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Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


So I want to ask, in my quest to play the Final Fantasy games I missed growing up (except 4 and 8, gently caress 4 and 8), what's the best modern way to buy and play Tactics? Most every mainline Final Fantasy is on Steam which works great for me, but not Tactics; to my knowledge the only modern-platform release is on iOS, and I don't have an Apple device.

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Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Randallteal posted:

That would be great. It seemed like that might happen for a while. I kept hoping they would announce DS remakes of 5 and 6 after 4, but that never happened and we ended up getting the IOS revamps instead.

For what it's worth, soon after the VII remake was announced the same complaint was voiced about why they weren't doing that for V and VI first, by Nomura. V is beloved in Japan, and within Square-Enix's development team, so it's a fair question.

My assumption has always been that they were doing that, but the project mutated into Bravely Default. I'm okay with that if it's the case.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Tae posted:

Bravely Default was by a different company, only published by Square.

I just checked, it was apparently made in collaboration with Square, and shared some of the development team of the FFIII/IV DS remakes (most obviously Akihiko Yoshida). Not all the developers, granted; the DS remakes were done by Matrix Studio, but judging by the fact they're also credited for the V and VI smartphone ports that talent probably isn't with them, at least not anymore.

I don't have any concrete proof, but I do still think it's likely that Default started as an FFV remake. There's just enough evidence in the connections to the III and IV remakes and what it takes from V in both gameplay and story ways that it makes sense it started life that way, although it might've changed from that before it even left planning.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Mega64 posted:

I will be forever saddened the world was robbed of Iscar Matthias.
Thanks for that, I had to look that up and am extremely happy I did.

When I was playing FFVII for the first time earlier this year, I at some point early on got the idea that it reads perfectly and hilariously as a really bad tabletop campaign where almost every player is in some way terrible. My take on Cait Sith was 'the DM's little brother who's taking the fact he has a captive audience and having too much fun with it', and credit to that guy, that interpretation holds 100% if you're replacing him with Iscar Matthias.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


X is alright on that, and you might enjoy it, but it wouldn't be one I'd recommend.

I'd suggest the SNES ones, 4 through to 6. They're far more DnD than anime, and even the most story-heavy of them are pretty cutscene-light.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


bloodychill posted:

Play 9, it's great. 10 is also good but divisive and cut-scene heavy and it was Square's first attempt at RPG voice-acting and it shows so I don't know if you'd like it. 4, 5, and 6 are great if you can deal with SNES graphics and they're each pretty different from each other and got plenty of gameplay.

Just for a bit more detail on the SNES part, because I honestly think they're the place to look in the series for all reasons:

IV is the most story-heavy of the SNES games, and as far as game structure goes it's probably the most rigid in the series (you don't get any choice in who you play as or how you build your characters), but it's got a lot of variance and meat to it. IV's set party lets them make some really nuanced bosses built specifically to challenge the party it gives you more than any other game in the series.

V is probably the most story-light game in the series that isn't FFI or FFIII (which didn't even have protagonists), and it's got a really hefty and nuanced job system that gives you a lot of freedom in party construction and combo-building. It's arguably the hardest mainline Final Fantasy game, but not really for any bullshit reasons; it just knows how powerful you can become, and challenges that. I'm a bit biased, though, V is my favorite Final Fantasy and I don't know any game that quite manages to challenge the player as well as FFV does.

And if you know VII, VI will feel very familiar. They have very similar gameplay mechanics, structure, even the stories are pretty alike. It's got some of the more active and unique party members of the series which can be very interesting, but you're also very capable of just going 'gently caress that' and giving the biggest swords to the muscliest men and you'll be fine.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.



So does XIV have like, a trial or something? I'd love to give it a shot since I've heard and seen a ton of good things about it, but it's got quite a price point to get into. And from an MMO like this, it's one that's only gonna rise.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Tae posted:

I mean there's way too many games right now, I only started ff14 during like late July when there was nothing else going on. I'm probably not going to play it too much when winter rolls around, since apparently February is the next blockbluster month for some reason.

That's actually the role Shin Megami Tensei Online had for me way back when that was a thing. I liked it and I'm sad it's gone now, but it got most of its play in that end-of-year chunk when I didn't have any big games to play and just wanted to keep myself busy for a while.

I'm fine with XIV being that.

EDIT: So what's the gist of what Heavensward would offer me? I could either just get the base game for peanuts or pay a bit more for The Complete Experience (as an aside: that loving name when they're making a second expansion), I'm not sure which to do given all I really know about it is that there's an Alexander Voltron raid. And the Cloud of Darkness from III is n the game somewhere, but I'm not sure if that's basegame or Heavensward.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Oct 15, 2016

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Thanks, that's a pretty solid explanation for me to roll with. I like the sound of the Machinist job because I'm a fan of being the one techie in a room full of mages (plus judging by the Machinist skillset in Record Keeper it looks like it's a good moveset for me), but I'm pretty sure I'll need to work up to it anyway.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


And I mean, I'm pretty sure that jumping through the air sparkling and having a shitload of fun is probably a gamebreaking three-ability combo in FFV that one-shots Twintania or something.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Panic! at Nabisco posted:

I'm having trouble thinking of female party members in a FF game who aren't super young. FFVI has a pretty good cast of dudes in their mid-late 20s or older, but the ladies are teenagers and a preteen.

The oldest I can think of is a tie between Aerith and Lulu at 22, unless you count FFIV:TAY in which Rosa is a mom.

e: In looking up all these ages I was reminded that Ashe's middle name is B'nargin which is hilarious

Fran's not human, so that's cheating.

I'm trying to look for who else might be of reasonable ages in Final Fantasy casts, and everyone I look at is in their early twenties. Lightning is 21 in XIII (I don't know the character so I dunno if she should be different), Faris and Agrias are both 20 (surprising to me, but sounds right enough), I can't find ages for Maria and Leila from II...

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Fingers McLongDong posted:

Just finished the Tower of Babil in ff4, I forgot how many characters die in this game. The writing and story certainly don't linger on any given death though. Pretty annoying that the equipment on a character leaves when they leave the party.

When I started trying to put together gimmick Record Keeper lineups based on character themes, I had to skip 'Team Dead Party Member' because it was too easy. You could make an entire team of people who died in FFIV, and it's not even the only game you can do that with.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


wizard on a water slide posted:

The newer versions of FF2 literally do that in the game; you take control of all the dead guys for their own afterlife bonus dungeon thing.

That idea owns for FFRK tho. You could do something like Galuf, Aeris, Tellah, Leo, and maybe Tidus if you wanted to be cheeky for the Dead Guy All Stars.

Soul of Rebirth is awesome, yeah. Dawn of Souls was actually my first ever FF game, so I'm pretty familiar with it. Hell, I beat FFI Omega and Shinryu as my first ever superbosses before even playing any other FF games.

And I had a lot of fun with trying to compose gimmick teams for RK, especially ones that were halfway viable. Team Dead Party Member was too easy, but Team Rotting Corpse (people who died before the game started) was great fun. I remember Team 'Just Here To Get Paid' had a great selection of physical characters but nearly no mages, Team Dead Girlfriend had to be expanded into Team Dead Girlfriend Or Boyfriend to get a healer, Team Under Tens is actually a totally viable mage team, and Team Amnesia handles pretty well.

The hardest team to work out was Team Traitor, because it really becomes an issue of definitions.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


I believe Basch was originally planned to be the protagonist of XII, but they thought they wouldn't really be able to sell a grizzled war-weary soldier as a protagonist*, so they invented Vaan to be the player avatar. It's pretty obvious when you recall that XII's storyline is basically just Star Wars, and Vaan is all the set-dressing stuff about Luke Skywalker while Basch is the stuff about him people actually care about. Also, that Vaan doesn't do poo poo once the actual plot gets rolling.

*I'm sorry, but it's really late, so I can't put together a coy way to just point to Metal Gear here.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Gologle posted:

I hate how they say Celes like "celestial" instead of Celes like "Celesbian". That said, her voice is pretty spot on, so good for them. It seems modern dubs are actually good now.

I checked out the Faris boss fight because I am horribly biased, and the casting there is pretty solid too.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Celes is such a weird name to me, entirely because it sounds so mundane. I legitimately thought, until looking it up literally right now, that it was just a normal but uncommon name that I happen to only know from Final Fantasy.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Mordiceius posted:

Yeah, I pronounced Celes as Cell-eez.

Playing older games with my wife has been fun in that I get to learn how she pronounces these names. And I get to see them again myself and realize that 14 year old me probably got a lot of them wrong.

From FF8, I always pronounced Edea as "E-da" whereas she pronounced it as the much better "Eh-day-a"

If Bravely Default can be trusted on that one, it's 'Ee-dee-a'. And honestly, I don't want to be in a situation where I can't trust Bravely Default.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


The FFI part of Dawn of Souls had some pieces of equipment that cast spells when used (I don't know if they were in the base game, but I know some really good ones for spells like Flare were from the bonus dungeons). They weren't as strong as actually casting spells, but they were free, so they were good for the longer bonus dungeons.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Baba Yaga Fanboy posted:

Sweet juicy Jesus yes. Tama's VA is great, but that verbal tic of hers drives me up the goddamn wall.

On a more positive note, the Sephiroth summon attack is one of the most glorious spectacles I've ever been witness to.

I just looked at a video of all of them. I'd put it second to Bartz's being getting the enemy caught in the crossfire of an entirely different fight, but it's still pretty great.

And as an aside to those, wow, Refia from the IIImake and Shelke from Dirge of Cerberus? They were getting clever.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


I was, for most of my first run of FFVII earlier this year, getting the idea that present-day Sephiroth barely existed 'as' Sephiroth. The real one got hilariously killed by Cloud in the Nibelheim reactor and that was the end of it, the one you're spending most of the game fighting is basically just an approximation built from people's memories of some basass named Sephiroth acting as a face and hands for the otherwise kinda helpless Jenova--basically, what Sephiroth claimed Cloud to be. I don't care that the expanded universe probably retconned it, it makes sense to me, and I do like how much of all that is vague enough to let you figure some of it out like that.

...actually, can people help out on that one, is Cloud as we played him really basically just a homonculus basing itself off someone Tifa remembered, or is he actually legit? They never really answered that one conclusively in the game, far as I could tell they just kinda dropped it before coming to a conclusion either way.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Terper posted:

Yeah the hype in the thread was great and Stand By Me was awesome

Squeenix are toying with me with that, I was all ready to not care about XV on the metric of it basically not being a Final Fantasy game and me not liking what it is instead. But then they whip out Florence and the Machine and welp, now I HAVE to be interested.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


FactsAreUseless posted:

The translation was a mess and we were all 8.

That's not true, I'm 24 and misinterpreted it this year! It's a mess for all ages!

I still stand by my secondary reading of the whole thing, as a really lovely tabletop campaign. You just start off by seeing Barrett as being that kind of Paladin player that declares he's Lawful Good and then refuses to play like it, and everything else just falls into place.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


kirbysuperstar posted:

The Final Fantasy games are super anime, congrats on liking anime.

Eh, that really depends on which game. The first five are way more 'low-rent D&D campaign' than 'anime'.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Captain Baal posted:

Nah for real though, VI is alright, but I don't care a lot for its second half.

Out of all the Square RPGs at the time that used that structure, I'd say FFVI was probably the worst at it. It throws a lot at you, not all of it's easy to figure out at all, rewards and difficulty are wildly disparate, and the final dungeon is so easy you honestly might actually be doing Kefka a disservice by actually using the World of Ruin to prepare for him.

For what it's worth, the order of quality for games handling that structure, starting from the worst, goes FFVI > FFVII > FFV > Chrono Trigger.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


mandatory lesbian posted:

i'm only gonna play the first part cuase thats the only part i liked

i want a 45 minute cutscene of cloud trying his best to pretend to be a girl backstage before meeting don corneo

The wall market was actually a horribly boring, obtuse, frustrating and offensive diversion, sorry to tell you. I can recommend good parts of that game to be your favorite part instead, if it helps.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Artix posted:

I mean, you could sell 13-2 on that exact same premise and that game has enough issues for the entire 13 trilogy on its own.

The monster-taming in XIII-2 is really the only reason the entire game isn't just lovely Chrono Trigger.

I didn't play any of the XIII games, but I watched Kung-Fu Jesus' LP of XIII-2, and basically the most fun part of it was when they got new good monsters to play with and name. The entire game went from a 6 to a 7 when they could name a giant robot death-machine Gank.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Wow, I think this is the first Final Fantasy crossover game where Clash on the Big Bridge isn't the clear standout of the soundtrack. That Decisive Battle version, hot drat.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.



FFXIV is a weird game for me to come at, because with crossover, celebration or other reference-heavy games there's always something I feel they're missing that I'd like to see from them. I thought Sonic Generations needed a bit more Sonic Advance love, I think Record Keeper needs to put more effort into making some less-popular realms and characters more viable to use, stuff like that.

But with XIV I'm just... stuck, because they're already doing such a good job I don't think there's anything I'd want that they haven't added. I could say that I'd really like to see them toss in Minwu, but I'm not confident he isn't already in there somewhere!

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


ApplesandOranges posted:

Which is still great since you either get some stuff to make your favourite character stronger, and/or get a huge hit of nostalgia to boot.

Also none of the named characters are really bad, some are worse than others, but all are usable, unlike BE where characters like Cyan and Penelo are pretty much doomed.

I feel like certain realms and characters get a bit shafted once you're far enough into the game to have things to pick from; the NES games for example get very few events, meaning characters from them can lag behind in some areas. I use Luneth from III in my A-Team for example (mostly due to poor gacha luck making him my only relic-bearing spellblader), and he's still lackluster because it's taking them so long to give him his record sphere.

Then there's the sad outlier of Ricard...

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


I don't even have the right console to play WoFF, and I want to see more of it. It's just such a cute game, and they're clearly putting so much heart into making it a good proper celebration. (EDIT: The fact they gave my favorite FF character, Faris, a fairly nice role helps.)

I'm surprised, given the story having the encroaching empire with a single external town and a resistance force, that the original has absolutely zero FFII representation. It's not like they seem to have a bar of obscurity II falls below, they have a character from loving Crystal Chronicles in there.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Black Mage Knight posted:

FF14 is another game with zero representation. Really the selection at times is kinda weird, what with FF4 only having Rydia inspite of it generally being one of the more nostalgia heavy games in the franchise. But yeah, FF2 not having any characters does feel a little weird, because I feel that someone like Firion could work pretty well with a lot of other cast members, similar to Dissidia.

Thinking about it, I bet you could have a really neat twofer on both II and IV by including a Mysidia based on both. Minwu's loving rad and probably the most memorable figure from II after Firion and the Emperor (who get the Dissidia bump), and there's plenty of magic poo poo in IV to pull from even if we aren't willing to have Palom and Porom be in before a bunch of others.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


VI is super easy as far as FF games go.

Generally focus-fire works best, but there's times you won't want to.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


I think NES FFI is interesting because it's probably the most utterly brokeass game that was still successful outside of first-generation Pokemon. It's easily still playable and enjoyable, but it's got half a dozen spells that literally don't do anything and other silliness like that.

The GBA version is a genuinely good game, though.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.



I just want to say I'm genuinely surprised this is new. I forgot that Sephiroth wasn't in Dissidia Arcade, especially since they've been adding totally new characters before him.

Also, let's just agree here and now, Sephiroth's stupid improbable sword just could not hold in a clash with Cloud's stupid improbable sword in the way pictured in that video, it is far too light and thin.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Grawl posted:

One thing that really helps is to set the battle speed to low for bosses that cast doom. The turns don't go slower, but the doom counter does. It made some bosses (like Odin early on) way easier.

The only boss I couldn't beat was the final boss. At that point I just cheated, because I wanted to get it over with. I didn't feel like grinding just to get to the ending of the game.

That said, I liked the part where the game become more than a hallway simulator and I was able to just explore the world and do some side-quests.

Isn't the final boss weak to instant death?

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


I feel like at this point I need to buy XIII just to have my own informed opinion on it. ...And probably XIII-3, because what little I've seen of it seems to be 'Things Cleretic Likes: The Game' only with Lightning as a protagonist instead of someone like Faris (and even then...).

But at the same time I'm playing FFXIV, and I still havent' even started Tales of Symphonia. Why do I have to be a fan of the most ridiculously long-form game genres?

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Tales of Symphonia is pretty skippable if you've played any of the good Tales games that came out after. It's kind of a step backwards in every way.

I haven't, all I really know it as is that Gamecube JRPG everyone seemed to like that I could never find at the time.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


NikkolasKing posted:

You should play XIII-2 because it's the best one.

I'm not falling for this one, I watched a full LP of XIII-2, I know it's just Dumb Chrono Trigger!

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


I'd also say that FFV is a pretty hard game, it's just a really self-aware hard. FFV knows that it's got a huge power scale, and that you can turn basically any tool in your arsenal into a death machine if you know how to use it properly. And so it compensates by really not pulling its punches and being perfectly willing to just gently caress you right the hell up if you don't do the same to it first.

It doesn't feel that difficult to us now, because the key to doing well at FFV is knowledge; we know Chemist is broken, we know Zeninage can gently caress up the otherwise pretty tough crystals boss, we know Spellblade, Dual Wield and Rapid Fire work together obscenely well. But if you don't have that knowledge you'll get your face pushed in quite readily by its endgame.

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Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Thinking about it I'd probably be way more interested and engaged in FFXV if it didn't even have the Final Fantasy name and was just entirely its own thing.

I know that's weird to say about a Final Fantasy game of all things, but the thing I've always liked about the whole FF series is that they're really creative and imaginative both in story and gameplay while having a really consistent common core of both story elements and mechanics. They all do completely different things with that core and take it in completely different directions, but they're still undeniably in the same series as far as both gameplay and presentation.

Nothing I've really seen of FFXV makes me feel like it's got that same core. It doesn't even feel like the same genre, it feels more like a weird open-world action game with RPG elements to keep it rolling. It looks like it's probably good at whatever it's doing, and if it was delivering that on its own terms I might like it. But it's called 'Final Fantasy', and it just doesn't feel like it suits that name.

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