and what kinds of rates you've seen.

RGBRIOT
Apr 19, 2009

"Beauty, packaged for a digital world."


Bro Enlai posted:

Just curious if any artists in this thread have worked on a per-click payment model, and what kinds of rates you've seen.

Never, by choice. This is just as bad as royalties/shares payments. In most circumstances you'll never get your fair worth from payments like these.

Bro Enlai
Nov 9, 2008



That's my feeling as well. I have a regular client who wants to switch from flat fee to per-click, which would represent a pretty drastic pay cut for me. So that has me weighing my options--do I stay in but try to negotiate some terms of my own, like downside protection or non-exclusivity? Or do I just strike out on my own? This isn't my primary income source, so I have some flexibility.

Business of Ferrets
Mar 2, 2008

Good to see that everything is back to normal.

Bro Enlai posted:

That's my feeling as well. I have a regular client who wants to switch from flat fee to per-click, which would represent a pretty drastic pay cut for me. So that has me weighing my options--do I stay in but try to negotiate some terms of my own, like downside protection or non-exclusivity? Or do I just strike out on my own? This isn't my primary income source, so I have some flexibility.

Why would you want to assume risk for your client's business decisions? There is a reason he thinks he stands to gain from such an arrangement. If you're willing to walk away, just go back with an offer you would find acceptable. Actually, ask for more than that, in the event you decide to negotiate down.

dj_clawson
Jan 12, 2004

We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.

Hey guys. (This is not a job offer)

I've got this graphic novel project in the works but my illustrator bailed. The book ("Ten Suns and Ten Moons") is my attempt to depict the life stories of ten Tibetans I interviewed in India in March, interspersed with life in Dharamsala, where they live now. I wanted to do it graphically because (a) I knew I didn't really have enough for a traditional book and (b) it hasn't been done before while there are a lot of normal refugee story books, and people like to check out new things. It's already gotten one big endorsement from Robert Thurman, and it'll probably get at least Tibet House in NYC and the office of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Women's Association.

I'm pretty familiar with publishing - I have ten books published (all historical or YA fiction) and I work for an agent - and I'm working on getting an agent to represent this material, which may not be possible because so few agents are handling graphic novels right now as the traditional market for that (action/sci-fi) is in flux and no one knows quite where it's going with new technology. I have gotten some good responses to the initial query - 4 out of 40, a good percentage - so I'm waiting on that. I'm sort of tepid about approaching publishers without an agent even though I could negotiate my way around a contract easily because publishers don't like unagented material.

I did speak to several graphic novel publishers at the Book Expo of American in June, and asked them what they were looking for in a pitch (I couldn't pitch there; it's rude). They all said the same thing: finished script, partial storyboards, 5 pages of finished art, then they would give me money to pay my illustrator. I've also heard conflicting stories that some people have in-house artists for projects like this. Also I know I'm going to have to pay the illustrator out of my pocket for the five pages of finished work.

So that leaves me with the illustrator. My Tibetan thangka painting teacher, who is a very good cartoonist, was going to do it, but it turns out putting together a whole book is different from scribbling interesting drawings of yaks, so he's backed down for all but the segments of the story that take place in pre-1959 Tibet. I'm looking for someone who can do slightly cartoon-y art ala Maus or any of Guy Delisle's work, and I do want color. I just don't know what kind of budget to expect at all, having seen wildly different things on the internet, and I don't know what the publisher will give me. Oh, and I have this magical fantasy that the publisher will give money enough to pay the illustrator and leave a couple thousand for me, because I would like to make money from this project and royalties can take years to see.

Does anyone have any suggestions of how to move forward? Publishers that can be approached directly for this kind of project? Illustrators who don't just do sci-fi concept art? Because when I searched for illustrators I got a LOT of that. Good art, but not art I need.

Pheeets
Sep 17, 2004

Are ya gonna come quietly, or am I gonna have to muss ya up?

dj_clawson posted:

Hey guys.

Does anyone have any suggestions of how to move forward? Publishers that can be approached directly for this kind of project? Illustrators who don't just do sci-fi concept art? Because when I searched for illustrators I got a LOT of that. Good art, but not art I need.

Many illustrators have agents too, I used to work for one of them. I would recommend her but she's semi-retired and only deals with existing contract matters. But if you google for illustrators agents you may get some websites that show samples of various artists' work, then you could make inquiries about specific artists that you like through their agency. I know my former boss was well-versed in all aspects of book/illustration contracts and how to shop for publishers, and was always willing to give advice; you might find another illustrators' agent who could help guide you.

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dj_clawson
Jan 12, 2004

We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.

Pheeets posted:

Many illustrators have agents too, I used to work for one of them. I would recommend her but she's semi-retired and only deals with existing contract matters. But if you google for illustrators agents you may get some websites that show samples of various artists' work, then you could make inquiries about specific artists that you like through their agency. I know my former boss was well-versed in all aspects of book/illustration contracts and how to shop for publishers, and was always willing to give advice; you might find another illustrators' agent who could help guide you.

Oh wow, I didn't even think about that. That's an area of publishing I have no experience in. I just looked some up and got a nice listing on linkism. How would you say I would go about approaching one, sans book contract? If it were a literary agent I would say query letter, but that's a VERY specific format.

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