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gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

A note: I've been shooting long range for over 5 years, and I am still learning things all the time. I don't claim to know everything or be the ultimate expert. If you find something that you disagree with, I would strongly encourage you to discuss it.



LONG RANGE SHOOTING
What is long range shooting? I define it as essentially any shooting at a range where you have to compensate for significant ballistic and environmental factors, and correcting for these factors to achieve the goal of hitting a target efficiently and accurately. For a .22lr, this could be 200 meters, for a .308, 800 meters.

In this thread I hope to cover the variables and important concepts involved, and the techniques and equipment required to be successful.

This is quite a lot of information, as long range as a category can include:

-Hunting
-"varminting"
-Casual Plinking
-Military or LE shooting (I'll leave the relevant specifics up to those with experience, however the basics of shooting are the same)
Competition, including:
-F Class
-LR Benchrest
-"Practical/Tactical/Sniper" competitions such as the Steel Safari
-that weird stuff with the open sights (Hi-power, Palma, etc). I don't know much about this so hopefully someone who does can chime in (forums user "sushi"?)

Obviously for all these different applications of long range shooting, there are different skill and equipment requirements, and certain variables take on more or less importance. My focus tends to be more towards the practical field shooting side of things, as this is my background.


Variables
The major variables that we need to discuss in relation to shooting at long range are:

Gravity
Wind
Mechanical Accuracy
Air Pressure/Altitude
Temperature
Shooting angle
Cant
Spin Drift
Coriolis
Humidity


Before I explain these, I have to introduce a very important concept:

BALLISTIC CO-EFFICIENT
A ballistic co-efficient is a number that describes the relative aerodynamic efficiency of your projectile, as compared to a theoretical perfect projectile. The higher your BC, the better your bullet is at essentially everything. A higher BC bullet compared to a lower BC bullet will retain speed longer, therefore lessening time of flight and with that, lessening wind drift, lessening variation from change in temperature/pressure/humidity, lessening spin drift/coriolis, increasing retained energy and impact velocity. It is always best to use the highest BC bullet that will work for your application. If you're hunting, of course you're not going to use a 160gr lathe-turn brass solid in your 6.5mm rifle, it would not expand so would be useless to you despite the exceptionally high BC. Generally speaking, higher BC bullets are heavy for calibre. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that lighter and faster is better: BC always wins. 2 bullets of the same BC, if fired at the same speed, will have identical trajectories, even if one is signficantly larger and heavier than the other. A 90gr .224" bullet with a G1 BC of .55 will have an identical trajectory to a 225gr .338 bullet with a G1 BC of .55 if all else is equal (speed, atmosphere). This can be hard for some people to understand at first.

The usual number given by most bullet manufacturers is a G1 BC, but the G7 model is a closer fit to real life for the VLD-style (very low drag) bullets generally used for long range shooting. The G7 model uses a different drag function in the calculation and is more accurate with VLD-style bullets. You can get the G7 BC of a vast range of popular long range bullets, as measured with doppler radar, from tables at the back of Bryan Litz' book, "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting". The JBM Ballistic Calculator also has Litz-measured G1 BC values in the drop-down projectile selection field, which are more accurate than most factory supplied BC values.

BC actually changes with the speed of the projectile, the single number of a BC is the average over a certain speed range, I believe that for the Litz measured values it is average BC over 1500-3000fps, which covers most shooting with most standard calibres. Using a single average value can be more than accurate for practical purposes - as long as it's a measured number and not estimated. Most manufacturers give estimated numbers which is why I recommend using the Litz BC of your bullet if it is available.

It used to be common practice to attempt to measure your own BC using 2 chronographs, 1 at the muzzle and 1 at 100 meters and firing over them both, then working backwards from the speeds they gave you to get your BC value, but this gives you a bad result because unless you have a very high end chronograph they can have fairly significant (and cumulative) error, if the 2 chronographs are not perfectly aligned you get error, and assuming you have no error in your speed measurements, working back from them only gives you the higher BC of the bullet at the muzzle, not the average over the whole trajectory, so it will be less accurate at longer ranges. Use the Litz BC if it is available or failing that, the manufacturer supplied number. If anyone needs the Litz G1 or G7 BC for a bullet, I have his book and can probably find it in there.

To recap: Use a bullet with a BC as high as possible while still practical for your application

Example of why a slower high BC bullet is better than a faster, low BC bullet.

Comparison of 2 typical .223 loads, G1 BC .414 75gr at 900m/sec (2950fps) on left, G1 BC .249 55gr at 1005m/sec (3300fps) on right.



As you can see, the higher BC bullet at 500 meters has nearly twice the retained energy, half the winddrift, 20% more retained velocity, slightly shorter time of flight, and less drop. The difference in performance of a higher BC bullet over a lower BC bullet increases significantly along with range.

Aside from the other advantages of using a higher BC bullet, why do we care if it reduces the winddrift? Surely if your bullet drifts more, you just correct more? Sure, but less actual drift isn't the end goal. What you really want to achieve is less error when you mis-call the wind.

It is usually almost impossible to call the wind perfectly. What a higher BC bullet does is give you a significantly higher hit probability with small errors in wind calls.

The chart below demonstrates the same 2 bullets as above, with windage values for 1m/sec and 2/msec for each. What this shows is how much error you will have if you mis-call the wind by, for the purpose of this example, 1m/sec. As you can see, the higher BC bullet on the left has an error of 14.7cm when you misread the wind by 1m/sec at 500 meters, whereas the lower BC bullet on the right has error of 24.8cm, nearly double. It can be the difference between a marginal hit or a miss.



You will note that the error for a 1m/sec mis-call of the wind is actually the same as the windage for 1m/sec wind. This is because wind drift increases with wind strength in a linear relationship. Double the wind strength, double the wind drift.

GRAVITY
The most obvious condition that effects your bullet is gravity - it causes it to drop. It is also probably the easiest to correct for. With laser rangefinders it is simple to get a range that is essentially exact, even a cheap chronograph can give you a fairly precise muzzle velocity for your bullet, and with an accurate BC value and good ballistic software you can get very accurate drop data. It can be corrected for by clicking (dialing) your scopes turrets, or by holding over using the reticle. Dialing is the more precise way to correct for drop, reticle holds can work well but are less precise and can lead to problems when you have to compensate for wind or leading a moving target. I personally find it more intuitive as well. Holding over without a reticle for corrections can work at closer ranges but very rapidly becomes extremely inaccurate. Often the correction for your drop is referred to as "elevation".

You can reduce bullet drop by decreasing the time of flight of your bullet. This is done by increasing the speed and/or BC of your bullet. The amount of drop you have is not particularly important, to a point. More drop requires more correction, which becomes a problem as you run out of travel in your scope or room on your reticle for holdovers. Generally speaking you don't have to worry about having too much drop, as, if you are getting enough drop that it is a problem, then you have a BC or muzzle velocity that is too low and you will have major problems hitting anything anyway due to wind etc.

It is often claimed that increasing your muzzle velocity to get less drop gives you a better chance of hitting your target if you have ranging error, but this isn't really true.

Take a .224" 75gr Amax at 900m/sec (2950fps) and 1000m/sec (3300fps) muzzle velocity. That is equivilent to going from a .223 to a .22-250, a large increase in muzzle velocity.



With either bullet if you mis-range 525 meters as 500 meters, your error is .2mil or around 20 centimeters. The additional speed does not give you any significant improvement in room for error with ranging.


WIND
Wind is the hardest environmental variable to correct for. Obviously main effect of wind on your projectile is lateral displacement, although you can on occasion encounter a wind that will have a very minor vertical effect. Wind can be very hard to correct for, as it is not visible, and can vary across the path of the bullet. Wind can be measured using an anemometer or windmeter (such as a kestrel 2500) or estimated by observing effect of the wind on vegetation and other surrounding objects. It takes some practice to estimate wind accurately. Observing movement of vegetation or other objects is obviously the only way to estimate windspeed at any point along the bullet path other than your position.

Here is a list of some observable effects of wind on "things" and relevant speeds in meters per second (which I prefer to work in, see below)

WIND AS SEEN ON A PLASTIC RIBBON (30-40 cm long) M/ SEC
Hangs straight down nil
Barely any movement 0.1
Lifts 10-20° with lazy movement 0,2-0,4
Lifts 30° and swims lazily 0,5-0,7
Lifts 45°. Swims as before, but with steeper angle 1
Lifts 45°. The end lifts to 70-80° and falls back down 1.5
Lifts 70-80° without falling back. More towards 80° when strongest. 2-2,5
Lifts 80°. The end flaps 3-4 times per second. 3-3,5
Lifts closer to 90°. The end flaps 4-5 times per second. 4
The inner bit is straight, the outer tips frequently over 90°. End flaps fast!4.5
Whole ribbon tips over 90°. End is like a propeller. 5
Inner bit a tight wire. Outer bit vibrates. No flapping at end. 5.5
Ribbon a tight wire resting over 90 °. Vibrates. 6
The ribbon is really above 90°. 7+

WIND AS SEEN IN NATURE M/ SEC
Wind can be felt, but difficult to determine direction. 0.5
Some small movement of leaves in trees 1
The wind is light against face, easy to determine direction. 1.5
Continuous movement of leaves in trees 2
A handkerkief lifts 20°. 2
Leafy trees starts "lifting" with the wind 3
Barely movement in the evergreen trees 3
You can hear wind in your ears, but nature sounds are still there. 4
Tussock grass clearly shows wind direction. 4
Leafy crowns are shaped with the wind 4
A handkerkief lifts 70°. 4
Treetops are whipping into the wind 5
You feel the wind combing your hair and tugging at your clothes 5 til 6
Wind will make noise if you open your mouth. 8
Trees are really moving in the wind 8 til 10
Wind gives physical resistance when walking, you lean into it. 10



Wind flows like water, following the effects of terrain. If for example you are on the side of a valley shooting across the valley, the wind can be significantly faster in the middle than at your position. Wind also travels faster higher off the ground, as as that is where your bullet flies it is best to measure wind a couple of meters up rather than right at ground level. Broken, rough or scrubby ground will slow wind down compared to open flat ground. Wind flow can be blocked by terrain features or vegetation like trees. You can also have a condition where the wind is in one direction at your position, and the opposite direction at the targets position.

Wind has varying effect depending on the angle of the wind relative to the bullet path.

Effective wind per direction:

3 oclock or 90 degree to bullet path: 100% effect
2 oclock or 70 degree to bullet path: 90% effect
1:30 or 45 degree to bullet path: 75% effect
1 oclock or 20 degree to bullet path: 50% effect
12 oclock or 0 degree to bullet path: 0% effect



You can also watch mirage through your optic to assess wind strength.

Observed M/SEC
Mirage vertical 0
Slight angle 1
Noticable-steep angle 2-3
Mirage horizontal 4-5


Speed as observed in mirage is effective wind. No need to correct for direction.



There are lots of schools of thought on how to work wind calls. My preferred method is this:


-Work in meters per second (m/sec) for wind speed. Find the correction for appropriate range for 1m/sec full effect wind on your chart

-Assess average wind strength over the path of the bullet

-Assess wind direction, decide roughly what % effect you feel applies

-Multiply 1m/sec correction by average strength over flight, apply % effect.

-ALWAYS CORRECT INTO THE WIND. IF THE WIND IS FROM RIGHT TO LEFT, CORRECT TO THE RIGHT.


For example,

I am shooting at 600 meters. My 1m/s correction as written on my ballistic chart is .6mil for 600 meters. I decide that the wind was 2 m/sec over the path of the bullet, and it is at about a 45 degree direction, my windcall is simply:

.6 x 2 x .75

which gives .9 mil

Very simple maths and easy to do in the head in the field.

1m/s correction x effective strength x % effect


ALWAYS CORRECT INTO THE WIND. IF THE WIND IS FROM RIGHT TO LEFT, CORRECT TO THE RIGHT.

The traditional "10mph" based calculations are harder to do in the head in the field. You can work from 1mph but that is a very fine measurement.

If you want to try that, bear in mind that 1m/sec is roughly 2.2mph, you can convert the above chart for wind effect on vegetation to mph.

Another method is to work out your "Wind factor". Wind factor is a constant rule that you can remember to give you "close enough" values for what your windage for 1m/sec is at various ranges. It will vary somewhat for every calibre/load, you just have to find the pattern for your particular load. For example, here is a basic chart of my 6.5x47 with 140gr Amax:



The pattern for me is that my 1 m/sec correction is roughly "half the hundreds". 600 meters, .3mil or 3 clicks. 1000 meters, .5mil or 5 clicks. It's not perfect, but it is a very simple rule to remember and gets you close enough to be very effective.

To correct for wind you can either dial in into your scope, or hold with your reticle. Dialing is again a more precise aiming point and more intuitive, but it is slower to deal with changing wind conditions and there is more potential for a mistake (Whoops I dialed the wrong way - harder to hold in the wrong direction). It is generally not possible to read the wind perfectly anyway, efforts to correct for it extremely precisely are essentially a waste of time.

And just to make things harder, wind is seldom a static condition, it changes speed and sometimes even direction. So you can either make a momentary windcall, correct for it and shoot immediately, or estimate the max and minimum wind conditions, and "bracket" them. This involves working out what your corrections are for the maximum and minimum wind conditions, and alternating between them according to how the wind "feels" at any given point. You can do this by alternating between reticle holds, or by dialing one extreme and holding for the other. You can also place your "bracket" of wind over your entire target, basically guaranteeing a hit on target if not on your exact desired point of aim.

Also bear in mind that my methods are for "field" or practical shooting. For benchrest, F-class etc, shooting at stationary targets with sighting shots allowed on a square range with little or no time imperative, it is common practice to dial for a wind condition and attempt to only shoot in that condition, or to walk yourself onto the target with sighters, then only shoot in the appropriate wind condition for scoring shots.

There is often a tendancy to be scared of wind and overcompensate or simply refuse to shoot in wind. With some practice you can achieve good practical accuracy. The stronger the wind is, the harder it is.

MECHANICAL ACCURACY
The mechanical accuracy of a rifle/load combination is usually described in terms of "MOA", and is actually technically the precision of the rifle/load combination. I'll explain MOA later, but it is a unit of angular measurement that roughly equates to 1 inch per 100 yards.

What effect does the mechanical accuracy of a rifle have on long range? Well if your rifle does not shoot tight enough groups, then you will not be able to hit your target.You have a rifle that "Shoots MOA". This does not mean it shoots extinct flightless birds from New Zealand. What this means is that every round fired, excluding human or other external influences, should impact within a roughly 1" circle ("Group") at 100 yards. Why do we refer to it in terms of MOA? Because as an angular measurement, we can extend it out easily. A 1MOA group at 100 yards is still 1MOA at 1000 yards (except it's not really, because even in absence of external factors the rate of dispersion doesn't stay constant... but for practical purposes it does). 1MOA at 1000 yards is "roughly" 10 inches, so if you want to shoot a 10" target at 1000 yards, and your rifle shoots 1MOA at 100 yards? You have the required mechanical accuracy.

What standard of accuracy is sufficient for long range? Well, like everything, it depends on your application. If you wish to shoot and be competitive in the target shooting disciplines like F-Class, you want the tightest groups possible - .25MOA consistently perhaps. However if you want to be able to make first round hits on practical targets without being limited by the accuracy of your rifle, for example for hunting/varminting/tactical competitions etc (and this is my particular field of interest and experience) then .5-1MOA groups are adequate. The difference between a .5MOA group and a .25MOA group at 1000 yards is that your bullet will, at most, be 1.25" inches further from point of aim with a .25MOA theoretical "group" or maximum dispersion excluding external factors. That's not a real-world improvement in usable accuracy.


AIR PRESSURE AND ALTITUDE
Air pressure and altitude are largely two sides of the same coin. As you gain altitude, air pressure drops. The effect of air pressure on your bullet is not particularly large, you will never notice it inside 500 meters. As airpressure drops, the BC of your bullet will effectively increase. You will note less drop and time of flight and higher retained energy and velocity. Vice Versa for airpressure increasing. You will notice these effects if you make a sudden large change in altitude or if pressure drops due to weather. You can correct for a change in airpressure from your zero conditions by:

-Having a chart that contains the info in form of a basic rule of "click per 10hPa", which gives you a correction to make to your elevation for every 10hPa deviation from zero conditions

-Having a chart that has columns for specific pressure conditions (makes for a large chart)

-Using a ballistic calculator on PDA or cellphone or similar in the field(will discuss more on these later)

-Making a quick chart for your expected shooting conditions before leaving home

-Using density altitude charts. Use a weather station (such as Kestrel 4500), density altitude calculator or reference chart to determine density altitude, then selecting an appropriate ballistic chart calibrated to that density altitude. More on density altitude later.

When using a weather station such as a Kestrel to correct for pressure, you have to be careful that you are getting the right sort of pressure. If you have the reference altitude in the Kestrel set to whatever altitude you happen to be at, the device is giving you corrected pressure; that is the pressure that you would be at if you were at sea level. If you set the reference altitude in the device to 0 meters above sea level, then it gives you absolute, station or uncorrected pressure.

When making your chart if you want to use pressure as a field then you have to be aware of the difference and set the ballistic calculator accordingly.

TEMPERATURE
Temperature effects your shooting in 2 ways. It changes the density of the air (which along with pressure and humidity gives you a density altitude value), and it can change the muzzle velocity of your load as the burn rate of the powder slows when colder. The effects of tempterature on the air density can be corrected for the same way as pressure if you wish, although they have a much much less significant effect. As it gets colder obviously the air gets denser and your BC effectively drops. Usually when it gets colder however you've either gone up in altitude, or the weather has gotten worse, so pressure and temperature sort of counteract each other to a degree.

The effects on muzzle velocity is best corrected for by chronographing your load year-round to ascertain how much the velocity changes for the temperature range you will be shooting in. You can then either:

-Having a chart that contains the info in form of a basic rule of "click per 10 deg C", which gives you a correction to make to your elevation for every 10 deg C deviation from zero conditions

-Having a chart that has columns for specific temperature conditions (makes for a large chart)

-Using a ballistic calculator on PDA or cellphone or similar in the field(will discuss more on these later)

-Making a quick chart for your expected shooting conditions before leaving home

-Using density altitude charts. Use a weather station (such as Kestrel 4500), density altitude calculator or reference chart to determine density altitude, then selecting an appropriate ballistic chart calibrated to that density altitude. More on density altitude later.

SHOOTING ANGLE
If you are shooting at an angle up or down, the actual horizontal distance between you and your target is less than the measured range from you to your target.



The effect of shooting at angles is not particularly large until you get to extreme angles or long ranges.

Example:


As you can see a 10 degree shooting angle makes minimal difference to impact, even at 750 meters - only .1mil - whereas the more extreme 30 degree shooting angle is causing a .6mil higher impact at only 500 meters.

There is a tendancy for people to vastly over-estimate angles and the effect they have ballistically. The steepest shots you are likely to encounter in the real world are unlikely to be much above 40 degrees. In alpine environments for example, scree slopes are only between about 32 and 37 degrees angle depending on composition. You are likely to have significant problems with shooting position as well as the ballistic effect.

You can use environmental cues like scree slopes to estimate angle, use an inclinometer, you can get small gadget that attach to your rifle called "angle cosine indicators", you can get various rangefinders that give you the angle or a "true ballistic range" (this one isn't great, more in a second), or you can estimate using a fist held out to the horizon, every fist below or above straight out is 10 degrees. I prefer the last method, it's not perfect but it is "good enough" and costs nothing.

To correct for the effects you can:

- Use the rifleman's method, improved or advanced rifleman's method. This basically involves doing trigonometry in the field (multiplying the range or your adjustment for the range by the cosine of the shooting angle), and doesn't give very accurate results. These methods take into account the distance the bullet travels in relation to the earth and give that result but don't include the extra time of flight and air to travel through due to the angle, so you will end up impacting low if you use these rules. The rangefinders that I'm aware of that give you a "True Ballistic Range" are basically doing this maths for you, so you have this problem with them. The ones that give you an pure angle work well for getting the angle.

- Use a ballistic card with columns for angles that you are likely to shoot on, fudge it if you have to work 'between columns' or at a steeper angle than your card, it will work well enough. Pre-calculate the corrections using a ballistic calculator changing the "line of sight" angle as that gives a very accurate result.

- Use a ballistic calculator on a PDA or smartphone or similar in the field.

- Take a wild guess and take a few clicks off your elevation if it's not a very long shot.

WHEN CORRECTING FOR SHOOTING AT AN ANGLE, USE THE WINDAGE CORRECTION FOR THE MEASURED RANGE, NOT THE TRUE HORIZONTAL RANGE. If you range a target at 600 meters but it is only 450 meters horizontal, the bullet still has to fly through that 600 meters of air and is effected by 600 meters of wind.

CANT
Cant is a very popular subject lately, it's more of a shooting technique thing than an environmental variable, but I will mention it here anyway. A lot of people (who happen to be selling anti-cant levels generally) blame it for a lot of things. The basic theory is that if your scope is canted in relation to the earth, then it will not be tracking exactly vertically and you will get horizontal and vertical error. The effect is only minor, but it is a real thing.

You don't need to run out and buy an anti-cant level though. When people address a rifle, they tend to do so in a way that feels natural to them. With anti-cant levels, people level the rifle to the Earth (generally level off the flat scope base), then level the scope to the rifle, then attach another level to something. When they're shooting, they then look at the anti-cant level and say "man, I sure was canting that! I'm glad I bought this level". However, doing this forces them into an unnatural shooting position and the rifle keeps wanting to go back to being "canted", and it causes bad shooting. It's better to simply level the scope to the Earth when the rifle is in a position that is natural to you, and then shoot it. If you're really concerned about whether your rifle is canted or not, take a quick glance over the top of the elevation turret prior to shooting. Without a level forcing you into unnatural positions your brain and natural position will level the rifle for you.

SPIN DRIFT
Spin drift is a phenomenon that is caused by the spin of the bullet imparted by the rifling in the barrel. As the bullet spins either "left" or "right", it drifts in that direction. This drift is extremely small, and often lost in the "noise" of shooter error, wind, etc. It is very hard to measure accurately although it definitely exists, and so it is hard to know how much to correct for it. If you do see it, it is unlikely to be measurable until past 700 meters or so.

CORIOLIS
The Coriolis effect is not worth worrying about. The effect is minimal at sensible shooting ranges. If you really want to know what it is, the wikipedia article explains it a lot better than I can anyway.

HUMIDITY
Atmospheric humidity has negligable effect on your bullet for long range shooting. It is a component of density altitude, but you can basically forget about it.

Chart showing effect of humidity on 140gr 6.5mm Amax at 830m/sec:



.1mil or 1 click difference in impact between 0% and 100% at 1000 meters, no difference inside 1000m. Set your calculator to 50% for all calculations and forget about humidity.


THE FURTHER OUT YOU GO, THE MORE EFFECT ALL THESE VARIABLES HAVE.


Key points:
-Use a high BC bullet
-Drop is easy to correct for with range, velocity, BC and ballistic software
-Don't get too concerned about chasing tiny groups if you're interested in practical LR shooting, MOA is fine
-Wind is hardest to correct for
-Dial or hold into direction of wind
-Pressure down = bullet up
-Temperature down = speed down
-Angle up or down = bullet impacts high if extreme angle or long range
-Don't use riflemans rule/improved riflemans rule/advanced riflemans rule
-Adjust windage for full measured range when shooting on an angle
-Fist = 10 degrees angle
-Correct cant with technique rather than gadgets
-Spin drift = don't correct if you don't see effect. Negligible at most practical ranges.
-Coriolis = forget
-Humidity = forget.

gimpsuitjones fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Feb 29, 2012

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gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

Shooting


The process of making a long range shot at a target is essentially this:




Be prepared

Find and indentify target

Get into position

Obtain range of target

Corrections to scope

Shoot

Observe Effect



I will break this down step by step. Efficiency and simplicity are key.


BE PREPARED

What do you need to do to be prepared for a long range shot?

You need to have good data, a good zero, the proper technique, an efficient, simple system, and be ready and able to use it.


Data

What data is required? First, you have to have ballistic information. To get this, you need to have accurate chronograph data of your load's muzzle velocity. Take the average of several rounds, and chronograph throughout the year to keep track of variations in velocity due to temperature. LOG EVERYTHING. LOG EVERYTHING. When you have chronograph data, you need the BC for your bullet, then you need to decide how you are going to work your ballistic data. Basically there are several options:

-You can use a PDA or smartphone in the field/at the range with ballistic software on it. I don't like this option. While it is undeniably the most accurate solution, it is also significantly slower, there is much potential for error - it's very easy to input something wrong, skip a field, it's a possible "weak link" with batteries going flat or any other failure that electronic devices are prone to. Also it's hard to keep "on the rifle" which slows the process down again.


-Paper charts. There are so many different types of paper chart that you can go with. The key is to keep it simple, with no unnecessary data.




This is a very simple chart. Pre-calculated using ballistic software for predicted shooting conditions. Adequately accurate to practical ranges, simple, fast and efficient. Not good if conditions change, little detail.



I also have a more comprehensive chart, covering most variables that may arise. Columns for:
Range - self explanatory
Up - Elevation
Click moves zero - useful for when your target is "between" the ranges on your card - this value is how many meters 1 click moves your zero at that range. So if at 700 meters 1 click moves your zero 7 meters and your target is at 725 meters, you move up 3 more clicks, presto, close to 725 meter zero. More accurate than "fudging" between the 700 and 750 on your chart, less space intensive than having 25 meter intervals on your chart.
Spindrift - there if you need it
Wind - per 1m/sec
Correction for pressure
Correction for temperature
Killzone - also known as killing window, dangerspace. The "Window" of ranges between which your bullet will strike a certain distance above or below your zero. For example, 600 meter zero, between 585 meters and 615 meters I know my bullet will still hit a target, don't need to know exact range/zero. Useful for hunting or other targets that move closer/farther away
Angle - self explanatory
Lead - mil lead for a walking animal


You can also use density altitude. Density altitude is a combination of temperature, air pressure and humidity to give you a "density altitude" value. It's widely used in aviation. You can have wildly different combinations of temp/pressure that result in the same density altitude. For DA you need to make several cards similar to the first chart above, each corresponding to a different DA, covering the range that you are likely to shoot in. Then using a weather meter with a DA feature, or a paper DA reference chart, you select the appropriate one. This works pretty well and is a popular method. The flaw is that you have to carry several cards with you. If anyone is interested I can expand on density altitude later.



-BDC (Ballistic Drop Compensator) turret on your scope. This is an elevation turret that with ranges inscribed on it at the appropriate points, so you simply range your target, dial to the range on the scope, and you have your elevation set. They are very very fast and if you keep in mind simple "rules of thumb" for pressure etc that you have worked out first, then they can be very accurate in different conditions etc.


Aside from calculated data, when you are shooting, LOG EVERYTHING. Compare real-world results to calculated results. You may have big variation from your calculated results due to bad chrono speeds, scope that doesn't click stated value, etc. If you have your results logged you can go back and "fudge" the numbers in the calculator to make it fit, by changing the velocity and/or BC value until your real-world data fits what the program says. It pays to double-check that you have all the correct information in the calculator before you start secondguessing it, they tend to suffer from "poo poo in = poo poo out". It is very useful and informative to LOG EVERYTHING. Note date, temperature, pressure, speed if chronographing, rds fired, range/adjustment/adjustment required to hit, wind, everything.


Zero

To make effective use of your data, you need to have a good zero. This is essentially the point at which your point of aim co-incides with your point of impact, and you set your turrets to "0" adjustment from here. I believe 100 meters is the best range to zero at, the majority of the time. It is far enough that you can get a precise zero (you can have error at say 25m that is barely noticable yet severe at 100 meters) but not so far that wind or other environmental factors move your zero.


Some people like to zero further out, but there are flaws with this. Take a 300 meter zero. First you have to either actually zero your rifle at 300 meters - at that range you can be building wind or other environmental factors into your zero. This means your zero can change significantly when you change conditions, and a changed zero means all your downrange data is off. This can especially be a problem when you have a big drop in temperature. 100 meter zero on the other hand is close enough that it doesn't move enough that you can even correct for it.

Having a correct zero is essential for your ballistic chart to work correctly. Any error in your zero at 100 meters is magnified the further out you go.

Proper technique
There is no point attempting to hit targets at long range if you are not able to hit them at closer range in the absence of environmental factors. Shooting groups is not particularly useful practice. Instead, at the 100 meter range, practice getting in position and putting a single shot into a practical sized target quickly, then repeat. If you find yourself hitting 1moa targets everytime at 100 meters, move to .75moa, or .5moa.

An efficient, simple system that you are ready and able to use
You can have all the data and equipment in the world and it will be no good to you if you don't have it organised in a manner that makes it simple to use and if you're not familiar with it. For success, minimise as much as possible. Keep charts easilyaccessible, only have what you need on them, be familiar with your rifle and scope. It's common to see people lying behind a rifle and not knowing which way to turn the turret to achieve the desired correction. This is not being prepared.


GET INTO POSITION

Once you have spotted your target and identified it as your target, find a suitable spot to shoot from. It is better to take a couple of seconds longer to find a usable shooting position than to drop down in a bad place and find that you have to move.

When getting in position, look over the muzzle of your rifle at the target, and attempt to point your rifle at the target as you put it down. This makes it a lot easier to find the target in your scope.

To get in prone position behind the rifle, kneel just behind it with the buttstock aligned with the centre of your body/groin. Put your hands on the ground on either side of the buttstock and kick your legs out straight behind you. If you have the right position when kneeling, the rifle should be exactly in position to lift to your shoulder and be basically ready to shoot. Legs spread wide, ankles flat on the ground, body straight behind rifle, hips flat on the ground. Lying straight behind the rifle as opposed to at an angle to the rifle is vastly better for recoil control, spotting your own shots and follow-up shots.

Range your target once in position, if you range as soon as you spot it, it can move, or you may have to move to find a decent shooting position.

RANGE

There are several ways you can obtain the range of your target.

-Laser rangefinder (LRF). These are now cheap, commonly available, accurate, and the easiest and most accurate way to obtain the range of unknown distance targets in the field.

-Mil ranging. This involves measuring the size of your target relative to a mil-radian marked reticle and using maths to work out the range. You need an accurate mil reticle and you need to know the exact size of your target.

If you know the size of your target in millimeters, then the maths is simple:

Range (meters) = Size of target(MM) / Size of target (mil)

A 400mm steel plate, measures .5 mil in scope? Range is 800 meters.


If you want to work in yards and inches, the traditional formula is:

Range (yards) = 1000/36 x Size of target (inches) / Size of target (mils)

This can also be expressed as

Range (yards) = 27.7777778 x Size of target (inches) / Size of target (mils)


Immediately you can see that it is a lot more maths - you have a 15 inch steel plate that measures .5mil in your scope now. How many yards away is it? I don't know and I can't do that maths in my head quickly. (It's 833 yards). It is not possible for the vast majority of people to quickly multiply by 27.7777778 in the field.


Another formua for mil ranging with imperial measurements is:

Range (yards) = 1000x Size of target (Yards) / Size of target (mil)

The problem with this that you have to work with your target size in decimal parts of yards. 15 inches becomes .41666666666 yards. Doing maths with this sort of number in your head is difficult, and if you round it to .4 yards, suddenly you have a ranging error of 33 yards. That is enough to cause you to miss entirely. You don't need to introduce error from your maths into the already dubiously accurate mil ranging scenario.


Mil ranging is largely an "educated guess" ranging method. You get error if the target is not exactly square to you, if you don't know the exact size of the target, if the target is moving, if there is heavy mirage, if the target is partially obscured. Even in ideal conditions it is hard to mil accurately and a small error gives you enough ranging error to miss entirely. The difference between an 8 inch target covering .3 or .4 mils in your scope is 550 or 750 yards.

It will get you "close enough" to spot + follow up if you are lacking a rangefinder, and it is useful in conditions where your rangefinder doesn't work (electronic, can fail, battery flat, heavy rain or dust in the air can interfere) or where you can't use your rangefinder (military at night, can't go flashing lasers around. Unless you buy that swiss one that has a laser that is NVG invisible). The further out you go, the less useful mil ranging is because errors become much more significant.

I strongly recommend that you work in metric if you want to mil range. It is much easier and faster. There is no reason to work in imperial - you have to know the size of the target beforehand, so if you're given it in yards, inches, or hogsfeet convert it to millimeters. Now you have very simple maths.

To convert yard ranges to meters, take off 9%, vice versa, add 9%.

1000 yards = 914 meters. Taking 9% off only gave me an error of 4 meters, I can live with that, it's not enough to cause a miss.

1000 meters = 1093 yards. Adding 9% gives me an error of 3 yards.

And that is at a very long distance. Closer range... 500 meters + 9% = 545 yards. Actual conversion, 546 yards. Close enough.

This is a useful rule to remember if you are shooting with someone who has a rangefinder that read in yards and your chart is marked in meters or similar situations.

-Map and compass. If you know your position on a topographic map of suitable scale, and the targets position, you can get an approximate range to target. Not particularly accurate but better than nothing.

-GPS. If setting up targets to shoot and you don't have a rangefinder, you can mark them in your GPS as points and your GPS will give you the distance to them. This is accurate but you have to go to the target location to mark it accurately, so not very useful for situations like hunting or targets at unknown distance competitions.

CORRECTIONS TO SCOPE

Once you have obtained range, dial elevation correction immediately. Also dial spin drift for that range if you use this correction.

You should already know the temperature and air pressure (or density altitude) you're using. This comes under "being prepared". Don't find a target, get in position then pull out the weather station and start trying to get that information, that is not efficiency. Have this information ready prior to being in a shooting situation. If you choose to you software on a PDA or smartphone, have it all set up and ready so that once you find a target and drop into position, you simply have to enter range and wind to get the solution.

Correct for angle if necessary.

Likewise, you should try to be constantly aware of the wind, to have a rough idea of what it is doing. It is a lot faster and more efficient when you are in a shooting situation if you have been watching vegetation etc beforehand. Make windcall and either apply clicks to scope or hold.

Check parallax on scope if you have it.

SHOOTING

Your rifle should be supported in some way, whether by bipod, backpack, sandbag etc, and pointing roughly at the target, and you should be roughly in the position you will shoot from. Use a small rear bag for supporting the buttstock. If this isn't possible, support the buttstock with the web of your support hand, fingers on your bicep, thumb on your pectoral. With a rear bag you want to have your thumb and first finger on your support hand on opposing sides of the buttstock for horizontal control, and the other 3 fingers and palm of your hand squeezing the bag lightly for vertical support. Avoid too much contact with the stock with this hand. The butt of the rifle should be firmly in "the pocket" between your anterior deltoid and pectoral. Your body should be in a position where you do not have to use any muscular tension in your arms to support the rifle. Weight evenly on both elbows. If you have any muscular tension in your body, adjust position to remove it. Hips and ankles flat on the ground, legs spread and straight. The higher off the ground your rifle is, the less stable your position is. Get as low to the ground as possible.

Find your target through your scope. Your cheek should be resting lightly and comfortably on the comb of the stock, and you should be able to see clearly through your scope with no "shadow" around the edges from this position. If you cannot see through your optic you need to raise the comb of your stock (with an adjustable cheekpiece, strap-on cheekpiece, or some tape and foam) or lower the optic. Do not put too much pressure on the rifle with your cheek. Once you've found your target, check your natural point of aim. If it is correct, the rifle should point at the target without any need to "push" it on target with muscle tension. If your natural point of aim is off, move your body to correct it horizontally, rear bag to correct vertically. Make sure that the rifle/reticle are not ridiculously canted.

Lean your bodyweight lightly into your bipod if you are using one, you can push with your toes to do this. Again, not too much pressure. Some bipods are better than others in this regard. Harris in particular have a tendancy to simply slide fowards when you lean into them on a lot of surfaces. If you are using a bipod make sure that there is no lateral tension between the legs after moving if you have to reposition the rifle.

Grip the pistol grip of the rifle firmly with the palm and last 3 fingers of your trigger hand, with your first joint of your first finger resting on the trigger. Not too hard, a firm handshake. Thumb rests on top of stock out of the way, don't put any pressure on anything with it.

When you intend to fire, breathe out, empty your lungs. If you're not able to fire after a couple of seconds, breathe again. Don't try to hold breath in or out, it's not beneficial for stability.

Squeeze the trigger when your reticle is correctly aligned with the target and everything else is correct. Some people say that your trigger breaking should be a 'surprise' but this is incorrect. You should know the exact pressure and travel required to break your trigger, because only then can you fire when you want to. Apply only rearward pressure with your trigger finger, and squeeze, don't jerk or pull.

OBSERVE EFFECT

When you fire, immediately assess whether or not you thought the shot was good. Did you pull off target, did it "feel" wrong? If the shot "felt" bad, immediately work the bolt for a followup shot. When working the bolt, try not to use fine motor movements, use the "V" between your thumb and first finger, or the palm of your hand. Don't use too much force when working the bolt, as you'll cause the rifle to move off target. If a shot felt bad, ignore any corrections from your spotter (if you have one) and immediately fire again without waiting to spot impact.

If the shot felt good, watch through your scope for impact and/or wait for corrections from your spotter. Don't work the bolt immediately if the shot felt good, as you won't be able to spot the impact.

If working with a spotter, keep dialogue to a minimum. Speak clearly and concisely. Shooter gets ready and in position and indicates that he is ready. If you are spotting, set up on target but don't stare through your spotting scope while the shooter gets ready, you'll only dry/fatigue your eye. Sit behind shooter if possible, to avoid interference with your spotting scope from muzzle blast. Once shooter is ready, then look through scope and indicate when you are ready to spot. Watch for the "trace" of the bullet. This is disturbed air around the bullet in flight, you can essentially see the bullet. Behind and above the shooter is the best position to spot trace, and it does require certain light conditions. You can often follow the trace all the way to impact, but be careful not to mistake trace for impact. It is common for people to see a bit of the trace near the target and call it as the impact, when the impact is actually lower. When spotting impacts on hanging steel or animals it is also common for the bullet to impact low, flying under the target and impacting behind. This makes it look like a high miss.

When calling corrections only give the shooter what he needs to know to make a follow up shot. Hit or miss, and corrections, eg "Miss, 1 mil up .5 left"

Don't mix units, keep things simple and short. If you don't see impact, "not seen". Always give corrections necessary to achieve a centre hit. Make sure that you know what units your shooter is working in!

As shooter, if you have a good position, you should be able to make a followup shot very quickly and accurately. It is good to practice this and bolt manipulation at the 100 meter range, have someone direct you for when to fire (either by counting down, or calling "shoot" whatever) and then immediately fire a fast followup shot. With practice you can get very fast and accurate. A good shooter with a bolt action can be faster than an un-trained shooter with a semi-auto.





So, to make a long range shot.


Be prepared

Find and indentify target

Get into position

Obtain range of target

Corrections to scope

Shoot

Observe Effect





And remember, SIMPLICITY AND EFFICIENCY. Minimise maths, minimise equipment and gadgets, while using what is most effective.

gimpsuitjones fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Feb 29, 2012

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

reserved for 'equipment'

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

reserved for 'something'

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

Sorry it's all a bit "wall of text" at the moment, my internet is slow and I can't upload images much.


The funny thing is it's so much drat writing but it's only a really basic overview and I've skipped out a lot of things.



I'm going to go get some food. I'll get the rest of it up later.

gimpsuitjones fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Feb 29, 2012

kwantam
Mar 25, 2008

-=kwantam


GSJ, you are the loving man.

Propagandalf
Dec 6, 2008

itchy itchy itchy itchy

Long Range Thread V2: Longer Than Ever.

charliebravo77
Jun 11, 2003



Holy poo poo I need to dedicate an afternoon to reading this.

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

charliebravo77 posted:

Holy poo poo I need to dedicate an afternoon to reading this.

I need to spend a day editing it and adding some sweet graphics.

Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

Ten minutes of editing and 23h50m of uploading images on a 56k line.


The k stands for kiwi.

moosepoop
Mar 9, 2007

GET SWOLE


I will probably be done reading this op in time for my .338LM rifle to arrive

A Magical Unicorn
Mar 21, 2010

by Y Kant Ozma Post


gimpsuitjones posted:

amazing OP
I'm looking forward to your calibre discussion. Not sure if you've seen it but Mr Litz has a PDF called What’s Wrong With .30 Caliber?

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

Yeah, I saw that at the time that he wrote it, I think I linked it in the old thread a few times. I could basically just link to it as my calibre selection section.


The article is actually somewhat out of date now as Berger have 215gr and 230gr .30 cal VLD bullets and Hornady have introduced a 225gr Open Tip Match bullet, making .30 cal more competitive with 7mm/.338 again in large magnums.




Edited some stuff. I'll keep tweaking it for clarity over the next couple of days and adding more images/explanations as I go.

I guess my goal with this is that it be a fairly comprehensive basic "how-to" covering all the important aspects of long range shooting, so that a beginner can read this and take information away that will help them to shoot targets at long range.

gimpsuitjones fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Feb 29, 2012

DkHelmet
Jul 10, 2001

I pity the foal...


This is awesome, thanks for the effort. My next purchase will probably be some kind of 600 yard beast and this will really help dial in what I want/need.

C2C - 2.0
May 14, 2006

Dubs In The Key Of Life


Lipstick Apathy

Hallelujah! Thanks for this, GSJ!

Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



Are there any good Android ballistic calculator apps?

I see this one on Amazon, but it's .

BeanTaco
Apr 14, 2011



kwantam posted:

GSJ, you are the loving man.

DrakeriderCa
Feb 3, 2005

But I'm a real cowboy!

GSJ you're moderately underwhelming and I can't believe there are no short shorts in this OP

also I've been building my LR rifle since the old thread was like 3 pages long but it's almost done

pazrs
Mar 27, 2005


Mad Dragon posted:

Are there any good Android ballistic calculator apps?

I see this one on Amazon, but it's .

I found 'Strelok' useful enough for quick calcs at the range.

charliebravo77
Jun 11, 2003



I bought Shooter, seems worth the money.

BeanTaco
Apr 14, 2011



Some people may be interested in this so w/e

What does M.O.A stand for?

Lets talk about a one M.O.A group. That means the furthest distance between any two holes in your 100 yard away target are seperated by an inch. Imagine 2 lines going from these holes back to your gun. The angle between these two lines will be almost exactly one sixtieth (1/60) of a degree. This is called one "minute" of a degree (this is stupid but eh)
M.O.A then stands for "Minute of Angle" (minute as in time, say it that way or you are a scrub) and is the unit used to measure the angular seperation of the straight lines going to the furthest apart holes in your target.
So a "1 M.O.A" rifle should give you approx 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards, 1 inch at 100, 2 at 200 etc. Note however this isn't how M.O.A is defined, but just what it approximately translates to. Also, you wouldn't expect a 1 M.O.A rifle to give 5 inch groups at 500 yards because ballistic/environmental factors come increasingly into play.
So now you know

E: I keep revising this because talking about angles is hard. I'll make a diagram this weekend and put it up.

BeanTaco fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Mar 2, 2012

Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



BeanTaco posted:

Imagine 2 lines going from these holes back to your gun. The angle between these two lines will be almost exactly one sixtieth (1/60) of a degree. This is called one "minute" of a degree (this is stupid but eh)
Why is it stupid? 1/60 of a degree is a minute. 1/60 of that is a second. Would you rather use radians?

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Mad Dragon posted:

Why is it stupid? 1/60 of a degree is a minute. 1/60 of that is a second. Would you rather use radians?

Yeah.

BeanTaco
Apr 14, 2011



I would rather measure in 1/100 of a degree, which is admittedly a bit inconsistent when 60*60=360 degrees.
I just feel like splitting something into "minutes" and "seconds" to describe 1/60 of a unit strange when 1/100 comes more naturally
e: also I use radians but I don't expect people to give up on their precious "degrees" in a hobby that still largely uses imperial measurements.

Easychair Bootson
May 7, 2004

Where's the last guy?
Ultimo hombre.
Last man standing.
Must've been one.


BeanTaco posted:

Lets talk about a one M.O.A group. That means the furthest distance between any two holes in your 100 yard away target are seperated by an inch.
Your explanation would be a lot better if you completely removed this part. The definition of a group that measures a minute of angle has nothing to do with inches or yards. I'm not just trying to be pedantic, I just think that it should be stressed that we're not working backwards from 1" at 100 yards to figure out what MOA is.

NovemberMike
Dec 28, 2008



Yeah, the important thing about MOA measurements is that it doesn't matter how far away you measure from, you still get the same value.

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"

Grimey Drawer

Skimmed OP, saw no mention of shooting across the channel at England with home-brew V2 rockets, voted 1.

Fog Tripper
Mar 3, 2008

by Smythe


gimpsuitjones posted:





There seems to be a bipod attached to that firearm, Gimp.

Ninja Rope
Oct 22, 2005

Wee.


NovemberMike posted:

Yeah, the important thing about MOA measurements is that it doesn't matter how far away you measure from, you still get the same value.

It's probably worth mentioning that 1 MOA works out to be about 1" per 100 yards since that's how MOA is generally used in conversations about firearms. Also worth noting is that it does not mean 1" at any distance, as I've seen some people state.

Vindolanda
Feb 13, 2012

It's just like him too, y'know?


For really goofy pointless long range shooting I like two hundred meter shots with a .17 HMR.
It's mostly a matter of luck and prayers, but those few tight groups in times of still air - what a feeling! (I live in Scotland - it's all wind all the time, and hell on light bullets).

Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

Vindolanda posted:

For really goofy pointless long range shooting I like two hundred meter shots with a .17 HMR.
It's mostly a matter of luck and prayers, but those few tight groups in times of still air - what a feeling! (I live in Scotland - it's all wind all the time, and hell on light bullets).

What's Scotland's gun law like? Identical to England, under general UK rules, or individually separate?

BeanTaco
Apr 14, 2011



GroovinPickle posted:

Your explanation would be a lot better if you completely removed this part. The definition of a group that measures a minute of angle has nothing to do with inches or yards. I'm not just trying to be pedantic, I just think that it should be stressed that we're not working backwards from 1" at 100 yards to figure out what MOA is.

Yeah I was trying to think of a good starting point to work with, and that's what most people think of. I do say it is the measure of an angle, and that 1 inch at 100 yards is ~about~ 1 M.O.A.
I will edit that post when/as I think of better ways of describing it.

kimihia
Feb 1, 2002


Dinosaur Gum

Hopefully we can do some long range shooting this weekend.



These are some target plates. I requested Bisalloy Bisplate 500 (PDF) as that is what has been recommended. Something that can take the hammering.

We ended up getting 230 x 230 "WP 360", 10mm thick with two 14mm diameter holes. from Profile Cutting Services in East Tamaki, Auckland. Plasma cutting for holes in corner was extra. (Pictured above.)

For shooting them we'll be adding a coat of white rattle can paint and hanging them off trees, wood frames, bent wire, or whatever we can scavenge. We're not terribly prepared.

I have heard people suggest old firehose with a bolt through it, as that can take multiple bullets before failing. Nothing quite like having to walk a kilometre back to your target because you shot a little high.

BeanTaco, you're invited if markoshark manages to get hold of you.

BeanTaco
Apr 14, 2011



kimihia posted:

BeanTaco, you're invited if markoshark manages to get hold of you.

He just called now!
But I can't come maybe next time.

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

kimihia posted:

Hopefully we can do some long range shooting this weekend.



These are some target plates. I requested Bisalloy Bisplate 500 (PDF) as that is what has been recommended. Something that can take the hammering.

We ended up getting 230 x 230 "WP 360", 10mm thick with two 14mm diameter holes. from Profile Cutting Services in East Tamaki, Auckland. Plasma cutting for holes in corner was extra. (Pictured above.)

For shooting them we'll be adding a coat of white rattle can paint and hanging them off trees, wood frames, bent wire, or whatever we can scavenge. We're not terribly prepared.

I have heard people suggest old firehose with a bolt through it, as that can take multiple bullets before failing. Nothing quite like having to walk a kilometre back to your target because you shot a little high.

BeanTaco, you're invited if markoshark manages to get hold of you.

Buy some waratahs, they're like 6 bucks each. 2 per plate, a sledgehammer and some No8 wire and you can hang targets wherever you want

Vindolanda
Feb 13, 2012

It's just like him too, y'know?


Gtab posted:

What's Scotland's gun law like? Identical to England, under general UK rules, or individually separate?

It's...complicated. English, Scottish and Welsh law are all, as far as gun ownership go, identical (I think). I'm not sure about Northern Ireland, they have some special laws, given the recent unpleasantness. The thing is that individual police forces interpret the laws differently, and grant shotgun and firearm certificates differently.

Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

Vindolanda posted:

It's...complicated. English, Scottish and Welsh law are all, as far as gun ownership go, identical (I think). I'm not sure about Northern Ireland, they have some special laws, given the recent unpleasantness. The thing is that individual police forces interpret the laws differently, and grant shotgun and firearm certificates differently.

Ah, discretion being the better part of valor law. It sounds like your 5-0 are at least friendly enough to give you a target rifle for some fun.

Vindolanda
Feb 13, 2012

It's just like him too, y'know?


Gtab posted:

Ah, discretion being the better part of valor law. It sounds like your 5-0 are at least friendly enough to give you a target rifle for some fun.

Not quite a target rifle, rather one of the Anschutz small game range - I'll post a box thread when I'm back from university, given that I have about the most British set of arms out of anyone I know. I'm afraid I'll disappoint Cyrano though, I've not got any SMLEs.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Vindolanda posted:

I'm not sure about Northern Ireland, they have some special laws, given the recent unpleasantness. The thing is that individual police forces interpret the laws differently, and grant shotgun and firearm certificates differently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_p...orthern_Ireland

Carry for personal protection is actually legal in some circumstances.

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Vindolanda
Feb 13, 2012

It's just like him too, y'know?


Craptacular posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_p...orthern_Ireland

Carry for personal protection is actually legal in some circumstances.

Semi-automatic allowed? Time to emigrate, I think. I live on a sporting estate, and we have a large fox problem; I found a book written just after the post Hungerford Massacre laws, pretty much saying:
"The AR-15 is the best rifle for fox. You can't have it anymore. The FAL is the second-best rifle for fox. You can't have it either."
Oh well, I get guns that let me do everything I need to, I suppose.

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