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Diametunim
Oct 26, 2010


Hopefully this doesn't break any rules but I'm going to cross post some questions I had about suspension and body work in here from the Miata thread. I've been aware for some time that my suspension has been bottoming out during track days. I'm curious if this is due to the car being too low (4.25in F / 4.5in R pinch weld), being under sprung, or having crappy dampers (or a combination of all 3) and whatever else you can tell me by looking at these photos.

Should I have the fenders rolled to prevent this damage in the future?

The car is on Tien Street Basic Dampers with Fr 392 lbs/in, Rear 336 lbs/in spring rates (as far as I know). I'm soon to be in the process of replacing the Tien suspension with a set of Gen 2 Xida Races with 800/500 spring rates, i'm excited to see the difference it makes.











These bushings are toast right?


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The Prong Song
Sep 7, 2002

He Looked Right At Me!
He Turned His Head, Looked Me Straight In The Eye!

I Am Awaited!
I AM AWAITED IN VALHALLA!


Diametunim posted:

Hopefully this doesn't break any rules but I'm going to cross post some questions I had about suspension and body work in here from the Miata thread. I've been aware for some time that my suspension has been bottoming out during track days. I'm curious if this is due to the car being too low (4.25in F / 4.5in R pinch weld), being under sprung, or having crappy dampers (or a combination of all 3) and whatever else you can tell me by looking at these photos.

Should I have the fenders rolled to prevent this damage in the future?

The car is on Tien Street Basic Dampers with Fr 392 lbs/in, Rear 336 lbs/in spring rates (as far as I know). I'm soon to be in the process of replacing the Tien suspension with a set of Gen 2 Xida Races with 800/500 spring rates, i'm excited to see the difference it makes.
...
I think your dampers are probably toast. I'm sure other Miata guys (I'm looking at you, Phone), will tell you you're under-sprung as well. I have a friend with the Xidas, and he's quite happy with them; getting those will probably fix all those issues at once. You're not too low and definitely don't need a fender roll.

Diametunim posted:

These bushings are toast right?

Yes. The upper and lowers are, the rest looks decent, but it's so cheap and easy to do why not swap them out?

The Prong Song fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Feb 10, 2020

TrueChaos
Nov 14, 2006




I'm assuming you're on 15x9 & 225/45 tires. You're under sprung in the front for sure. Don't worry about rubbing on the fender liners, they're self modifying. You can simply remove them if you're not worried about autox classing (STR - the fender liners have to stay).

I've got a 99 with 800/500 xidas, 4/4.25 f/r pinch weld heights. I had to roll and pull the front and rear to run 245's, and I get very minor rubbing on the shock towers with 5mm spacers. Not enough to feel, but enough to wear the paint off in one spot.

If your fenders are contacting the tires, you need to roll / pull to prevent it. If they're just hitting the fender liners, either remove them or don't worry about it.

With respect to your bushings, the diff ones are probably toast. Mine were, and I replaced them with poly. The other pictures appear to be ball joints / tie rod ends. The upper ball joints are pressed into the UCA's, it's easier just to replace the UCA's. The lower ball joints are easy to replace, and you should get extended ones - easy way to add camber.

With respect to the rest of the bushings, don't assume they're trashed. Get a pry bar in there and see if you can get any play out of them. If you can, replace them, if not they're probably fine. I couldn't get any play in mine, chances are the rubber has hardened up and they're fine.

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.

Megamarm

RE: Fender liners - are Miata fenders strong enough to not get pin dents from the inside out from rocks thrown by tires?

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

Itís flimsy plastic held on with only a few bolts and trim push clips. The fronts wear in the front and straight up.

If youíre running wide tires and are lowered, you need to roll the lip of the fenders in on an NA on all four corners. I think NBs have way more room in the rear.

TrueChaos
Nov 14, 2006




Phone posted:

If youíre running wide tires and are lowered, you need to roll the lip of the fenders in on an NA on all four corners. I think NBs have way more room in the rear.

If you're low on 225's or larger you'll probably need to roll & pull the rears, at least that was my experience.

Diametunim
Oct 26, 2010


The Prong Song posted:

I think your dampers are probably toast. I'm sure other Miata guys (I'm looking at you, Phone), will tell you you're under-sprung as well. I have a friend with the Xidas, and he's quite happy with them; getting those will probably fix all those issues at once. You're not too low and definitely don't need a fender roll.


Yes. The upper and lowers are, the rest looks decent, but it's so cheap and easy to do why not swap them out?

I've wondered what condition the dampers are in but I don't think they're blown. They aren't leaking and appear to be in relatively good condition compared to a damper that has seen some mileage. Either way, don't care. they're garbage and I can't wait to be rid of them. I pretty much knew the bushings in the control arms were shot but thanks for confirming. I was more concerned about the tie-rod ends as I may be needing to send the rack of to be rebuilt and may as well refresh everything else while I'm there.



TrueChaos posted:

I'm assuming you're on 15x9 & 225/45 tires. You're under sprung in the front for sure. Don't worry about rubbing on the fender liners, they're self modifying. You can simply remove them if you're not worried about autox classing (STR - the fender liners have to stay).

I've got a 99 with 800/500 xidas, 4/4.25 f/r pinch weld heights. I had to roll and pull the front and rear to run 245's, and I get very minor rubbing on the shock towers with 5mm spacers. Not enough to feel, but enough to wear the paint off in one spot.

If your fenders are contacting the tires, you need to roll / pull to prevent it. If they're just hitting the fender liners, either remove them or don't worry about it.

With respect to your bushings, the diff ones are probably toast. Mine were, and I replaced them with poly. The other pictures appear to be ball joints / tie rod ends. The upper ball joints are pressed into the UCA's, it's easier just to replace the UCA's. The lower ball joints are easy to replace, and you should get extended ones - easy way to add camber.

With respect to the rest of the bushings, don't assume they're trashed. Get a pry bar in there and see if you can get any play out of them. If you can, replace them, if not they're probably fine. I couldn't get any play in mine, chances are the rubber has hardened up and they're fine.
Feel free to point and laugh at me but I'm not sure if my wheels are 15x8 or 15x9. I should probably measure. I'm currently on 205/50s. I'm more concerned about preventing rust where the tires met the fenders in the rear. The fender liners in the front don't bother me and are cheap enough to replace. Even though I'm not building the car for a particular class (it's just my hpde car) I'd like to keep all of the original parts in place because it does get driven on the street to and from events.

Just curious If you drive your setup on the street how tolerable do you find it? I have have to be careful on the street with my current suspension setup as it's pretty prone to scraping. I'll take a look at the bushings and see what I find. It's kind of disheartening to hear that changing the upper ball joints is a pain in the rear end. I was hoping to not have to pull the UCAs but I suppose it's only one more thing.



Thanks for the advice all

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


You are underspring for those ride heights. Raise the car or bump the rates.

I'm on #1000 fronts and 205 Hoosiers, the tops of my fenders are polished shiny.

TrueChaos
Nov 14, 2006




Diametunim posted:

Just curious If you drive your setup on the street how tolerable do you find it? I have have to be careful on the street with my current suspension setup as it's pretty prone to scraping. I'll take a look at the bushings and see what I find. It's kind of disheartening to hear that changing the upper ball joints is a pain in the rear end. I was hoping to not have to pull the UCAs but I suppose it's only one more thing.

My only real long term comparison is to stock, and I didn't notice a huge difference in ride quality on the street. I did diff bushings and stiffer motor mounts at the same time, so it's hard to pinpoint changes as just suspension based. It's certainly not the most comfortable (I'm running a bucket seat and 6 point harness as well) but the dampers are good enough that I don't really feel like my teeth are being rattled out of my head or anything. Much of it will depend on the roads you drive. I don't mind it at all, but I only really drive the car to / from events.

UCA's are inexpensive, and much easier to change as a unit than messing with the ball joint.

At 205 tires, your wheels could be anything from 6-8" wide, they'd be really stretched on a 9" wheel.

Autoexec.bat
Dec 29, 2012

Just one more level


So I've been considering giving racing a chance, maybe an autocross or something but pretty much all of my cars are godawful slow. Is there a good way to find an autocross for really slow cars? Also are any of these vehicles OK for this kind of thing?

2000 Camry 2.2 - It has 360k miles, an upgraded suspension and decent tires but I've never driven it super hard, handles great but the engine mileage concerns me. 130HP is very optimistic.
1997 Volvo 960 2.9 i6 - This one has a much lower 250k miles and is RWD with fresh front struts but has a tired transverse composite leaf in the rear. It is also a wagon.
1989 Golf 2.0 - Freshly rebuilt engine and low mileage (60k) resealed transmission, the block was upgraded to 2.0l and the head ported so it has about 125HP, but it runs a 3 speed diesel automatic transmission that doesn't hit second until 25mph, has an 8v counterflow head, and 13" tires/wheels.

I'm suspecting none of these are appropriate but my other cars are even less so. (a Suburban, convertible with no roll-bar, and a hybrid)

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007




Show up in whatever you'll have the most fun in and don't worry about being fast when you're new - you won't be, no matter what you're driving.

Autoexec.bat
Dec 29, 2012

Just one more level


Ok cool, thanks. I was concerned since they are all so slow and people posting elsewhere talk about showing up in a "slow" low mileage miata with a 5 speed, which is a bit better than what I have. It'll probably be between the Camry and Golf I think. Just need to find an appropriate event somewhere nearby.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007




Nobody else is driving out there with you so you don't need to worry about being in anyone's way, and the tracks tend to be very tight and short since they're normally done in a parking lot. You could bring a Prius and have fun.

Wrar
Sep 9, 2002



Soiled Meat

Autocross the Golf. It'll be fun.

Gigi Galli
Sep 19, 2003

WORLD COMPETITVE VAPING CHAMPION 2017/18
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NASIOC MASSIVE
~~MONSTER ENERGY~~


Wrar posted:

Autocross the Golf. It'll be fun.

Yeah this! Itís perfect.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

Iíve seen plenty of Accords show up to autocross.

net work error
Feb 26, 2011



The unexpected cars are always the crowd favorites at an autocross. One of my fond autocross memories is seeing a Prius going nuts on the course.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

"I find my life is a lot easier the lower I keep my expectations."
-Bill Watterson


Autoexec.bat posted:

Ok cool, thanks. I was concerned since they are all so slow and people posting elsewhere talk about showing up in a "slow" low mileage miata with a 5 speed, which is a bit better than what I have. It'll probably be between the Camry and Golf I think. Just need to find an appropriate event somewhere nearby.

Yeah autocross is the way to start because like mentioned you aren't really racing against anybody, just your own times. And usually the courses are pretty turny so you won't be getting up to 120+ mph straights or anything, so slower cars are fine.

Everybody focuses on horsepower but driver mods are where its really at. Miatas are slow compared to like Corvettes but so many people love to autocross or track their Miatas because when it comes to real racing, its about driver skills!

You *might* get embarrassed trying to track HPDE the Golf, but maybe not and even then, if you find the right newbie run group then its fine, and people will enjoy having a car they can pass and you can practice your point-bys but you can autocross plenty first anyways

And if you wanna be really cool, rallycross the volvo \m/

honda whisperer
Mar 29, 2009



Drive whatever, you'll love it. Worrying about the ideal car comes much later.

Don't be shy at all about being new. Ask for help, ask experienced people to ride along, ask to ride in their car, ask them to drive yours.

Your goals should be:

1. Have fun
2. Get better

Once your car starts holding you back you can look at either mods or a different car.

Also post about it, a lot.

Autoexec.bat
Dec 29, 2012

Just one more level


Thanks for the advice guys, I'll see if I can find an event to drive at with the VW to start with. And yeah I wouldn't drive the VW on a full track, 80mph is about 3800 RPM so 100 is unlikely. Road Atlanta is the only track I know of in my area and from what I hear that isn't ideal.

I may reconsider the Volvo once I get a new rear leaf for it but 960 leaves are *really* hard to get a hold of new for some reason.

Also should I have any concerns about the brakes? My golf is a GL and therefore has solid non-vented brakes.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Autocrosses are not long enough or fast enough to get major heat into brakes. Doubly so when you as a driver are not that fast.

Autoexec.bat
Dec 29, 2012

Just one more level


Ah alright, thanks again everyone, I'll try to take some pics when I get a chance to go once I catch up on some repairs. You guys have made me feel a lot better about it.

drgitlin
Jul 25, 2003
WHY DOES EVERYONE IN AUTOMOTIVE INSANITY HATE ME? READ ABOUT IT NOW AT HTTPS://ARSCLOWN.COM/GITHEAD/10 REASONS WHY I AM A PRETENTIOUS TWAT

Weíve raced a Mk2 Golf at Road America plenty of times. It gets up to about 122mph before you have to brake for turn 5.

jonathan
Jul 3, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 30 days!


Test n tune footage from the ice track
https://youtu.be/AvMZEgiV_hQ
https://youtu.be/fTYVURbFHow

266 1.5" ice screws per tire. When the ice is clean I'm getting grip comparable to warm blacktop.

Other than the Honda cr500 2 stroke in a 250cc aluminum frame that I was getting walked on in the straights this thing is lol fast.

Autoexec.bat
Dec 29, 2012

Just one more level


drgitlin posted:

Weíve raced a Mk2 Golf at Road America plenty of times. It gets up to about 122mph before you have to brake for turn 5.

Yeah the whole 3 speed automatic thing kind of dampens my max speed a bit :P.

NinjaTech
Sep 30, 2003

do you have any PANTIES

You only really need 2nd gear in most cars for autocross anyway.

The Prong Song
Sep 7, 2002

He Looked Right At Me!
He Turned His Head, Looked Me Straight In The Eye!

I Am Awaited!
I AM AWAITED IN VALHALLA!


jonathan posted:

Test n tune footage from the ice track
https://youtu.be/AvMZEgiV_hQ
https://youtu.be/fTYVURbFHow

266 1.5" ice screws per tire. When the ice is clean I'm getting grip comparable to warm blacktop.

Other than the Honda cr500 2 stroke in a 250cc aluminum frame that I was getting walked on in the straights this thing is lol fast.

That looks like a goddamn blast!

jonathan
Jul 3, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 30 days!


Some friends are saying I am giving up speed and not defensive enough on corner entry... But with ice you have to stay in the groove to keep traction. The far inside apex and the outside get dusted up and snowy and then the spikes can't do their job.

Ganondork
Dec 26, 2012

Ganondork


You all catch this one? What a poo poo show

https://www.thedrive.com/news/33607...es-punches-fire

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.

Megamarm

The double pass into the braking zone off the main straight is SOP for one of the groups that runs here. That is all a lot for one day :popcorn:

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007




TMP is the closest track to me and I went there precisely once. The only time you would see me on that track is if I had the whole place to myself. And even then, I don't trust their emergency response.

TrueChaos
Nov 14, 2006




Yeah, I've been watching that shitshow unfold across various car groups on facebook. I haven't driven TMP, and from what I've seen of it I doubt I ever will. I find some events at shannonville are also a bit sketchy, its worth it to look up videos from the group running the event before attending. Most are fine though.

I'm lucky in that my home track is Calabogie, and Tremblant is great as well. KillHour & BlackMK4 - you guys ever make it up to bogie?

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007




TrueChaos posted:

Yeah, I've been watching that shitshow unfold across various car groups on facebook. I haven't driven TMP, and from what I've seen of it I doubt I ever will. I find some events at shannonville are also a bit sketchy, its worth it to look up videos from the group running the event before attending. Most are fine though.

I'm lucky in that my home track is Calabogie, and Tremblant is great as well. KillHour & BlackMK4 - you guys ever make it up to bogie?

No, I haven't. It's about a 6 hour drive from Buffalo, so there are a lot of closer tracks than that. I tend to do Pittsburgh and Watkins Glen the most.

NitroSpazzz
Dec 8, 2006

You don't need style when you've got strength!




I just want to know what organization so I can never ever run with them. People ask me why I'm always nervous running with new groups...that's why.

Private test day at Carolina Motorsport Park in early June I'm thinking of signing up for. Would be very limited people which makes me feel a little safer with Coronavirus. VDCA, SCCA and all the track day orgs have been bombarding me with events and pushing for early registration. I'm itching to get on track really bad.

Frond
Mar 12, 2018


It might be ďTougeĒ or one of its successors. I attended one of their events approximately one time and it contained the worst driving standards Iíve ever seen. It was wet so every driver was spinning off.

Frond
Mar 12, 2018


KillHour posted:

TMP is the closest track to me and I went there precisely once. The only time you would see me on that track is if I had the whole place to myself. And even then, I don't trust their emergency response.

CSCS and OTA run good events there if you donít mind paying more.

TrueChaos
Nov 14, 2006




NitroSpazzz posted:

I just want to know what organization so I can never ever run with them. People ask me why I'm always nervous running with new groups...that's why.

That event was run directly by the track.

They have one guy who's the only marshal, group assigner, waiver checker, tech inspector, tow truck driver, fire fighter, drivers meeting conductor (hint - this never happens!) and apparently boxing referee. He also doesn't have the authority to kick someone out.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

TrueChaos posted:

That event was run directly by the track.

They have one guy who's the only marshal, group assigner, waiver checker, tech inspector, tow truck driver, fire fighter, drivers meeting conductor (hint - this never happens!) and apparently boxing referee. He also doesn't have the authority to kick someone out.

"wow, a perfect track day"

Crustashio
Jul 27, 2000

ruh roh

Ah, TMP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vreUlIu3-x4

I've heard so many stories about the lapping days some orgs run in ontario. No marshals, no rescue, no helmets, no licensing, etc. I'm pretty happy about how we run things in NS, at least for our local orgs track days. Licensing and time with an instructor required. And we will not hesitate to black flag and sometimes end someone's day.

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jonathan
Jul 3, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 30 days!


The track I want to run at requires a membership. $60k I think is the membership, plus event fee. Plus school fee. Luckily my friend already has the membership and he can bring guests on. But atleast with that membership fee they can actually afford a dedicated EMS unit.

https://www.area27.ca/



Edit: LOL at people just jumping the wall and random drivers just getting out of their cars.

jonathan fucked around with this message at 01:09 on May 23, 2020

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