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Cleretic posted:What, you didn't notice? I'm phoneposting so I can't write anything too long, but FF has been historically pretty good for female representation, as far back as the first time they had actual characters in the party at all they've had some pretty solid first-stringer female characters. Seriously, go back, realize that even FFII had Maria and Leila. The very fact that they have a strong history of female representation is precisely why it shouldn't be a huge deal that they chose to do a story about four guys (not all white, by the way). FF X-2 was a story of all female characters, so it's not like they haven't been equal in that respect either, so calling it "going backwards" is pretty dumb.
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Apr 4, 2017 03:44
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Help Im Alive posted:The Emperor seems ok if Dissidia is anything to go by When he dies he takes over hell and in the GBA rerelease and beyond there's a bonus scenario where his good part of his soul splits off when he dies and takes over heaven also still evil. Electric Phantasm fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 03:52
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Cleretic posted:Oh, I'm not saying this seriously, I assure you. I do not maliciously think that it would be better if FFXV did not exist, even if I personally don't like that it does. I'm just saying that from my perspective it would be more enjoyable if it existed in this fantastical perpetual state of 'almost released' where full opinions and argumets can be had about it but that barrier of 'you have to play the game' cannot exist. I'm not one of the people who thinks you need to play a game to have an opinion on it, but saying you don't want to be cynical and then having an insanely cynical post while trying to be derisive towards people who don't care about the game a majority male cast seems pretty loving counter productive and also stupid. So I don't think you need to play the game to have an opinion on it, hell I haven't even finished it, but your perspective and opinion are pretty drat annoying and this is in a thread where both I and Gologle exist.
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Apr 4, 2017 06:21
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Cleretic posted:What, you didn't notice? I'm phoneposting so I can't write anything too long, but FF has been historically pretty good for female representation, as far back as the first time they had actual characters in the party at all they've had some pretty solid first-stringer female characters. Seriously, go back, realize that even FFII had Maria and Leila. ITT we ignore how useless Rosa from FFIV was, how much of a literal plot device with tits Aeris from FFVII was, how senpai-won't-notice-me Quistis was from FFVIII, and oh let's not forget the token I'm-a-princess-ON-A-MISSHUN Dagger from FFXI was. I mean jesus christ I don't even know where to start with you.
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Apr 4, 2017 06:56
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brokenknee posted:ITT we ignore how useless Rosa from FFIV was, how much of a literal plot device with tits Aeris from FFVII was, how senpai-won't-notice-me Quistis was from FFVIII, and oh let's not forget the token I'm-a-princess-ON-A-MISSHUN Dagger from FFXI was. >complains about garnet >doesnt complain about rinoa 
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Apr 4, 2017 07:01
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The White Dragon posted:>complains about garnet I was limiting myself to one useless woman per installment, but yes Rinoa is every bit as bad. In fact let's just say "every woman from VIII".
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Apr 4, 2017 07:02
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brokenknee posted:I was limiting myself to one useless woman per installment, but yes Rinoa is every bit as bad. And can I counter that with 'every girl from V'? I haven't played 8 and 9, but you're being as disingenuous as you're saying I am here. We've got Rydia, the majority of V's party, Celes (Terra's a bit 'eh'), Tifa (and Aerith too come to think of it, you're selling her kinda short), the girls from X, Ashe, at least Lightning from XIII although I'm not accounting for quality here...
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Apr 4, 2017 07:08
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remember, if you make a list, rather then just listing one or two examples, list every instance of whatever it's about ever, or useless pedants will come out of the woodwork and finish it for you anyway
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Apr 4, 2017 07:13
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brokenknee posted:I was limiting myself to one useless woman per installment, but yes Rinoa is every bit as bad. What have you got against trains, huh
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Apr 4, 2017 07:12
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Doomtrain is the best woman in FFVIII
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Apr 4, 2017 07:16
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brokenknee posted:how much of a literal plot device with tits Aeris from FFVII was ITT we repeat poo poo that isn't actually true apparently.
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Apr 4, 2017 07:17
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Cleretic posted:And can I counter that with 'every girl from V'? While I freely acknowledge the inherent "good-ness" of some of those people on your list (Celes, Rydia, Terra, specifically), the point that I was trying to bring up was that your statement about them being historically good for female character representation was a bit (read: a lot) tainted by just how trope-y and full of bullshit other entries into the race were. And that's with me pretending that Minfilia literally does not even exist for this purposes of this argument because jfc she ruins it for everyone else. edit: Tryhard mode now on. We'll go through the ones I put specifically on blast in my initial post. Rosa - Love interest of the main character (neutral) who, in the interest of making sure he stays safe and alright (good), goes out into a known desert without proper protection/equipment (bad) (evidence: she contracts desert fever. Did Cecil catch desert fever? And he had Rydia to take care of as well?), and as a result must be rescued by the main character. Later, she serves as bait for the bad guy by being captured (BADBADBAD) and held in some super floaty fortress with a death trap (...) while the bad guys talk about their plans infront of her (not bad of her in of itself, but contributes to the trope). Aeris - Flower salesgirl who has an unwavering, almost saccharine level of optimism (bad) that despite how hosed up the world has gotten she can still make things alright (..I'm strangely okay with this, despite disliking the optimism levels from earlier) with her magical macguffyn materia (aaand back to being bad). Not afraid to get knee deep in the prostitution rings of Midgar (I can't wait to see how she looks in FF7R with that dress and those pumps), yet ultimately her end goal in the writing is to be a catalyst for "Sephiroth is an irredeemable rear end in a top hat because he killed my waifu", which, again, while not bad in of the character, is loving godawful terrible for the writing and contributes to the trope levels. Quistis - Hard-lined no-nonsense instructor who pulls no punches and takes no prisoners to the point of it being a trope in of itself. Except for some reason she still bothers to waste time on Squall who is such an edgelord introvert he might as well be playing his mixtape of Linkin Park and Slipknot on some Shinji Ikari business. Dagger - Admittedly, the last time I played FFXI I still had pimples and Animaniacs were pretty cool and new, so my memory of the game is fuzzy at best. I just recall the scene where she swipes one of Zidane's daggers, and everyone assumes she's going to off herself. Except instead she's using it to cut her hair because dramatic transformation sequence with seinen/josei tendencies??? brokenknee fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 07:43
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brokenknee posted:While I freely acknowledge the inherent "good-ness" of some of those people on your list (Celes, Rydia, Terra, specifically), the point that I was trying to bring up was that your statement about them being historically good for female character representation was a bit (read: a lot) tainted by just how trope-y and full of bullshit other entries into the race were. How 'trope-y'.' Really. Edit: Your arguments are reductive and poorly phrase and you don't actually appear to have anything to say beyond assuming that everyone agrees with you on what is bad or good, especially when your own opinions are hilariously hypocritical or seem absurdly reductive. You get super angry when anyone disagrees with you and act as if everyone should OBVIOUSLY agree with your poorly argued thoughts which you refuse to articulate in any fashion. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 07:45
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Hold on a sec, let me just pull up my excel spreadsheet of Final Fantasy females and their usefulness to me.
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Apr 4, 2017 07:46
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Fister Roboto posted:Hold on a sec, let me just pull up my excel spreadsheet of Final Fantasy females and their usefulness to me. important question does this spreadsheet include Quina
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Apr 4, 2017 07:47
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Fister Roboto posted:Hold on a sec, let me just pull up my excel spreadsheet of Final Fantasy females and their usefulness to me. Rydia? Good Yuffie? Very Good Rikku? Also good Lightning? *in Borat voice* VERY NICE
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Apr 4, 2017 07:48
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Cleretic posted:What, you didn't notice? I'm phoneposting so I can't write anything too long, but FF has been historically pretty good for female representation, as far back as the first time they had actual characters in the party at all they've had some pretty solid first-stringer female characters. Seriously, go back, realize that even FFII had Maria and Leila. Man you've been dying to turn the conversation back to this after the last time you got booed out because you didn't know what you were talking about, haven't you?
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Apr 4, 2017 07:49
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brokenknee posted:ITT we ignore how useless Rosa from FFIV was, how much of a literal plot device with tits Aeris from FFVII was, how senpai-won't-notice-me Quistis was from FFVIII, and oh let's not forget the token I'm-a-princess-ON-A-MISSHUN Dagger from FFXI was. im the veiled misogyny masquerading as enlightened feminism in this poster's posts
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Apr 4, 2017 07:52
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The FFXIII devs really wanted Jihl Nabaat to be a boss fight so much they though people were gonna pay money to fight her in XIII-2.
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Apr 4, 2017 07:53
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[extremely woke voice] plot device WITH TITS
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Apr 4, 2017 07:53
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Yuna was pretty cool. especially in X-2. That was good character development. Shame about Rikku but oh well.
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Apr 4, 2017 08:01
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Yeah, it's a shame Rikku got to be fun and snarky and play off Yuna and Paine well.
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Apr 4, 2017 08:03
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brokenknee posted:And that's with me pretending that Minfilia literally does not even exist for this purposes of this argument because jfc she ruins it for everyone else. And I'd counter that with Y'shtola, really. Both the best and worst Scions are ladies (unless Alphinaud's a Scion). My criteria for this is female first-stringer party members, that are proactive and/or useful in ways that let them actually Do poo poo, considered in the context of their game. So I won't dock points for being 'tropey' for the same reason I still count Maria despite basically the only character trait in II's party being Guy speaking beaver, because the men fail the same test in the same ways. It's not fair to fail Aerith for being 'tropey' because frankly most of the guys fail the same test (and way harder, I'd say).
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Apr 4, 2017 08:14
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Seriouspost: Final Fantasy, as a franchise, generally has had fairly heavy female representation. Especially in the PS1 era the games put a serious amount of emphasis on the female leads. You can argue how good or bad those characters were but they were a significant and important part of the game. Aerith and Tifa, Rinoa, Garnet, Yuna and Ashe were all incredibly significant parts of their own games and Lightning was obviously the protagonist of hers. Even if they were not the main playable protagonist they were serious driving factors in the storylines and in large part the ones the game revolve around. There are very few post-NES FF games where the female lead isn't a major driver of the plot in some fashion or another. How successful or developed those characters are is up for debate but considering nobody can even agree on what the worst FF game is, you're going to get plenty of arguments over character and writing quality and so-on and it's not really meaningful except in the most reductive terms. If you are discussing the characters, plots and their impact on the story then in the bulk of those stories you're not going to be able to pull any of those characters out. Lunafreya is a weak character not because your party in FFXV is all dudes but because she's barely relevant to the overall story in presentation or screentime. Lunafreya could have never joined the party and still been a strong part of the story but she isn't. You can blame budget cuts, a heavy focus on broship, or whatever else you want but that is the core difference between FFXV and the last eight or so games in the series. This doesn't make FFXV bad or wrong or sexist or whatever. It is however something different about FFXV and it's understandable if someone is disappointed about it for a franchise which usually put such a heavy emphasis on that element of the story. (I also think it's fair to say that this isn't exclusive to Lunafreya though she probably gets hit worst by it. Everyone in FFXV gets a cliff notes summary of their plots. Ignis gets blinded offscreen, Prompto just sort of awkwardly reveals his dark backstory and everyone shrugs and moves on, major villains die entirely offscreen/entirely offscreen until a patch, half the cast vanishes entirely off the face of the Earth, and more tragedy and focus is given to the death of a random old man than the protagonist's father. Trying to read anything in FFXV needs a giant glowing * that goes "and almost all of this is because the game is blatantly unfinished.)
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Apr 4, 2017 08:18
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Zerilan posted:If I was going to grab one of the FF mobile games as a time waster, which would probably be the better choice between Brave Exivus or Record Keeper? FFRK is more newbie friendly and the combat is much more basic. FFBE is better gameplay but the gacha rates are pretty savage. If you play FFRK you should probably consider doing some rerolls due to the anniversary dungeon that gives out 50 mythril upon completion, and no you can't fail it (I think?) even as a newbie. Run dungeon, do an 11 pull, reroll if the pull is garbage. The GIG posted:please don't reroll over and over in games like that. It never matters past the first hour and its never hard enough to warrant it. Not to mention PAD and stuff like that is easy to make work in your favor no matter what you get. One of PAD's best leaders (Myr) is farmable too, though you'd need a lot of carry help to get the mats to evolve her as a newbie and her leaderskill is kinda worthless until then. Captain Baal posted:I voice opinions without playing games but they're usually outrageous to the point of self parody I read your post and saw your colorful AV and thought it was Hein for a split second.
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Apr 4, 2017 08:47
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ImpAtom is 100% right. For what it's worth, I personally think Cleretic is wholly wrong about FF15 except about the lady thing. It bugged me too and I had the gall to actually buy and play the game. It bugged plenty of my friends. It put some off so much they wrote it off entirely. However, I understand what SE was going for and if they had landed the "road trip" thing better and generally got the characterizations down, I probably could have accepted it. But they didn't, so to me, it's the mainline Final Fantasy that did something pretty new with its cast and just didn't pull it off.
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Apr 4, 2017 08:57
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Nihilarian posted:The entire core party is asian males Actually all the main characters were anime, which is an ethnicity in itself
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Apr 4, 2017 09:13
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Cleretic posted:And I'd counter that with Y'shtola, really. Both the best and worst Scions are ladies (unless Alphinaud's a Scion). Curses. Logic has prevailed against my attempt to troll Minfilia into nonexistance again. Also Alphinaud wishes he was female. As for the guys failing for being tropes, it brings up an interesting point that I feel extends beyond just the Final Fantasy franchise. How many times do we let male characters with trope murder, more or less, when we then turn around and in same breath/paragraph deride a female character because they seem too one-dimensional. It seems like the only time we really turn on the male characters is when there is a distinctive lack of female characters (see FFXV and the opinions of this thread for further reading) to either hold up on a pedastal or condemn to the firey pits of hell, unless the character is so goddamn egregious that the consumer base overlooks everything else and points going "wtf is this poo poo". Also whoever said that Doomtrain was the best girl of FFVIII i love you
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Apr 4, 2017 09:42
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brokenknee posted:As for the guys failing for being tropes, it brings up an interesting point that I feel extends beyond just the Final Fantasy franchise. How many times do we let male characters with trope murder, more or less, when we then turn around and in same breath/paragraph deride a female character because they seem too one-dimensional. It seems like the only time we really turn on the male characters is when there is a distinctive lack of female characters (see FFXV and the opinions of this thread for further reading) to either hold up on a pedastal or condemn to the firey pits of hell, unless the character is so goddamn egregious that the consumer base overlooks everything else and points going "wtf is this poo poo". Guy talks to beavers.
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Apr 4, 2017 10:09
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Mega64 posted:Guy speak beaver.
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Apr 4, 2017 10:12
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Hey fellas, I only want to do this once...I don't think I have, yet? Goodness, maybe I have. In which case I'm sorry for being annoying. Anyway, I certainly haven't posted about this since we finished it. Oh, we (Girlfriend and I) recently finished our first season of adapting old video games into something like a serialized radio drama. The first season is about Final Fantasy IV. It's twelve episodes long, each one somewhere between 45 minutes to an hour. In a month we're starting on Fallout, and then (probably) Skies of Arcadia and Shadowrun (SNES). I guess you could kind of interpret our project as an audio-only let's play. A Let's Listen, maybe. Uh, well, anyway. The website is http://thespoonybardpodcast.com but the site is a loving wreck because I sure don't know what I'm doing so the RSS feed would probably be the most accessible. It's here: http://thespoonybardpodcast.libsyn.com/podcast  Look, it's the podcast art I made for all twelve episodes. I don't want to be annoying, spamming my poo poo all over the place, but it's not like I'm making any money off this. In fact, this goofy project is taking a chunk out of my weird pigeon high schooler visual novel budget. But it's the kind of project where...well, we created it because it didn't exist yet because I thought it would be a really neat thing to exist. Maybe you think so also? If you do happen to listen to it, of course I encourage you to start from the first episode since this is a serialized podcast, but be prepared for some pretty awkward podcasting. Girlfriend and I have never done this before, and I did all the editing and I've never done that before, and she played this game on her legitimate copy on her PS1 but because the sound effects and poo poo had to be ripped I had to use an emulator, but there were a lot more than just textual differences between her version and my version (Final Fantasy II, as released in America for the SNES) and in fact the game plays very, very differently...the point is, it took loving forever and was a learning process but we did it!
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Apr 4, 2017 12:09
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brokenknee posted:How many times do we let male characters with trope murder, more or less ...The gently caress does that even mean?
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Apr 4, 2017 12:36
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Can't we just agree that for this specific kind of story it wouldn't have worked as well with female party members, but that this kind of story also isn't for everyone and thus not buying it for that reason is acceptable? It's not like square has announced they'll only have men from now on
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Apr 4, 2017 12:54
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Dragonatrix posted:...The gently caress does that even mean? every time you kill an imp with cecil, it's murder
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Apr 4, 2017 12:54
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brokenknee posted:Curses. Logic has prevailed against my attempt to troll Minfilia into nonexistance again. Also Alphinaud wishes he was female. I was saying that if Alphinaud counts as a Scion he's the worst one by far, thus breaking the assessment that both the best and worst Scions are women. Minfilia might be annoying and useless, but Alphinaud is annoying and actively damaging to his allies, which puts him as way worse. Dragonatrix posted:...The gently caress does that even mean? What he's basically saying is that we're way more accepting of FF's male characters being total cliches than we are the female ones, and I'd say that same thing applies more broadly that we're far happier calling out any flaws in the female characters more than we are the male ones. I would say that of VII's cast it's Barrett and Vincent that are the most cliche, but people are far happier to swing at Aerith for it. And while these days I don't see a lot of hate at all thrown FFX's way, in retrospect I can think of an awful lot of complaints I heard about Rikku that were better leveled at Wakka. EDIT: Or, better example, that thing I said at the start of this post. Any problem you have with Minfilia, Alphinaud is MUCH worse, so why does she get the brunt of people's hatred? Cleretic fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 12:56
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Cleretic posted:I would say that of VII's cast it's Barrett and Vincent that are the most cliche  Cleretic posted:EDIT: Or, better example, that thing I said at the start of this post. Any problem you have with Minfilia, Alphinaud is MUCH worse, so why does she get the brunt of people's hatred? It's because she's written to be far more annoying gameplay wise because 99% of the "please make the pointless journey back to our hangout spot so we can all talk about things instead of using our little magic cellphone earrings" come from her hth I've honestly never heard anybody in the FFXIV thread go out of their way to poo poo on Minfilia so I'm not sure where you're coming from with this, people clown on Alphinaud all the time for being terrible Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 13:03
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To be fair, Vincent's a poo poo character and you're better off leaving his rear end to rot in the mansion. That was probably the one good thing Hojo did.
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Apr 4, 2017 13:08
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Mega64 posted:To be fair, Vincent's a poo poo character and you're better off leaving his rear end to rot in the mansion. Hold on Vincent was written in the early 90s. It couldn't have been a cliche at the time.
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Apr 4, 2017 13:13
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You're crazy if you think people aren't throwing shade at my boy Alphinaud at every chance they get
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Apr 4, 2017 13:17
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Kelp Me! posted:It's because she's written to be far more annoying gameplay wise because 99% of the "please make the pointless journey back to our hangout spot so we can all talk about things instead of using our little magic cellphone earrings" come from her hth I've heard it a lot from people outside of SA. In fact, one of my friends responded to learning I was starting out in FFXIV by specifically asking me to tell her when I got to Minfilia, because she really wanted to experience the hatred from the perspective of somebody new. I'll grant that Minfilia is worse than Alph right out the gate just by having more screentime, but as time goes on and he gets more spotlight he gets far worse. When you get to the post-release patch content especially, he starts being the source of a lot of those back-to-base callbacks, gets diplomatic screentime that only serves to show that he's loving awful at it, and founds an organization that's more trouble than it's worth by more magnitudes than I can count.
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Apr 4, 2017 13:24
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