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njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.

Yeah that's the other thing, both Nvidia and AMD have dedicated crypto card lines either being made or planned and are probably using the old nodes for those.

The Grumbles posted:

The problem is that manufacturing capacity gets booked months, if not years in advance - not just for the main processor, but for all the components that go into a GPU (there was an article recently about how one of the biggest bottlenecks is actually the display driver chip, which costs a fraction of a penny per unit). Most of the tech world made the wrong bet at the start of the pandemic - that demand for computery stuff would probably go down. Added to this is that the plants themselves don't want to mess with their lines because for many components they can currently get near perfect yields and everything's running super efficient.

I think it was said that Apple already has TSMC's entire 3nm capacity booked up for their next line of Macbook chips despite it not being actually in operation yet, which should give you some idea of how far in advance booking happens.

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Nothus
Feb 22, 2001




https://twitter.com/HotHardware/status/1379514285488013313?s=20

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

I'm just waiting for an "S3 Inc. restarts ViRGE production amid GPU shortages" headline

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT



sure. okay. why not. lmao

Annath
Jan 11, 2009



Clever Betty

The 1080FE/Ti is a drat sexy card. Much sleeker looking than the 30 series cards.

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

A VAST WIFE WING CONSPIRACY


I'm more inclined to think existing stock was refurbished/tested good and issued a new serial number than to think Nvidia's ramping up production of a big, expensive chip on an old node, but who knows. Everything is madness.

Paul MaudDib
May 2, 2006

"Tell me of your home world, Usul"


Fauxtool posted:

I feel I am the most qualified person to answer this, Buy a 6800 or 6800xt. They are some of the least scalped because they are poo poo at mining. The 6700xt is okay at mining but people havent fully caught on so its also ok priced.

(Trying to touch on as little of mining as possible to make this point, but this is one of those things where mining has an impact on the rest of the market and so the mining performance is relevant:)

AMD cards aren't poo poo at mining, just not as good as the NVIDIA ones. 6800 is around 10% better at mining than a 3070 for example - so you wouldn't expect it to ever sell for significantly less than a 3070 on ebay, and it will actually probably be higher. When a 3070 sells for $1400, AMD is not just going to be able to casually slide in and hit MSRP, at MSRP it would be a very attractive card for mining considering the alternative. They could crank out way higher than normal production volume and still never come close to touching MSRP, just like NVIDIA.

(of course this is cherrypicking a little bit since 3060 Ti mines at the same rate as 3070 as well, 3070 is one of the less attractive cards in the lineup as far as miners are concerned, but it goes to show that RDNA2 isn't as hideously bad a miner card as everyone seems to think, it's a decent chunk faster than 3060 Ti/3070 and those are considered worthwhile to mine with. At any kind of a reasonable price it would become worth it to scoop up RDNA2 cards too.)

the reason mining farms aren't scooping up RDNA2 cards in bulk is much more related to just not being able to get ahold of them, RDNA2 production is a fraction of the already insufficient NVIDIA production. The absolute highest estimate I've seen is that AMD sales on Mindfactory are around 40% of the market and frankly that number is wildly higher than anyone else's to the extent that I wonder if they are shipping most of their european inventory to Mindfactory because they know people track that one. Jon Peddie has them at 17% of the market (so, basically half of the Mindfactory number) and even that seems high from the Steam Hardware Survey numbers, where they don't have a single card that has shipped enough units to avoid falling into the catch-all "other" category. Or maybe farms actually are scooping up a decent number and that's why there's the disconnect between JPR and the Steam numbers?

tbh I wonder if AMD's social-media machine isn't quietly pushing the "RDNA2 is bad for mining! nope don't buy these, miners stay away!" memes. Companies definitely do care who is buying their product, miner sales aren't a real sale of a unit to a customer that will keep it forever, miners will sell it in a year when it makes sense, and that will offset future sales. It is a "pull forward" of future revenue. AMD has gotten repeatedly burned by this, twice now, culminating in a big inventory bubble that took the best part of a year to sell through. Now they are to the point where they're even designing their hardware to try and avoid that happening again, quietly pushing the "AMD = bad at mining" idea in social media wuold make a lot of sense.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Apr 7, 2021

Statutory Ape
Sep 12, 2017




I don't know poo poo about poo poo, but I feel like they're not manufacturing any new 1080ti's? So its roughly as performant as a 3060ti but with more RAM and none of the improvements made since. Where do you even price an 11 GB card that competes with your midrange that probably has, what, 8? Why wouldn't you just call it a 1770 or something and cut some of the RAM.

smells like april fools to me imho

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Hasturtium posted:

I'm more inclined to think existing stock was refurbished/tested good and issued a new serial number than to think Nvidia's ramping up production of a big, expensive chip on an old node, but who knows. Everything is madness.

Manufacturers do hold back chips sometimes. I wonder what the date code on the GPU silicon itself is.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



shuffle up for another 45 minutes

Collateral
Feb 17, 2010


Annath posted:

The 1080FE/Ti is a drat sexy card. Much sleeker looking than the 30 series cards.

If they are £200/$260 mark? They will sell very well.

What were 1080ti's going for pre madness.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


Collateral posted:

If they are £200/$260 mark? They will sell very well.

What were 1080ti's going for pre madness.

No way in hell would a new 1080 Ti sell for £200, even before things started going to poo poo, they were selling routinely for double that used. I paid roughly £450~ for a used MSI 1080 Ti Gaming X back in February 2019, as a point of comparison. £200 is a total fantasy, that even if it some how came to pass, would be instantly scalped to £600+
I don't see how they could price it to make sense; it's large and complex, with a lot of nice GDDR5X.

vv For sure, and this time the problem is compounded by other factors

HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Apr 7, 2021

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


This is the worst GPU prices have been, right? Beating out all the previous mining crazes?

Collateral
Feb 17, 2010


HalloKitty posted:

No way in hell would a new 1080 Ti sell for £200, even before things started going to poo poo, they were selling routinely for double that used

Then why bother, other than to get rid of old stock. In which case they are not new, and why bother bringing an old card to market that outcompetes your bottom stack card, and charge less for it.


Rinkles posted:

This is the worst GPU prices have been, right? Beating out all the previous mining crazes?

Good, the greater the peak, the more precipitous the crash. So we can hope the crash come like 2ms before these cash grab cards come to market.

Collateral
Feb 17, 2010


I really hope nvidia get the gored chasing a fickle bull.

MonkeyLibFront
Feb 26, 2003
Where's the cake?

Collateral posted:

Good, the greater the peak, the more precipitous the crash. So we can hope the crash come like 2ms before these cash grab cards come to market.

I get the feeling this generation won't crash, I mean the 20xx series never really crashed in price.

The Grumbles
Jun 5, 2006

let the anger flow through your salt beef filling

Rinkles posted:

This is the worst GPU prices have been, right? Beating out all the previous mining crazes?


Yeah I think so. I skipped out on the 1000 generation because I remember prices being crazy around then due to crypto (and there was a lot of talk about how miners would offload their cards for cheap eventually... which never seemed to materialise), but this is way more insane. During the last one, with a bit of work/perseverance (which I didn;'t have, it still seemed like you could get your card at its normal price. The fact that most cards are costing twice what an entire PC build would normally be is just bananas.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Collateral posted:

I really hope nvidia get the gored chasing a fickle bull.

If they can get them out the door in 6 months there's basically no way they won't be able to sell them for $500+ minimum. No idea what it's costing them to get them out the door, but they've got a much longer runway for this than in the past where the only real thing pushing up prices was the crypto bubble. Even if that pops you've still got enormous demand for cards and a competitor who has all but bowed out of this generation (after producing their first legitimately competitive set of cards in close to a decade--can you imagine how pissed off those dev teams have to be?).

Comfy Fleece Sweater
Apr 2, 2013

You see, but you do not observe.

Breaking News, the Voodoo3d has restarted production in order to cash in on the GPU shortage

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


Oven Wrangler

Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

Breaking News, the Voodoo3d has restarted production in order to cash in on the GPU shortage

Yesssssssssssssss

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

Breaking News, the Voodoo3d has restarted production in order to cash in on the GPU shortage

3dfx loyalists vindicated at last

Kunabomber
Oct 1, 2002



Pillbug

go check out how much AGP Voodoo5s go for on ebay, it will print money

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005





Kunabomber posted:

go check out how much AGP Voodoo5s go for on ebay, it will print money

wh-why.....

Kunabomber
Oct 1, 2002



Pillbug

some people really love their retro machines, and the voodoo5s are the one of the most powerful agp cards

Kunabomber fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Apr 7, 2021

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Kunabomber posted:

some people really love their retro machines, and the voodoo5s are the one of the most powerful agp cards

Voodoos and their not 32bit color and glide make them pretty unique too.

Its something interesting and not many were made so its catnip for collectors.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


Kunabomber posted:

some people really love their retro machines, and the voodoo5s are the one of the most powerful agp cards

Most powerful glide card, and retro appeal. But not even close to being the most powerful agp card, that, as far as I know, goes to the gainward 7800GS bliss, a 7800GT in AGP form, with 512MB. I have one, as long as my parents haven't tossed out the PC it is in

Edit: ok not quite, apparently there are 7950GTs out there, fair enough

HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Apr 7, 2021

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008

Bitcoin Rich


Paul MaudDib posted:

content cut for brevity

Bad is relative and they are relatively bad.
The 6800 hashrate is about equal to a 3070, not better by any real margin nor is it the only metric that people look at. You might be looking at unconfirmed or old data if you are seeing a parity. RDNA2 has a bad ROI at MSRP and its just ok at scalper prices. For gaming its underpriced compared to nvidia when buying from scalpers.

Any large scale operations arent paying ebay prices for their nvidia cards, they are putting in wholesale orders for pallets. The same kind of order would be worse on amd and nvidia has kept up on supply so they have not been pushed towards AMD yet.

If you are going to pay a scalper, look for a 6800 or 6800xt. They have a poo poo ROI so miners dont want them. That means the markup is less than an nvidia card with comparable gaming performance.

Really though dont buy from scalpers at all if you can help it. A private sale for a used card is almost always going to be superior

Fauxtool fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Apr 7, 2021

Kunabomber
Oct 1, 2002



Pillbug

HalloKitty posted:

Most powerful glide card, and retro appeal. But not even close to being the most powerful agp card, that, as far as I know, goes to the gainward 7800GS bliss, a 7800GT in AGP form, with 512MB. I have one, as long as my parents haven't tossed out the PC it is in

Edit: ok not quite, apparently there are 7950GTs out there, fair enough

Ah, right.

In any case, they're going for $200-$300 on ebay which is always funny as poo poo to me

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008



I imagine there's a really niche market for Gog.com to sell Voodoo cards for the authentic dosbox experience for some games.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




HalloKitty posted:

Most powerful glide card, and retro appeal. But not even close to being the most powerful agp card, that, as far as I know, goes to the gainward 7800GS bliss, a 7800GT in AGP form, with 512MB. I have one, as long as my parents haven't tossed out the PC it is in

Edit: ok not quite, apparently there are 7950GTs out there, fair enough

While probably rarest, I think the AGP version of the Radeon HD 3850 should hold that performance crown.

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

A VAST WIFE WING CONSPIRACY

HalloKitty posted:

Most powerful glide card, and retro appeal. But not even close to being the most powerful agp card, that, as far as I know, goes to the gainward 7800GS bliss, a 7800GT in AGP form, with 512MB. I have one, as long as my parents haven't tossed out the PC it is in

Edit: ok not quite, apparently there are 7950GTs out there, fair enough

The AGP Radeon 4670 was probably the fastest overall, but wasn't much quicker than the prior AGP 3850 and was conclusively the end of the era. Unless you were invested in Glide the Voodoo5 didn't have much to recommend it aside from quality antialiasing - the Geforce2 and Radeon cleaned its clock in both features and performance. From everything I ever heard Rampage would have been the bee's knees, but vaporware is vaporware.

Shipon
Nov 7, 2005


A whole lot of people buying from scalpers are gonna be surprised when their warranty is invalid because they bought it second-hand and unless you bought an EVGA card, you're boned because they're not transferrable.

The Grumbles
Jun 5, 2006

let the anger flow through your salt beef filling

Shipon posted:

A whole lot of people buying from scalpers are gonna be surprised when their warranty is invalid because they bought it second-hand and unless you bought an EVGA card, you're boned because they're not transferrable.

I mean, I think having to call in a warranty on a graphics card is fairly rare. I've certainly never had to do it.

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


The Grumbles posted:

I mean, I think having to call in a warranty on a graphics card is fairly rare. I've certainly never had to do it.

it seems really really variant - i've had nothing but great luck with GPUs (and consoles for that matter), i've spoke to people who have had to return several GPUs before they got a fully functional one. i think it's a combination of factors - i live in cold areas and like it that way, so my ambient temperature year round is much lower than someone who lives in a hot country. i'm technical enough to diagnose and correct minor technical issues while someone else might use a glitch as grounds for an RMA, and generally i don't treat my stuff poorly

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

By a whole lot you mean essentially no one, right? GPUs are the type of product that, if they aren't DOA, will almost certainly run for a decade. The only thing that will typically kill a functional GPU is extreme heat, and open-chassis miner rigs with large external fans cooling undervolted GPUs is exactly the opposite of extreme heat.

If by some miracle we do see another major GPU price crash to below MSRP, buy buy buy.

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


K8.0 posted:

By a whole lot you mean essentially no one, right? GPUs are the type of product that, if they aren't DOA, will almost certainly run for a decade.

i had this discussion with a friend recently and he thought that there might be an element of survivorship bias in that? like, if there's some minor component that's going to fail or is installed wrong or w/e it will probably do it out of the box (like you say) or within the warranty period.

evga in particular are internet famous for having impossibly high warranty standards and terrible QA - it's cheaper for them to ship 5% more lovely cards that get RMAed and bask in the positive word of mouth for their excellent returns than just making sure their poo poo works. again, never experienced it myself but that's the wisdom that gets passed on.

and yeah if eth craters every one of those 30 series mining cards will be worth buying.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



This hobby is user unfriendly enough that there are a good deal of people who stick a GPU in their system, plug the displayport cable into the motherboard header, and then get mad when the GPU doesnt work. At best, they might post something on Yahoo Answers (rip) that basically says "i plugged my card in and i think its busted???" and the top answer will say "return it". Or they upgrade GPUs and dont realize they need to plug in all of the PCIe power cables.

There was an interview not that long ago with Jacob from EVGA where he talked about the success of their B-Stock program, and he mentioned that some insane majority percentage of cards returned to retail stores are completely fine once they are tested, which go right back into the B-Stock pile.

Thats also why so many companies put huge flyers in their boxes now that say "DON'T RETURN TO STORE, CALL US FIRST". Paying a tech in a call center for 30 seconds of time to fix a problem instead of eating the full price of a retail return for something is obviously a huge net win for the manufacturer.

CoolCab posted:

evga in particular are internet famous for having impossibly high warranty standards and terrible QA - it's cheaper for them to ship 5% more lovely cards that get RMAed and bask in the positive word of mouth for their excellent returns than just making sure their poo poo works. again, never experienced it myself but that's the wisdom that gets passed on.

That is explicitly not how it works, honestly. Return rate is a huge determiner for how much a retailer will pay for stock. Every return costs the retailer money, especially in areas with actual consumer protection laws. A 5% increased return rate would be a huge deal.

Cygni fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 7, 2021

Shipon
Nov 7, 2005


K8.0 posted:

By a whole lot you mean essentially no one, right? GPUs are the type of product that, if they aren't DOA, will almost certainly run for a decade. The only thing that will typically kill a functional GPU is extreme heat, and open-chassis miner rigs with large external fans cooling undervolted GPUs is exactly the opposite of extreme heat.

If by some miracle we do see another major GPU price crash to below MSRP, buy buy buy.

I had a GTX 970 that was sitting in its box for 2 years after I replaced it with a 1080Ti simply refuse to turn on at all or do anything, when it worked perfectly fine before that. Also, the VRAM on these new cards is running hot as poo poo, I would not be surprised if their thermal limits aren't going to be as robust as before.

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


Cygni posted:


That is explicitly not how it works, honestly. Return rate is a huge determiner for how much a retailer will pay for stock. Every return costs the retailer money, especially in areas with actual consumer protection laws. A 5% increased return rate would be a huge deal.

huh, fair enough - like i say i'm only passing on the "wisdom" i found when i went looking for it when i was shopping.

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mysteryberto
Apr 25, 2006
IIAM

Evga b stock is up and dang the prices are high. If you donít want to support scalpers you can buy two generation old scratch and dent cards

https://www.evga.com/products/productlist.aspx?type=8

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