Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«289 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Shifty Pony
Dec 28, 2004

Up ta somethin'




College Slice

ButWhatIf posted:

Earlier someone had a question about separation anxiety and how to help combat it. I typed up a lengthy post on the subject of sep anx and treating it here. It's kind of spergy because it came directly out of my SSCS course notes, but it might be helpful.

Thank you. Hopefully by incorporating some of those ideas I can keep it from ever happening in the first place. Placing a bird feeder in view of the crate (with a shade covering it when not crate time) and keeping comings and goings low key both seem like they will be fairly simple to do.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

ButWhatIf
Jun 24, 2009

HA HA HA


CaptBubba posted:

Thank you. Hopefully by incorporating some of those ideas I can keep it from ever happening in the first place. Placing a bird feeder in view of the crate (with a shade covering it when not crate time) and keeping comings and goings low key both seem like they will be fairly simple to do.

The most important one, in my opinion, is not allowing your dog to shadow you about the house when you are home. Encouraging lots of healthy independent behavior can go a long way toward preventing sep anx, and teaching things like distance stays where you can incorporate your disappearance from view is helpful from an obedience standpoint as well!

pat_b
Feb 14, 2009


Fallen Rib

Okay so I adopted a dog last week. It's a beagle mix, female, and the shelter thinks she's about four.

She's great in a lot of ways; she doesn't bark, is very friendly with everyone and everything (but very shy and submissive), took right to her crate and appears to be housetrained. She loves walks and runs too. There's a number of things I have questions about however.

One, she won't poop consistently. I've had her since Friday, and she's only done it twice. She pees fine, I guess, but just doesn't seem to want to do number two. She did it the evening I took her home, and on a walk Sunday morning. Is there something I can do to get her to do this consistently?

She also barely eats. She'll eat a few kibbles here and there. I've been feeding her once in the morning and evening, and I only leave the food out for a little bit. Will she start eating more? This worries me because I have been taking her for quite a bit of exercise and I don't want her to get malnourished.

Another thing is, I have no idea how to reward her for good behavior. She doesn't respond well to anything that is a convenient reward, like praise or treats. When I give her praise she either ignores it or is submissive, though I can't read her mind so I don't know if she is enjoying it or not. She reluctantly takes a treat or two from me but will stop taking them altogether after that. She loves pig ears and walks but those are not small rewards. She also HATES the clicker. She just shuts down when I use it, and stops responding to whatever I'm trying to associate it with, even the pig ears. So I'm not sure how to use positive reinforcement with her.
I haven't tried every treat under the sun, but I've tried the following to little success: pupperoni beef, milk biscuits, venison jerky treats, and honey nut cheerios, and some cheese, which she didn't want at all.

Finally, she has no idea how to play with a ball or a stuffed toy. These are the only toys I've tried so far, because they aren't cheap. Can I teach her to play with them? It wouldn't be a big deal but I'm worried that she gets bored laying around the house in between walks.

Any suggestions? Should I just give her more time to get adjusted? I've enrolled her in a training course that starts in April but it's hard to train her when I don't know what she responds to.

Andohz
Aug 15, 2004

World's Strongest Smelly Hobo

It takes awhile for the dog to adjust to a new home, our puppy took about two weeks before she started to act outgoing and really happy. It's a pretty stressful thing to suddenly live somewhere new with someone she doesn't know at all, just give it time and she'll probably come out of her shell.

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.


ButWhatIf posted:

I'm really skeptical about the addition of the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test in the OP. There's no actual science behind it and it uses all manner of outdated concepts ("elevation dominance" = does puppy struggle when lifted off the ground, lol) to gauge which puppies are supposedly right for which families. The testers don't even use the same methods as one another, and they assume a whole ton about things like "obedience," which they gauge by seeing if a puppy has a natural retrieve drive. It's largely a waste of time and makes way too many assumptions about the individual puppies on one single occasion.
Agreed. A devoted breeder will see so much more from the puppies than a test ever could tell, that I'd just recommend finding a good breeder and listening to their advice. I personally pick the puppies for each family at six weeks. Nobody has complained about a bad selection even though not all have gotten the puppy they've wanted originally. I've also tried the test, but I don't think it contributed much to my selection process, so I don't do that anymore.

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

pat_b posted:

Beagle mix problems

The beagle that doesn't love food hasn't been invented yet. Have you guys been to the vet yet? I assume that's on the dockett very soon to make sure something else isn't going on. Like Andohz said, some of this is settling in to his new environment.

As far as shutting down with the clicker, it's impossible to say what's causing that, but you should be able to counter-condition it with the right treats after he gets more comfortable at home. In addition to what you've already tried I'd recommend that you try boiled chicken, peanut butter and different cheeses. If you tried slices of American, try string cheese or vice versa.

ButWhatIf/Riiseli posted:

We hate the Volhardt test
It's almost as if we were familiar with all of these concepts when we wrote the document. If you'll go back and read again, you'll note that we put in heavy disclaimers regarding the long term accuracy and suggested that it is only applicable to young puppy-hood at best. In addition we've armed readers with more information on what's out there and what's being used, as well as how best to interpret that information for their own best interests.

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.


MrFurious posted:

It's almost as if we were familiar with all of these concepts when we wrote the document. If you'll go back and read again, you'll note that we put in heavy disclaimers regarding the long term accuracy and suggested that it is only applicable to young puppy-hood at best. In addition we've armed readers with more information on what's out there and what's being used, as well as how best to interpret that information for their own best interests.
I didn't realize discussion about one's personal experiences was prohibited. I also don't think I indicated that I hate the test. And with an indecisive and uninformed breeder I might even ask for one to be done, but I'd recommend picking a devoted breeder and trusting their judgement as a better alternative. If one is looking for a pet, it can certainly be done. I'm not always able to do so as I'm choosing based solely on the combination (parents and pedigree) as I'm looking to breed from the puppy, if it turns out ok.

For any Euros with their stupid laws I want to re-post this (with minor revisions) little bit of information on how a puppy can be handled without a crate. This is in no way a comprehensive guide and you should seek for additional advice (from the breeder preferably), when dealing with a puppy.

quote:

I've been asked about how it works without a crate and with people spending 9 hours a day away from the home...

A puppy is brought home at 7-8-9(-12) weeks and has usually learned (at least somewhat) to eliminate on paper (or more rarely on a pee pad) and outdoors. Before the puppy arrives people puppy proof the area where the puppy will spend most of it's time. Depending on the situation it is the whole apartment/house to a portion of a larger room. Wire compost bins are usually used to help make a place puppy proof. Area rugs are removed, unless the floor is slippery and the puppy is from a bigger breed. Hardwood floors can be protected at the designated potty area w/ a piece of vinyl flooring. I'd get some from a hardware store. This will be an even cheaper solution, if you can get a roll end.

Quite a few people allow their dogs to sleep in the same room as them and some allow the dogs to sleep in the bed with them (I do as my dogs don't really do that). If they don't want the puppy in the bedroom, it's the mattress treatment for a few nights ie. people sleep on a mattress with the puppy in the room the puppy is supposed to sleep alone. Most puppies are ok to sleep in a separate room after that. People start training separation from the get go. Leave the room for a moment, exit through the front door and enter soon etc. If they are working up to 8hrs a day (+ travel), the puppies are left alone in a puppy proof area from the get go during that time. Most trouble due to boredom can be observed around the five-eight month mark. A younger puppy just doesn't have the energy to destroy stuff or to be that vocal. Some dogs never have issues, some people have to get even a new couch as their young dog decided to remodel the old one right out of the blue.

The puppies eliminate indoors, if nobody is there to take them out or if you don't get there in time. Most stop eliminating at night around the age of four months and all together around six-seven-eight months of age, which is when papers or pee pads are removed. Some take until they are a year old. But they too do stop. Usually the papers or pee pads are placed close to a door, so ideally you'll be able to tell when the puppy start gravitating towards the designated potty place. Dogs really don't want to soil their nest. So much so that they learn without crating. Some are even so particular about their nests, that they won't eliminate in the back yard after they've grown up.

Currently I have three intact bitches w/ 8+ hr bladders that have not really been taught to indicate their need to go in any special way. They just get really anxious, pace around, whine and even scratch the door, if they have to get out extra. If one of my dogs has an upset stomach while I'm away and really needs to go, she'll jump over the pet gate that separates our dining room from the rest of the apartment and takes care of her business there. It's farthest from her sleeping area she can get to at that time. I don't think I'd be jumping fences with an upset tummy, so I think that sort of illustrates how strong their desire to not soil the nest really is.

edit:

MrFurious posted:

In Europe, crate training is illegal and frowned upon because of the association of crates and puppy mills.
Crating being illegal and being frowned upon has nothing to do with puppy mills as the law and practice are older concepts than puppy mills in Europe.

Riiseli fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Mar 21, 2012

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Riiseli posted:

words

I just want to make sure that I am understanding your posts correctly.
First you're against the section on the Volhardt test (disclaimers included) because you think the best advice is to find a good breeder -- which we have a large section on already.

But in your last post you indicate that, if you were working with an uninformed breeder, you would consider using a Volhardt test to judge puppy temperament.

Have I misunderstood?

That seems like precisely the steps we have recommended and outlined in the OP.

If you have something more complete and informative to add on crating in Europe I'd be happy to consider adding it, but I'm not going to engage in any nitpicking.

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.


MrFurious posted:

Have I misunderstood?

If you have something more complete and informative to add on crating in Europe I'd be happy to consider adding it, but I'm not going to engage in any nitpicking.
I was lazy with my first quote, which is probably why you misunderstood me in the first place. I don't mind it being in the OP just agree that it is largely a waste of time etc. I wanted to offer my own input as I have some experience on it from a breeder standpoint.

I could possibly write something about crating in Europe, but that would be ethical "discussion", as crating is banned due to ethical reasons, and you didn't want that. Therefore I only hope you correct the misinformation in the OP concerning crating being illegal & frowned upon in Europe due to an association with puppy mills.

Riiseli fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Mar 21, 2012

ButWhatIf
Jun 24, 2009

HA HA HA


MrFurious posted:

It's almost as if we were familiar with all of these concepts when we wrote the document. If you'll go back and read again, you'll note that we put in heavy disclaimers regarding the long term accuracy and suggested that it is only applicable to young puppy-hood at best. In addition we've armed readers with more information on what's out there and what's being used, as well as how best to interpret that information for their own best interests.

I disagree that it is applicable to anything other than "I opened an umbrella and the dog startled so I will arbitrarily give it a score of 2" or "I lifted the puppy off the ground for 30 seconds and it wiggled so I will rank it as somewhat dominant." I don't believe it has any merit in gauging temperament in any age of dog considering that there is zero scientific method being used. Is there any harm in it? Not necessarily. Do I omghate it? That would be a little over-dramatic way to put it. Yeah, it's considered the Standard for Measuring Temperament, but so is the whole dominant-submissive spectrum, and I wouldn't recommend readers to go in search of people using that, either.

"It's almost as if people can have a dissenting opinion without resorting to condescending statements or hyperbolic summations of what the other person is saying."

I guess what I'm saying is if you don't want additional discussion over the content provided in the OP, please add that to the thread rules and consider my earlier post a badpost.

Duxwig
Oct 21, 2005



We are currently in the process of getting a new Vizsla puppy. We've been on a hardcore search of the midwest and after talking with a few people in the area they recommended Shiloh Kennels. I found the website while looking, but it said nothing about puppies so I just passed it over. Found a link to his website on a gun dog breeder site which has a number of reviews on the breeder.

He has puppies ready to go in 10 days, but lives 3.5 hrs away we havent had a chance to check out the puppies. They're 6 in the litter and we have the pick of 2 males that were available. He hasnt been that active in calling back, but sounds like he's a judge for some field contest or something in Illinois thats happening currently.

Seems like it's good, but any of you pros decipher anything that we haven't?
He sent us 2 pics of the pups also, looks like the bottom left one may be a runt(or just female?). Hard to tell of course w/o seeing them.
Any questions beyond whats given in the OP we should ask or seek out?


Duxwig fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Mar 22, 2012

mombot
Sep 28, 2010

mmmmmwah - Trophy kisses!


Can you resize te pics please?

Honestly, the cages make me feel How would you like to stand on wire mesh? Looks like a mill to me.

Duxwig
Oct 21, 2005



He said they have three litters a year max. I agree on wire mesh, but not sure if that was something w the boarding he does. This is the most reliable breeder weve located so far, the rest looked pretty milly or questionable w lots of litters or advertising. He went to judge whatever, so seems eh too, but i know someone else is on the farm since we told him we sent a deposit and he said he called home and they had it. Seems a bit silly to have them in cages wo blankets or food etc, and bottom doesnt look crazy soiled.

Edit: And these are pics he sent us after we requested. I know hes not an idiot. If it was a mill, wouldnt he be smart enough to atleast it look sort of normal instead of that?

Serella
Apr 24, 2008

Is that what you're posting?



That breeder mentions "hip and health" guarantee, and you're going to want to find out what that means. Have the breeding stock been tested for hip dysplasia, or are they just willing to replace any sick or wonky dogs that may arise?

This is very clearly a working breeder. Do you want a working quality dog, with all the temperament and energy requirements that entails? All the reviews mention the dogs performing well in the field, so these are not going to be your standard pet-quality dogs whose idea of excitement and life fulfillment is playing catch in the backyard.

How many litters does this kennel breed per year? They mention they've currently got two litters on the ground -- spring litters. Are there summer, fall, and winter litters too? That seems like a lot of dogs. Not necessarily a puppy mill, but definitely not the best of breeders if they are churning out that many litters per year. The fact that they've got two litters at once stands out to me, but even more so if they are planning on breeding more litters this year. answered just above

They mention having a long-term breeding program, so you should ask about it. If they really do care about their lines, they will most likely be happy to tell you all about it, more than you will even be interested in.

They may well be a very good kennel, and when you get a chance to have a chat with them, I think you'll get a feeling as to whether or not they are legit and you want to support them. I think the thing that's important to remember is that if you don't get a good feeling from them, it doesn't have to be right now and you should walk away. Hope you're able to find the right pup.

Duxwig
Oct 21, 2005



Serella posted:

That breeder mentions "hip and health" guarantee, and you're going to want to find out what that means. Have the breeding stock been tested for hip dysplasia, or are they just willing to replace any sick or wonky dogs that may arise?

This is very clearly a working breeder. Do you want a working quality dog, with all the temperament and energy requirements that entails? All the reviews mention the dogs performing well in the field, so these are not going to be your standard pet-quality dogs whose idea of excitement and life fulfillment is playing catch in the backyard.

How many litters does this kennel breed per year? They mention they've currently got two litters on the ground -- spring litters. Are there summer, fall, and winter litters too? That seems like a lot of dogs. Not necessarily a puppy mill, but definitely not the best of breeders if they are churning out that many litters per year. The fact that they've got two litters at once stands out to me, but even more so if they are planning on breeding more litters this year. answered just above

They mention having a long-term breeding program, so you should ask about it. If they really do care about their lines, they will most likely be happy to tell you all about it, more than you will even be interested in.

They may well be a very good kennel, and when you get a chance to have a chat with them, I think you'll get a feeling as to whether or not they are legit and you want to support them. I think the thing that's important to remember is that if you don't get a good feeling from them, it doesn't have to be right now and you should walk away. Hope you're able to find the right pup.

We know he's more geared toward the working/hunting dogs and that will be some of their temperament. I get your sentiment that unless its really good, why risk it, but so far this is the best we've located so far(by referrals from people that deal w/ vizslas). We talked to another breeder who only does a litter once in blue moon and he had recommended them too. That breeder sat on the phone w my girlfriend for a good 30 mins. Girlfriend spoke to the breeder I linked to for 20-30 mins about various things, she talked to him about the working dog issue and he told her that he started that way but its near impossible to sell only to hunters so he sells for family pets also. They'll help board the dog, train the dog for hunt etc, so seems they are mostly geared to hunting dogs.
Going to call the place tomorrow to talk more to wife there, since he's at the German All Breed Championship in IL to Monday.

Duxwig fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Mar 22, 2012

mombot
Sep 28, 2010

mmmmmwah - Trophy kisses!


Well maybe I was harsh and admit to not looking at the site. The cages just caught me off guard. If he's showing, then it's likely that it's just where they are kenneled at the moment. Good luck.

My daughter has a friend with two and we're in Illinois, but hers are older. I'll ask where she got them though if you'd like.

Instant Jellyfish
Jul 3, 2007

Actually not a fish.



Duxwig posted:

We know he's more geared toward the working/hunting dogs and that will be some of their temperament. I get your sentiment that unless its really good, why risk it, but so far this is the best we've located so far(by referrals from people that deal w/ vizslas). We talked to another breeder who only does a litter once in blue moon and he had recommended them too. That breeder sat on the phone w my girlfriend for a good 30 mins. Girlfriend spoke to the breeder I linked to for 20-30 mins about various things, she talked to him about the working dog issue and he told her that he started that way but its near impossible to sell only to hunters so he sells for family pets also. They'll help board the dog, train the dog for hunt etc, so seems they are mostly geared to hunting dogs.
Going to call the place tomorrow to talk more to wife there, since he's at the German All Breed Championship in IL to Monday.

As long as you (and the breeder) have evaluated your ability to care for a high energy dog and you are able to get proof of hip evaluations that breeder looks great to me. He seems highly invested in the work his breed was bred to do, he is communicating with you well, appears to take interest in his pups after they leave him and comes recommended by other owners and breeders. Is he a FURBABIES kind of breeder? No. But his puppies look bright eyed, clean and healthy and clearly are able to do what the breed is supposed to. The puppies in those pictures are in crates but the crates are spotless. It really doesn't look like a mill.

Opentarget
Mar 17, 2009


I'm new to these parts of SA but this looked like the puppy thread that is newer, so I'll post here.

My younger sister and my mother just came home with an 8 week old female Shih Tzu. My parents had a German Shepard 20-ish years ago, but aside from that, no one in this house knows anything about dogs.

Right now I'm a little worried, and its mostly because of how ignorant we are. I've read both the OP's on puppies, and the OP on dog nutrition, but this is super overwhelming. We aren't the most active group of people, and so far I seem to be the only one trying to learn anything substantial in raising a puppy. They seem to be fine with what the pet store told them about basic puppy knowledge, but I wasn't there so I don't know how thorough this knowledge was. And my general impression about puppies from pet stores seems to be apprehensive at best. I'd post the store but I'm not entirely sure if name dropping the place is alright. They have a 10 day money back guarantee, which I initially thought was a bit strange for something like a pet, and 4 year coverage of major medical expenses, although I don't know how specific it is, and they cover the first vet visit. From what I've read, I am a little unsure of the health of our puppy and really don't know what do to about it other than wait until she sees a vet, which I guess is all I can do.

They are lining up the first vet visit and getting its tags (I assume pets have to be registered, we live in Nebraska) by the end of the week.

We've got a bell thing near the door for outside potty training, but I think that is the only training tool we have other than a bag of dog treats.

This is kind of a haphazard post, and I apologize for that, but I guess is what I'm asking is where should a family like mine start in trying to not gently caress up raising a puppy? I really don't have that much confidence in my sister, my parents and I work, and I'm a student, but I'm the only one home during the day so I feel like I'm going to be doing quite a bit of puppy work.

We have a cage partitioned off to be her size, and I think training her to use it is the first big thing to do, but I am wholly and totally unsure about anything to do with this dog.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.



99% of the time a pet store puppy is from a puppy mill. Puppy mill breeding stock are not often health tested, and often live in poor conditions. The breeding dogs have minimal contact with humans, and all in all live a pretty poor life. So, uhm, don't buy puppies from pet stores.

It would be best if you returned the puppy to the store from a very beep boop goon perspective. But the odds of that happening are slim to none since your family has surely already created an emotional bond with this pup and won't want to part with it. The best you can do now is ensure the puppy is healthy (and you have a vet check scheduled, which is great) and well cared for. The long term effects of milled dogs can be genetic diseases that don't crop up until later (eyes, elbows, knees, hips) or unsound temperament (breeders don't care if they're breeding nippy, fearful dogs, making nippy fearful puppies since they don't have to live with them). Or heck, the dog may end up being healthy and happy. You'll figure that out in the months and years to come.

The first order of business is housebreaking the dog. This thread is a good resource for that, and it sounds like you're okay as far as that's concerned. Beyond that, getting the pup comfortable in its crate is probably the next priority. Then teaching the pup appropriate play (ie, no biting) and how to use toys. Manners around a food bowl are helpful too.

Pups are smart and will pick up on cues quickly. They don't respond well to punishment, so I suggest you look into reinforcement training - check out the Dog Training Megathread for more on this.

If you have any specific questions, please let us know!

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Opentarget posted:

Puppy stuff

ALL touched on all the right issues, as usual. Given that you already have the dog, in your shoes I would make sure the vet is aware where you got the animal from. A good vet can likely read between the lines and it will alert them to be on the lookout for health issues that he or she might not be looking for otherwise.

On the other hand, Khelmar may pop in here and tell us that he assumes worst case for all dogs until proven otherwise.

The other general advice I would offer is to identify problematic behavior and deal with it right away before it becomes entrenched. Resource guarding on week two with a new puppy is way, way easier to deal with than the dog that's been doing it for over a year successfully.
If you can find a puppy kindergarten go to it. Even if it's not the ideal outlined in the OP, the socialization will be invaluable over the long haul.

Aside from that, go over the OP and don't hesitate to ask if you have questions, we're here to help. And remember, you can start training on day one, so there's no reason to wait.

Opentarget
Mar 17, 2009


Yesterday, I didn't spend much time with her because of classes and work so she spent a good part of the morning alone.

Mostly my biggest issue right now is getting her comfortable in the crate. She doesn't go for any of the treats we have and I have to go to the store to get some cheerios or something, but I can't leave the room because she is literally terrified of the crate. I know that is the point of training, but she is an otherwise silent dog until she is even close to the crate. If we put her in it she spends her time loudly whinning and constantly pawing at the grates and trying to force her way out. Unfortunately we have had to do this since there are times when we are all out of the house or when we need to sleep.

Is it normal for a pup to initially have that sort of reaction to a crate? I'm avoiding doing homework so I can spend time with her but since my current resources don't seem to work with her its mostly me rubbing her and watching her be an rear end in a top hat to our carpet and furniture. I'm trying to get her to calm down and nap but I don't really know how and can't crate her so she can sleep.

Also, until I find a chew toy she likes, how bad is it for her to chew on the carpet?

I've tried getting her into the crate by using toys that she is currently playing with to lure her in. Since she is so tiny, she has to jump in one half at a time. When she does that I praise her a bunch, I think. Lots of happy rubs and exclamations. And pretty much the same thing when she goes all in, but then she will lose interest in the toy pretty quickly and jump out. If I close the door then she freaks out like I described.

I even have a kong with some peanut butter in it and she just doesn't give a gently caress about that.
Other things I have are a round furry squeaky toy, a big fish ring thing with hard rubber bits, some hard rubber keys, a little tennis ball thing, and a brush. I think its a brush at least. My shopping list has a clicker, chew toy, truckload of different treats, and pretty much anything else I see.

With that, any suggestions on how to crate her? I probably can't make it to the store until the weekend or else she'll be alone for a while so it looks like a couple of days of me watching her in the living room.

She is seeing the vet tomorrow, so I'll try to let you all know how that goes.
And I mentioned puppy kindergarten to my mom on the phone earlier and she thought that was just the cuttest thing. So if I can find one it had a good chance of happening.

Sorry for any errors, I had to write this on my tablet.
And it looks like she fell asleep on the floor, so maybe I can get a quicky shower in!

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Opentarget posted:

carpet chewing

It's ultra bad. This is exactly the sort of behavior I was referring to when I said to stop it early. Chewing on things that aren't chew toys is not okay, period full stop. Anytime she's doing this, redirect her to something else. Stuff a chew toy in her mouth and praise heavily. Turn it into a game of tug, whatever. Do not allow chewing to become habitual or reinforcing.

In regards to easing into the crate, there are a few things to try. The first step is making it a fun place, as referenced in the OP. You've tried some of that and struggled, so the next thing I would do is try hand feeding in the crate.

Block out some time during her meal schedule and go sit in front of the crate with her. Don't force her to do anything, but place some of her kibble right in front of the crate with the door open. If she takes it, put one just inside the door. If she puts a paw in, deliver treats directly to her mouth, one at a time, six or seven times. Incrementally draw her in further.

If she's not taking treats at all near the crate, there are two possibilities:
1) She's not hungry enough -- if this is the issue, it's likely due to overfeeding. Visit the nutrition thread and find some calorie calculators online and adjust the amounts of her meals accordingly.

2) You're too close and she's over threshold. Start further back away from the crate.

My money, what with you being a new owner, is on #1, but there is probably some of #2 mixed in for good measure. String cheese and boiled chicken are usually good treat motivators as well. If this continues to be an issue for training near the crate, skip a meal and try it again later in the day when you know she's hungry.

As far as leaving her in there at night, I would put an old ratty t-shirt in there with her that smells like you, in addition to a safe chew toy. For us this is a red rubber bone-shaped Kong. I recommend a softer chew personally because it's quieter and there's no risk of chipping teeth or opening up gums on an edge, but just make sure it's not a choking hazard.

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."



Opentarget posted:

Yesterday, I didn't spend much time with her because of classes and work so she spent a good part of the morning alone.

Mostly my biggest issue right now is getting her comfortable in the crate. She doesn't go for any of the treats we have and I have to go to the store to get some cheerios or something, but I can't leave the room because she is literally terrified of the crate. I know that is the point of training, but she is an otherwise silent dog until she is even close to the crate. If we put her in it she spends her time loudly whinning and constantly pawing at the grates and trying to force her way out. Unfortunately we have had to do this since there are times when we are all out of the house or when we need to sleep.

Is it normal for a pup to initially have that sort of reaction to a crate? I'm avoiding doing homework so I can spend time with her but since my current resources don't seem to work with her its mostly me rubbing her and watching her be an rear end in a top hat to our carpet and furniture. I'm trying to get her to calm down and nap but I don't really know how and can't crate her so she can sleep.

Also, until I find a chew toy she likes, how bad is it for her to chew on the carpet?

I've tried getting her into the crate by using toys that she is currently playing with to lure her in. Since she is so tiny, she has to jump in one half at a time. When she does that I praise her a bunch, I think. Lots of happy rubs and exclamations. And pretty much the same thing when she goes all in, but then she will lose interest in the toy pretty quickly and jump out. If I close the door then she freaks out like I described.

I even have a kong with some peanut butter in it and she just doesn't give a gently caress about that.
Other things I have are a round furry squeaky toy, a big fish ring thing with hard rubber bits, some hard rubber keys, a little tennis ball thing, and a brush. I think its a brush at least. My shopping list has a clicker, chew toy, truckload of different treats, and pretty much anything else I see.

With that, any suggestions on how to crate her? I probably can't make it to the store until the weekend or else she'll be alone for a while so it looks like a couple of days of me watching her in the living room.

She is seeing the vet tomorrow, so I'll try to let you all know how that goes.
And I mentioned puppy kindergarten to my mom on the phone earlier and she thought that was just the cuttest thing. So if I can find one it had a good chance of happening.

Sorry for any errors, I had to write this on my tablet.
And it looks like she fell asleep on the floor, so maybe I can get a quicky shower in!

If its easier initially, and all you want to do is confine the pup to an area, then use an ex-pen that you can purchase pretty much anywhere (like agway or a pet store). The buy cheap linoleum flooring and place it underneath this area. You can put down puppy pads if you have to (because the dog can't hold it, etc) and place bedding and toys in the area as well. In this manner you can confine the dog while you are out without creating further bad associations with the crate while you are working on building value for the crate/ making the crate into a place the dog wants to be.

We did this with several of our dogs when they were little both when we were home (at times when the pups couldn't be directly supervised) or out for a bit.

Opentarget
Mar 17, 2009


Thanks for the heads up on the carpet. I just overnighted the Nylabones in the OP.

Tomorrow I'll try to forgo her midday meal and try the kibble thing in the afternoon. Also, for the record, when you say kibble, are you just referring to the individual pieces of dog food? Just trying to make sure if I have to get something with "kibble" on the side of it.

I like the wtftastic's idea about the ex-pen. Thanks for that. I think I'll try to partition off the bit in front of our fireplace so she has a place other than the crate. It is a tile-y bit that should do fine. My schedule for the next couple of days is tighter than today's, so that would be nice if I can get it to work.

I'll try those and report back. Thanks alot for the help guys.

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Opentarget posted:

Also, for the record, when you say kibble, are you just referring to the individual pieces of dog food? Just trying to make sure if I have to get something with "kibble" on the side of it.

I'm assuming the food you're feeding is a dry dog food kibble. Maybe the appropriate response to your question is "What are you currently feeding your dog?"

Opentarget
Mar 17, 2009


Its Doc's Choice dry for pups, so yeah, kibble I guess. It has 3 stars on DogFoodAdvisor but it is what she was fed at the store and that is what they sold us.

And now I have a bit of a problem. These posts make it sound like I'm the only one with the dog, but my mother has a different idea on how to run things. I called my father before I left for work and asked him to get something for a partition and some string cheese, but mom told him no. Her friends that have dogs are telling her that if you just leave the dog in the crate, she'll get used to it in a few weeks and the whining is fine. And she is inclined to believe them.

I'm obviously not an expert, but my disagreement isn't really being taken seriously. I don't want to make this any more E/N than it already is, but other than the risk of the pup hating the crate and making training her harder, is there anything else I can tell her?

And a couple of things I learned before I left for work. Evidently it is a vet that is in some sort of "partnership" with the store, not one that we (my mom and sister) picked out. I don't know if it is as little as just advertising at the store or something more serious than that, but it kind of rubs me the wrong way. I'm just like that as a person, but I'm a little worried that the vet might already know the background of the dog, and that it might influence something.

At the vet's tomorrow, I told my sister to mention the pup licking between her hind legs a lot today and she said it was probably because she has stitches back there that I had no idea about. My sister had called the store and asked why, but they wouldn't answer and just told her to ask the vet. So that's got me worried a bit as well.

Supercondescending
Jul 4, 2007

ok frankies now lets get in formation

Opentarget posted:

Its Doc's Choice dry for pups, so yeah, kibble I guess. It has 3 stars on DogFoodAdvisor but it is what she was fed at the store and that is what they sold us.


It's crap, just googled the ingredients list. I'd check out the nutrition thread and get her on something better.

Opentarget
Mar 17, 2009


Superconsndar posted:

It's crap, just googled the ingredients list. I'd check out the nutrition thread and get her on something better.

Yeah, I realized it's crap when I compared the ingredients versus the thread, but I can't get to a store until at least the weekend so it has to make due.

Definitely at the top of my list though. Speaking of food though, do the big name stores typically have high quality food or should I be looking for smaller, more independent places?

Deep Thoreau
Aug 16, 2008



Opentarget posted:

Yeah, I realized it's crap when I compared the ingredients versus the thread, but I can't get to a store until at least the weekend so it has to make due.

Definitely at the top of my list though. Speaking of food though, do the big name stores typically have high quality food or should I be looking for smaller, more independent places?

Nah, Petco has Wellness, blue buffalo AND solid gold, all of which are pretty good dog foods, according to the thread!

Should be sleeping
Dec 3, 2006
AM I WEARING MY LEATHERS AND A HELMET? NO? I BETTER BE.


Hi guys,

We recently adopted a chiweenie(chiguagua dachsund mix). We found him wandering around, trying to cross a busy street, and after searching for an owner we couldn't find one. We got him neutered, vaccinated, and chipped.

For the past few weeks, if he's resting on the couch, or if he's been sleeping, and I approach for any reason, he rolls over and pees. I know this is submissive urination, and he's trying to show me that he recognized me as the boss. But I just can't seem to get him over it! All I can think to do is tell him NO! and put him in the back yard so he knows it was bad. But he doesn't get it. He thinks peeing is how to show me that he submits to my authority, but all it does is make me have to wash the couch cushions carpet, and dog bed.

I've searched on the internet, and most of the advice is for puppies, the vet estimates him at 2-4 years old.

To clarify, it's not when I get home, the doggie olympics that takes place when I get home is pee free. It's not when he's scared, he barks at everything and generally doesn't fear much, except the cat. And even with the cat, he barks and finds somewhere else to chill. He submissively urinates when I approach him and he's been sleeping, or if I go to hook on his leash for a walk.

What can I do to help stop this behavior?

Engineer Lenk
Aug 28, 2003

Mnogo losho e!

Should be sleeping posted:

All I can think to do is tell him NO! and put him in the back yard so he knows it was bad.

What can I do to help stop this behavior?

Stop doing that. You're inadvertently reinforcing the behavior.

He's freaked out by you looming over him.

If he knows sit (or any other behavior that's less compatible with submissive peeing), try asking him for that when you approach. Approach him from the side, glancing at him rather than head-on. Other than that, focusing heavily on reward-based training will help him build confidence around you - minimizing or eliminating verbal or physical corrections will also help.

Should be sleeping posted:

I know this is submissive urination, and he's trying to show me that he recognized me as the boss. But I just can't seem to get him over it! All I can think to do is tell him NO! and put him in the back yard so he knows it was bad. But he doesn't get it. He thinks peeing is how to show me that he submits to my authority, but all it does is make me have to wash the couch cushions carpet, and dog bed.

It's not really a 'you're the boss' kind of thing, it's more like a flinch or 'please don't hurt me'.

Engineer Lenk fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Mar 28, 2012

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.


Should be sleeping posted:

What can I do to help stop this behavior?
I'd probably wake him from a distance and cue him to come to you. If it works it seems like an easy solution and you'll get to to practice come at the same time. And definitely lay off the NO in these situations.

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."



Should be sleeping posted:

Hi guys,

We recently adopted a chiweenie(chiguagua dachsund mix). We found him wandering around, trying to cross a busy street, and after searching for an owner we couldn't find one. We got him neutered, vaccinated, and chipped.

For the past few weeks, if he's resting on the couch, or if he's been sleeping, and I approach for any reason, he rolls over and pees. I know this is submissive urination, and he's trying to show me that he recognized me as the boss. But I just can't seem to get him over it! All I can think to do is tell him NO! and put him in the back yard so he knows it was bad. But he doesn't get it. He thinks peeing is how to show me that he submits to my authority, but all it does is make me have to wash the couch cushions carpet, and dog bed.

I've searched on the internet, and most of the advice is for puppies, the vet estimates him at 2-4 years old.

To clarify, it's not when I get home, the doggie olympics that takes place when I get home is pee free. It's not when he's scared, he barks at everything and generally doesn't fear much, except the cat. And even with the cat, he barks and finds somewhere else to chill. He submissively urinates when I approach him and he's been sleeping, or if I go to hook on his leash for a walk.

What can I do to help stop this behavior?
Imagine if someone, like your mom, came in, and you demonstrated that you were scared, and then your mother yelled at you "DON'T BE SCARED" or just yelled at you for a reason you can't discern. That is what you are doing. Do you think that it would make you less afraid or more afraid?

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Opentarget posted:

Crate and mom stuff

Try this: http://www.humanesociety.org/animal...e_training.html
Your mom might respond better to a more well known source, but if you read it the material is exactly the same. The family dynamic is frustrating because you're going to quickly become the dog expert but never be recognized as an authority figure -- if you can find a way to amend that, it will help you in the future.

In regards to the vet, I am extremely skeptical of any vet that would enter into a partnership with a pet store like that. I've never seen it before and it sets off all kinds of red flags, but I don't have any personal experience to draw from there. Let me PM Khelmar and see if he has anything to add to that aspect of the discussion.

Khelmar
Oct 12, 2003

Things fix me.

Opentarget posted:

At the vet's tomorrow, I told my sister to mention the pup licking between her hind legs a lot today and she said it was probably because she has stitches back there that I had no idea about. My sister had called the store and asked why, but they wouldn't answer and just told her to ask the vet. So that's got me worried a bit as well.

I can understand the store saying that - it's a medical question, and they could get into trouble for practicing without a license if they get into that sort of thing. I'd make sure to ask the vet - they can check for sutures, inflammation, etc.

If you're worried about how objective your vet is about things, you can always get a second opinion from another vet. I've been on both ends of the second opinion line, and I'm always happy to send along whatever records I have. If they're reluctant to have you get a second opinion, that's a warning flag in my book.

Engineer Lenk
Aug 28, 2003

Mnogo losho e!

Should be sleeping posted:

It's not when he's scared, he barks at everything and generally doesn't fear much, except the cat.

Your dog may be more fearful than you think. A big aggressive barky display can be rooted in fear or anxiety. Chis and doxies are pretty well-known for fear aggression.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.



Engineer Lenk posted:

Your dog may be more fearful than you think. A big aggressive barky display can be rooted in fear or anxiety. Chis and doxies are pretty well-known for fear aggression.

This is very true. Fearful displays can often look assertive and sometimes exclusively so. My dog, because of her personality, breed, and the way she learned to avoid stress, always displays forward motions (moving toward the trigger, barking, jumping, growling) and almost never does anything stereotypically fearful (cowering, running away with her tail between her legs, etc). But her problem is very much anxiety and fear.

With the submissive peeing, I would definitely say there is some fear and reactivity going on there and you should change your approach in these situations (cue him to do something else, start from a distance, etc. as others have suggested).

Abbeh
May 23, 2006

When I grow up I mean to be
A Lion large and fierce to see.
(Thank you, Das Boo!)

Is there any way to undo six years of damage to a dog's mind? We don't punish Zoso when he has accidents because, well, there's no point. And he tends to pick easy cleanup places (including the side of a toilet once) so whatever. I just act like there's nothing wrong with the day and go on business as usual.

Zoso, however, literally makes himself sick with worry waiting for us to come home. He gets sick to his stomach and can hardly move around or eat. He's always better in an hour or so. But I'd rather him be a happier, worry free dog. Today, for instance, when I got home I took him out and rather than boudning around the yard, he shuffled down to the corner, pooed and then walked back all with his head down and his tail between his legs. When we got inside I gave him a treat like usual, then he walked over to his crate and sat in it, looking really sad and uncomfortable. After I cleaned the pee I went over to him and told him he's a good boy and scratched his ears and the like, but he's still completely shut down.

We know something bad happened to him with one of his many past owners. His ribs were all broken at one point and healed poorly (one sticks out a bit) and his jaw was broken at some point too. Clearly that healed wrong . A lot of back story I know, but I just don't know how to help him besides praising and treats and not making a big deal out of it when he has an accident (maybe once every few months). It's been three years of this. Any other ideas?

My dog has ISSUES.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.



Abbeh posted:

My dog has ISSUES.

Hey dog with issues buddy.

Poor Zoso. Have you done a lot of training with him? Mental exercises such as shaping can help a dog build confidence. You can also try different exploring games with him such as really easy nosework (i.e. put out several boxes, put a couple treats in one and then let him find the treats! put covers or stack boxes for extra challenge). If he likes toys, try to use that for a reward and encourage him to work to play with the toy. If he doesn't like toys, you can shape him to interact with toys and other objects and by showing interest yourself, he may start to find them more exciting.

It's really hard with a shut down dog, so it may take a while, but as long as you find a good motivator like a favorite food, you should be able to encourage him to come out of his shell and try new things. It can really help for their overall confidence and help him be mentally tired so downtime is more relaxing.

Additionally, I am a proponent of medication in cases when it is clear that the dog's quality of life is being severely affected and you've tried behavioral modification. If he's making himself sick while you are gone and is completely shut down otherwise at inappropriate times, then I would talk to a vet or behaviorist about possible anxiety medications. His past trauma may have just affected him so deeply that he needs a bit of help and then you can make a lot more progress on your behavioral modification and his day-to-day life will be more enjoyable.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Duxwig
Oct 21, 2005



puppy crying at night question.

So we got our vizsla and he is supppppper good already at 8 weeks. During the day we have a play pen attached to his crate so he can play and go lay down. Hes fine w the crate and sleeps in it on his own during the day and chews toys etc. During the day hes usually quiet and just entertains himself when we leave the house or room for 15min-hour. Hes really great so far on potty and all the mistakes have been our fault, and thankfully not many!

We have the crate and pen in the living room which attaches to our bedroom. Hes only been home 3 nights but still in the cry stage. Know it takes time but just wanna see if were doing ok.

Like i said during day hes pretty good, but night is when he whimpers and such. we try to wear him out and make sure to potty before he goes in crate w a toy or two. Hes usually ok for 30 mins or so at night and then starts crying. People live below us and were not sure we can hear so its been hard.

Last night we ended up putting him to bed at 8 since i had to be to work at 7. He actually slept from 8 pm to 5am. Not a peep from him(prev 2 nights he howled a lot thro the night) No accidents unless he licked it up or something. Took him out and put him back in for quiet time but he bagan howling like a banshee. Was this just our fault for bed time to early or just our need for sticking to our guns until he still quiets himself?

Should we just put him to bed later and just assume he wants to be out and wake up to play once he goes out to pee?
Like i also said, crate is in the kitchen. We sleep in the bedroom. Should we move the crate into the bedroom so he can see us? At some points in the howl, one of us will slowly make our way out to the living room which connects to the kitchen and sleep on the floor. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesnt. We try not to say anything to him but not sure if this reinforces him. Gf also sometimes reads him a dr seuss book and he loves her voice and goes back to sleep for an hour or two. also bad or good?

We treid a ticking clock and warm water bottle w varying success.

Just looking for more guidance to see if were reinforcing or where we should go w this. We know hes going to cry somewhat, but trying to see if were doing things wrong so neighbors dont bitch.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«289 »