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Chitin
Apr 29, 2007

It is no sign of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

Not strictly accurate; you automatically own copyright of anything you create unless you specifically give that up. IANL obviously. That said, it's wise to spell this out contractually to avoid the issue.

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triplexpac
Mar 24, 2007

Suck it
Two tears in a bucket
And then another thing
I'm not the one they'll try their luck with
Hit hard like brass knuckles
See your face through the turnbuckle dude
I got no love for you


kedo posted:

Also as a side note: just give up the source files. I always, always give away source files and it has never once bitten me. If someone no longer wishes to do business with you, refusing to give them source files is thumbing your nose at them and burning bridges. You will never get money for them, you're only going to piss someone off who will now be speaking badly about you. Trust me, this fight is never worth it. I watched my previous employer fail to achieve anything arguing with clients about poo poo like this, and now he has the reputation of being difficult to deal with and loses projects because of it.

I get what you're saying. If they weren't causing such a fuss about giving me ANY compensation I wouldn't be fighting them on it really... it's not like I hold these source files near and dear to my heart, I just want to be paid for the time it will take me to gather up & transfer 5 years of files. But they won't budge.

Anyway things have gone quiet so they've either given up or they are preparing to send me some kind of scary legal message.

kedo
Nov 27, 2007



triplexpac posted:

I just want to be paid for the time it will take me to gather up & transfer 5 years of files. But they won't budge.

That's totally reasonable. Hope you don't get sued, but I'd imagine it's pretty unlikely.

Megaspel
Mar 12, 2007
I CAN'T HELP BUT DERAIL THREADS WITH MY VERY PRESENCE

I ALSO HAVE A CLOUD OF DEDICATED IDIOTS FOLLOWING ME SHITTING UP EVERY THREAD I POST IN

IGNORE ME AND ANY DINOSAUR THAT FIGHTS WITH ME BECAUSE WE JUST CAN'T SHUT UP


I'm a bit of a newbie to freelancing. I did a bit in my teen years, even did a National Geographic tv ad once by getting lucky.

Anyway, now I'm in a bit of a weird zone where I no longer know how good my work is. I also don't know anywhere to find freelance jobs, besides some scummy sites that encourage lowest bidder mentality.

So, if you were to have a quick look at kodie.me, what would you say you'd pay me for whatever? And where all the jobs at? I think I'm going to go and find some art directors' email addresses and start sending my portfolio out.

Yip Yips
Sep 25, 2007
yip-yip-yip-yip-yip

I have never seen a website that's more difficult to process.

kedo
Nov 27, 2007



Christ, you sure have hosed up scrolling on that site.

You had a portfolio a few months ago that was way more usable than this. Honestly I'd redo your site before sending it out to any art directors. If I received this I'd write you off before looking at your work because it's impossible to use. Simplify, man. You could have one long page that just scrolls with no fancy keyboard navigation or JS wizardry and it would be 1000x better. If you're not trying to land a web design/dev gig, don't try to wow people with your web design/dev. It doesn't even work that well... as soon as I play a video the keyboard navigation ceases to function.

Otherwise: network. Go to events where there are people who you think might hire you and hand out business cards. Get to know lots of people. Keep applying to jobs in the mean time, but cold calling (or emailing) art directors will likely get you nowhere.

Sorry to be a negative nancy, but you're doing yourself no favors at the moment. Seriously, just do something like this:

Beat.
Nov 22, 2003

Hey, baby, wanna come up and see my etchings?


Megaspel posted:

I'm a bit of a newbie to freelancing. I did a bit in my teen years, even did a National Geographic tv ad once by getting lucky.

Anyway, now I'm in a bit of a weird zone where I no longer know how good my work is. I also don't know anywhere to find freelance jobs, besides some scummy sites that encourage lowest bidder mentality.

So, if you were to have a quick look at kodie.me, what would you say you'd pay me for whatever? And where all the jobs at? I think I'm going to go and find some art directors' email addresses and start sending my portfolio out.

I would start at no less than $1,000 (US) an hour and negotiate from there. Clearly, you know what you're doing and any client will benefit from your impeccable design skills. Always get a retainer or half payment based on an estimate up front.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

Make way for the Urinal Parade.

And do yourself a huge favor and read up on adaptive design. At least 50% of your traffic is going to come from mobile devices. It doesn't fly to design for desktop only anymore.

jinpachistar
Dec 25, 2012



A fellow intern at the company I work at referred me to a guy that seems to be directing and producing his own TV series to pitch (on the phone, he claimed that he already had a potentially interested network and meetings set up with investors). He gave me a copy of his 60 page teleplay and asked me if I was willing to (a) proofread and format it (as it currently stands, its riddled with grammatical, spelling, and formatting errors) and (b) replace one of the characters and write in a new one. Because he wants to show off his script to a potential investor by the 21st, the guy wants at least the proofreading/formatting done by the 20th (and the new character done sometime later).

Anyone have some kind of similar experience to this? I was just confused as to what to charge because this is my first freelance job and it isn't clear-cut editing or writing. Similar "script doctoring" services online charge anywhere from around $300 to $700 from what I've seen (just to proofread and format, not write in characters), but while I do have prior screenwriting experience, I'm straight out of college and haven't published anything.

neonnoodle
Mar 20, 2008

by exmarx


jinpachistar posted:

A fellow intern at the company I work at referred me to a guy that seems to be directing and producing his own TV series to pitch (on the phone, he claimed that he already had a potentially interested network and meetings set up with investors). He gave me a copy of his 60 page teleplay and asked me if I was willing to (a) proofread and format it (as it currently stands, its riddled with grammatical, spelling, and formatting errors) and (b) replace one of the characters and write in a new one. Because he wants to show off his script to a potential investor by the 21st, the guy wants at least the proofreading/formatting done by the 20th (and the new character done sometime later).
This person is insane. Do not do any work for them. Nobody has "a potentially interested network" or any real "investors" if their teleplay is riddled with basic errors like that. This person is completely full of poo poo and will probably never pay you.

RUN.

John Liver
May 4, 2009



jinpachistar posted:

Anyone have some kind of similar experience to this?

neonnoodle posted:

This person is insane. Do not do any work for them. Nobody has "a potentially interested network" or any real "investors" if their teleplay is riddled with basic errors like that. This person is completely full of poo poo and will probably never pay you.

RUN.

Yeah, that. Any idiot can type up a document, and many idiots do. 10 to 1 says those investors are fictitious.

jinpachistar
Dec 25, 2012



Yeah, both of you guys make sense. I ended up doing some more research and saw that he tried to fund and shoot his pilot back in 2009 (the title, characters, and premise of the 2009 pilot were similar or the same as the teleplay he gave me) but nothing ever came of it, which to me doesn't bode well for his current attempt.

Thanks for the advice. In hindsight, it should have been obvious from the phone call and the quality of the teleplay but I guess I was excited about getting paid for doing something I like.

jinpachistar fucked around with this message at Feb 12, 2015 around 20:13

kedo
Nov 27, 2007



jinpachistar posted:

Thanks for the advice. In hindsight, it should have been obvious from the phone call but I guess I was excited about getting paid for doing something I like.

Get the money upfront if you really want to do it and feel like he's paying you enough. Then if it all turns out to be a ruse, at least you'll have a few hundred bucks.

Defenestration
Aug 10, 2006

"It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"



Grimey Drawer

John Liver posted:

Any idiot can type up a document, and many idiots do.

God bless the slush pile

John Liver
May 4, 2009



Defenestration posted:

God bless the slush pile

Hell yeah, we should have a thread for that

Already Bored
Mar 5, 2004
I HAVE HIGHER ETHICAL AND MORALE VALUES. DID I MENTION I LIKE COCK

I was a freelance photographer for 8 years and probably made every mistake possible. I've lowballed on jobs, incorrectly invoiced clients, poorly communicated with them, been screwed over and lost money owed, not to mention the hours of time wasted chasing up late payments. Many of my freelancer friends and colleagues have gone through similar problems and I wanted to build a tool that would help ease the burden.

I built Domino over the past few months. Essentially it's the simplest, fastest way to create, send and manage invoices as a freelancer. It can also:
  • Lock your files from being downloaded until you're paid upfront (good for freelancers working with consumers or very small businesses, new clients, etc.)
  • Send automated payment reminders by email (saving you the hassle)
  • Integrate with your Dropbox/Drive account.
  • Let you get paid online (via Stripe)

We're in beta and I'd love to help out any goons who would benefit from using it.

Also if you have any invoicing/cashflow questions generally I'd be happy to answer them from my own experience.

Defenestration
Aug 10, 2006

"It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"



Grimey Drawer

Already Bored posted:

I was a freelance photographer for 8 years and probably made every mistake possible. I've lowballed on jobs, incorrectly invoiced clients, poorly communicated with them, been screwed over and lost money owed, not to mention the hours of time wasted chasing up late payments. Many of my freelancer friends and colleagues have gone through similar problems and I wanted to build a tool that would help ease the burden.

I built Domino over the past few months. Essentially it's the simplest, fastest way to create, send and manage invoices as a freelancer. It can also:
  • Lock your files from being downloaded until you're paid upfront (good for freelancers working with consumers or very small businesses, new clients, etc.)
  • Send automated payment reminders by email (saving you the hassle)
  • Integrate with your Dropbox/Drive account.
  • Let you get paid online (via Stripe)

We're in beta and I'd love to help out any goons who would benefit from using it.

Also if you have any invoicing/cashflow questions generally I'd be happy to answer them from my own experience.
Great resource, adding to the OP

Squidster
Oct 7, 2008

Life's just better with Ominous Gloves.


It's been years since I've been in the art or illustration business, but I need to write up a quote for newspaper illustrations on behalf of some of my clients.

What's a fair modern rate for B+W article illustrations for a primarily-online readership? The artists in question are very talented, but not necessarily well-known.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


Squidster posted:

It's been years since I've been in the art or illustration business, but I need to write up a quote for newspaper illustrations on behalf of some of my clients.

What's a fair modern rate for B+W article illustrations for a primarily-online readership? The artists in question are very talented, but not necessarily well-known.

Well I've never done editorial commissions so take this all with a grain of salt but I do have a copy of the graphic artist's guild handbook if that might be helpful as a starter point.

According to it, in the US $500- $1500 is considered the expected range for a professional illustration for an online newspaper. I'm assuming Canada will be at least somewhat comparable to this.

Though as you brought up, with lesser known artists you might not get as much, and you'll have to take the complexity of the image (specifically how long it'll take your artists to make it) into account. Also important is the renown and reader base for the venue. If it's just like a website for a city paper then you might not get as much as opposed to one that covers all of Toronto or one that has national/international readers.

Also you said that the illustrations are for a primarily (but not only) online readership, does that mean they do print on a limited basis? Normally, you negotiate usage rights for print/online separately (with separate fees) though you could do a twofer to help build a relationship with the client if you suspect they don't have a large budget and you really want the gig. Since you are doing a quote, hopefully that means they like the work your artists are doing though there is the chance they are still just shopping around for the cheapest deal or whatever.

Just make sure that when you break down how much the artists get vs hours they'll have to work that they make a reasonable amount (whatever you and the artists deem as reasonable that is) for the time they'll put in. There is always some negotiation and wiggle room for pricing these things anyways. Easiest way would be to find what competitors in your area are charging, though that can be difficult to find out since competing art firms/reps aren't likely to tip their hand about that kind of thing. If you can do that though, then that might be the surest way to find out what's considered reasonable.

If you still have time, I know an art rep I can ask who specializes in advertisement work who would probably be able to give a better answer. They may not know the market in the area so I don't think you'd get specific answers but they might know things to watch out for and the like. If you have a question you'd like me to ask, let me know.

JuniperCake fucked around with this message at Apr 10, 2015 around 22:05

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow


So I've recently been in contact with a local business owner who makes a product that's decoration for rear windshield wipers. He's seeking a designer to help expand what he has to offer, and going by the emails I should expect to be contacted by him today to discuss things further.

He wanted to know how many hours I'd be able to dedicate to freelance designs, seemed an odd question but I answered honestly. But he also brought up something which seemed a little surprising. He wanted to know whether I'd be willing to design on a residual basis, and I had to do some googling to actually understand what he was talking about. Now it actually sounds like a good thing, paid on each product with one of my designs sold up to a pre-determined cap.

I told him I'd need to think on that a bit further, but that I might be interested.


The real question here is, what might I be looking to deal with regarding this? In all honesty I'm not sure how he intends to pay for my services, there aren't many blatant ways for him to pay me by the hour that I can think of unless I used a program that tracks my work, and then on top of that I don't even really know how much to charge per hour. I suppose realistically I'll find out a lot of this today, we were talking through email rather late yesterday after all.


It'll just be nice knowing what to say in case something sounds off is all.


Edit: Just got off the phone with him. I gotta say the guy is very laid back, and it was easy to talk with him. From what it sounds like he wanted to know how many hours I'd be able to dedicate to get an idea of how many designs I could complete in a week. Compensation will be done entirely through a residual payment, with each product being sold for $15-$19 dollars I would receive $1 per sale up to a cap of $100 per design.

I'm not experienced enough to know whether this is a good deal or not, but given my current financial situation it may be a sound decision. A lot of the designs may not even require much work, such as creating baseball bats from an already built template for local teams.

Arthil fucked around with this message at Apr 13, 2015 around 15:50

kedo
Nov 27, 2007



Arthil posted:

So I've recently been in contact with a local business owner who makes a product that's decoration for rear windshield wipers. He's seeking a designer to help expand what he has to offer, and going by the emails I should expect to be contacted by him today to discuss things further.

He wanted to know how many hours I'd be able to dedicate to freelance designs, seemed an odd question but I answered honestly. But he also brought up something which seemed a little surprising. He wanted to know whether I'd be willing to design on a residual basis, and I had to do some googling to actually understand what he was talking about. Now it actually sounds like a good thing, paid on each product with one of my designs sold up to a pre-determined cap.

I told him I'd need to think on that a bit further, but that I might be interested.


The real question here is, what might I be looking to deal with regarding this? In all honesty I'm not sure how he intends to pay for my services, there aren't many blatant ways for him to pay me by the hour that I can think of unless I used a program that tracks my work, and then on top of that I don't even really know how much to charge per hour. I suppose realistically I'll find out a lot of this today, we were talking through email rather late yesterday after all.


It'll just be nice knowing what to say in case something sounds off is all.


Edit: Just got off the phone with him. I gotta say the guy is very laid back, and it was easy to talk with him. From what it sounds like he wanted to know how many hours I'd be able to dedicate to get an idea of how many designs I could complete in a week. Compensation will be done entirely through a residual payment, with each product being sold for $15-$19 dollars I would receive $1 per sale up to a cap of $100 per design.

I'm not experienced enough to know whether this is a good deal or not, but given my current financial situation it may be a sound decision. A lot of the designs may not even require much work, such as creating baseball bats from an already built template for local teams.


Noooo.... you did this all wrong!

1) "Compensation on a residual basis" is spec work. You're working for free hoping to make some money if people buy the product. People buying the product is his problem, not yours. He stands to make a lot of money if one of his products sells a lot, and you stand to just get paid for the work you did if one of the products sell a lot, and not paid at all if the product doesn't sell. You're literally working for free with the hopes of getting paid.

He's loving you over to keep his costs down and you're making lovely money if it's only $100 per design (unless these designs literally take you less than a half hour to fully produce).

2) Do you have a contract? If not, why would he pay you? If he sells 100 of whatever these things are, why would he give you $100? Because he's a nice guy? Get a contract if you don't have one. If he doesn't want to have a contract, don't work with him, period.

3) You can figure out your hourly rate using tools like these.

Sorry if I'm coming across as alarmist, but your post reads exactly like the horror story every single designer in the world has from that first gig where they had no idea what they were doing and someone took advantage of them. "I don't know what to charge" + "hmmm he said he'd pay me when he gets paid!" + no contract = you're about to get hosed. If I were you I would stop everything, get a contract, and suggest that you'd rather work hourly than on a residual basis. If he says no to the latter but signs a contract it's up to you, but I will still bet money that this is a huge waste of your time.

e: Here's a good barometer for you... if he's made these things before, ask him who his previous designer was and why they're no longer working together.

kedo fucked around with this message at Apr 13, 2015 around 16:14

Chitin
Apr 29, 2007

It is no sign of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

That is literally one of the worst deals I have ever heard someone even consider. Best-case scenario is that you get paid poorly?

Edit: to expand on this, he's asking you to shoulder some of the risk, essentially making you an investor in his business even though what you're providing is expertise rather than cash. He then wants to cut you out before you experience any significant upside; in other words, he wants you to take the risk but still pay you in the end as though you hadn't taken any risk at all. The only way for this to be a good deal is if he a) has shown significant sales in the past, and b) if you remove the hundred dollar "cap" and share in all future revenue from your designs.

Chitin fucked around with this message at Apr 13, 2015 around 21:21

Squidster
Oct 7, 2008

Life's just better with Ominous Gloves.


JuniperCake posted:

Well I've never done editorial commissions so take this all with a grain of salt but I do have a copy of the graphic artist's guild handbook if that might be helpful as a starter point.

According to it, in the US $500- $1500 is considered the expected range for a professional illustration for an online newspaper. I'm assuming Canada will be at least somewhat comparable to this.

Though as you brought up, with lesser known artists you might not get as much, and you'll have to take the complexity of the image (specifically how long it'll take your artists to make it) into account. Also important is the renown and reader base for the venue. If it's just like a website for a city paper then you might not get as much as opposed to one that covers all of Toronto or one that has national/international readers.

Also you said that the illustrations are for a primarily (but not only) online readership, does that mean they do print on a limited basis? Normally, you negotiate usage rights for print/online separately (with separate fees) though you could do a twofer to help build a relationship with the client if you suspect they don't have a large budget and you really want the gig. Since you are doing a quote, hopefully that means they like the work your artists are doing though there is the chance they are still just shopping around for the cheapest deal or whatever.

Just make sure that when you break down how much the artists get vs hours they'll have to work that they make a reasonable amount (whatever you and the artists deem as reasonable that is) for the time they'll put in. There is always some negotiation and wiggle room for pricing these things anyways. Easiest way would be to find what competitors in your area are charging, though that can be difficult to find out since competing art firms/reps aren't likely to tip their hand about that kind of thing. If you can do that though, then that might be the surest way to find out what's considered reasonable.

If you still have time, I know an art rep I can ask who specializes in advertisement work who would probably be able to give a better answer. They may not know the market in the area so I don't think you'd get specific answers but they might know things to watch out for and the like. If you have a question you'd like me to ask, let me know.
Thanks for the advice! I'd love to get in touch with your art rep friend if at all possible - could you pass them my email at andrew@tocomix.com?

Defenestration
Aug 10, 2006

"It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"



Grimey Drawer

Arthil posted:

Compensation will be done entirely through a residual payment, with each product being sold for $15-$19 dollars I would receive $1 per sale up to a cap of $100 per design.


A lot of the designs may not even require much work, such as creating baseball bats from an already built template for local teams.

Other people have said it but this is a terrible deal. If it's capped at $100 he should just be paying you $100 per design up front, and even that is low if you think about it hourly.

I'd also like to point out that those local teams will likely have IP that you need to acquire like logos which will add to your time and costs.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow


kedo posted:

Noooo.... you did this all wrong!

1) "Compensation on a residual basis" is spec work. You're working for free hoping to make some money if people buy the product. People buying the product is his problem, not yours. He stands to make a lot of money if one of his products sells a lot, and you stand to just get paid for the work you did if one of the products sell a lot, and not paid at all if the product doesn't sell. You're literally working for free with the hopes of getting paid.

He's loving you over to keep his costs down and you're making lovely money if it's only $100 per design (unless these designs literally take you less than a half hour to fully produce).

2) Do you have a contract? If not, why would he pay you? If he sells 100 of whatever these things are, why would he give you $100? Because he's a nice guy? Get a contract if you don't have one. If he doesn't want to have a contract, don't work with him, period.

3) You can figure out your hourly rate using tools like these.

Sorry if I'm coming across as alarmist, but your post reads exactly like the horror story every single designer in the world has from that first gig where they had no idea what they were doing and someone took advantage of them. "I don't know what to charge" + "hmmm he said he'd pay me when he gets paid!" + no contract = you're about to get hosed. If I were you I would stop everything, get a contract, and suggest that you'd rather work hourly than on a residual basis. If he says no to the latter but signs a contract it's up to you, but I will still bet money that this is a huge waste of your time.

e: Here's a good barometer for you... if he's made these things before, ask him who his previous designer was and why they're no longer working together.

Had a feeling that it wouldn't be as useful as it seemed. Now the guy threw around some wording suggesting that I might not know how to do what he wants me to do. He's seen my portfolio, which is here: http://www.cawilliams.portfoliobox.me/ , and overall thought I didn't have enough to judge things. I'm just going to go ahead and link to his web store as well so you guys can see what some of his current designs are: https://www.wipertags.com/shop-wipertags.html

From what I've been told, a lot of what he's done has been his own work. He's also had some stuff done by friends, but there are a handful of other designers he's worked with. That highly detailed dogs paw is a good example, along with the lightsabers and the chainsaw/machete.

His explanation for why the other artists are no longer working with him is because they were just far too busy with other work to continue. But now I'm wondering whether they might have cut ties once the "payment" method he goes for bit them in the rear end, or if he is the one who ended the businesses relationship because they were too expensive for him. A lot of what he was talking about seemed to be animal focused, as his store is sparse to put it lightly. He also does custom work for local sports teams. From how it sounded the first things he'd want would be animal tails(cats especially as he was contacted about if he had any and had to tell people no.) One concern is that he did use the phrasing of "I have to take care of all the marketing/shipping/packaging stuff and you just do the art" Which felt a little dismissive.


Now I don't wanna just send him an email that simply sounds like "Pay me more money, now." Or... I guess I kind of need to but I'd like to not burn a bridge before it's even been built. I'm not savvy on contracts, and judging by what that calculator says my hourly rate would be somewhere around $19. How much should I ask him? Should I even inquire about his revenue, about which products are the best selling?(I kind of did already, suggested the lightsabers had sold the best and he said they were his best-sellers). This seems both like it could be an excellent opportunity if I can do this right, or a flat out disaster where I'm ripped off.

Edit:

Defenestration posted:

Other people have said it but this is a terrible deal. If it's capped at $100 he should just be paying you $100 per design up front, and even that is low if you think about it hourly.

I'd also like to point out that those local teams will likely have IP that you need to acquire like logos which will add to your time and costs.

When it comes to the local teams, the way it works out on the website they come to him for the custom work to be done. He's also trying to work something out where he could produce state team products.

kedo
Nov 27, 2007



Arthil posted:

Had a feeling that it wouldn't be as useful as it seemed. Now the guy threw around some wording suggesting that I might not know how to do what he wants me to do. He's seen my portfolio, which is here: http://www.cawilliams.portfoliobox.me/ , and overall thought I didn't have enough to judge things. I'm just going to go ahead and link to his web store as well so you guys can see what some of his current designs are: https://www.wipertags.com/shop-wipertags.html

From what I've been told, a lot of what he's done has been his own work. He's also had some stuff done by friends, but there are a handful of other designers he's worked with. That highly detailed dogs paw is a good example, along with the lightsabers and the chainsaw/machete.

This all looks like poo poo he pulled off the internet and spent 5 minutes dicking with in Photoshop.

Arthil posted:

His explanation for why the other artists are no longer working with him is because they were just far too busy with other work to continue. But now I'm wondering whether they might have cut ties once the "payment" method he goes for bit them in the rear end, or if he is the one who ended the businesses relationship because they were too expensive for him. A lot of what he was talking about seemed to be animal focused, as his store is sparse to put it lightly. He also does custom work for local sports teams. From how it sounded the first things he'd want would be animal tails(cats especially as he was contacted about if he had any and had to tell people no.) One concern is that he did use the phrasing of "I have to take care of all the marketing/shipping/packaging stuff and you just do the art" Which felt a little dismissive.

This is a Bad Client. Flee. There is nothing good that will come from working with him. What he's really saying is, "The people who do the production, marketing, shipping and packaging are real businesses that charge me money and I can't trick them into working for free."

Arthil posted:

Now I don't wanna just send him an email that simply sounds like "Pay me more money, now." Or... I guess I kind of need to but I'd like to not burn a bridge before it's even been built. I'm not savvy on contracts, and judging by what that calculator says my hourly rate would be somewhere around $19. How much should I ask him? Should I even inquire about his revenue, about which products are the best selling?(I kind of did already, suggested the lightsabers had sold the best and he said they were his best-sellers). This seems both like it could be an excellent opportunity if I can do this right, or a flat out disaster where I'm ripped off.

$19/hr is what you should be making in an entry level position in a cheap market if you have a salaried position at a real company. I get the feeling you didn't plug the right numbers into that calculator. Think about this:

$19/hr * 40 hours a week * 52 weeks a year (assuming you take no vacations) = $39520 before taxes and any sort of stuff your employer would normally be paying for, but that you're responsible for because you're freelancing (ie. software, insurance, their 15% of FICA, etc). Assuming your costs are roughly 30% including taxes, that means you're take home is $26083. That is not a good salary for a designer.

Here's Kedo's Ghettorigged Freelance Formula:

A) figure out what your costs of living are (housing, food, etc)
B) figure out what your business costs are (software, insurance, etc)
C) how much money you need to save per year to not die in poverty
D) how much money you want for living your life (entertainment, vacation, etc)
E) how much money you need for incidentals (eg. oh gently caress my car broke down)

A + B + C + D + E = your salary before taxes. Your salary / 48 weeks (two weeks of vacation + 10 holidays) / 40 hours per week = your hourly rate.

You are way undervaluing yourself. Realistically if you're freelancing full time you can only expect to bill 30 hours a week as an absolute maximum unless you're working overtime, so the number you come up with is still going to be artificially inflated. So say you do A + B + C + D + E and decide you're worth $70,000 per year. That means your hourly rate should be $36/hr, and like I said that number isn't even super realistic because you can't possibly bill 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year. My point is your rate is probably wrong.


Please don't do work with this guy. If you don't want to burn a bridge tell him you have other better paying work and you're very sorry but you can't accept his offer right now. Honestly you shouldn't even worry about burning this bridge. I don't know what the market is like for design where you live, but honestly for what he's offering to maybe pay you, you'd be better off spending that time trying to find real work.

e: Use this as a reference for writing a contract. If you have PMs shoot me one and I'll email you a copy of my contract if you like.

kedo fucked around with this message at Apr 14, 2015 around 03:08

Yip Yips
Sep 25, 2007
yip-yip-yip-yip-yip

Red flag city, abort.

kedo
Nov 27, 2007



e: On second thought, it's probably not the best idea to post my contract on the interwebs. PM me if you'd like to see it.

kedo fucked around with this message at Apr 14, 2015 around 03:03

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow


I guess the reason I felt it was a good opportunity is that I'm a little desperate. I've been working with illustrator for close to 6 months(going on seven) and I've just not had any luck with work. When I first started a lot of what I was doing was spec work on contest websites, as I just wasn't sure how else to get experience working with the program and building a portfolio.

This being the first time that I'd spoken with someone local also made it seem like a wonderful thing, but with everything you guys have told me unless I get a solid contract without the limited residual/spec work crap it wouldn't even be worth my time.

Even before coming here to ask for advice, the fact that he used the words "It will help you build your portfolio" kind of shot up a red flag in the back of my mind. It feels like the guy thinks I'll be cheap labor for very simple work.


kedo, mind if you shoot me an email with that? I don't actually have PMs on here(though I really should get them) and my work email is available under my portfolio's About Me page.

Yip Yips
Sep 25, 2007
yip-yip-yip-yip-yip

If someone opens by describing their project as an "opportunity" for me I just mentally check out and nod my head until they're done talking.

If you do get him to sign a contract I would still recommend not letting him run up a big tab for obvious reasons.

JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013


Squidster posted:

Thanks for the advice! I'd love to get in touch with your art rep friend if at all possible - could you pass them my email at andrew@tocomix.com?

Sure, I can ask and see if that would be alright. She knows a lot more than I do about this stuff so hopefully she'll be able to offer some helpful info.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow


kedo posted:

e: On second thought, it's probably not the best idea to post my contract on the interwebs. PM me if you'd like to see it.

Hey kedo, shoot me an email if you'd still want to share it: andrewwilliams1989@gmail.com

But yeah we'll see how things go, got a feeling that he won't be willing to work out a contrast. Hell I'd honestly be fine with say... $50 up front along with a residual up to $100. But I agree that even if the work isn't all that complicated, not compensating me for my time is not cool. He outright asked me in the emails whether design was a side thing/hobby or what I wanted to do full time. You'd think being told that it's what you intend to do full time wouldn't equal "Might not pay you a dime".


Someone earlier in the thread posted that invoice website, already got myself set up on it. Wonderful idea.


Edit: Sent him an email explaining that we'll need to come to an agreement for me to be compensated per design, and if I'll be paid a residual per sale we'll also need a contract.


Thanks for getting back to me so quickly on all of this guys. I'll need to keep looking if he has no interest in actually paying me. He did after all ask me whether this is more of a hobby or something I want to do full-time. You'd think that being told that you intend to do something full-time would read as "I want to make a living doing this."

He's not the only small business owner out there, I'll just keep working on personal projects and dabble here and there in contests which sound fun so that I will have more to add to my portfolio.

Arthil fucked around with this message at Apr 14, 2015 around 09:55

neonnoodle
Mar 20, 2008

by exmarx


Arthil posted:

I guess the reason I felt it was a good opportunity is that I'm a little desperate. I've been working with illustrator for close to 6 months(going on seven) and I've just not had any luck with work.
Don't go to the supermarket when you're starving & don't take spec jobs when you're desperate.

moerketid
Jul 3, 2012



Arthil posted:

One concern is that he did use the phrasing of "I have to take care of all the marketing/shipping/packaging stuff and you just do the art" Which felt a little dismissive.

I had to laugh at this because his product is basically 100% the artwork. Without the artwork/designs he would have no product to sell, at all. His product totally and utterly relies on the loving picture and he has the gall to act like that's a minor part? Just lol at this dude.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow


Do I take a screenshot of the email he just sent me and link it here, or not.

I think I probably should, though I'll edit out anything too specific.

Or I can just not be a doofus and link the text here in a spoiler.

Understood. It's a residual only job for now. I have a simple contract agreement I can send you. I can't afford to pay a salary yet because I don't have the revenue. If your designs sell, we both get make money. If they don't, we don't. These designs will get done, whether it's you or someone else. I can go to Fiverr.com and pay someone $5 to make each one with no residual, but I prefer to keep it local and give someone the opportunity to make money and build their portfolio. I can send you visit stats to my website and sales of designs to show you the growth.

I've been a freelance designer, and its not a great gig. You get paid one time for something that may take days or weeks to make the client happy. This isn't complicated design work. You can knock most designs out in less than an hours. Some in 15 -20 minutes or less. Most designs can and will eventually sell 100 pieces, especially when I get into retail. Do the math. I sold 120 dog bones to one non profit that took me 10 minutes to make. They have been reselling to make money for their organization.

I'm also working on a Kickstarter video and fundraising campaign that will drive tens of thousands of people to the site. When that happens, I have to have more products to offer, because they will expect it. That's the urgency. I don't have time to design then all.

If you don't want to be part of this, I understand. But I'm offering you an opportunity to invest your talent, hone your skills, and build your portfolio while getting paid doing it.

I didn't even mention the opportunity for direct sales. There are millions of leagues, schools, churches, non profits and other organizations who would love this product. I work these leads everyday as they come in. We can work on a commission split on these sales. They are 99% via email. I also have several people selling this product on the side to make money. I sell to them for $10 and they resell for $15. Unlimited potential.

Let me know if you are interested and I will get you some samples of the product so you can see the quality of them. Otherwise, I wish you the best of luck.


Now it's weird that he goes right into thinking I assume the product isn't quality, I never mentioned that. If I were to go by my own gut from the email, he sounds desperate. Just not desperate enough to go to cheapo websites to get the work done. I also didn't ever suggest he give me a salary, I suggested I be paid per piece of artwork along with residual.

Edit: Also gently caress me if it isn't weirdly conflicting that he doesn't want to use a cheapo $5 design website and keep it local, yet seems to not want to pay someone who is local for their work.

Arthil fucked around with this message at Apr 14, 2015 around 15:19

Anony Mouse
Jan 30, 2005

A name means nothing on the battlefield. After a week, no one has a name.

Lipstick Apathy

He's spending a lot of energy trying to convince you because talk is cheap. He's full of hot air and a hypocrite who contradicts himself in almost comical fashion. He talks up his business like it's a sure thing, and yet whines that he can't afford to pay you. He's basically asking you to put your skin in the game by spending your time, rather than risking his own money by paying you, because if things don't work out it's better for him that you've wasted hours of work while he hasn't lost a dime.

If he thinks his business has a real chance of succeeding then he shouldn't hesitate for a second to pay fair market value for design work in order to help it grow. He's either a terrible business person or an exploitative rear end in a top hat, or both. I'd avoid this guy if I were you (anyone who insults my work by comparing it to a $5 job on fiverr isn't worth my time) but if you do decide to play along make sure you get 100% of your money up front before doing any work, and if he isn't willing to be reasonable then screw him.

neonnoodle
Mar 20, 2008

by exmarx


Arthil posted:

Or I can just not be a doofus and link the text here in a spoiler.

BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow


Yeah, I'm gonna keep firm with him about this. After I've seen his "contract" I'll make a mention of how confident he is of his product and that if he is that confident then he shouldn't have any problem paying a fair market value. Though to be honest, I should probably square out what exactly a fair market value would be for the sort of work he's asking for.


I'm definitely not going to accept only residual pay with this guy, I've been doing nothing but spec work bullshit with contest websites the past several months and I only have one success to name and even then it's only $200 when I've put a lot of effort in working with that client. This guy has not caught the kind of fish that's just going to accept his one-sided terms.

Slightly Absurd
Mar 22, 2004


You probably shouldn't even bother with this guy anymore

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kedo
Nov 27, 2007



Arthil posted:

Yeah, I'm gonna keep firm with him about this. After I've seen his "contract" I'll make a mention of how confident he is of his product and that if he is that confident then he shouldn't have any problem paying a fair market value. Though to be honest, I should probably square out what exactly a fair market value would be for the sort of work he's asking for.


I'm definitely not going to accept only residual pay with this guy, I've been doing nothing but spec work bullshit with contest websites the past several months and I only have one success to name and even then it's only $200 when I've put a lot of effort in working with that client. This guy has not caught the kind of fish that's just going to accept his one-sided terms.

You really need to plain stop trying to work with him. Don't look at his contract. His email tells you everything you need to know. He's trying to sell your work but at the same time he places no value on your work. I agree with Anony Mouse and neonnoodle, his email reeks of desperation and bullshit. Lets pretend for a moment that you sign a perfect contract and he pays you upfront for everything. Even if that's the case you're still working with someone who does not understand or value what you do. Please trust me, I've had business relationships like that before and they are absolutely awful.

Seriously, reply with this: "Thanks for all of the information, I really appreciate it. This project doesn't seem to be the best fit for me but I truly appreciate your interest in working with me. Best of luck to you too!" and then never think of this guy again.

I'll send you a copy of my contract, but it won't protect you from a dude like this. If he doesn't pay you (he won't), you'd probably have to spend more money trying to force him to pay than you'd actually get paid.

Toxic. Sever.

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