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I'm curious how people are looking at Navi. What would it need to accomplish to be a buy? Assuming the drivers are iffy (not a given but afaik that's the general current take for their lineup) how powerful or how cheap would it have to be? How much is DLSS2 and better foundational driver support worth? That's the real head scratcher I've been thinking about - how is this generation going to play out competition-wise, and what makes each brand worth buying (or what should make each brand worth buying in your estimation) and what strategic goals should AMD have to survive and thrive in a post- DLSS2 world. The rumor mill seems confident that Nvidia is pretty scared of AMD right now and is, theoretically, moving the 3080 to G102 in order to ensure advantage. Assuming that's true, I wonder what AMD pulls out to equalize. Price, clearly, being a major lever. A potentially smaller process node, beneficial as well assuming it's true. But is that enough? Where does AMD want to go from here? Taima fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jul 3, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 19:20
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I don't think AMD could do anything to interest me. Unless the 3000 series is absolutely terrible, I'm going to be buying one. AMD is out of consideration for me for at least a few years. Look how bad the teething problems have been with Navi, and then imagine how much worse they'll get when adding RT hardware. No thanks.
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Jul 3, 2020 19:27
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We have seen a significant number of games on big navi with ray tracing already, including the only appearance of unreal engine 5 The question is just how well the hardware will translate into the pc space Zedsdeadbaby fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jul 3, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 19:36
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:We have seen a significant number of games on big navi with ray tracing already, including the only appearance of unreal engine 5 Notably, this is on console where the console makers are doing a lot of the software stuff to get this stuff working. AMD hasn't shown in the past that console based optimizations translate particularly well to PC.
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Jul 3, 2020 19:42
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Taima posted:The rumor mill seems confident that Nvidia is pretty scared of AMD right now Yeah, don't think this is particularly true.
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Jul 3, 2020 20:21
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Nvidia's competition is and will continue to be themselves (although they would be dumb not to be looking at what AMD have done to intel and taking notes on strategy), their business model is based on producing a product that's so much better than their previous product that their customers come back to spend more money. It's impossible for a graphics card to be 'too good' because their symbiotic relationship with games developers is always pushing the envelope forwards. The only thing they need to be scared of is that people will look at DLSS and go 'but my monitor is 1440p, I just don't need to upscale and the generalised performance improvements aren't worth it.
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Jul 3, 2020 21:50
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Nvidia’s primary competition is Google. Jensen’s been talking about positioning Nvidia as a cloud compute company and if you look at their revenue by business segments, their main path for growth is the data center space. Google launched their first TPU in 2017 and its current iteration (v3) is faster than the A100 - it’s funny when you look at Nvidia’s performance numbers on marketing material for the A100 and they don’t mention TPUs because of the performance gap. Nvidia has enjoyed the overlap in compute requirements between gaming and ML for a couple years but to be able to continuously push the envelope, their professional cards are starting to diverge from their consumer cards significantly. Shoving ML use-cases in consumer cards (RTX voice and DLSS) is an attempt to mitigate that but it’s going to become more and more of a problem. They have a much smaller research budget than Google. The other interesting albeit more tenuous long term trend is cloud gaming. Google screwed up with Stadia but with xCloud, you’re going to see Microsoft offer XSX streaming - there’s an interesting opportunity to roll out GPUs in the data center for gaming. Professionally as an ML guy, I’ve migrated from using Nvidia hardware exclusively (both local hardware and cloud) to Nvidia local and Google TPUs. I see fresh graduates becoming more familiar with the Google stack - Kaggle offers a thousand bucks a month of TPU usage free to all users etc. The software stack for ML is starting to be more optimized for TPUs rather than Nvidia cards which is usually a bad sign.
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Jul 3, 2020 22:10
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Horizon Zero Dawn is launching on Steam/Epic Aug 7. No DLSS yet which is odd considering Death Stranding on the same Decima engine is using it.
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Jul 4, 2020 00:23
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shrike82 posted:Horizon Zero Dawn is launching on Steam/Epic Aug 7. AMD is giving away HZD with Ryzen CPUs and Nvidia is apparently going to give away Death Stranding with RTX GPUs so it's probably a partnership thing Even if the engine work is done you're probably not going to see DLSS in AMD partnered games
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Jul 4, 2020 00:30
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Man I did like Death Stranding but Nvidia really got the poo poo end of the stick there. HZD is fantastic.
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Jul 4, 2020 01:45
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Watching the PC trailer for Horizon, it's amazing how fast expectations about game graphics change. I remember thinking it looked gorgeous in 2017 on the PS4 but now, the human faces don't look great and the landscapes don't really stand out as they did just a couple years back.
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Jul 4, 2020 03:01
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Taima posted:Man I did like Death Stranding but Nvidia really got the poo poo end of the stick there. HZD is fantastic. I don’t think DLSS 2.0 is going to be a huge thing for Death Stranding and I don’t think it would make a big difference in HZD. Usually when I want DLSS it’s because I’m playing something with ray tracing and actually need the performance boost, and DS won’t have RTX. I can’t imagine either game is really going to push a 2000 series card all that hard.
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Jul 4, 2020 03:06
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I can’t imagine either game is really going to push a 2000 series card all that hard. Hopefully you are correct, but never underestimate the ability for studios to do impressively lovely ports that run like crap for no reason whatsoever.
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Jul 4, 2020 03:49
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DrDork posted:Hopefully you are correct, but never underestimate the ability for studios to do impressively lovely ports that run like crap for no reason whatsoever. HZD recommends a 1060 for 1080p/60, ditto for Death Stranding. I can’t see a way that they could gently caress up a port bad enough that even a 2060 can’t handle 1440p/60 for either. I do hope DS has a benchmarking tool, though. I really want to compare results with DLSS on/off. The only game I have that uses it and has a benchmark tool is Youngblood.
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Jul 4, 2020 04:03
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You guys don't have to wait  
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Jul 4, 2020 04:11
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A 2060 managing 4k60 via DLSS quality mode is super impressive.
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Jul 4, 2020 07:54
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shrike82 posted:You guys don't have to wait Those non-DLSS numbers are making me feel good about my 1080Ti in HZD and Death Stranding for 1440p ultrawide
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Jul 4, 2020 17:56
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Those are max setting framerates too - I'd imagine FPS gets a huge boost just setting one below it.
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Jul 4, 2020 18:09
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Yeah looks like DLSS won't really be necessary for most people who are able to use it  Still it'll be another data point to see how well it works across different games.
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Jul 4, 2020 18:12
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These are still average FPS, not 1%. HZD did 60 average on, what was it, 1060? But it had dips to 40-something. Worth keeping in mind. DLSS numbers look promising though.
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Jul 4, 2020 18:47
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repiv posted:Yeah looks like DLSS won't really be necessary for most people who are able to use it Agreed. Doesn't seem like the base game is taxing enough to make it a big deal either way (besides specific use cases like the 2060 as noted), though farn's thought on the 1% is a good point. Out of curiosity, does DLSS2 consistently perform better at 4K? I've kinda glossed over the lower resolutions previously. The real deal benchmarks will surely be CP2077 with its combination of RTX and demanding baseline. That's the DLSS wheelhouse right there. I'm really hoping that the high-end 3000 parts can do CP2077 with full rays at 4K/90 or better using DLSS2. Maybe that's asking a lot though. Much will depend on if these rumors of significantly improved RTX efficiency turn out to be true. Taima fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 4, 2020 |
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Jul 4, 2020 19:02
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It takes around 1ms for DLSS to do its processing, so at very high framerates it become less beneficial. Obviously a PS4 port isn't going to be that demanding unless they really go out of their way to make it so, which it seems they have not.
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Jul 4, 2020 21:17
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Which makes me think CP2077 is going to be a clusterfuck. W3 was a mess when it launched and people have even higher expectations of a game that has to run on the base X1S. We still haven’t seen any RTX effects on the game so it’s likely being bolted onto the game as a last minute thing. PC gamers have been coasting on games having to target consoles. Next gen having good multi core CPUs, GPUs, and faster than PC-equivalent SSDs is going to push PC gaming specs - the 4C PC with upgraded GPU isn’t going to cut it.
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Jul 4, 2020 22:40
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shrike82 posted:We still haven’t seen any RTX effects on the game so it’s likely being bolted onto the game as a last minute thing.
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Jul 4, 2020 22:57
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Combat Pretzel posted:Uh, they did on last years demo? It included the famous in-game energy drink ad display that spawned three million pages of feisty discussion in this thread. They only had RT global illumination during the initial RTX reveal last year though, the reflections and shadows were added more recently.
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Jul 4, 2020 23:03
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Watch the DF video covering the latest gameplay preview, they couldn’t detect any RTX effects being applied.
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Jul 4, 2020 23:18
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I think the only game I've played with RTX so far was Metro: Exodus, and while it was pretty I didn't see a massive difference in image quality with it on or off. It was a little nicer, sure, but not staggeringly so. I don't feel like it was the best example, though - the game was buggy enough that I was getting more and more annoyed with it, and that may have brought in some bias. On a different note, I just played Titanfall 2 and was playing with Nvidia postprocessing stuff and swear it made things look great. I ramped up extra AA and added some sharpening from the Nvidia Control Panel and the game looked really good despite being a few years old.
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Jul 4, 2020 23:29
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CaptainSarcastic posted:
Control is basically the gold standard for RTX (and DLSS) implementation right now. It looks goddamn incredible in there. I was also pretty pleased with the Shadow of the Tomb Raider ray tracing, it works really well with the leaves and whatnot in the jungle.
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Jul 4, 2020 23:38
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Control is basically the gold standard for RTX (and DLSS) implementation right now. It looks goddamn incredible in there. I was also pretty pleased with the Shadow of the Tomb Raider ray tracing, it works really well with the leaves and whatnot in the jungle. I just looked it up and I wish it wasn't 3rd person. I'm used to playing with keyboard and mouse and really prefer 1st person games. I have a Steam controller but I have yet to play a full game with it (I've owned for over a year, at least - I forget).
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Jul 4, 2020 23:47
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I just looked it up and I wish it wasn't 3rd person. I'm used to playing with keyboard and mouse and really prefer 1st person games. I have a Steam controller but I have yet to play a full game with it (I've owned for over a year, at least - I forget). Do you have an aversion to playing third person games with mouse and keyboard? I completed control with a mouse and keyboard just fine, no need for a controller.
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Jul 5, 2020 00:05
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shrike82 posted:Which makes me think CP2077 is going to be a clusterfuck. W3 was a mess when it launched and people have even higher expectations of a game that has to run on the base X1S. We still haven’t seen any RTX effects on the game so it’s likely being bolted onto the game as a last minute thing. It’s good to have low expectations, but CDPR is coming off of delivering in a big way with The Witcher 3. Combine that with the amount of dev support Nvidia is pouring into them and it makes them one of the few studios I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to. I could be completely wrong when it the time comes — I’d be surprised though if I were.
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Jul 5, 2020 00:11
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People’s expectations for 2077 are so, so high that I think people are cruising for disappointment. At the end of the day it is a game, not jacking into the matrix. And it took CDPR three iterations to get Witcher 3, the first and second iterations are not nearly as fun, so who knows if they will nail fun and interesting game mechanics with the first try in their cyberpunk universe. Also heresy but while I love Witcher 3 as a game, the combat mechanics are not good, you can go the whole game just cheesing the shield spell and mashing m1. The only thing I found challenging even on highest difficulty were the griffin fights and the fistfight battles. And if you don’t like the story, the open world exploring, or gwent then well, that doesn’t leave much.
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Jul 5, 2020 01:31
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Agreed, CP2077 is going to be really big for Nvidia and they know it. It's going to be the biggest release of the year, and if Witcher 3 was any indication, may walk away with most of the game of the year awards. Nvidia has a big vested interest in making sure DLSS2.0 and RTX are well implemented and bug free in it.
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Jul 5, 2020 01:32
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B-Mac posted:Do you have an aversion to playing third person games with mouse and keyboard? I completed control with a mouse and keyboard just fine, no need for a controller. It really varies from game to game. Some are fine with mouse and keyboard, but I've played some where it was so clearly designed for a controller that it was seriously unpleasant to play on mouse and keyboard. A lot of fighting/melee mechanics that rely on combos and such come to mind as often just not working well without a controller. I think it was mostly a case of a bad port, but I remember LA Noire being so obnoxious that I stopped playing it in large part because it seemed to really assume you were using a controller.
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Jul 5, 2020 01:33
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CaptainSarcastic posted:It really varies from game to game. Some are fine with mouse and keyboard, but I've played some where it was so clearly designed for a controller that it was seriously unpleasant to play on mouse and keyboard. A lot of fighting/melee mechanics that rely on combos and such come to mind as often just not working well without a controller. I think it was mostly a case of a bad port, but I remember LA Noire being so obnoxious that I stopped playing it in large part because it seemed to really assume you were using a controller. There are certainly games designed with a controller in mind but I don’t feel Control is one of those, it plays very well with K + M.
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Jul 5, 2020 02:37
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B-Mac posted:There are certainly games designed with a controller in mind but I don’t feel Control is one of those, it plays very well with K + M. I'll keep an eye out for it. The whole controller versus keyboard and mouse thing is kind of in the forefront of my mind right now because last night I was going to start playing Outer Wilds and the first thing it did was put up a splash page saying it was designed for a controller. I didn't feel like finding batteries and learning to use my Steam controller so went with another game instead.
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Jul 5, 2020 02:44
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I'll keep an eye out for it. The whole controller versus keyboard and mouse thing is kind of in the forefront of my mind right now because last night I was going to start playing Outer Wilds and the first thing it did was put up a splash page saying it was designed for a controller. I didn't feel like finding batteries and learning to use my Steam controller so went with another game instead. Get a wired xbone controller. I’d rather play a game with a dog turd than my steam controller. I got one for five bucks when they were firesaling them because they failed so hard, and that still feels like a ripoff.
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Jul 5, 2020 02:46
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I'll keep an eye out for it. The whole controller versus keyboard and mouse thing is kind of in the forefront of my mind right now because last night I was going to start playing Outer Wilds and the first thing it did was put up a splash page saying it was designed for a controller. I didn't feel like finding batteries and learning to use my Steam controller so went with another game instead. I think this is honestly garbage regarding Outer Wilds. It's got a first person shooter interface. I tried with a controller at first, and almost immediately switched back to mouse+keyboard. The one and only thing that you don't have with mouse+keyboard is good throttle control, and that is only a significant issue in one area in the entire game, where for very spoilerish reasons you don't want to use above like 5% throttle. Despite that, the area is still totally doable otherwise, even if you have to get a little creative with not using the throttle at all at certain times. When you do play, make sure you are able to toast the marshmallow when you first start (it's a campfire literally right in front of you when you start, so it's not any kind of spoiler.) There is a bug for PC that breaks both controller and keyboard interactions and if you don't seem to be able to interact as expected there you will need to uncheck the box for the controller in the settings. Mistikman fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 02:52
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RE CP versus W3, modeling a (post)-modern city is a lot harder than a medieval fantasyland from a content standpoint. It's harder to foster a suspension of disbelief if you're traversing dense urban areas with high-rises and you can't interact with most stuff. Watching the latest preview where they drove around the city, it seemed like most of the city is filled with dummy storefronts and the flow is going from one setpiece hub to another a la GTA/SR. IMO, the modern Deus Ex games have been the best attempt at capturing the feel of a city in game but even then, they're modelling a couple blocks of a mid-sized town and cramming a lot of detail in the smaller area.
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Jul 5, 2020 02:55
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I'll keep an eye out for it. The whole controller versus keyboard and mouse thing is kind of in the forefront of my mind right now because last night I was going to start playing Outer Wilds and the first thing it did was put up a splash page saying it was designed for a controller. I didn't feel like finding batteries and learning to use my Steam controller so went with another game instead. I played through all of the outer wilds K+M, and there is only 1 section that is about 3 minutes long that it's a little clunky, but in fairness it'd be clunky with a controller. Ignore that splash page, it's wrong, the game is one of the best games I've ever played.
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Jul 5, 2020 04:42
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