Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«3 »
  • Post
  • Reply
kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



I've only been only to 2 track days, but had extensive seat time at Bondurant Driving School in Phoenix. Shaking Bob Bondurant's hand was worth at least one level up in run group. Jk. A few comments on that --
- even if you paid a lot of cash for the privilege, it's so much easier to abuse someone else's car. I found it so much easier to full-throttle track a car out to a wall or a rough rumblestrip when I wasn't concerned about damaging the car. It's weird -- damaging the car would likely damage me, but I never thought of it like that.
- seat time is crucial, but continuous seat time is even better. Over 3 days, I must have had about 10 20-min sessions in their trainer Vettes. That really helps you learn the ins and outs of the track surface, which is one component to being fast.
- being harnessed into a real race seat over a bad seat doubles or triples the feel and feedback you get from the car. I really don't want to go back out on track in the Z06 without a better set and at least a 4-pt. It's not fun to try to reign in that much torque without more feel. The steering is already pretty dead.
- tires. The Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s that the trainers were on were a very good tire. They had great grip and a non-deceptive progression to the limit. In contrast, the Goodyear Eagle F1 runflats got greasy and broke with less warning.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Admirable Gusto posted:

If anyone's considering a HPDE day, my advice is to please please point people by as often as you can. If you can see them in your mirrors, they are generally faster than you (even if they're down by 200hp). You are much better off following them for a bit and observing their line.

1) For beginners, check as frequently as you can manage safely. If you feel ilke you're holding up, ask your instructor to help you check. Checking every 10s might hurt your ability to focus.

2) Don't target fixate on cars leading you. You need to keep running through the list of braking, apex, trackout points. Staring at a car ahead of you can lead to driving suboptimal lines.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Seat Safety Switch posted:

The thing to remember: at rallycross, cheap is fast. If you can't risk pirouetting it into a snowbank, you can't win. Ride height, tires and soft suspension help a lot too.

Since he mentioned Danish, I assume he's talking about European rallycross, which is wheel to wheel. But that format at the lower levels seems to be even more banging than American rallyx.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



jamal posted:

So a good start before a track day on an average sedan is to crank the front alignment to max negative camber to keep the tread flatter on the ground while cornering.

Don't some cars have pretty good camber gain under load?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



jamal posted:

Yes, some cars, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head that wouldn't benefit from more front camber, and there are very few cars that will let you get even to -2 degrees with the stock adjustment if there is any at all. Double wishbones and multilink suspensions will usually not need as much camber as struts.

My C6 Z06 is maxed at the stock -1.5 in the front, but of the available -1.8 in the rear, my alignment guy, who does racing himself, only set it to -1.3. He said Vettes don't need as much camber in the rear. Most of my wear is at the insides of the rear tires, with the fronts being very evenly worn. I guess that's the effect of mostly street driving and not enough track driving?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



blk96gt posted:

Anyone have a recommendation for a good portable air compressor to bring to the track?

You mean powered off the 12V socket? Any old $20 Chinese one will work. I've never heard anyone complain that theirs died prematurely.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Not enough braking into 11? What tires are those?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



nm posted:

You could do all that, or you could just get better brake pads.

I don't think we can ever get consensus on this. I want some buff mag to spend days testing and gathering data for all the pads that people talk up. On different classes of cars, against different tires, etc.

e: are pads generally open/free in spec series?

kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jul 6, 2012

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Bondurant is having a summer sale:

e: the $/hr for seat time isn't the cheapest, but it is contiguous, which helps you gel stuff.
I'm taking a close look at:
http://www.bondurant.com/courses/advanced-road-racing

kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 6, 2012

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



IOwnCalculus posted:

Also, I wonder just how bad of an idea tracking a Mazda2 would be. Can't imagine the consumables would cost any more than they do for a Miata.

Hopefully B-spec will stick around enough for people to comment on how well the cars hold up.

c355n4 posted:

Question for the rest of you. Do you ever practice getting out of your car quickly? Start fully strapped in with helmet on and so forth.

I used to do this in my caged Group 2 Focus when I was aspiring to be a rally driver. I realized I got really overly specific about where I was grabbing the A-pillar bar help launch myself out of the seat and car.


Last track day, my motel didn't have my reservation so I drove the rest of the way to the track and tried to sleep in the car. Didn't work so hot and did the day with 2 hours sleep and tons of caffeine. I told myself the moment I felt too off, I would stop. It was ok, but I definitely don't plan on doing it again.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



A lot of onboard footage I see has some sort of auto-swiping cleanup feature. Like if bugs splatter the shield over the camera, the shield seems to rotate and move to fresh screen. How does that work?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Holy drat, that Viper is fast.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Aurune posted:

If it makes you feel better, I don't think it matters as long as the right thing happens. Hurley Haywood and Daniel Eastman where both teaching heal-toe at PSDS when I was there. They don't agree on how to do it. Daniel teaches the rotate foot, roll method much like Senna. Hurley likes to move his foot to the brake and then kick the gas (like this http://youtube.com/watch?v=REcvGkYC1iI).

I tried both, and found I can't do it Hurley's way. Since coming back I've been heel-toeing freeway off ramps. Getting better, but it's not easy.

I find it really hard to be hitting the gas that deep on the heel if it's not floor hinged. In fact, I think a floor hinged gas pedal makes heel-toe a lot easier, cuz you're bound to hit something, whereas your target with a top-hinged pedal is usually smaller.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



SlapActionJackson posted:

Practising on the street is a great idea with one caveat: You're braking a lot harder on the track (or should be, anyway), So make sure your're able to adjust for the lower brake pedal when it comes time to do it on the track.

Another good thing about slower cars -- their weaker brakes mean you can generally go deeper into them on the street.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



drgitlin posted:

Don't ever let anyone tell you 24 hour racing isn't hard.

Who says that?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



At some point, I'm gonna have to get new tires for the Z06. The current F1 Supercar runflats are merely adequate on the track. The other thing that stood out to me during HPDE was how sloppy the seats were. If I were to go to aftermarket seats, with the intent of at most doing track days with the car, is there anything wrong getting reclinable seats? I was looking at something like this:
http://www.soloperformance.com/Corb...eat_p_1347.html

I don't know anything -- I know I probably have to get seat brackets, but I want to what to expect with:
- in-seat airbags
- reversibility
- strength/tradeoffs of reclinable vs fixed back.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



I swapped the C5 for a C6Z. The C6 Z06 seats are pretttty flat:
http://image.motortrend.com/f/30507878%2Bw786%2Bar1/2011-chevrolet-corvette-z06-interior.jpg

Phone posted:

If you're getting seats, you should be getting harnesses as well. Safety is one of those areas that shouldn't have compromise.

As I see it, safety is not substantially worse than my stock seats with shoulder belt. Yes, there is the loss of airbags.

j3rkstore posted:

You should be able to find reclining seats that hold you in place better.
That's primarily what I'm looking for -- more hip support than the C6's. Having more bucketing closer to the hip would be good, though. Are these kind of seats (either fixed or reclinable) not compatible with standard belts?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



blk96gt posted:

I have heard the Angel Pads work well in the Corvettes to help keep your hips from sliding around. Don't have any first hand experience with them though. It's definitely cheaper than a seat/harness set-up.

http://angelwingstech.com/store/

Interesting. Maybe I should just make some foam wedges myself.

grover posted:

Yeah, it's not a good idea to harness yourself nice and immobile in a race seat sans cage, lest your spine become a supplementary B-piller in a rollover.

I want to make sure I get this right -- installing an aftermarket seat with existing shoulder+lap belt is not safe? I get that it's not as safe as a rollbar + harness, but, properly installed, is it structurally worse than the stock seat?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



It has a track "marketplace," right?
Where other people have defined track positions on GPS?

I got the sense that you could start driving without any map and that it could infer lapping, but that having a track reference set up would be better.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



How do you guys feel out the effects of suspension setting changes? I remember before I took the vette to its first track day, I went to a shop where the mechanics were racers and asked for an alignment that'd be aggressive for the street but slightly better for track driving.

Driving from the shop, at normal street speeds, I could only pick up a tiny amount of difference in behavior, despite quite a few corrections to toe. If I don't have a data acquisition system and I don't drive all the same corners (like at a track) all the time, how hard do I have to drive a car to pick up on the effects of changes in settings? Put another way, does having lots of experience make you more sensitive?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



GreaseGunner posted:

Don't really know if anyone is interested in this but I think it seems pretty cool. Rally School in Austin, Tx. Apparently the guy that runs it is supposed to be well known in the Rally America series.

Looks pretty legit, especially the start-with-FWD philosophy and endorsement of Wyatt Knox of Team O'Neil in NH.
Corn is friends with Eintier.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Are there cups/pockets with water on the trunk lid of the GTR?
http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planete...deo_review.html

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Does it have to be RWD?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



What's your initial budget?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Which brake pads should I check out for my 2008 Z06? I haven't been able to sell it on its old pads and tires, so I'm gonna refresh it for the spring and either drive it or try selling again.
I've taken it to one track day and abhorred the F1 Supercar EMTs on it now. I've definitely settled on Michelin Pilot Super Sports for the tires.

Haven't picked a brake pad yet. I'm not looking for a race pad, but I don't mind decreased performance until the pad is heated up. Something that holds up well at a occasional track day and doesn't have huge amounts of dust would be great. I have black wheels that I get cleaned frequently, so I'm probably still less averse to dust than others.

Having been hypnotized by the ads in the last few Grassroots Motorsports issues, I was thinking StopTech. But would like to hear what others say. FWIW, the Z06 weighs around 3,200 lbs.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



drat, those are expensive, but they look tempting. I couldn't find OEM fitting pads from Ferodo or StopTech. Tirerack's StopTech pads seem to be only for base C6s.
I still haven't manned up to getting sports seats, so I could pony up more for these CLs. I wish more places did brake pad comparos like they do for tires.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Tirerack has fewer than 2 (or 1 or 0) Michelin PSS in 325/30/19. PSS supply must be dwindling. Michelin not going to put out another batch til May, which according to my shop is not a reliable estimate.

Should I go up to 345? It seems like a lot of extra tire for the rear. The alternative is +$140 from a local shop.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Blooot posted:

Octopus Magic -- with Lemons/Chump you spread those expenses (and work on the car) out over a number of people who all get a bunch of seat time.

I think OM was saying that the $500 limit on value of car itself is too low. That he'd rather pay more in that area and get a nicer car to drive.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Remember how there was only 1 325 section Pilot Super Sport left at Tirerack, and the local shop was gonna charge me $160 extra? I cheaped out and got 345 sections, which were actually cheaper than 325s on TR somehow, and which people report fitting just fine. How much difference will I feel on the track?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



grover posted:

What size wheels? Is it still within Michelin's spec for the tire? If they're not pinched too bad, will probably increase rear grip a slight bit and shift balance a bit towards understeer, but you can compensate somewhat with tire pressures if you feel the need. Or adjust your swaybars/dampers. (does Z06 have adjustable sway bars or shocks?)

C6 Z06s don't have adjustable shocks. The rear wheel is 19x12, and according to my shop, its tire width range just barely covers a 345. People haven't reported issues with running the 345, but CorvetteForum tends toward street driving, I think. Handing pumping a 325 is already a huge chore (my left tires have both developed 1psi/week leaks). 345 is gonna be ridiculous.

A big Corvetter racer noted in the latest issue of GRM that he actually runs square tires on his track C5, saying he is happy with infinite front grip and working the rear as needed. When I last tracked my Z06, I had it on the aggressive end of the factory alignment settings. The power oversteer is available and easy, but you run up quickly to oversteer. I had to catch it quite a few times powering out of tighter turns in 2nd or even 3rd. I partly blame the poo poo F1 Supercar EMTs.

Sidenote: that's one thing I liked about the ZL1. It was pretty neutral, maybe less understeery than the Z06? But what I liked was that the rear end was much more progressive in its approach to oversteer. I felt like I had more "safe band" to play with before the rear would let go, whereas in the Z06 it always feels like an ever-present danger.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



VanNuys posted:

Is this the place to post/talk about Rallycross? I really want to try it, I've never had the luck to do a proper track day or even autocross.

Autocross thread is probably best for rules/day-of organization.
We lost the rally thread, so maybe here for technique or prep, since rallyx is tougher on a car (suspension and bodywise) than autox.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Octopus Magic posted:

Anyone going to be at NHMS June 1st/2nd with COM?

When's signup? I'm thinking about doing something since I got the PSS put on and haven't been able to sell the car.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



How much is 5oz of weight? I'm thinking of buying a new full face helmet, and going by this list:
http://www.racinghelmetguide.com/au...et-weights.html
I could get a $350 carbon fiber helmet or a $300 fiberglass HJC.
I could also get a Pyrotect that's only 3oz heavier, but people seem to think HJCs are well made.

I wear headgear for kickboxing, and a few ounces is very noticeable but only because headgear is typically less than a pound.

And anyone know how much the bottom of the barrel Bell helmet weighs?:
http://www.saferacer.com/bell-sport...o-racing-helmet

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Aurune posted:

Remember you are talking about g-force here. Five ounces at 1.5 Gs (pretty normal in karting, bit high for a street car) is actually half a pound of weight extra wrenching on your neck.

5 oz at 1.5 lateral Gs is ~1lb force laterally.

I find it strange that even into the several hundred dollar range, nothing seems to break sub 3lbs. Overall, I'm really disappointed by the lack of detailed weight information for helmets.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Jamal recommended the CL RC5+ for me. They have great feel, but drat they squeak like hell after a rain.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



What speeds do you get to at NHMS and what at Lime Rock?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



c355n4 posted:

I've realized that the people who don't give pointbys are often very, very focused on just trying to get around the track. (Also part of the reason they are slow). A sort of sensory overload. There is a lot of stuff happening on track. You're trying to drive fast, you have corner workers with flags, other cars, etc.

Yeah, this happened to me when I had my first Z06 track day on way too little sleep. My helmet was really sticky against the headrest, which was incredibly distracting trying to turn my head to plan through corners. I'd check the mirror every several seconds and there'd always be a car back there.

Or they're just big-egoed dicks who can't be beat. When I rode along during an instructor session, my car got held up by a guy who was doing everything he could to not point by.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



G-Mach posted:

From what I've seen and heard a lot of the wheel to wheel guys haven't done a lot of AutoX and/or look down on it which I think is a mistake.

The kind of car control needed is different between track and autox. There are wrong reasons to look down on autocross, but past a few autocrosses, you'd be pretty much primed for getting your education on track.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Voltage posted:

I only got in 3 ~35 second runs at my last autoX, it was fun but holy poo poo what a major waste of time most of the day was. Just waiting and organizing and setting up and working the track and helping on the 'grid' all for less than 2 minutes of wheel time.

Holy cow. I hope it was only $20.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



First of two days at NMHS, running the South Oval configuration. I've never done it before, and the Gs on the oval were intimidating. Both to my sense of safety and because of the LS7's reputation for popping under sustained left turns.

Saw Octopus Magic in his Talon:

He was pretty happy to be driving it. Though it wasn't trouble free. Not yet.

Took the front plate and bracket off. This made a huge difference in my coolant temps, and maybe brake cooling.


Cool rides:

This wailed like a Banshee. You knew when a rotary was on track -- it was one of the top 3 loudest cars, along with some prepped E46 M3 and a straight-pipe NA Miata, which you can see in the back in black/orange/white:

Yeah, there were tons of Miatas. I've previously run at NHMS with BMWCCA, so I'm not used to it.

One of the cars in my run group, and in my car class:

The class instructor had GoPro on his car and was filming the track and students on it. He caught the 911 braking too unsmoothly and sliding at the slowest turn.

It's hard to appreciate how small Formula Vee cars are. I shot this one side by side as best I could with the 350Z. It's like a little kayak:


A less than pristine E30 M3:


Some tube chassis car with "434ci" on the induction cowl:


Not tracked. I just like the new Z4s:


Can you name them? I wonder where he got an NHMS sticker:



How real men get their Miatas to the racetrack:


The guy who ran this operation loaned me his painter's tape:

You can see the clouds. It started out threatening rain in the morning, but got sunny after lunch. Thank god.


Some driving notes:
- last time I was here, I was on 2 hours of sleep. I was way better focused this time, but still couldn't go 10/10 for fear of messing up my car.
- the CL RC5+ pads jamal recommended paid off. Very linear and easy to use. No fade. Finally proved their worth after squeaking like hell driving on the street.
- in general, I love the Michelin PSS. Tons of grip. But I got 345s in the rear instead of factory 325, because Tirerack was out at the time and the 345 were much cheaper than locally sourcing 325. I'm not happy with how the rears hook up when I give higher levels of throttle. My best description would be that they provide less progressive, jumpier power oversteer. They want to understeer at first cuz of the width, and then jump out sideways less predictably. I didn't dare go under 3rd gear. In the oval, they picked up a lot of clag and scrabbled disconcertingly.
- with the front plate off, my coolant temp never went over 210, compared to cresting 270 last year. I suspect the correct air flow also helped cool the brakes.
- I don't know how kill me now was getting away with lowering his Grand Sport. Any of the more abrupt elevation changes scraped the air dam hard and used up most of the front suspension. I get what people say when they talk about the inherent compromise of driving production cars on the track -- their suspension will always be too soft and make you feel wallowy in some fast transitions.
- I had 3 trouble spots on the track:
1) braking too early before turn #3, the hairpin. The waves in the road set off my ABS if I come in braking hard, and it's distracting. I got the worst grading on braking consistency
2) the "bowl" -- my brain faded and I stopped being able to nail both apexes on a single steering input. I didn't adjust properly for carrying more speed (as the day went on, traffic spread out better and I never had anyone in front of me). I sorta got it back, but not happy.
3) entering the South Oval. By the end of the day, I was back to 105+ toward the end of the front straight, but as soon as I got up to the Oval, I'd chicken out and drag brakes to get down to 90. At Bondurant, I'd dealt with way bumpier high speed turns, but I was harnessed into a racing seat and knew exactly what was going on.
- these stock seats . On the oval, even when I got the hang of it and was comfortable, I'd still be thrown out over the center console. Similarly, on the hairpin, I'd have to brace against the door to stay behind the wheel. Coming out of the hairpin in one session, POP, the seatback collapses on the left side. The dynamics were such that I didn't pull the wheel at all and didn't bobble the car, but it was scary. It's just how the seats are made; after futzing with it in the paddock, I got it normal again.
- I talked to a guy also driving an '08 Z06. He'd upgraded to racing seats and harnesses, and it was not. cheap. I think if I want to improve in this car, I have to get better seats. Otherwise, I'm just getting thrown around and losing contact with the car.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«3 »