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hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Did GloFoís 7nm actually work?

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Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


hobbesmaster posted:

Did GloFoís 7nm actually work?

supposedly, and it was supposedly going to be great, although of course everyone says their node is going to work and it's going to be great (hello intel). I would imagine it probably would not have been as good as TSMC 7nm, TSMC seems to be ahead of everyone, but as a wild guess it probably wouldn't have been too much different from the position Samsung is in with their 7nm node. Not the best, but fine especially for smaller things like phone SOCs and chiplets.

supposedly the hump they couldn't get over was that the only suitable fab building they had was the one that housed their 14nm lines, so they would have had to stop production for 6 months to tear out equipment that had only just started to turn a profit and install their 7nm line, which they just didn't want to do. Which just seems like stunningly poor planning to spend all that money developing it and then not going the last mile because of an obstacle that should have been incredibly obvious at the planning stages

hobbesmaster posted:

Well, this is the month where nothing gets produced so once it was still bad in January it was going to get worst during CNY.

yeah I hope this is the worst of it, it's the double whammy of Lunar New Year and nothing getting produced plus Ethereum miners stripping the shelves bare because crypto prices are sky-high again. If you wanna play the GPU flipping game now is probably a good time to sell, but getting more cards is going to be difficult, especially at any sort of a reasonable price (all the 3080 drops are $1200 now).

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Feb 23, 2021

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Paul MaudDib posted:

supposedly, and it was supposedly going to be great, although of course everyone says their node is going to work and it's going to be great (hello intel). I would imagine it probably would not have been as good as TSMC 7nm, TSMC seems to be ahead of everyone, but as a wild guess it probably wouldn't have been too much different from the position Samsung is in with their 7nm node. Not the best, but fine especially for smaller things like phone SOCs and chiplets.

supposedly the hump they couldn't get over was that the only suitable fab building they had was the one that housed their 14nm lines, so they would have had to stop production for 6 months to tear out equipment that had only just started to turn a profit and install their 7nm line, which they just didn't want to do. Which just seems like stunningly poor planning to spend all that money developing it and then not going the last mile because of an obstacle that should have been incredibly obvious at the planning stages

Hasnít Intel claimed that their 10nm and 7nm is just fine and coming out any quarter now for years?

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


mA posted:

These are how much the last 6 3080 FE's have sold for on ebay. The first two might be fake bidders, but everything else has sold for no less than $2000



And people told me computer hardware was a bad investment smh

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Paul MaudDib posted:

but yeah in general the last year has been a wakeup call that everyone is overly dependent on TSMC and really needs their own fabs. The EU and the US basically have a couple Intel fabs and some previous-node GloFo stuff and that's really it, the US has that little TSMC fab going up in Arizona, and the EU just launched a big incentive program this week for fab development. Ford's production lines getting shut down due to chip shortages was a big alarm bell for policymakers I think.

this might require billions of dollars of subsidizing and still in the end be less than cutting edge, right?

nnnotime
Sep 30, 2001

Hesitate, and you will be lost.

Shipon posted:

Ahahah jesus I just looked at the 3090 prices on eBay, $3000+
Holy crap! Just a few weeks ago the 3090's were around $1800-$2,000. That makes me feel better about my Alienware purchase equipped with their oddball 3090. And now the 32GB Aurora Desktop model I bought is no longer offered on Dell's site, but the 128GB model is still available. The 128GB version doesn't seem like a good as deal since they don't offer any discounts.

This is the remaining high-end 128GB model I referred to. If interested call their Sales line to see if they will offer a discount. Maybe the extra memory can be sold off.
https://www.dell.com/en-us/member/shop/desktop-computers/alienware-aurora-r11-gaming-desktop/spd/alienware-aurora-r11-desktop/wdaurr11mxs

Also note that Microcenter also sells the Alienware Auroras, some with 3090's and some with Ryzen GPUs, just have to check their website to see what's in stock.

nnnotime fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Feb 23, 2021

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

They sell two computers with 3090s, the Alienware Aurora R11 with a 10900KF for $3500 and the HP Omen 30L with a 10850K for $3000.

With 3080s, they've got four desktops and a laptop. The secret to browsing OOS stuff on MC's website is to click the tab above the search results that's greyed out a bit that mentions "Items Found."

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Wonder if cards are going to hit prices where a workstation prebuilt is going to be competitive

The Grumbles
Jun 5, 2006

let the anger flow through your salt beef filling

buglord posted:

Yeah l was looking to get rid of my 1070 for $180 back in Dec when I snagged a 3070, was worried the 1070 would continue to depreciate as time went on.

Had I waited I would have gotten a lot more

3070 seems to be pretty anemic with RTX at 1440p resolutions, at least with my experience in Control and Cyperpunk. A little let down, but baked in lighting still looks good even if itís not organic. Given the choice between RTX or better frame rates, Iím going with the latter. DLSS is wizard magic though and Iím really excited to see how that will mature on both team green/red/blue as time goes on.

e: I guess this is to say, if anyone here manages to snag an AMD GPU but feels like theyíre missing out with RTX, my opinion is ďnot reallyĒ.

I haven't tried Cyberpunk, but Control with RTX and DLSS runs incredibly well and looks gorgeous for me at 1440p with my 3070. Feels like it's going at well over 60fps. Is your CPU a little long in the tooth?

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013



If I could guarantee getting a new card I'd absolutely be flipping my 1080Ti for...check ebay.


Lmao £600, that's more than I paid for it.

Shipon
Nov 7, 2005


I just assume everyone on ebay is scammers scamming each other, I don't know how anyone trusts it at all with the horror stories I've heard.

The Grumbles
Jun 5, 2006

let the anger flow through your salt beef filling

There are a few obvious scams on eBay - people selling photos of items etc - but there's a lot of buyer protection built in. I've never had a bad experience with it. Generally, if something seems way too good to be true, then avoid it. Otherwise, buying/selling on eBay has always been really straightforward. It's been a much cleaner and saner experience than, say FB marketplace, which is just a load of strangers shouting at you through Facebook messenger, trying to convince you to let them have whatever it is at half the price you've listed.

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013



eBay almost always sides with the buyer too.

Sometimes to it's detriment

Stanley Tucheetos
May 15, 2012



This is getting ridiculous. My nearly 5 year old 1070 is selling for what I bought it for.

Ebola Dog
Apr 3, 2011

Dinosaurs are directly related to turtles!


CyberPingu posted:

If I could guarantee getting a new card I'd absolutely be flipping my 1080Ti for...check ebay.


Lmao £600, that's more than I paid for it.

I'm trying to get hold of a 3060ti or maybe a 3070 for this reason, if I can get one for an ok price because then I can sell my powercolor red devil 5700xt for around £750 (Paid £350 for it a year ago). Even with ebay fees that will cover a 3060ti at least, maybe a 3070, and mean I get a upgrade for free essentially. Best thing is there is nothing wrong with my current card so if I can't get a new one then it's no big issue.

ufarn
May 30, 2009


Ethereum prices seem to be crashing, so that's nice at least.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013



e. not the thread to talk about crypto price dips sorry

GRECOROMANGRABASS
May 14, 2020


gradenko_2000 posted:

Wonder if cards are going to hit prices where a workstation prebuilt is going to be competitive

That kinda already happened with Alienware gaming pcs - my buddy could only find a 1070 during the mining boom of that time by purchasing the whole system from Alienware.

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010


I really need to RMA this 2060s so I can make a profit from it and buy a new phone with the money

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

GRECOROMANGRABASS posted:

That kinda already happened with Alienware gaming pcs - my buddy could only find a 1070 during the mining boom of that time by purchasing the whole system from Alienware.

Yeah that's why I made that comment: I know that the market is bad enough that buying a gaming PC prebuilt is becoming a feasible approach, I'm thinking if it's going to get crazy enough that even something like a Threadripper or an Intel HEDT platform is going to have similar numbers.

The Grumbles
Jun 5, 2006

let the anger flow through your salt beef filling

Saw this in a youtube video about that Nvidia FX5800 - the one that sounds like a leafblower - and it made me laugh. Another fine example from the golden era of 'x-treme to the point of marginalising people' PC component marketing.

Even better is that the card itself is just an Nvidia reference card with the word 'Asylum' slapped on the cooler. Good lord.



I seem remember my first graphics card had some kind of actual sexy elf lady printed on the housing itself. I think it was a Geforce 200 series? I'm glad the industrial design of these things has gone more in the 'muscle car' machismo direction instead of continuing down the 'teenage boy's poster' road. Neither is ideal , but I won't feel embarrassed for my hobby if my partner saw the former.

The Grumbles fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Feb 23, 2021

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


I do not recommend Ebay for selling equipment if you can help it - I sold both my old 970 and 1080 on Facebook Market. No cut, no returns, cash only and collection only - market is so idiotically hot right now you can price at like, still silly prices and get bites very quickly. Be intelligent (and through) about your listing, where you do the handoff etc (banks used to be the best but now grocery stores with ATMs is what I settle for) and honest about the things you are selling.

I got an EVGA XC3 Ultra 3070 for 584 quid delivered after about a week of looking which I am very happy with. In my case it was a report from a stock discord that scan.co.uk were accepting order requests via their messaging service then parleying that into talking to a sales rep on the phone because "well, your other rep said to call this number" and being polite and kind in my interactions with a very very tired sounding salesperson at 1728 on a Friday. I also as aftercare wrote a very kind letter thanking him personally to his customer service department, then following their request putting a very positive review up on Trustpilot. I got very, very, very very very lucky, but cards do exist and a combination of fortune and being nice managed to get me sorted. I recommend it - these reps go from being screamed at by miners to being screamed at by gamers, and a little honey goes a long way.

change my name
Aug 27, 2007

Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.



The Grumbles posted:

I haven't tried Cyberpunk, but Control with RTX and DLSS runs incredibly well and looks gorgeous for me at 1440p with my 3070. Feels like it's going at well over 60fps. Is your CPU a little long in the tooth?

Same, I can definitely hit 60+ fps on my 3060 ti with RTX enabled. Cyberpunk is stuck in the 40s, though.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Cyberpunk is just an especially difficult game to run and I wish people would stop using it as a measuring stick for picking out hardware unless you really really really just want to run that one game.

Even within the space of "but I want to see what RTX/DLSS can do" you still have Control and COD BLOPS COLD WAR and Shadow of the Tomb Raider

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Sold my 3 year old 1080ti complete with power supply for my full asking price of $650 locally about a month ago. gently caress online sales and gently caress ebay in particular.

ufarn
May 30, 2009


Is eBay less of a gamble for a seller these days, or are people just willing to take the risk to flip their GPUs/PS5s? I guess you can make it up on margin if you're one of the organized scalper dorks.

CyberPingu
Sep 15, 2013



ufarn posted:

Is eBay less of a gamble for a seller these days, or are people just willing to take the risk to flip their GPUs/PS5s? I guess you can make it up on margin if you're one of the organized scalper dorks.

Eh, I've personally never had an issue as a seller. But YMMV

GutBomb
Jun 15, 2005

Dude?


I sold my 2080 on eBay when I got a 3080 in mid January for $650 and had no issues. I sell a lot of old hardware on eBay when I get new stuff, and also buy and sell a lot of retro game stuff (some old, some new peripherals like flash carts, modded consoles, etc) 2 or 3 items a month. Iíve only had one problem this year and it was something that legit got lost in the mail. Some RAM I ended up having to give the guy a refund on.

eBay is mostly fine.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

The US has had fab facilities for national security reasons (not for every dang CPU, just specific sensitive projects) but it was getting too expensive, falling further and further behind the state of the art, so it's been gone for years. So if our military industrial complex levels of grift and corruption with that massive budget wasn't enough it's doubtful we'd be able to fund anything competitive with even Intel's fabs. I'm privvy to the kind of budget the US intelligence community has at least and I'm laughing that people think we can afford to do crazy crap like buy out Google or something. People severely overestimate the technical capabilities of US DoD (thankfully, I guess) but severely underestimate its underhandedness in global and domestic affairs to accomplish the objectives that would require orders of magnitude higher budget. As much as we blow insane amounts of money on completely stupid things there are clearly budgets setup mostly in terms of political weight and importance (because all bureaucracies are socially mediated), not functional or even rational risks to our national security.

US innovation risks due to all the brain drain toward rent-seeking industries (and geographic regions, at that) instead of more raw productive ones is a serious issue that was accelerated by the last presidential administration when his supporters were acting like it was lower-skill manufacturing that would come back. Really, to get serious fabs in public sector in the US we need much higher skilled manufacturing to be able to support the labor structure costs here in the US even if China and Taiwan were on par with the US in supply chain geolocation and all the other logistical aspects. Not exactly happening when most of our blue collar workers have been coerced into into being independent contractors to make ends meet and corrosive individualism, anti-intellectualism and anti-education are intertwined, and free market propaganda is the norm here politically.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Cyberpunk is just an especially difficult game to run and I wish people would stop using it as a measuring stick for picking out hardware unless you really really really just want to run that one game.

Even within the space of "but I want to see what RTX/DLSS can do" you still have Control and COD BLOPS COLD WAR and Shadow of the Tomb Raider
It's not clear whether Cyberpunk is badly optimized system like Crysis was or if it's trying to fit too much stuff in general into a frame budget. But really, multiple DLSS and raytracing titles should be compared given variance in implementation anyway.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on






Pillbug

Iím seeing 2070S going for more than a grand on eBay, Jesus, thatís like what I paid for the entire prebuilt I got one in.

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

necrobobsledder posted:

The US has had fab facilities for national security reasons (not for every dang CPU, just specific sensitive projects) but it was getting too expensive, falling further and further behind the state of the art, so it's been gone for years. So if our military industrial complex levels of grift and corruption with that massive budget wasn't enough it's doubtful we'd be able to fund anything competitive with even Intel's fabs. I'm privvy to the kind of budget the US intelligence community has at least and I'm laughing that people think we can afford to do crazy crap like buy out Google or something. People severely overestimate the technical capabilities of US DoD (thankfully, I guess) but severely underestimate its underhandedness in global and domestic affairs to accomplish the objectives that would require orders of magnitude higher budget. As much as we blow insane amounts of money on completely stupid things there are clearly budgets setup mostly in terms of political weight and importance (because all bureaucracies are socially mediated), not functional or even rational risks to our national security.

US innovation risks due to all the brain drain toward rent-seeking industries (and geographic regions, at that) instead of more raw productive ones is a serious issue that was accelerated by the last presidential administration when his supporters were acting like it was lower-skill manufacturing that would come back. Really, to get serious fabs in public sector in the US we need much higher skilled manufacturing to be able to support the labor structure costs here in the US even if China and Taiwan were on par with the US in supply chain geolocation and all the other logistical aspects. Not exactly happening when most of our blue collar workers have been coerced into into being independent contractors to make ends meet and corrosive individualism, anti-intellectualism and anti-education are intertwined, and free market propaganda is the norm here politically.
It's not clear whether Cyberpunk is badly optimized system like Crysis was or if it's trying to fit too much stuff in general into a frame budget. But really, multiple DLSS and raytracing titles should be compared given variance in implementation anyway.

You used to be able to just retreat into your hobbies and game away your troubles. But it seems the political problems of the US are now festering and invading every aspect of everyone's lives... We're going to regress into some kind of agrarian feudalist slave state before long because any productive aspect of the economy will be converted into dividend paying ATMs instead of something that actually adds measurable value to the world. The smartest people in the world are left coming up with high frequency trading algorithms and bots, bitcoin mining equipment and other things that do absolutely nothing except "make number go up". I wonder what kinds of progress we could've made as a modern society if the brilliant scientists and engineers of the USA were working on projects like space exploration, alternative energy or just traditional good and services vs financialization projects.

The Gadfly
Sep 23, 2012


Kraftwerk posted:

You used to be able to just retreat into your hobbies and game away your troubles. But it seems the political problems of the US are now festering and invading every aspect of everyone's lives... We're going to regress into some kind of agrarian feudalist slave state before long because any productive aspect of the economy will be converted into dividend paying ATMs instead of something that actually adds measurable value to the world. The smartest people in the world are left coming up with high frequency trading algorithms and bots, bitcoin mining equipment and other things that do absolutely nothing except "make number go up". I wonder what kinds of progress we could've made as a modern society if the brilliant scientists and engineers of the USA were working on projects like space exploration, alternative energy or just traditional good and services vs financialization projects.

I had a tenured engineering professor at my university who quit teaching to become a hedge fund manager. He was making 100x his investment in profit easily, growing the fund from around 1mil to 100mil. All while spending orders of magnitude less effort than it requires to research or engineer complex hardware.

The Gadfly fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Feb 23, 2021

Kraftwerk
Aug 13, 2011
i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

The Gadfly posted:

I had a tenured engineering professor at my university who quit teaching to become a hedge fund manager. He was making 100x his investment in profit easily, growing the fund from around 1mil to 100mil. All while spending orders of magnitude less effort than it requires to research or engineer complex hardware.

See this is what I'm talking about. This entire economy is incentivizing the worst get rich quick schemes ever. The worst part is that there's enough people who are getting rich in this way that if you decided to study engineering to get into design or manufacturing then you are basically a chump. You're at the mercy of razor thin margins and balance sheets at manufacturers and design firms who have to squeeze every penny out of you to post better returns to shareholders. Then when the project is done you get hit with mass layoffs and you gotta stress over your financial situation until you find a new one. That's all that will ever matter now. It won't be how many sales you make, or how good your product is but rather the stock price. In the end whatever public good capitalism has done has been overshadowed by the unrestricted greed of wall street and their influence has corrupted everything its touched.

In this context it makes perfect sense to just build a giant heat coil and absorb all the electricity the planet can produce to produce as much waste heat as possible for limitless profit.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

I'd be cool with hedge fund managers and the top 1000 companies worldwide throwing stupid money at hard, legit useful things for everyone like battery engineering and next generation non-volatile nuclear reactors but our over-financialized, virtual > physical goods world economy results in the very perverse pricing and markets now such that we're spending more time in the GPU thread talking about why we can't get enough graphics cards during a global pandemic mostly under control everywhere other than the US than arguing over whether nVidia or ATI / AMD is better like we used to do only 10 years ago maybe.

And to be fair, it's not like sitting around playing video games is exactly productive either. However, I think helping people relieve their stress more constructively than promoting alcoholism or violence is an important activity, and human creativity is something that should be encouraged, not suppressed. Unfortunately, even the lovely economics of the oversaturated groupthink nature of modern gaming means we wind up with more DLCs and free to play garbage than really creative, risky endeavors. But alas, the fundamental nature of programming has barely changed for multiple decades now unless you're in commercial software, and it's just more emphasis upon processes and whatever than making software maintenance much easier - people fetishize development velocity at the cost of maintainability and sustainability here, too. It is extremely difficult to write code that is easy to replace by a follow-up programmer. Until this situation is solved, we're kinda screwed at accelerating software development beyond incremental piecemeal gains.

Zig-Zag
Aug 29, 2007

Why don't we just start shooting tar heroin instead?

Ugly In The Morning posted:

I’m seeing 2070S going for more than a grand on eBay, Jesus, that’s like what I paid for the entire prebuilt I got one in.

Newegg has 2060s for 1100... The only cheap cards are 900 series on eBay!

EngineerJoe
Aug 8, 2004
-=whore=-



necrobobsledder posted:

I'd be cool with hedge fund managers and the top 1000 companies worldwide throwing stupid money at hard, legit useful things for everyone like battery engineering and next generation non-volatile nuclear reactors but our over-financialized, virtual > physical goods world economy results in the very perverse pricing and markets now such that we're spending more time in the GPU thread talking about why we can't get enough graphics cards during a global pandemic mostly under control everywhere other than the US than arguing over whether nVidia or ATI / AMD is better like we used to do only 10 years ago maybe.



Yeah, I mean look at Elon Musk. One kinda super rich guy throws all his money behind world changing ideas over and over again and has basically made electric cars, reusable rockets and satellite internet viable.

Now, I don't love Elon Musk but he did manage to put this all together and it's pretty amazing. I think part of it is his recklessness, and willing to lose everything if he fails.

Bill Gates tries to change the world for the better but he's so conservative that he only somewhat moves the needle.

It's very depressing, all these billionaires could at least be putting their money into R&D but they just use it to maintain their wealth and keep others down.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


Don't make me tap the sign.

terrorist ambulance
Nov 5, 2009


I'm still getting occasional black screens for 2 or 3 seconds then it comes back on its own. Cannot troubleshoot it and its driving me insane

Romes128
Dec 28, 2008




Fun Shoe

terrorist ambulance posted:

I'm still getting occasional black screens for 2 or 3 seconds then it comes back on its own. Cannot troubleshoot it and its driving me insane

change the cable

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terrorist ambulance
Nov 5, 2009


Tried different cable, monitors, graphics cards. no errors showing up in event viewer

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