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NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





That whole "you just love it the most because it was your first" thing reminds me of my early days on the internet. Back in 2003 all I could find was VIi fanboys and IX haters. VII was my first FF but then i played IX and thought it was much better. The bitter fourteen-year-old me concluded that VII was poo poo and all its fans were just dumb.

Luckily I grew out of this. VII is a fine game and people are entitled to like whatever they wish.

Anyway, IX is still my favorite to this day. However FFXII gives it a lot of competition. An FFIX with FFXII's battle system would be perfection since it's only IX's battle system that I hate.

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NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Pesky Splinter posted:

I tend to think of Shuyin's design as an apology for Tidus'
It's the same basic design, but without looking quite as ridiculous.
Why wasn't it in Dissidia

I also wanted the Shuyin outfit as an alt for Tidus.

Then when I heard Yuna would be in the sequel I hoped for X-2 Yuna. more disappointment.

As for Nomura's designs, Seifer and Auron both look really good. The outfits are cool and are very indicative of their personalities.

I was gonna praise Nomura for the Advent Children re-designs but it looks like he didn't do them. The movie may have sucked but the music and visuals were very nice I thought. Tifa especially was a lot more respectable with her dress and breast reduction.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Don't all the Genomes wear a similar outfit? Kuja just pimped his out which kept in line with his narcissism and individuality.

I know a lot of people have problems with Garnet's outfit in IX. Eiko's too.

Edit:

Speaking of FF fashion disasters, what's the consensus on FFXII designs? I know Vaan gets a lot of flack and Ashe too but how about everyone else?

Actually, I don't even know who the character designer for XII was. I don't think it was Amano or Nomura.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 16:56 on May 17, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





It's pretty telling that Weiss' generic design is actually the best design in DOC.

Can people with eyesight better than mine tell me if Sephiroth's design has changed much thanks to better graphics? From what I can tell he has a much thinner figure but that could just be due to the fact they couldn't render that sort of thing in FFVII. I'm more interested if they made his clothes weirder somehow.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





It's nice to hear that they haven't hosed up Seph's look.

I forgot to mention this earlier but people were complimenting XIII's character designs and even though I am one of those few people who liked Snow, his stupid hat ruined everything. It's just totally unnecessary.

The rest of the designs I didn't really notice or care about. Although didn't Serah have like a side-ponytail? As a fan of the 80s, I can respect that.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





So Pesky Splinter thanks for linking to the FFXIII LP. I'm reading it now. It's a long thread and very tedious to get through but I think one of the best parts of an LP is seeing people's reactions to stuff.

Like, I wanna know if anyone else liked Rosch(the PSICOM Colonel guy). He wasn't that great or anything but this game needed interesting villains and he is the only one.

Also I hope there is intense raging at Jihl when she actually ddoes something because holy loving God what a terrible excuse for a villain.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Fister Roboto posted:

Was that the guy who looked like Sepiroth? I doubt he was very interesting because that's literally all I can remember about him.

Well I don't think he actually looks like Sephiroth but there are only three villains in the game so I guess you probably do mean him.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Pesky Splinter posted:

No problem.

I think the antagonists in XIII are the most underdeveloped ones in the entire series, to the point that loving Garland has more of a character than they do.

But that problem is due to XIII's atrocious pacing - we see the antagonists in one single scene, and then one more twenty hours later, and then again in the final act. They are so forgettable infact, that when you see them again, the game has to remind you who the gently caress these people are. And that's not even getting into the vacuous wastes of space that Space Pope or Jihl are.

Oh, and they're cliched to hell, even more so than usual.

Agreed on all points. I've commented on this before but XIII was seriously trying too hard to be not-XII. One example of this is the absolute focus on the playable cast whereas XII had a ton of cutscenes with the Archadians.

The result is that FFXIII's villain are just not memorable at all. I think between Jihl, Rosch and Barthandalus, they had about eight scenes in the entire game.

I guess I kind of cling to Rosch because I'm just so desperate for a decent villain in a see of forgetfulness.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





JoeyJoJoJr Shabadoo posted:

I remember that I used to gave a Geocities site called geocities.com/ihatetifa. I was completely insane about how VII is the best game ever, and Tifa ruined it, and I don't even know but for some reason, I really hated her. I remember seeing a lot of goatse. However, despite my passion for the game, I managed to completely forget about the game/avoid all the fandom that came out after 1998, and never even heard about the other games/movies/whatever.

Thankfully, due to avoiding all that, VII is still my favorite game. I think it's amazing, and the story is amazing. The music is so good that I imported it from Japan many, many, many years ago and blast it in my car regularly (Jenova's Theme ). The only part I hate is having to level up at the end of the game in order to have a chance at killing Sephiroth. I distinctly remember spending a month getting my characters up to level 99 so that I could one-shot him.

I used to feel the same way about Aeris. I know it may sound silly now but when i first played FFVII I thought Aeris would be the female lead. I empathized more with Tifa due to being a lot like her in terms of personality and so I didn't take kindly to this over-aggressive hussy.
I've outgrown it though.

Also why everyone loves J-E-N-O-V-A I will always prefer Jenova Absolute. Shame it's not as popular.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Apart from the hat, I think Snow's design is reasonable.

Also I think black man with afro and chocobo in afro is pretty anime.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Mak0rz posted:

By the end of the game I still didn't know the difference between a Fal'Cie, Ceith, and L'Cie or however the poo poo you spell those dumb words.

Fal'Cie are giant machines that have brains(maybe) and they want to die but they can't because they have godlike powers(except for that time the party overpowered one easily and used it as a means of short-distance transportation) and that's about it.

Hope that clears things up.

Goddammit. Talk about a wasted concept. The fact I could never actually figure out the fal'Cie is the single greatest reason I hate the story in the game.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





I agree with ImpAtom on designs serving as visual representations of the character's attitude and practicality being pretty much unimportant. Something that was brought up in the FFVIII LP thread was how pretty much every character's design fit their personality quite well. JoeyJoJoJr mentioned Zell being obnoxious and he definitely is. That's communicated very well in his design.

The same applies to Seifer who has my favorite design in the game.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





pw pw pw posted:

His character designs are just 'blonde gackt', or sometimes just 'gackt'.

So...he can only do Gackt.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Speaking of The Judges, what do people think of their designs?


Like everything else in XII, I thought the villains were the best and their outfits are no exceptions.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Mak0rz posted:

The problem I have with that CG render there is her pose. Isn't Ashe supposed to be the "tough, independent girl" character? That image just makes her look timid.

Mrs. Badcrumble posted:

Yeah, what I like about Ashe is that she's a mourning widow who's pretty much hell-bent on genocidal revenge for a good 80% of the game. She's a fun protagonist because she's clearly insane with grief.


Ashe was a fantastic main character and that "tough, independent female" was something people threw around a lot for Lightning. Before I played XIII I went in expecting something similar to Ashe.

Well they were "similar" in that they both had a lot of personal sadness to deal with. Only, whereas Ashe's issues were shown in a sympathetic and understandable way, Lightning just acted like a bitch for the longest time while also beating up the guy who was actually trying to save her sister.

Edit:
And I don't mean to keep ragging on XIII. Even if it sucks, bitching over and over again gets tiresome. I actually did like quite a few things about it. It's just that the story and Lightning weren't among those things.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 22:10 on May 18, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





ImpAtom posted:

Ashe was okay, aside from her costume, but it honestly sounds like you say she's "good" because she isn't aggressive or angry and therefore she isn't a "bitch." Which... there's problems with that.

Snow was a douchebag layabout with a hero complex. This is his stated personality. He screws up repeatedly and in general does a fairly poor job of things. Lightning is generally uninterested in his poo poo and she punches him after, as far as she is concerned, her sister died. There's nothing particularly outrageous about that poo poo, it's one of the more believable parts of an otherwise pretty dumb game.

"Acting out" I get and that's more or less what Light was doing. She had the same problem Hope had in that she walks a very thin line between likable and unlikable. She was bitchy and it depends if you can tolerate or even appreciate it until she develops. Hope whines a bunch and it depends if you can actually sympathize with him until he gets over it.

It's a very subjective thing. For instance, I kinda liked Hope so I'm in no position to say my opinion is majority-backed fact. I just didn't think Light was particularly endearing in her coldness and by the time she loosened up I had long since stopped caring about her.

As for Snow being a gently caress-up, that's a genuine character flaw and his "I'm a hero" attitude was indeed a smokescreen so he could avoid feeling the guilt for his screw-ups. It's just that he was still trying. I think it's far more respectable to try and fail than to just say "welp my sister is dead, I might as well be as frigid as possible and probably die on my suicidal mission to stop the machine gods."

quote:

I can understand disliking the character, but seriously, the fact that you use "bitch" really implies the problem is that a female character did it, even if you don't intend it that way. I don't know how good a character Lightning is, but as far as being a female character goes, she's pretty good at avoiding a lot of the poo poo that FF tends to get into.

Well I don't really like overly-aggressive characters in general when their aggression is misplaced. It's just that FF is pretty lacking in the "cold-hearted but secretly suffering" males. I see that more in females in RPGs anyway. It's called Ice Queen for a reason i guess.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 22:28 on May 18, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Fair point about her not being an Ice Queen. That's my bad.

However she didn't punch Snow because he got people killed. Hope had a legitimate gripe with Snow but Light obviously just didn't like him from the start. During the game she's frustrated with her own powerlessness when it came to helping Serah and so she takes it out on an easy target. He isn't responsible for making her a l'Cie and he didn't really do anything except try to save Serah from her fate. Like I said already, I respect his determination to save her whereas Lightning just gave up.

I do have to admit, one should never underestimate the power of a good voice-actor in making you like a character. Snow's VA was the best in the whole game and I probably like him so much at least partly because of this.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 22:44 on May 18, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Did you play the original Japanese version?

Well this is from the only script of the game I could find online:

quote:

Vanille
Why is she turning to crystal?

Hope
L'Cie who fulfill their Focus are transformed into crystal and gain eternal life.

Sazh
Just like the stories say.

Snow
Serah... Sweet dreams.

Lightning
Sweet dreams?
She's not sleeping!
Serah's... She's-

Snow
She's alive!
The legend! Remember the legend!
L'Cie who fulfill their Focus turn to crystal and gain eternal life.
It's the same with Serah!
Eternal life! She's not dead!
Serah's my bride-to-be. I promised to be hers forever! I don't care how many years I have to wait-

So it seemed to me that nobody really knew anything about l'Cie. It was all just rumors and myths so I didn't think Serah was actually dead and I didn't think the game wanted me to think that either. It introduced a couple viewpoints for you to consider.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





ImpAtom posted:

Yeah, I played the Japanese version. I haven't played the US version. In the the Japanese version it's really clear that Snow is basically freaking out and going "She's not dead! She's not dead!" The stuff about Eternal Life is coached in the same kind of terms as "and then you die and ascend to heaven where you live in eternity," further cementing the "the Fal'cie are Gods" stuff. Snow's thing is that he latches onto it and starts going "W.. well, then I'll see her again! That's it!" From what I recall, Daisuke Ono basically plays it like a guy grasping for straws. I'd bet Troy Baker would too if FFXIII's English voice acting direction wasn't poo poo, because Troy Baker's quite good.

I mean, you're really clearly not supposed to think anyone's acting sensibly at that point. They're all suffering tremendous freakouts. The closest to levelheaded are Sazh and Vanille. (Sazh because he's levelheaded and Vanille because she's a dirty liar.) It takes a long time before any of them manage to get themselves together. (And sadly, they do a poo poo poor job of it because FFXIII has issues.)

Well that all makes more sense. I never really did get the feeling Snow was just mad with grief at that point. This does make Lightning's attitude a bit more understandable.

Have you played 12 in Japanese then? What did you think of Ashe compared to lightning since you might have a more "genuine" perspective?


Mazed posted:

And then you get to Fang, who isn't really complicated, which is kind of nice. Her main deals are "Lets kill things until we win" and "Do not gently caress with my Vanille".

The whole narrative seemed like it wanted to show that group getting over their issues and eventually becoming almost this family, but never quite makes it seem convincing.

Like Torokasi I actually liked the cast in XIII quite a bit. It's just that, as you said, it never really pulls off what it's ultimately trying to do with them. I felt that most of their arcs didn't have satisfying conclusions and their development didn't go anywhere.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 18, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Pesky Splinter posted:

^^^
[e]: That's because some of the Judges barely had any scenes - Drace (the female judge - and one of the better ones), gets two, I think, and we see the others about three or four times - Gabranth excluded. I can only remeber the names of Drace, Gabranth and Zargabaath (and that's only because he was voiced by Simon Templeman, best know for his work as Kain from the Legacy of Kain series).

Templeman's voice is godly.

And you got 3 out of the 5 named Judges so that isn't bad. Of the other two, Ghis (the old man who gets himself killed when he sticks the Nethicite into his ship's core) is pretty forgettable. The other one however, Bergan, is very memorable because he has the most distinct helmet style for me.

He also has an awesome scene and boss fight.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





TurnipFritter posted:

My favorite FFXII character design is that one pirate girl who wears a thong on the outside of her shorts.

That would be Elza.


Man, Reddas' three quirky followers were just so random. I get the feeling they were supposed to be slightly more important but what we got was just bizarre and kinda bothersome. Like Balthier's friend in Archades and his goddammed Chops.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Pesky Splinter posted:

JoeyJoJoJr Shabadoo, Please don't say you just watched Advent children?

Hey, that poo poo had the best version of One-Winged Angel. Sure it was like seven years later but the song finally lived up to the hype. I even thought the new lyrics were better.

I forget the rest of the movie though. I think Raiden managed to avoid drowning but then hit Crispin Freeman in the face.

...oh Quinton Flynn, it's sad that Isaaru and that Luca Goers douchebag were your most respectable roles in an FF. Apparently everybody loves his Axel though but I avoid Kingdom Hearts like the plague.

Also a weird observation I've started up. You might have noticed that OWA vid has almost 5 million views. I've started to try and remember each number of views an FF song has on YT in an attempt to find out the most popular Final Fantasy-related track.

Again these are only my observations of just YOutubing songs I like so there are probably more. However the top 3 ones are:
1. One-Winged Angel
2. 1000 Words at 3.5 Million
3. Melodies of Life at 2.6 million

It's just a little curiosity of mine.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Although, does Genesis really qualify as self-insert? I think Squall is proof enough that Nomura has been wanting Gackt since FFVIII. I don't know if there's a record of who approached who first but I'm more willing to blame Nomura and his weird fantasies than Gackt since I like the latter's music. (some of it anyway)

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Nah, that's not MM. The song was performed by Nobuo Uematsu's own metal band, The Black Mages.

Malice Mizer was (unfortunately) disbanded long before Advent Children. Gackt actually left the group before they broke up completely and it was then he became a mega star.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





For you Joey, my quick recommended Black Mages metal covers:
J-E-N-O-V-A
Since you like FFVII.

But their best tracks IMO are:
Clash on the Big Bridge
Battle with the Four Fiends

Also this is definitely a your mileage may vary thing but I really like The Skies Above. It is cheesy but I un-ironically love it.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Back on the topic of character designs, there is one design I've seen Amano get a lot of poo poo for and that's Paladin Cecil. Then again, Paladin Cecil gets a lot of poo poo anyway. Everyone wants their precious Dark Knight with his Instant Kill sword and Darkness.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





I never actually played DoC for obvious reasons and I don't really listen to teh soundtracks of games I haven't played. I do however know that it used a couple Gackt songs and they were decent.

As for XIII, it had a handful of nice songs but like Splinter said, the rest was just kinda there.

To be honest, the only final boss themes I really like are Zeromus' and Battle For Freedom from XII. Oh sure, Dark Messenger and Summoned Beast Battle would be up there too but Trance Kuja and the Aeon gauntlet are not the final bosses. Sigh....

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





OWA is a decent theme but the best versions of it aren't even in the game. The full orchestra version is amazing, as is the rock version, but the one in the game is just kinda bleh for me.

That's not to say the theme isn't used expertly. I love how it starts up while the screen is still black and when it gets to the appropriate part the battle loads and Safer Sephiroth glides into view. FFVII had amazing cinematic direction.

As for Dancing Mad, I have yet to play FFVI and as I said, I don't like to listen to soundtracks of games I have not played. I know it's heretical not to have played VI but I just don't know if I'll ever be able to appreciate the game given how much my fellow FF fans hype it. I feel like I'll have to isolate myself from the world for a week or two so that nothing distracts me from the orgasmic magic and the unrivaled characterization and perfectly-written story and whatever else.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Every area in XIII bored me so much that they could have been playing selections from my favorite bands and I still wouldn't have noticed.

Except the Sunleth Waterscape. Beautiful area and wonderful song. Also I liked when Snow's Theme would play since I think it fit really well given all the action.

The tedious levels are probably why I primarily remember the battle themes and XIII definitely had several good ones.

I still prefer XII's soundtrack. I might be the only person on this forum who likes it but whatever. I can listen to the Boss Theme or To the Place of the Gods or Cerobi Steppe or Theme of the Empire or a ton of other tracks all day.

e:

SpazmasterX posted:

I love their cover of Maybe I'm a Lion.

That is the only song they've covered where I didn't much care for the original at all so their cover made it awesome.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:32 on May 20, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Spiritus Nox posted:

Nah, I like XII's soundtrack too. Not my favorite, but there was some good stuff in there. All the tracks you listed, Battle for Freedom, Seeking Power, the theme that plays when you fight some of the Judges and Vayne's second stage, all good stuff.

Those are great choices certainly but the one you were thinking of is Upheaval(Imperial Version)

Can't tell you how glad I am someone else remembers this song. It's always been one of my favorites ever since I played XII but it hardly ever gets brought up.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Azure_Horizon posted:

XII's soundtrack is the definition of elevator music to me. I could not have been less impressed by a soundtrack than XII's. XIII restored my faith in FF music.

Yep, you hate XII and like XIII. I love XII and hate XIII.

But we both like X-2 so that's good.

I was gonna bring this up in the LP thread but praising the game was unofficially banned in there. Anyway I really liked X-2's final boss theme. Was wondering what you thought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byfjv2REks8

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





kInda unoriginal choice but my favorite track is 1000 Words. I honestly think it might be the best ballad ever in an FF game. The orchestral version that runs during the credits is the best.

As for Memory of Lightwaves, I quite like this vocal version that has the same beat.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Nathilus posted:

Everyone smugly sits around on the airship while Cloud beats the crap out of Sephiroth

The funniest part is that it was Cloud who was getting his teeth kicked in. He was being absolutely destroyed for most of the fight and was about a half-second away from dying while his buddies stood by and Vincent said "he must do this on his own" in a dramatic voice.

I kinda liked the Wannabe Sephiroths because they were cute. In fact, everyone looked really good in that movie now I think on it.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Speaking of Advent Children, I will never play XIII-2. Seeing the first couple epiodes in kung Fu Jesus' LP was enough to help me cement my resolve that the game was awful. The opening is like Advent Children only not even the action was good. this time around.

Also the god pantheon contradicts everything about XIII. It's like how everyone complained about the GF memory altering stuff only being mentioned once in a missable computer screen but this is a billion times worse since it directly effects the ending, the core motivations of the main villain, and the entire plot of the game.

I actually kinda liked XIII's ending with my original interpretation You know, when i followed what the game loving told me.

There ia a single God with Capital G. It made fal'Cie and humans.
Then fal'Cie decided to kill humans to bring Maker back.
Fal'Cie said the party existed to destroy Cocoon but party said "we have to stop the fal'Cie - that's our real Focus" (Vanille says something to this effect as oen of her generic quotes towards the end)
Then party stops fal'Cie and Vanille and Feng discover their true destiny was to save Cocoon.

Only it's all lies. There's no Maker, Barthandalus was an idiot who didn't know anything, the party were effectively dead because their true destiny was indeed to destroy Cocoon and it was only the intervention of a hitherto unmentioned god (in the actual story, not easily missed side materials) that saved anyone. So the party did not fight fate whatsoever.

Goddammit.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:02 on May 21, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Well you know first impressions and all that. The last Square game where they threw in time travel for absolutely no reason was FFVIII. This coupled with the fact Toriyama is still writing the plot does not fill me with confidence when it comes to the game's story.

Also it's great XIII saw fit to only mention those highly imporant plot figures in completely optional quests that were not implied to have any story significance at all. Lesser writers might have thought it important to mention them in an actual cutscene considering one of them was instrumental in the game's climax.

And I've already quoted how XIII's main story contradicts all this bullshit.

quote:

Raines
The entity responsible for creating both humans and fal'Cie.
Long ago, the Maker departed this world, leaving the two races behind.
In a sense, human and fal'Cie are brothers; orphaned by the same parent.
As for the humans, they forgot the order imposed by the Maker. They began to war amongst themselves for the first time in history. The fal'Cie focused on recalling their lost deity and returning to its former glory.
This purpose lies at the heart of all their actions. Calling back the Maker requires a fitting sacrifice.

The cutscenes of XIII paint a very clear picture.

God made everything.
God left.
Fal'Cie want to get God to come back.

Only it's all bollocks. Two entirely different beings made humans and fal'Cie. Those beings in turn are also just "fal'Cie" to the real God of this stupid mythos. That God, Buniberzi I think, is also never mentioned in XIII.

In short, the motivation of XIII's villains is all nonsense and contradicts everything.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:52 on May 21, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Spiritus Nox posted:

It's simple enough to rationilize - either Space Pope is looking for his own Maker, the Maker of all the Cocoon Fal'cie (Lindzei) and lied to Raines because he's a generic villain and an rear end in a top hat, or the Maker of the Gods (Bhuniberzi) and by extension their own creations. I doubt the writers were thinking about that from the start, but I've seen more damning plot holes. It's not like the details of the mythology have any immediate import on 13 anyway.

I just don't like how it undermines the game's entire frickin' message. You're supposed to be heroes carving your own destiny by resisting the tyrannical gods. It's very simple and I can respect it.

But when a god comes along last second and saves you because you were just pawns all along, it shoots the game's theme in the foot and then everything else just tumbles down and loses its value.

I would not have really liked XIII but I wouldn't absolutely hate it either if it had not been for that Deus Ex Machina at the end. There are parts of the game I legitimately like but they become hard to enjoy when I know what bullshit awaits.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Cityinthesea posted:

See I know where you're coming from, I do! You don't have to play 13-2 if you don't want, but it does that message much better than 13 does. I hated 13 but I did really like 13-2 (probably 2nd favorite post SNES era after 12)

Besides, from what I understand (these are pretty big spoilers for 13-2) Etro changed the fates of the protagonists of 13, and that basically hosed her, the world and the protagonists of 13-2. 13-2 also ends with Sarah dying so...

Well...maybe I'll try XIII-2. I'll see if I can find it cheap somewhere.


Winks posted:

They weren't in control of their destiny though. Their focus was saving Cocoon, and that's exactly what they were doing. Becoming a l'cie was like being diagnosed with terminal cancer though, so even if they succeeded they were as good as dead. Etro saved them from that fate. Except for Vanille and Fang, I suppose...

Uh, I'm pretty sure their Focus was to destroy Cocoon. THat's one of my main issues with the game. he heroes insist their real Focus was to save Cocoon but remember when they were all turned to crystal? It was right after they destroyed Orphan ie. right after they doomed Cocoon.

Granted, Cocoon was doomed anyway thanks to Barthandalus but the point remains tht the heroes never overcame their fate. Their fate was to kill Orphan and after they did that, they were effectively dead until a bigger god saved them.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Winks posted:

It was not. They were Pulse L'cie, not Cocoon l'cie. Serah's focus was to tell them their focus. That's why she turned to crystal right after telling them to protect Cocoon. Destroying Orphan ultimately stops the Cocoon fal'cie plans to wipe out Cocoon to open the gate (because they're, you know, dead), creating the crystal pillar prevented the destruction of Cocoon and foiled the Cocoon falcie's plans.

Wait hold on. Vanille and Feng saving Cocoon has nothing to do with anything. The party were turned to crystal before the girls saved Cocoon so you cannot argue they completed their Focus of saving Cocoon before Cocoon as even saved.

Also Barthandalus says outright that Serah's Focus was nothing more than to bring the heroes together. There is nothing to contradict his word except Snow's baseless theories.

quote:

Barthandalus
Allow me to help you see the truth of things. The moment you arrived, your friend wept crystal tears. This was because her Focus required that you be brought together. That girl did nothing but assemble the tools for Cocoon's destruction.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:08 on May 22, 2012

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Winks posted:

I just watched the ending cutscene again to make sure, but the party is not shown turning to crystal before Ragnaros does its thing, and then afterwards the camera descends to them being crystal.

Barthandalus is a Cocoon fal'cie who wants them to destroy him, Orphan, and Cocoon. He's not a reliable source. On the other hand, the person who's only job was to tell the party their focus and is 'rewarded' by the Pulse fal'cie for doing so is pretty reliable. The Pulse fal'cie at the beginning of the game is not in cahoots with Barthandalus. They are mortal enemies.

Well my impression was that both Pulse and Cocoon fal'Cie wanted Cocoon destroyed to summon The Maker. Of course no Pulse fal'cie has a speaking role so I can't exactly gauge what they wanted and I admit I could have been wrong.

Even still, I don't think it's conclusive one way or the other. Their Focus might have been to save or destroy Cocoon since they ultimately did both in a sense.

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NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





I agree completely with that.

The sole reason I actually liked XIII for a while was the characters. Like Spiritus Nox, I didn't really hate the cast like some people. Sadly when the game started to focus less on the heroes' character development and tried to move the plot along, everything just went to Hell.

Although, very strangely, the end of the game has my favorite and least favorite areas. I think Eden Under Siege was my favorite environment throughout the whole game because of the atmosphere and stuff. But then it was followed by Orphan's Cradle which was just total poo poo as a final dungeon.

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