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 Build Update: Demo Build: 0.914d Beta Build: 0.924b Full news item is on the site. Demo and Beta:
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Mar 24, 2012 02:09
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I see what people mean by beating the demo as far as getting into the DMC. Are there any safe areas to sleep? How about Junk Town?
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Mar 24, 2012 03:00
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No where is completely safe to sleep; looters can walk into Junk Town. In fact one of the older bugs was that they kept picking stuff up there. You can make noise traps Loose screws/bolts + Loose string/Wire + tin can and leave them on the ground when you sleep to act as a warning. Apparently using more than one has a stacking effect so you're safer with 2-3 of them than just one. In the beta the hiding skill makes sleeping safely a lot easier since you can use the "sneak" option and be much harder to spot, even while asleep (it's a toggle and it just stays on until you disable it). You can also "hide" in places with poor visibility, like surrounded by hills or forests. I'm thinking that at some point you might get the ability to rest inside buildings for more security.
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Mar 24, 2012 03:15
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Combat is just really random. With Melee and Tough, I can do well enough that attacking my first looter when I haven't found decent supplies yet and still have nanohealthingies is a decent idea. But fighting after that is pointless. Cool thing happened once, a dogman came out of nowhere, but then from somewhere I couldn't even see a looter shot him to death with a rifle. I got the hell away after that, luckily didn't die myself. I then actually ran into a looter with a rifle--who was out of ammo. I cut him up with my meat cleaver and took the rifle, then even found 5 bullets in a shed. But when I tried it on a dogman, well, it didn't go so well. Yeah, combat, mostly a waste unless you just started and want to raid a looter. It's better to have lots of movement per turn so you can run away from everything.
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Mar 24, 2012 03:37
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The Cheshire Cat posted:No where is completely safe to sleep; looters can walk into Junk Town. In fact one of the older bugs was that they kept picking stuff up there. How the hell do you sneak?? Is that beta only?
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Mar 25, 2012 03:38
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S.T.C.A. posted:How the hell do you sneak?? Is that beta only? Last time I checked it was. Don't know if it's meant to be in the demo or not now though.
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Mar 25, 2012 03:45
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Does having a lit campfire in the same square do anything for fending off hypothermia, or is it just for crafting purposes? Edit: Looks like it does. When you move a campfire from the area inventory to the crafting section, the Outside temp bar goes down a little bit. Joe Der Maus fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Mar 25, 2012 |
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Mar 25, 2012 04:05
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Joe Der Maus posted:Does having a lit campfire in the same square do anything for fending off hypothermia, or is it just for crafting purposes? Yes having a lit campfire makes the ambient temperature higher on that square. I always leave a fire going when I go to sleep overnight just to be sure, but I think probably just keeping two shirts, dungarees, a hoody, and boots on is enough to keep you warm until daybreak. Squirrel-coat and gloves are even better (and make you look like the king of the hobos).
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Mar 25, 2012 04:33
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So somebody explain to me how I managed to be punched to death by a looter after wailing on him with a crowbar for five turns. Something about that just doesn't seem right.
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Mar 25, 2012 05:55
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Basically, combat is bullshit. Maybe they're trying to simulate years of muscle atrophy in your cryotank?
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Mar 25, 2012 05:57
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The way combat works is kind of mystifying. From what I understand it basically comes down to your injuries are based solely on the worst injury you've received. So if you hit an enemy five times but only deal out "injured" at worst, and he hits you one time and it's a "mortally wounded", you're way worse off than he is. It's not quite that simple since apparently you can actually build up lesser wounds and when they max out, taking more will start to spill over to the more severe levels, so your damage taken will trend upwards over time without healing, but it ends up being very random since taking one bad hit is more influential in combat than dealing out several lesser hits. I don't even bother with combat until I get a rifle, and then I just shoot from two or so tiles away where they can't hit me back.
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Mar 25, 2012 07:26
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Yeah, combat is..... lacking. I tend to not bother with it either, just run away. On the one hand I can see logic in being encouraged to run away, I know if I was out in a post-apocalyptic world I would run from everyone as soon as I saw them in the distance. On the other hand, it's still a game and always running isn't really that fun.
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Mar 25, 2012 07:46
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I just played a run and managed to score tons of free clothes, plenty of saucepans, and a multitool even! Unfortunately I died of thirst and getting beaten to death by a jerk looter. Tip of the day: you can never have enough water and ketchup. Never. I want this game to be awesome, so I just bought in to the beta. You can not have enough post apocalypse survival games, ever. Or ketchup packets for that matter. Dreadwroth fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Mar 26, 2012 |
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Mar 25, 2012 08:32
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Build Update: This update's theme song is "Last Friday Night". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlyXNRrsk4A      Demo Build: 0.915d Beta Build: 0.925b Full news item is on the site. Demo and Beta:
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Mar 27, 2012 03:47
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Are you meant to be able to save, do stuff, quit, then reload and be restored to when you saved? If so that sucks and really goes against the creator's hard, survival game intention doesn't it?
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Mar 27, 2012 07:25
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Yes, that's intentional. Have a look through my past update posts and you'll see a little  next to the bullet point about saving/loading. I honestly thought there would be a shitstorm in the thread but it never happened so I just assumed everyone liked the change and I kept my mouth shut. I already posted on the official forums in a thread about any future (this was before it was implemented) save feature and how it should only be a save on quit deal. Since you brought it up I'm sure you've come to the realization that this means the game is no longer perma-death, you can just reload your save if you die. I must admit, I think it's a huge mistake and destroys a bunch of appeal and the "survival" feeling for me. Yes, I know you don't have to use the load feature, but you can say that about any game, it doesn't make it perma-death. I know I should remove the part about perma-death from the OP but I was hoping we could all just pretend reloading doesn't exist and I am also holding out, hoping the load after death "feature" is removed before being released. Dan, if you are reading this please just make Flash delete the local data when the player dies. The sperg lords have their load feature, they can reload their game when they make a "mistake" or they are about to die, but if they actually die just delete it....
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Mar 27, 2012 08:08
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Xik posted:Yes, that's intentional. Have a look through my past update posts and you'll see a little Real survivors never save.
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Mar 27, 2012 08:37
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I hate being able to freely save/load in games like this. I'll always use it if it's there, and no matter what people say about "just don't use it then", the game subsequently gets balanced with reloading in mind. Rightly so, mind you, because balancing a game built around reloading should be different than balancing a game with perma-death. The question is whether we want perma-death gameplay (big focus on escape and defense) or reload gameplay (no escape options or fewer ones, less forgiving character advancement/resources).
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Mar 27, 2012 08:43
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Will optional permadeath kill the game for you?
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Mar 27, 2012 10:01
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I noticed the option but I'm not really concerned about it, and don't use it. If someday leaderboards or whatever are implemented I don't see a problem with restricting them to people who play with Perma, and as no-one's affected by loading/save in any other setting it doesn't bother me too much. Having options is a good thing.
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Mar 27, 2012 10:50
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Pierzak posted:Will optional permadeath kill the game for you? Yes since the game (every other feature and balance decision aside from permadeath) is either built as a permadeath game or not. You can play any offline roguelike as non-permadeath, too, by save-scumming. Just like permadeath games are no fun while save-scumming, non-permadeath games are no fun while pretending they are permadeath. beef express posted:Having options is a good thing. This is a one man operation, there is no way he is balancing the encounters, features, leveling, gear, etc. for both permadeath and non-permadeath. BlueBottleGames has the option, right now, you won't get any option once they/he decides. Seashell Salesman fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Mar 27, 2012 |
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Mar 27, 2012 12:01
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Played this for the first time last night. It was pretty easy to learn, although I know I'm missing out on a lot since I didn't craft anything but a small fire. The combat is rough. I avoided it when I could (aka I had "athletic") and actually killed a guy with a big branch when I couldn't. But it feels like unarmed combat specialty doesn't do much and combat is so undefined I'm not even sure if I'd ever take it again since it's impossible to know if it actually helps you or not. I figured out a lot but I think a good portion of it should be a little more obvious. For instance, the way you check berries and fungi with Botany could be a one-click deal instead of dragging it from the Abilities screen into Items. But it's a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to future updates.
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Mar 27, 2012 15:33
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Oak Read Erryday posted:For instance, the way you check berries and fungi with Botany could be a one-click deal instead of dragging it from the Abilities screen into Items. Honestly, there's no reason to not automatically apply skills to crafting when you have them. Granted the first time is the only time (after that you can just single-click from the recipe page) but still, it's kind of needlessly archaic as well as a little immersion-breaking; I know how to identify plants, I just choose not to sometimes! Why? Why would I do this, both as a character who's trying to survive and as a player who knows that even if I have only one turn left, with a looter nearby, I can open my crafting screen, light a campfire, purify some water, maybe cook some squirrels, craft a squirrel suit, and then take an action to end my turn? And holy poo poo I never made the connection between saving and scumming in NEO Scav. Bums me out. I hope BBG eventually makes it so that you auto-save every turn/action and wipe the save the moment death occurs, before even telling the player they died. Overall though, YOU ROCK, BLUE BOTTLE! Tempora Mutantur fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Mar 27, 2012 |
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Mar 27, 2012 16:45
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Xik posted:
I was going to email BBG and request a beta key so I could review it, but those pictures have convinced me to just buy the game. Never underestimate the value of humour.
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Mar 27, 2012 16:55
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Wow, there's been a lot of chatter here in the past week! It appears Xik is doing an awesome job keeping everyone up-to-date, and answering questions. SA's forum may be the most up-to-date site on NEO Scavenger developments besides BBG! Also, now I know who Katy Perry is  Even I learned something!I don't think I'll be able to address every point that was brought up, but I wanted to at least address the point of permadeath. I've always felt save games were a big deal, and I was admittedly afraid of implementing them in a detrimental way. Many of the concerns brought up here echo my own. In an ideal world, I want NEO Scavenger to be challenging, exciting, and rewarding. I want cleverness to be rewarded, and carelessness to be punished. I also want folks to be able to play the game on their own time, at their own pace (e.g. avoid having to commit 3 hours to a raid like in WoW, or bend to time-management mechanics like FarmVille). I didn't want the game to pressure people into playing it, so they could sit back and enjoy the delicacy of deep, thoughtful rpg/strategy gameplay. One reason I think many have argued for savegames, apart from life schedule convenience, is due to another concern brought up here: non-deterministic death. It is very easy to die in NEO Scavenger, and often it is beyond the control of the player (I'm looking at you, combat system). Right now, NEO Scavenger is fairly light on plot, so it's not a huge loss to die before seeing the final content (especially, as pointed out, since one can speed-play their way to see it in a short time), but down the line, when more character growth and plot are introduced, it'd be a real bummer to lose a character to a "yes/no combat death" dice roll. That said, there is a lot of fun to be had in a permastate/permadeath style game, where one lives with consequences of decisions. Did you piss off Hatter? Well tough, he won't see you anymore. Become a criminal in DMC? No more easy access to the city. Desperately eat poisoned food while starving? Better make a bee-line for medical facilities. It would lend more weight to decisions, and make for interesting problem solving when dealing with the consequences. What does this mean for NEO Scavenger's design? Well, I think it's compatible with permadeath. Ultimately, if folks are struggling to survive in NEO Scavenger, I think it's better if I give them more tools and options to survive, rather than a save/load safety net. E.g. more interactive combat, more specific wounds and wound-dressing techniques, additional ways to find resources, at some player cost such as fatigue, skill slots, or burdensome equipment. Save/load is there for life convenience, not in-game convenience. I like the idea of save-erasure upon death, and quitting being synonymous with saving. It's a nice middle ground that seems to be the best fit for the goals mentioned above. Players can still save+quit whenever they need to, and return to playing later. However, if the player dies, they must start anew. They get life convenience, but meaningful in-game decision-making. I've got a working version of these changes going in my debugger as we speak, and I'll try uploading it tonight. Thanks for the candid discussion, and challenging me to really examine the feature. This "feels right" to me, and accentuates one of NEO Scavenger's more unique and endearing qualities: rewarding challenge. And as a bonus, I think discussions on game difficulty will steer back towards making in-game tools to deal with problems, since save/load isn't a valid catch-all solution. Thanks again!
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Mar 27, 2012 22:53
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BlueBottleGames posted:What does this mean for NEO Scavenger's design? Well, I think it's compatible with permadeath. Ultimately, if folks are struggling to survive in NEO Scavenger, I think it's better if I give them more tools and options to survive, rather than a save/load safety net. E.g. more interactive combat, more specific wounds and wound-dressing techniques, additional ways to find resources, at some player cost such as fatigue, skill slots, or burdensome equipment. Save/load is there for life convenience, not in-game convenience. Agreed 100%. Glad to hear you want to take the game in the direction of more survival options for each encounter than just Power Word: Reload.
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Mar 27, 2012 23:46
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Yep, this is definitely good news, real glad to hear the way you want to take the game. Thanks again for keeping an eye on the thread and reading player input.Chas McGill posted:so I could review it. You should post a link to the review in this thread when it's done.
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Mar 28, 2012 01:21
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I was able to run all the way to Detroit-from-robocop with nothing but my gown and got there in pretty good shape. It's fun when you take it seriously too.
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Mar 28, 2012 02:41
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While I think that the game should be balanced as you indicated (around permadeath), I see no reason not to add in a casual mode where you can save/reload. It'd be unbalanced and easy, but then nobody can complain on either side of the fence, because if you pick "casual mode" instead of "survival mode" or whatever, you deserve what you get.
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Mar 28, 2012 04:12
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Yea but you're going to end up with people saying it's too easy and demanding balance changes for non-hardcore mode, if he were not just one man it might be possible, but for now i think it's better to focus on direct gameplay and stick with his current thoughts about save/reload.
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Mar 28, 2012 04:51
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Build Update: Good news everyone! For me and Seashell at least anyway. Permadeath is back, now I don't have to remove it from the OP.  Demo Build: 0.916d Beta Build: 0.926b Full news item is on the site. Demo and Beta:
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Mar 28, 2012 05:26
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Hey, i'm glad you're in favor of anti-scumming measures. This is definitely the kind of game that benefits from permadeath. Glad to hear you're aware of the low-interactivity problem with combat, too. Giving more weight to player condition/armament would make it easier to decide when to fight and when not to. Some thoughts on combat: -How hungry/tired you are compared to the enemy should make a big difference, if it doesn't already. (giving the player a bit more of an advantage early-game, which peters out as the sims-meters march inevitably downward). The way I figure it, most of these looters are probably very hungry and sick. Wolfmen, on the other hand, are probably fairly well-fed. I don't know if you're tracking this sorta stuff currently. -Weapon condition should have an effect on the damage, but even the dullest crowbar should provide a POWERFUL advantage over fists/sticks. Right now melee weapons don't feel like they make a very significant difference. Perhaps weapons and fists could have similar base damage levels, with a much higher chance of critical attacks as the weight of the weapon increases. Is there any sort of armor/penetration system in place? -Hiding would be a more dynamic skill if there were a chance of enabling a surprise attack of some kind. Maybe trapping could get in on the shenanigans too? There aren't many ways to dictate the terms of a fight right now.
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Mar 28, 2012 05:28
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Related question: if I am sneaking, and attack someone, am I always revealed to them on their turn? What if I attack them then move?
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Mar 28, 2012 05:51
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membranoid posted:Yea but you're going to end up with people saying it's too easy and demanding balance changes for non-hardcore mode, if he were not just one man it might be possible, but for now i think it's better to focus on direct gameplay and stick with his current thoughts about save/reload. Then ignore them. Call it "Casual mode for big babies" or something. It's literally a single if statement and a checkbox when you start a new game, so the coding isn't a problem so long as no one expects the game to pose a significant challenge when they're playing Casual Mode For Big Babies (or whatever). I've been terse in this post- please take no offense and don't read it as hostility or frustration on my part - I'm typing on my phone at the moment
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Mar 28, 2012 05:58
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membranoid posted:Yea but you're going to end up with people saying it's too easy and demanding balance changes for non-hardcore mode, if he were not just one man it might be possible, but for now i think it's better to focus on direct gameplay and stick with his current thoughts about save/reload. Dungeons of Dredmor has a casual mode you can save and load in, and it was fine. Mostly no one plays it because real men play perma-death. It'd be good for getting the hang of the game without the threat of losing everything, so you can have a go at perma-death with some knowledge of the game. You know, if you're a crying little girl.
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Mar 28, 2012 10:27
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Lord Banana posted:Dungeons of Dredmor has a casual mode you can save and load in, and it was fine. Mostly no one plays it because real men play perma-death. It'd be good for getting the hang of the game without the threat of losing everything, so you can have a go at perma-death with some knowledge of the game. You know, if you're a crying little girl. On the other hand about 99% of roguelikes have no sanctioned save-scumming at all. Oftentimes (that is to say practically all the time) gamers will pick some option only because it is available, ruin their own experience, then judge the game based on that self-imposed bad gameplay. There is basically no one who has more fun save-scumming in a roguelike, but there are lots of people unfamiliar with the genre who will believe (despite anything that you or me or the creator tell them) that the default and proper way to play the game is save-scumming, and they will turn that option on and then complain incessantly.
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Mar 28, 2012 10:49
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I like the idea of the game world being really difficult and unfriendly for the most part, but I also like the idea that you could either work really hard, or get really lucky, and store up some place with some amazing source of water and food, weapons, etc, and not have to worry so so much about dying. Unfortunately it seems like that kind of safety either isn't what most other people want, or isn't want the designer wants. Don't get me wrong, I do think a looter with a stick could potentially take down someone with perfect health, a full kevlar suit and a bazooka (exaggerating, of course), but just not as often as this game would have you think.
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Mar 28, 2012 15:50
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Seashell Salesman posted:On the other hand about 99% of roguelikes have no sanctioned save-scumming at all. Oftentimes (that is to say practically all the time) gamers will pick some option only because it is available, ruin their own experience, then judge the game based on that self-imposed bad gameplay. There is basically no one who has more fun save-scumming in a roguelike, but there are lots of people unfamiliar with the genre who will believe (despite anything that you or me or the creator tell them) that the default and proper way to play the game is save-scumming, and they will turn that option on and then complain incessantly. Dungeons of Dredmor is designed for people new to the genre though, it's simple and easy to get into compared to most the other roguelikes. While I only have the thread to go on it seems many people new to the genre still choose to go with perma-death, and no one complained that having saves made it too easy because they knew that wasn't the mode it's intended to be played on. Basically as long as save/load mode is clearly marked as beginner mode/little girl mode then it'll be fine. Most people, even those new to the idea of perma-death, will still play with it on if it's clearly the intended game mode.
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Mar 28, 2012 18:53
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Seashell Salesman posted:On the other hand about 99% of roguelikes have no sanctioned save-scumming at all. Oftentimes (that is to say practically all the time) gamers will pick some option only because it is available, ruin their own experience, then judge the game based on that self-imposed bad gameplay. There is basically no one who has more fun save-scumming in a roguelike, but there are lots of people unfamiliar with the genre who will believe (despite anything that you or me or the creator tell them) that the default and proper way to play the game is save-scumming, and they will turn that option on and then complain incessantly. One thing to bear in mind that even NetHack has "Exploration mode", which allows you to just instantly resurrect at full health when you die. It just disables high score tracking when you turn it on; I think having a "casual mode" in Roguelike style games is fine so long as it's clearly indicated that it is NOT the intended way to play. One thing about Roguelikes though is that because death is permanent, it's also not usually as sudden as most other games. Neo Scavenger still has a bit to go before that point - dying of random diseases because you drank dirty water is fair, because that's a foreseeable consequence of your actions. Combat is still very random though and there's nothing much a player can do to improve their odds at the moment. I think for the game to be fair with permadeath, combat should probably be made a bit more strategic/skill driven, so that when a player dies it's because they made poor decisions rather than because they just got randomly killed by a strong attack.
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Mar 28, 2012 20:30
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The Cheshire Cat posted:One thing to bear in mind that even NetHack has "Exploration mode", which allows you to just instantly resurrect at full health when you die. It just disables high score tracking when you turn it on; I think having a "casual mode" in Roguelike style games is fine so long as it's clearly indicated that it is NOT the intended way to play. While I 100% support permadeath and especially the saves-nuked-on-death feature, yeah, Crawl is another roguelike that has Wizard mode where you can screw around and resurrect/heal/spawn items but you're locked out of a high score, because the mode is there explicitly for people to learn the game/test out stuff quickly rather than having to test it "live" (if they even can test it since it requires the RNG to comply in a "real" game to give you items and stuff you want to experiment with). Really though I care much less about that and much more about the core gameplay itself; imo it's the people who are "HELL YES EXPLORATION AND PERMADEATH" who are playing the beta with its relative lack of content rather than people eager to learn the game. The time to implement a competent and user-friendly testing mode (it'd have to be user-friendly because the target is people who are learning with the secondary focus on experienced players who want to test out wacky poo poo) would, imo, be better spent on fleshing out the game more, and then at a later milestone revisit the idea of a learning mode for people who haven't spent hours of their lives playing roguelikes. Tempora Mutantur fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Mar 28, 2012 |
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Mar 28, 2012 20:35
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