Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

JaucheCharly posted:

That's right. Even the strongest bows only barely touch the energy of a .22. Getting shot with an expanding bullet, or even one with a solid core works very differently to a stab wound, as you can see when they shoot ballistic gel. You can see how the tissue around the bullet is expanded into a huge wound channel.

Look at the examples in the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

This was recognized as a problem at the time that handheld gunpowder weapons were really taking off:

(From an English translation of Ambroise Pare's collected works, 1575)

# ¿ Feb 1, 2015 02:25

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# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 14:12

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Xander77 posted:

Huh. The general and his signalers should be on some elevation

Ah, I'll be sure to put in a request for one, wherever they might end up

# ¿ Feb 27, 2015 09:49

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Grand Fromage posted:

I absolutely think the mafia's organization system originated with the Romans. I don't know if it just stayed an Italian tradition for thousands of years or the early mafia people consciously copied the Romans, but the systems are just too similar to be coincidence.

From what we know of the Mafia, the Camorra, and the 'Ndrangheta, they're 19th century.
http://www.vanityfair.com/unchanged/2012/05/naples-mob-paolo-di-lauro-italy
http://www.amazon.com/Men-Respect-Social-History-Sicilian/dp/0029053250
http://www.amazon.com/History-Mafia-Salvatore-Lupo/dp/0231131348/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=18S0E67HPM8XJR5MR2G6
http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brotherhoods-History-Italy%C2%92s-Mafias/dp/1610394275/ref=pd_sim_b_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=18S0E67HPM8XJR5MR2G6

Smoothrich posted:

The Mafia wasn't just the goons collecting debts. They negotiated proper business deals in every community and ensured order and elected politicians who were good to the people but better to their bulging pockets taking a cut on everything. It's a system to extract personal wealth on every step of a social project that benefits the people but makes individuals rich and powerful too. Using violence only when necessary to maintain the order.

Or at least that's what they tell people. Accepting any society's patriotic myths at face value is probably a bad idea.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Mar 9, 2015

# ¿ Mar 9, 2015 08:26

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my dad posted:

The Camorra strikes me as the the most Rome-like. I mean, if the Romans had access to radioactive waste, they too would dump it on the farmland of people they don't like.

good times

# ¿ Mar 9, 2015 08:52

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yeah, in 1453 lol

# ¿ Mar 9, 2015 10:13

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my dad posted:

Smoothrich, everything you said is correct. Everything is the fault of those damned Italians. I can't ever imagine one of those doing a respectable job.

goddamnit, they're onto us

# ¿ Mar 9, 2015 17:30

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Tomn posted:

I mean, hell, if you suggest that modern Italian-Americans (how many generations down, anyways?)

About 4 to 2. My grandfather got here in '28.

Smoothrich, you are probably going to get banned, but stugats, I've got to admire your balls.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2015 19:51

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BravestOfTheLamps posted:

e: more on topic, did Romans ever do anything extravagantly corrupt enough to top the Renaissance Papacy?

the renaissance papacy also has italians in it, therefore, etcetera, qed

# ¿ Mar 10, 2015 00:31

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BurningStone posted:

When the Roman classics were first discovered, didn't the soldiers try to follow them, with rotating men and units forward and back in battle? I seem to recall that it was a bad failure.

Vegetius was known to the Middle Ages, and I think Leo and Aelian were too. While some changes in military practice had to do with Classical influence (Johann of Nassau quotes the classics incessantly in his Kriegsbuch, and gives the commands in languages including Dutch, English, Scots, and Latin) much of it also has to do with the technical requirements of the weaponry people had, which is why Nobunaga invented the countermarch independently.

And the countermarch and the caracole own actually

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Mar 10, 2015

# ¿ Mar 10, 2015 01:04

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The 1500 AD army would wipe the floor with their Classical counterparts. They have steel, they have gunpowder, and they have cannon.

Edit: Also it's not the middle ages any more; the age of the domination of armored cavalry is over. This is infantry and artillery time, and what they have is lots of gunpowder weapons.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2015 02:31

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

peer review is blind, you don't need connections

and i invite you to publish in any major journal of classical history

really

go ahead

You should know, though, before you begin, that Sicily and southern Italy, home of Italian organized crime, were never city states. They were feudal.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2015 07:51

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Smoothrich posted:

I don't know how to publish in any major journals of classical history. That's what I'm asking for advice or guidance on. Where do I even begin?

Usually, you google their websites, click on the thing that says "Author information," and the site'll walk you through it.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2015 08:44

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When the reviews come back, please post them here

# ¿ Mar 13, 2015 09:06

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

My subjects' word for themselves is War People, and that's going to be the title of my dissertation. (Kriegsvolck / Kriegsleuth). Legally speaking though, they are The People Who Gain Salt (s�ldner).

# ¿ Mar 14, 2015 20:19

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Xander77 posted:

Huh. I keep seeing alternate etymologies for "soldier" - the above and the coin "sou" or "soldi". Wonder which one is correct.

That's not "soldier," that's "mercenary." Soldier in German is soldat, and these people use that word much less to refer to themselves.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2015 10:13

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the JJ posted:

[color="red"]Haha you guys don't get it haha soon im going to be published in a peer received journal for my insight into the history of Sicilian city-states and haha Florentine camorra.[/color]

# ¿ Mar 16, 2015 00:51

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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:

Before I started reading and learning about ancient history a couple years ago I would have been shocked to find out that Chinese goods wound up in Rome, or that the Greeks knew about Britain. Even my good history teachers in highschool really compartmentalized the different cultures; one semester you learn about the Egyptians, then one semester about the Romans, then if you're lucky maybe about the Greeks but that was about it. You just never think about them interacting until you find out they did.

The Mahabharata mentions "Rome," but as a place "to the south" because that's where the traders who go to Alexandria leave from

# ¿ Mar 23, 2015 21:19

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JaucheCharly posted:

When Hegel's Saxons speak about Heimat, it is not a reference to a topos that includes a shared history of sort of a larger scope, but a diffuse term that refers to a place of belonging or a small community where people share certain customs (not even necessarily the same language). Nationalism is tied to the existence of a state in the modern sense...

Which also encompasses political loyalty in a way that my guys' Heimat or Land doesn't--my dudes are subjects of the Elector of Saxony (most of them), but bear their military duty to the King of Spain. Both of these are personal relationships.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Mar 30, 2015

# ¿ Mar 30, 2015 21:13

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Tomn posted:

The result is that trimeres usually didn't carry too much water, and needed to lay up on shore on a very regular basis (off the top of my head I'm tempted to say "daily" but I'm not sure) to find supplies.

Nightly, since the dudes need to sleep and there's no room to do that on the boat

# ¿ Apr 1, 2015 20:10

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sullat posted:

Sure, Constantinople did it all the time. It was kind of its shtick. So did Venice and Ragusa. Sarajevo in the modern age. Gilgamesh in the ancient age. Loads more in between.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Bergen_op_Zoom

The 1747 one's the only one they lost, since it's one of those

uninverted posted:

fortified coastal cities that can be supplied forever by sea.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2015 02:53

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StashAugustine posted:

I did like the story in Wedgewood's book where a particularly benevolent Protestant general melts down a bunch of reliquaries from a Catholic church and then leaves the actual relics behind labeled for the church to store.

Yeah, if anyone here doesn't follow my posts in the milhist thread, most of my subjects are much more chill about religion than their employers are, since they work with diverse groups of people and nobody wants to offend anyone. (Probably having friends from a bunch of different backgrounds--or even just knowing someone of a different religion from your own--helps as well.) We know Montecuccoli was personally extremely pious, for instance, but one of his manuals has a thing in it about how to exhort soldiers of different religions (or none at all!) to be brave in combat.

Compare that to Ferdinand II, who said that if putting his head on the block would convert the heretics of his dominions he'd do it, and then promptly proceeded to put his money where his mouth was and almost singlehandedly start the war up again after it was over and he'd won.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Apr 8, 2015

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 03:24

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Kellsterik posted:

That sounds really interesting, do you remember the broad strokes of some of the specific instructions?

HEY GAL posted:

So, suppose you are a 17th century commander and you need to inspire courage in your men. What do you say? Times being what they are, Raimondo Montecuccioli (Sulle Battaglie, 1640) divides his advice according to the religion (or lack thereof) of the recipient.

To atheists, "If the soul dies with the body, death is desirable, for all suffering will end, and man will be freed from all evil."

To true believers, you should say that only the wicked need fear death; the human soul has arisen from the breath of God and will be preserved for eternity only by unification with its source. "Hence most cowardly is the soul which flees peril because of the fear of death, which becomes distressed at the thought of leaving a fleeting and transitory existence for a full and perfect attainment of the benefits of eternity."

To your Protestants, you should say that if you believe in predestination you should not fear death at all, since you can do nothing to escape it. I got this from a secondary source so I couldn't inspect this for his thoughts, but he might not know that different Protestants believe different things about predestination, not to mention that he's confused predestination with regards to whether you're saved or damned with a belief in fate. Both Lutherans and all the varieties of Reformed I can think of would be more likely to find this ham-handed and out of place than reassuring, but at least he's making an effort.

Moreover, if your people are antsy about the fate of their bodies after death, assure them that "If one is buried upon the battlefield, one feels nothing thereby. The glory of one's name is not impaired. Rather, the historical accounts that describe battles will preserve the memory of a person's life far more durably than will all the marble monuments that could be erected on a tomb."

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 06:32

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Kellsterik posted:

Thanks! It's striking how it suggests a culture of tolerance in the ranks, believe what you want as long as you're doing your job.

I've been studying these dudes for a while and yesterday I found my first religious insult, for a grand total of one. Peter Burschel and Maren Lorenz, who also study 17th century mercenaries, never found any. Civilians might want to kill one another over this, but mercenaries seem to think that it's your own business what you believe.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Apr 8, 2015

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 10:17

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Rabhadh posted:

Learning from you the huge differences between the soldier and civilian worlds was a really big eye opener actually, so many things make sense when you learn they live almost completely separate and in many ways competing lives.

Not completely separate. They live in your house, whether you want them to or not. (If the soldiers work for your head of state, don't run away when they come calling; that's treason and is legally punishable by fire. If the soldiers work for an enemy power, it doesn't matter what you do.)

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 10:59

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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

Is this a euphemism for shooting or is it literally fire?

I mean they both would suck but the latter is pretty much

It's setting their poo poo on fire while they're hiding in the woods. People sent to extract contributions don't prefer this, it's inconvenient and if you destroy their livelihood this year you can't get anything from them next year, but it happens.

sullat posted:

This certainly explains the 3rd amendment.

The most common way of extracting contribution money is to say that otherwise troops will be quartered on you. Cities are willing to pay giant sums to escape this.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 19:23

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feedmegin posted:

You also get to feed them for free and they're probably shagging your daughter/wife.

Technically, if it's a friendly power they're supposed to reimburse you for their food and upkeep. The city council gives the colonel/captain money for this, he takes his cut and gives his soldiers money, and they pay you.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 19:48

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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

This is actually a relief because I assumed the punishment was being set on fire instead of just having your property burnt.

Well, with the first one of those you die today; with the second one you die this winter.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 00:29

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Halloween Jack posted:

The costumes in many films set from the 13th through the 18th centuries just seem like they'd be really warm. I'm sure the costumes in movies and shows are often more ornate (and cleaner) than what people were wearing on a day to day basis, but only to a point. Woolen hose, brocaded or leather jerkins, layers of slashed-and-puffed fabric, the stuffed hose and ruffs of the Elizabethan period...even with linen undergarments to absorb sweat, lots of historical clothes seem like they must have been intolerably hot in the warmer months in spite of the "Little Ice Age." I've seen from some historical illustrations that lower-class people working in fields, factories, and mines could get away with wearing linen braies or even less, but it seems that a lot of people doing heavy work throughout the year were still wearing layers of wool.

It's pretty warm, but if you drink lots of water a whole shitton of wool is actually not that terrible in the summer unless you live in Italy or Spain or something. Wool also feels nicer than synthetic fabrics.

Did I post my reenactment stuff in here? This is what I wear, plus armor when something's happening:

(The jacket isn't padded or stiffened, though. It also does not fit me.) And it's not that big a deal. I come from a hot climate though, and the Germans I reenact with always complain horribly when it gets into the 90s.

quote:

I wonder what the ambient temperature actually would have been in different types of buildings at different times of the year. Without central air on for hours a day, I expect that a lot of indoor spaces would've stayed colder than the outside temperature. On the other hand, they probably weren't nearly as well-ventilated. Burning wood, wax, and oil for light must have made a difference, too.

Almost certainly most places would have been stuffy in the summer and (because they're poorly insulated) freezing in the winter, even with fires. I've read 18th century things that describe people keeping their coats and poo poo on indoors in the winter because although it was warmer than the outside it was still very cold unless you were right next to a fire or something.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 22:50

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Hogge Wild posted:

Since the Early Modern thread has been archived I'll ask it here. Could you tell about smoking in the Early Modern era? I've heard that only the Spaniards and Portuguese smoked cigars and everyone else smoked pipes, is this true?

Not sure. I will say that I've never seen a cigarillo in an English, Dutch, or German painting though. If anecdotes mean anything.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 23:07

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StashAugustine posted:

Honestly for me the most part of Wedgewood was the letter from an English ambassador late in the war describing how the countryside was entirely destroyed and it was just a miserable place to be and all you can think is "yeah don't get too comfortable back home."

As early 17th century wars go, the ECW is nothing. That guy is very fortunate to be English.

And Halloween Jack, bear in mind that in addition to lulls in the fighting, there are also areas which were untouched by the direct effects of war. They would have suffered from the economic disruption and probably also from illness, but they would have been spared the getting murdered part. The 25-40% figure is an average. (It's also due primarily to illness and financial problems, rather than targeted killings)

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 10, 2015

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 17:28

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my dad posted:

Goes up to "Everybody's dead, Hans" in places like Magdeburg.

Killing 25,000 people in a single day, before industrialization, is a feat.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 17:34

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SEXMAN, you might appreciate this: the latter half of the 17th century managed to be classier about contributions, but they were still exacted under threat:

# ¿ Apr 11, 2015 08:34

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2015 09:27

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Tomn posted:

It seems like the one universal aspect of every history thread is that everyone's history education pre-college/university was somehow poo poo.

I grew up in northern New Mexico, so I got the glorious history of the 16th and 17th century Spanish Empire

no complaints here

# ¿ Apr 28, 2015 19:46

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JaucheCharly posted:

You also know how to cook meth and shoot varmints from the back of a pickup.

glorious :spain:

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Apr 28, 2015

# ¿ Apr 28, 2015 19:54

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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

For a while it seemed like every other time the history subject changed was Time For More Tudors. Especially that stupid loving Tudor boat

shut up, that boat owned

# ¿ Apr 28, 2015 23:32

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Oberleutnant posted:

spare a thought for those of us that grew up in Portsmouth and were dragged down to the historic dockyard to stare at that driftwood at least twice a year.
Looks quite nice now in the new visitor centre though.

it is very important for people who care about the history of cannon

# ¿ Apr 29, 2015 08:50

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hailthefish posted:

Or like how all of Europe were killing eachother over religion or whatever

i study that conflict for a living and this is still more or less the way i think about it

# ¿ Apr 29, 2015 23:48

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MrNemo posted:

Also the 30YW and basically all continental European history was ignored in my history education. I mean we're in the UK, why would we need to learn about things that happened in Europe?

Professional British historians of the English Civil War are still really bad at 30YW stuff; they'll mention completely normal practices as though they were the first to discover them. You guys are pretty

insular

# ¿ Apr 30, 2015 04:11

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# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 14:12

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Disinterested is right, and a good poster. Even most 17th century Europeans have no concept of race, except the Spanish (kinda). And we know what the Romans or Greeks think about certain topics by reading the things they wrote and trying as much as possible to enter into their mindset, same as anything else.

Edit: Usually a good poster.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Apr 30, 2015

# ¿ Apr 30, 2015 22:29

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