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Weka posted:I understand it's the mainstream view amongst bible scholars that various terms for God originally referred to different gods in the Hebrew pantheon. Different groups who wrote the Old Testament had their own names for God, but as far as I know they all referred to the same entity. The Hebrews' problem with monotheism was not that they had multiple gods of their own, it's that they couldn't stay away from other cultures' gods.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:18
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CrypticFox posted:
Also. the Hebrew word used that translates to "Most High" there is "Elyon", which is also found in other places as "El Elyon", or "The Highest God". "El" means "god", but in Canaanite religion, when it stands alone, it's used to refer to the creator god. Fish of hemp posted:Who is Lord Sebaot? Saboath is a transliteration of a Hebrew word that means "armies". It's usually translated into English as "Hosts", and Adonai Saboath or Adonai Tzva'ot (usually transferred as Lord of Hosts) is a title for God in the bible. usually in a martial aspect. So, like, when Joshua is getting ready to besiege Jericho, a man carrying a sword appears to him and says he's a commander of the army of the Adonai Tzva'ot, and tells him how to conquer Jericho and not to worry because God will make sure the city will fall if Joshua obeys the instructions.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:33
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CrypticFox posted:That's rather unfair, this book is written by someone with a PhD in Roman social history. Mike Duncan is just a dude with a podcast. Having a PhD doesn't mean you're a good writer.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:39
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Having a PhD doesn't mean you're a good writer. Or teacher. Or any of a number of things. A PhD means that you wrote a small book about a subject that about 5-10 people on the planet have the context necessary to understand. It probably means you're good at securing funding but some people enter their PhDs rich or leave with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, so y'know. I'm very glad I bailed with a master's.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:49
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Deteriorata posted:Different groups who wrote the Old Testament had their own names for God, but as far as I know they all referred to the same entity. Ahab served Baal a little, but Jehu shall serve him much!
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Apr 20, 2021 21:55
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Deteriorata posted:Different groups who wrote the Old Testament had their own names for God, but as far as I know they all referred to the same entity. That's a somewhat complicated question with regards to the names El and Yahweh. Yahweh is generally the proper name used to refer to God in the Old Testament, although El is also used a proper name of the singular God on a number of occasions in the bible (especially in Isaiah, Job, and Psalms). Later Hebrews considered the terms to be one in the same, with El just being another title of Yahweh. However, it is very possible, that earlier Hebrews worshipped them as two separate deities, and considered them to be very separate. El was a deity that was worshipped throughout the Levant in the late Bronze and Iron ages. The texts from Ugarit, in modern day Syria (dating to around 1190 BC) clearly depict El as the chief deity of the Ugaritic pantheon. Other, less well attested evidence suggests that El had a similar role elsewhere in the region. A fairly popular (although by no means universal or uncontroversial) theory holds that El was the original chief god of the Israelites, with Yahweh perhaps as a member of the Pantheon. These scholars read Deut 32:8-9 as evidence for this theory, pointing out that the Dead Sea Scrolls version of the passage (which matches the text of the Septuagint) uses the word El (or rather Elyon, which is closely related) to describe the God allotting people inheritance, and the word Yahweh for the God receiving the inheritance. There are a couple of other passages, such as Genesis 49 and Psalm 82, that seem to talk about El and Yahweh as if they were separate entities. Another argument in favor of El as a separate, older deity in Israel that later became subsumed by Yahweh is in the of Israel itself. The word Israel contains the name El at the end of the word, which seems to line up with theophoric practices elsewhere in the region. I'm pulling most of this from The Origins of Biblical Monotheism and The Early History of God by Mark Smith, which are both fascinating (although dense) books if you want to dive deep into this subject. CrypticFox fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 21:55
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Having a PhD doesn't mean you're a good writer. I'm not defending the writing, I also find the tone off-putting, I was just pointing out that there is no reason to believe the historical content to be problematic.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:57
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Man now I feel like a total rear end in a top hat for really liking her style
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Apr 20, 2021 22:46
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Libluini posted:Man now I feel like a total rear end in a top hat for really liking her style You shouldn't. It's a lot like reading this thread, IMO. And I'll take that over dry rear end faux Victorian historical writing any day.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:01
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Libluini posted:Man now I feel like a total rear end in a top hat for really liking her style I dont dislike it, I just find it a bit jarring. It's very engaging, and I think having this sort of book out there is a valuable thing. I enjoyed reading the excerpts from it, although I dont think I would want to read the whole book. Its obviously not for everyone, but neither is traditional academic writing. CrypticFox fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 23:10
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That's encouraging to hear. My view point mostly comes from bad experiences with very interesting, but also very dry German history books. I own one about the 30-years war and one about ancient civilizations. And the thought of re-reading (or even finishing them, I never made it halfway through my 30-years war book) physically hurts. There's tons of fascinating poo poo in there, but the dry tone is so humorless it causes physical pain when reading. At least the 30-Years-War was so over-the-top filled with stupid bullshit it's fun to read about on its own merit, so eventually I hope to face my cowardice and go back to reading. At least this newish anthology of essays about ancient Assyria I just bought is by a lot of different authors, so I hope it's less painful on the dryness. Seriously, I know why they do this, but many books about history/archaeology feel like sandpaper on the mind.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:16
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Libluini posted:At least this newish anthology of essays about ancient Assyria I just bought is by a lot of different authors, so I hope it's less painful on the dryness. Seriously, I know why they do this, but many books about history/archaeology feel like sandpaper on the mind. I think it's legitimately a problem and one factor in why so many people dislike learning about history. A lot of academic writing is horrible to read and I can barely tolerate it even as someone who destroyed his entire life getting a history degree and teaching the subject and poo poo. I've gotten crap many times about liking to read pop history/secondary sources more than academic writing or primary and I'm always just like, it's because the academic stuff you're writing is loving interminable. You can write interesting, rigorous history and make it readable, which is what the best pop history writing does. It's not easy, you have to learn writing skills that you do not get or use in academia, but if you want to actually have people read your work it's worth doing.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:22
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This but history
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Apr 20, 2021 23:25
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Warden posted:That is not edited from a Chick tract, by the way.  Regardless, it owns.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:28
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From a while ago, but:Elissimpark posted:Would anyone know anything about kingship (or queenship) as a sacred role, where the fate of the ruler is seen as tied to the land they rule? ... The Lone Badger posted:The first one pops up in Arthurian myth. Try searching for 'fisher king'. I was watching that King Arthur series on The Great Courses that somebody mentioned earlier and the professor mentioned the Fisher King thing a few times. In the context of Arthurian myth, it's usually a guy whose health is tied to the land, and who's also somehow wounded in a symbolically significant way due to some prior sin. Apparently it's a pun in French (where it first appears) - pêche being fishing and péché being sin. Anyways, the fisher king is often presented in French and English sources as, well, fishing but he's never described as actually catching fish. So when Haakon IV of Norway commissioned a bunch of translations of Arthurian legends as part of his cultural program, the scribes who translated the Percival story add a little aside when Percival first meets him - instead of just sitting in a boat fishing, he actually catches a fish, because, like, why go fishing if you aren't catching anything? Duh. Libluini posted:Man now I feel like a total rear end in a top hat for really liking her style I would like the style in an effortpost and be vaguely annoyed at its presence in a published book. This is especially true when it invokes specific references - like that excerpt posted:In a move of extraordinary ballsiness, Clodius went full Shaggy in court and declared that it wasn't him in Ceaser's house because he hadn't even been in Rome that day. Like...uh, scooby-doo? What? Google gives me, uh, this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_(musician) - which is also unhelpful. Like from context, you can kinda get it, but also I still have no idea what specifically she's trying to reference here.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:32
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Shaggy is an artist with a hit song called wasn't me. Where his girlfriend walks in on him cheating and he just tells her it wasn't him. https://youtu.be/sTMgX1PDGAE
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Apr 20, 2021 23:34
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It should be possible to write engaging history without swearing like you're writing a 2005 GBS post.
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Apr 21, 2021 00:25
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sullat posted:I remember reading that in Sumer if there were bad omens about some disaster that would befall the king, they'd appoint a temporary king to take the brunt of the disaster. If he did, great, if nothing happened, they'd quietly dispose of him and the 'real' king would come back. This backfired once when the replacement king, a gardener, had the old king poisoned and took his place permanently. All this is legendary, or course, so who knows what really happened? Certainly a twist on the old legend 'the gardener is really the secret heir'. That's it, thanks. Might have happened elsewhere in Mesopotamia too. Have to revisit.  E: Still think I saw it in reference to some Celtic king to. Might be the beer though too. Otteration fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 00:29
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It should be possible to write engaging history without swearing like you're writing a 2005 GBS post. but the late republic is the most loving epic poo poo
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Apr 21, 2021 00:33
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Otteration posted:That's it, thanks. Might have happened elsewhere in Mesopotamia too. Have to revisit. Yay: https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/now-at-the-met/2017/solar-eclipse-substitute-king
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Apr 21, 2021 01:12
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There’s a similar concept reflected in the Han account of the high Roman empire. Possibly represents a fairly common feeling in any society with a history of disorderly transitions of power.Gan Ying’s Chapter on the Western Region posted:The Kingdom of Da Qin (the Roman Empire)1 is also called Lijian. As it is found to the west of the sea, it is also called the Kingdom of Haixi (Egypt). Its territory extends for several thousands of li. It has more than four hundred walled towns. There are several tens of smaller dependent kingdoms. The walls of the towns are made of stone.
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Apr 21, 2021 01:37
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Otteration posted:Yay: quote:Although it seems like an especially gruesome fairy tale, there are many historical records of substitute kings and the real kings they protected from the anger of the gods. Erra-imitti, king of the city-state of Isin in southern Iraq from 1868 to 1861 B.C., died "after having sipped a broth that was too hot" while his substitute was still alive. So the substitute king, a gardener named Enlil-bani, continued to rule Isin until 1837 B.C. I'm guessing Enlil-bani might be a murderer, or an accomplice to murder
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Apr 21, 2021 02:11
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Props to Enlil-bani for making the best of a hosed up situation
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Apr 21, 2021 04:44
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skasion posted:There’s a similar concept reflected in the Han account of the high Roman empire. Possibly represents a fairly common feeling in any society with a history of disorderly transitions of power. I remember this passage being quoted a lot in this thread, mostly because it's so absurdly idealized. To be fair, Rome did actually have a peaceful transition of power around the time he was writing (Nerva adopted Trajan as his successor and died of natural causes shortly afterward), but this was only 30 years after the Year of Four Emperors.
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Apr 21, 2021 04:47
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It's always very hard to keep in mind that contemporary perspectives and viewpoints are actually pretty narrow compared to modern views on the whole historical chain of events. A traveler will have an even narrower perspective on a land they passed through and didn't grow up in or anything. Is there any good way to measure the relative density of more tumultuous periods and events other than to just go through all the dates and work out the numbers yourself?
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Apr 21, 2021 05:30
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cheetah7071 posted:I'm guessing Enlil-bani might be a murderer, or an accomplice to murder Yep. Or the real king's cronies realized the real king was a butthead, and realized a chance for a change. Or the real king was an idiot and liked hot soup too much. So many possibilities from so far ago.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:36
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I mean if GWB actually died from that pretzel would everyone assume he was assassinated?
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Apr 21, 2021 05:46
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Silver2195 posted:I remember this passage being quoted a lot in this thread, mostly because it's so absurdly idealized. To be fair, Rome did actually have a peaceful transition of power around the time he was writing (Nerva adopted Trajan as his successor and died of natural causes shortly afterward), but this was only 30 years after the Year of Four Emperors. TBH I always thought it was based on Cincinnatus. To me the most outstanding feature is the mention of silkworms. Successive Chinese governments were very territorial about sericulture. Another state producing silk is genuine cause for alarm.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:51
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Tulip posted:TBH I always thought it was based on Cincinnatus. Apparently Gan Ying was most likely thinking of sea silk there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gan_Ying#Analysis
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Apr 21, 2021 05:55
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Tunicate posted:I mean if GWB actually died from that pretzel would everyone assume he was assassinated? No but if he suddenly died and the guy succeeding him had the royal physician proclaim "oh yeah he totally choked on a pretzel" there probably would be some (not openly voiced if you know what's good for you) questions
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Apr 21, 2021 06:02
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SlothfulCobra posted:Is there any good way to measure the relative density of more tumultuous periods and events other than to just go through all the dates and work out the numbers yourself? Not sure if this is exactly what you're asking, but density of bodies and fire layers help archaeologically (eyewitness helps to, if available). Works for short- and long-term events. These folks were all surprise killed, the killers didn't even bother robbing them, and the site was apparently left intact as a message (these dead people were "evil", so we killed them, and now they haunt it...stay away): https://archaeology-world.com/brutal-pre-viking-massacre-uncovered-in-sweden/ More bodies: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle Boudica's rampage has lots o fun carbon (fire) evidence but not so many surviving bodies, IIRC: https://archaeology.co.uk/articles/specials/timeline/the-story-of-roman-london.htm The science is just getting started at detecting old human proteins that are everywhere though. Soon. E: Can't not mention the worldwide KT boundary layer, but while calamitous, no people died.
Otteration fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 06:17
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Kylaer posted:
Petri Hiltunen has done a lot of cool comics and illustrations. Fantasy, horror, westerns, science fiction, rpgs, history, classic plays, splatter-punk, soft-core porn, newspaper 3-panel funnies, you name it, he's done it. He's got very recognizable style, with lots and lots of detail but certain stiffness, especially when portraying motion. He once did a graphic novel about the Finnish Civil War where had two different stories portraying the same events, and you had to turn the book around and start reading from which would normally be the back cover to get the other story. Pretty chill and nice old dude, who's really into history, every time I've met him, but also a walking exhibit A how you really shouldn't become an artist in Finland if you want any kind of financial stability. Warden fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 10:13
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Tunicate posted:I mean if GWB actually died from that pretzel would everyone assume he was assassinated? The pretzel story was to distract from him falling off the wagon. In the iconic picture of W on the ground after the pretzel, you can see a half drank fifth of whiskey on his desk. Dude was loving lit.
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Apr 21, 2021 12:11
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Didn't christianity basically absorb Neo-Platonism and Stoicism?
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Apr 21, 2021 13:47
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skasion posted:Distinct, but not separate. Consubstantial. It ultimately depends where you are, saints in haitain culture are very much local spirits/religious entities with their names find and replaced iirc.
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Apr 21, 2021 14:48
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Telsa Cola posted:It ultimately depends where you are, saints in haitain culture are very much local spirits/religious entities with their names find and replaced iirc. Germany got hit even worse by this, back then monks liked to collect stories from the peasants. And when writing them down, they excised all mentions of pagan gods and replaced them with God/Devil when appropriate. If you take up a modern collection of Grimm's Fairy Tales, every time a story mentions God or the Devil, it's based on older stories involving our old Gods. In some cases, God/Devil even referred to the same entity! E.g. Odin/Wotan could apparently be quite the prankster, so in some stories he was replaced by God, in others by the Devil.
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Apr 21, 2021 15:42
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Deteriorata posted:Different groups who wrote the Old Testament had their own names for God, but as far as I know they all referred to the same entity. well it depends on how you define "other cultures" the hebrews are one of many canaanite groups who likely started out indistinguishable from each other and diverged over time. they had a pantheon in common which included El, Yahweh, and Baal among others, and much like the greek city-states each locality ended up considering a particular god as their patron deity. El seems to have been the head of the pantheon overall, but his attributes and deeds tended to gradually shift to the local patron over time. as such, the hebrews ended up with a Yahweh-focused monotheism, while (for example) the ancestors of the carthaginians went through a similar process but with Baal as the focus. they didn't end up monotheistic, but they do seem to have amalgamated El and Baal together in much the same way that the hebrews did with El and Yahweh. a lot of things in the old testament make more sense when you can make connections to the things we know about carthage, imo. like the whole deal with abraham and isaac - why would you even bother to write a story where god tells a guy to sacrifice his son, then says "nah just kidding, that poo poo's wack"? well, because as a community you decided that human sacrifice sucks, and you arrived at that point through experience; we can strongly suspect that the canaanites likely had a culture of human sacrifice because the carthaginians practiced it. maybe they even had a version of abraham's story where abraham does the deed and baal gives him a thumbs up and rewards him somehow. i really, really wish we had more (i.e. basically any) sources from the carthaginian tradition. i think i'd even put a solid history of carthage above Lives of Famous Whores on my wishlist of ancient texts
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Apr 21, 2021 17:41
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Happy birthday, plebes. I declare a celebration of memes and shitposting.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:55
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Jazerus posted:well it depends on how you define "other cultures" Yeah, that's part of what I meant. At the time of their reentry into Canaan, the Hebrews didn't see themselves as a separate nation yet, and the notion that they were a distinct people with their own god was part of what they were dealing with. The other was "just who is this YHWH dude and how does he fit in with all the other gods we worship?" They ended up amalgamating several concepts together to create their own theology and generally had no problem with borrowing wholesale from other cultures if it was useful to them. Psalm 104 is apparently an almost word-for-word copy of a Canaanite hymn to Baal. They freely borrowed other myths and stories from anybody and everybody and twisted them as necessary to fit their needs. It wasn't until the Babylonian Captivity and contact with the Zoroastrians that they got a really good model of monotheism and came back from that with a completely different take on religion. So sorting out just what the ancient Hebrews believed and when they believed it is complicated. Deteriorata fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 18:11
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