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TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax
I remember learning that much of Christianity's adoption was driven by the desire of the equestrian class to have a new social hierarchy that reflected their political and economic power. Is that true?

Could someone explain populares and optimates?

And what about nefas and tribunes?

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TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax
Speaking of slavery, what's the long and short of the slave uprisings and the introduction of chattel slavery from Carthage?

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax
Oh come on, guys, you mention the story without mentioning that it's the origin of the expression "fire sale". Don't you know the entire point of learning Roman history is to pause at the end, and then note just that kind of thing.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

TheChimney posted:

Can any of you recommend some good books about Roman History? I'm looking for something that is entertaining, but accurate. It doesn't have to be military history; I'm open to just about anything.

I think everyone should read Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It's a beautiful story and as much about the British Empire as it was about the Roman.

Which reminds me--Gibbon, I believe, tells a story of one of the Four Emperors camped out across the river with his army from the army of another of the Four. Gibbon wrote that a dozen or so men crossed the river and routed the opposing army of 60-100,000 men. It's been over a decade since I read Gibbon, so I'm probably screwing this story up in all sorts of ways, but does any of this have any basis in fact?

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

DarkCrawler posted:

Better to trade with the tribes who are crazy enough to live in those hellholes then to try to conquer them (never an easy thing to do with nomads) and eke out whatever little you can get out of there.

Bit of a stretch to think of Ethiopia and Mali as tribes eking out their existence.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:

Not to derail, but what were Ethiopia & Mali like during Roman times? Did the Romans trade with them?

I thought Mali would have a longer history, given how their great wealth and influence during the Islamic period, but a quick Wikipedia search reveals that Mali wasn't cohesive until 700CE. Ethiopia, on the other hand, was minting coins and considered a real state in 2C CE, known as Axum.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

BrainDance posted:

I dont know enough about Roman culture, or that anyone does, but how much of that survived to the present? Sorry, another really vague question, but how much is my culture as an American Roman?

Like, if we were comparing modern Korea to Qing China?

Lets say, for example the traditional "individualist vs collectivist" society distinction. Did the European individualism come from Rome?

You're not thinking far enough afield.

Islam grew up in Rome as much as it did in Persia. Think about it: Hispania, Syria, Egypt, Arabia, North Africa, and the Levant--these were all core regions in the early Islamic period and all Roman. Why do you think Islamic scholars were so keen on translating the ancient Greeks? Omar was said to have wept at the conquest of Persia, because its wealth would corrupt the early Islamic state, which eventually moved to Baghdad from Damascus in what was the Roman province of Syria.

Similarly, Augustine was from Hippo, and highlighted the fact that much of the early Scholastic tradition was created not in Ireland but in the modern Middle East.

You don't hear about it too much because Westerners want to orientalize Islam and most conservative Muslims seem to think any ties to Roman history are demeaning.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:

When did Greek become the dominant language of the Eastern-part of the Empire (Byzantium)? Pre or Post Collapse of the 'Empire'?

Pre-collapse. The entire East was run in Greek for the Imperial period.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Amused to Death posted:

I think it was in the mid 7th century where Greek was finally legislated as the official de jure language of the Eastern Empire. Justinian though the century beforehand had been the last emperor to actually speak Latin as his native tongue. Other fun Greek things, the Drachma, at least a continuation of it, was in fact a common currency of the eastern Empire even in Pax Romana days, going 1=1 with the Denarius, except in Egypt, their currency had a weirder exchange rate, I can't find the exact number in this sourcebook though.

According to Bowersock in `Roman Arabia`, the entire eastern empire always operated in Greek, so much so that when the Nabataeans were Romanized, they switched from Nabataean to Greek.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax
Rome never came close to producing enough iron for any proto-industrial revolution--I'm curious as to their use of coal, though.

Song China was the closest to an early industrial revolution, but it was cut short by the Jurchen conquest. Kaifeng (the capital of the Northern Song) was remarkably close to coal and iron reserves and they were starting to produce significant amounts of both. One argument is that an industrial revolution requires that kind of proximity to both sources, with a few other factors in place as well.

Remember, the steam pump wasn't invented for drilling or railroads, it was invented to pump water out of mines. Without those kinds of use cases where a small, effective, but still low-level steam pump would prove useful, then you don't have the chance to develop the technology into something effective for larger applications.

As for rails, why would you invest so much manpower and money to improve land transportation of goods when sea transport was so cheap?

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Alan Smithee posted:

I vaguely recall reading about an inventor appearing before an emperor with something, I don't remember what (I want to say mirror-like glass?) and being executed because the emperor didn't want the invention to kill certain industries

Jared Diamond presented as part of his thesis in GG&S that big monolithic powers like China were more likely to squash innovation due to their orthodox character, whereas squabbling regions like Europe promoted innovation because you could always shop your idea elsewhere. The reality is that big stable regimes like Song China, Pax Romana, Pax Mongolica, and the Islamic Golden Age produced much more innovation than all squabbling periods except post-Medieval Europe. The recent success of Europe likely has more to do with universal scaling laws fostering the creative class a la Geoffrey West.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

sbaldrick posted:

There where at least some Jews in Mecca before the advent of Islam. Arabia Felix is what is now Yemen, and was a major trade route stopping point.

My favorite random Mohammed story is there was at least at one, a letter sent to the Emperor Heraclius saying basically "convert or invade". Making it one of the few times a major religious figure had some historical documentation.

There has been in a significant Jewish population in the Middle East all the way up until modern Arab Nationalism and the rise of Israel. Much of early Islamic history has to do with Muslims dealing with Jewish tribes, which were firmly established in the Bedouin regions.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Amused to Death posted:

-Lead pipes shall not be cast less than 10ft
-On that note though, earthen pipes are far more desirable as they can be repaired by almost anyone, and the water from earthen pipes is much more 'wholesome'. Lead pipes also produce white lead and he seems aware of the bad physical effects this has on the body

And let's not forget that "lead" in Latin is plumbum, which is both where the symbol for lead comes from (Pb) and the word "plumber".

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Farecoal posted:

Fromage, didn't you mention that the Romans invented the hamburger?

Oh, come on, what kind of "invention" is the hamburger? That's like "inventing" the cup of water.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Farecoal posted:

Speaking of, do Catholic priests still do Mass in Latin? If so, how close is it to the Roman Latin?

One of the big deals in Vatican II:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council#Liturgy

Forgot to answer: Pretty much, no and Church Latin is much more sinister sounding than Roman Latin, where the V's are W's.

Weenie, weedy, witchy.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Ras Het posted:

That would be Sardinian, which is considerably more conservative than any other living Romance language. Romanian and Italian are probably the next closest to Latin.

Which reminds me, what's the deal with Sicily, Sardenia and Corsica? I would have thought they'd all end up being more important, but they seem like hillbilly parts of the Empire.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:

Greece vs. Persia: Phalanx vs. Mob
Rome vs. Greece: Legions vs. Phalanx

I guess this had something to do with it?

Fromage could you comment on this as well, if there's a different answer?

The Peloponnesian War and Alexander the Great come to mind.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

euphronius posted:

Hoxne Hoard was buried sometime after the Legions left http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoxne_Hoard

Maybe that stuff was buried because of a general breakdown in order? Who knows.

Hoxne had this gorgeous body chain:



I imagine that would make a fine outfit for Dejah Thoris.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax
I've been playing around with the Oregon Trail version of the ORBIS network:


http://orbis.stanford.edu/via/

And I thought somebody could use it to make a cool travelogue of some of the more important trips in Roman history like St. Paul or some campaigns or something. I don't think it would work so well for Caeser's conquests or a full LP, but if somebody wanted to show where people went, it's fun.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax
What's the deal with all of these plagues? What were they like and how many people did they kill?

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

See that green, flat, lovely spot to the left of Dacia? What's that, and why didn't the Romans ever annex that?

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Octy posted:

Are you referring to the bit that says Iazyges? They were a nomadic tribe that had some dealings with Rome, particularly in regards to Dacia. I believe they eventually became a client kingdom.

Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:

My understanding is that when the Romans took Dacia, they only kept the valuable areas (mostly the South) and left the North alone. I believe that encompassed the area you're talking about.

Yeah, the area marked Iazyges. I'd call it West more than North, but that's why I used the projection-independent Left. It just seems like a nice place to colonize ex-soldiers and such. I figured they never conquered it because it would have been chaotic and unstable because of its proximity to Central Asia.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax
For those of you interested in the Peutinger Map:

http://peutinger.atlantides.org/map-a/

Talbert, who did the Barrington Atlas, wrote a monograph on the TP that broke down the network it represented and included a whole website with its digital equivalent.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

To Chi Ka posted:

Islam originated in the Arabian peninsula(Around Saudi Arabia and Yemen), and moved to North Africa later.

The Arabian Peninsula was a no-man's land between Persia and Rome, equally affected by both. The Umayyad Caliphate had its capital in Damascus, which was Roman Syria. When the Abbasids overthrew them, the remnants of the Umayyad dynasty relocated to Cordoba, which was in Roman Hispania. Augustine was in Hippo, which is modern-day Libya, and is the founder of Scholastic philosophy. Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople and Jerusalem were all Apostolic Sees. It's ignorant bordering on propagandistic to think of Islam as being some kind of Eastern import.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Grand Fromage posted:

All three of the Abrahamic religions are weird eastern imports by Roman standards, I don't know what you're getting offended about.

I'm not offended, I just honestly believe Islam is a lot more Western than traditionally thought. Not sure how you can consider Christianity a weird Eastern import, either. I thought that was Gibbon's long-discarded thesis.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

General Panic posted:

...if Kim Kardashian was also into poisoning people regularly.

She would suddenly be so much cooler.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

FizFashizzle posted:

As bad as it was, it was nothing compared to the Mongol sack of baghdad. The rivers ran black with ink from all the books that were destroyed, and they even destroyed all their irrigation systems.

I can't remember thr exact details but even the Mongol high comman was like "dude poo poo what the gently caress?"

Actually, there's an excellent paper somewhere that indicates that Baghdad was well in decline before its conquest by the Mongols. The whole "Baghdad and Civilization Raped by the Mongols" story isn't historically very accurate, any more than most of the "X and Civilization Raped by the Mongols" stories.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

FizFashizzle posted:

Link that poo poo.

Gunder Frank makes mention of it in p. 250 (Second page of the article) here:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/20078469

The original research is by Abu Laghod, I believe, but it's been a while and I'll see if I can find the seminal paper. It's pretty much accepted by anyone who works in World Systems, which eschews nationalistic histories (and all their "X and civilization was raped by Y" stories) for a more rational view of the evolution of state entities.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Farecoal posted:

Well what if I don't believe in this "world-systems"? :colbert:

Hey that's cool. This isn't an argument, I'm just presenting all these facts and poo poo, but cool stories are always cool, bro.

Cool Mongol fact: For most of the early conquests, they were using bone-tipped arrows. How much does that gently caress up your Civilization technology tree?

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Grand Fromage posted:

As for the Mongols, yeah, they would've rolled right over Rome at its height.

Doubtful. There's no place to pasture your horses in the Roman Empire proper.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Grand Fromage posted:

I know nothing of Mongol horse logistics, was just talking on a pure army to army scale. Horse archers were the bane of the legions.

Yeah, the going explanation for the limits of Mongol expansion was that it tracked the ecosystems where steppe ponies could forage. The only way they moved beyond that was through cultural assimilation a la the Yuan Dynasty, the ilKhanate, or the Mughals.

But I agree, if the Mongols met the Romans on an open field somewhere, they'd murder them.

TildeATH fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jun 27, 2012

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Kaal posted:

KAJSAR :science:

What's that mean, the proper pronunciation would have had a "J" sound in there? Or is it more like the whole Sovjet "more-y-than-j" sound?

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

Frosted Flake posted:

I know Phillip the Arab (Marcus Julius Philippus Augustus)was supposedly one of the first Christian emperors, but was he actually arab?

He was born in a part of Roman Syria that was later ceded to Roman Arabia after Syria was (again) the hotseat of popular rebellion. So, by the time he became emperor, he could claim his hometown was in Arabia, but it was Syrian when he was born there.

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TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax
Where did Hannibal get his elephants from, anyway?

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