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FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Talk about HPDEs, Chumpcar, Lemons, "real" racing, time trials whatever you want as long as it's full speed on a paved track.

Might as well provide some info for people who are thinking about getting on track. Racers should be able to figure it out for themselves.

HPDEs

HPDE stands for High Performance Drivers Education. It's a series of levels to train drivers who have never been on a track or driven their car in a performance setting into competent fast drivers.

Green group
While the colors and names vary every club has a place where they stick the first timers. Green group is generally getting everyone used to being on a racing surface. Teaching the very basics of car dynamics and what happens when you give inputs, and what to do when your inputs don't go so well. The pace of the group is very slow from the perspective of experienced drivers, and terrifying fast from the perspective of new drivers. Generally you only stay in green group for a handful of events before getting promoted up.

Yellow group
Basically still green group but for people who have moved up in speed a bit and have proven that they can get their car around the course without putting their instructor and themselves in danger. You're pushed to begin to pick up speed as well as to stop the common newbie mistakes. Brake zones are shortened, threshold breaking is taught but braking is still largely done in a straight line. The instructors start to force you to use the whole track and turn in points are adjusted to allow you to pick up some speed in the turns.


Blue group/Advanced group
And here's where they teach you the good stuff. Blue group is where you're expected to pick up a lot of speed and begin to drive the track the actual proper way. The lines between braking and turning blur and you're expected to push the car near it's limit.

Red group/Solo group
At this point you've learned as much as you can, or are willing to, from an in-car instructor and are turned loose on the track. You aren't usually given an instructor, if you are the expectation is that you won't need the instructor in the car for every session during the event. This is the end game for the student portion of HPDEs, the next step from here is to become an instructor and teach the new drivers your experiences enter events for free. I've heard that Solo students still occasionally ask for instructors but I haven't made it that far yet.

Instructor group
The instructors get to go out and play with each other while scaring their students in their cars for a change.

Getting solo'd

Depending on the club you may be able to be solo'd by your instructor. This means that you are allowed on the track by yourself. It generally means that you have proven yourself competent to your instructor and he trusts his reputation on the fact that you won't make an rear end of yourself. This is usually a per track day/weekend thing, so the next time you hit the track you'll have to prove your competence again.


I've never done this before how do I start

* You need a car with a vague attempt of sporting intentions. No SUVs, trucks, vans, etc. Don't worry if your car isn't a "fast" car. I've seen plenty of normal to out right slow cars signed up for track days. If you're just starting out don't worry too much about your car. I've seen Beetles, Mazda 2s, Civics, Integras, Cobalts and a `59 Bel Air all running around the track. Also I've seen an absolute shitton of BMWs, Corvettes, Miatas, Porches and Mustangs.

Ok I have a car I can use, how do I find events

http://http://www.motorsportreg.com

Select "Driver school" and search. Don't worry if you see an event by BMW Car Club of America or Porsche Club of America. Neither cares what kind of car you bring. However if you plan on running multiple events take a look into how much a membership costs, the track day costs are almost always reduced for members. There are a large amount of clubs that run track days, a lot of them are regional. If you're unsure about one of them then ask on here, there is a good chance someone has experience with them.

I've run with THSCC, Asphalt Ventures and BMWCCA (Tarheel chapter) and can recommend all of them highly.

What do I need to do to prepare my car?

Other than making sure that it is in good mechanical condition, replace worn suspension components, up to date on oil and other fluids (differential, transmission), you'll want to make sure that your cooling system is running at top performance.

The only change that you really should make to your car for running it on the track is to buy a set of track oriented brake pads. If you have a *light* car you can possibly squeak by with an autocross oriented pad but I wouldn't recommend it. The only thing you'll be required to do is change your brake fluid 90 days or less before the event.

The first event I did I ran with a set of Hawk HP+s on a Miata, it got me through the day but by the end of sessions I would have to STAND on the brake pedal to get the car to stop. I changed out my HP+s for a set of Hawk HT-10s and it is a night and day difference.

Before you sign up for an event take a look at their website, almost all reputable clubs should have tech information that will tell you exactly what they expect to be checked on your car before the event. In my experience so far most clubs will expect you to have your car checked out at least once a year by a mechanic. Most performance oriented shops should be able to give your car a "track inspection" for $10-20, clubs are generally affiliated with certain local mechanics who will give cheap inspections for the clubs they sponsor.

What do I need to prepare myself?
Usually the only safety gear you need is a helmet. SA2005 or newer for the most part, many clubs will also accept M rated helmets. If you're just trying it out and don't want to buy a helmet e-mail the club and see if you can get a loaner from them.

If you've never driven your car hard go and do an autocross. It'll give you an idea as to what you can do in a car. Ride along with people get a feel for how hard a car can actually turn and brake. You certainly don't have to but I feel autocross provides good experience to certain aspects of driving that are hard to practice on track.

I have a convertible

You need a roll bar, 4 points attached to the body of the vehicle or better. Some clubs may allow you on without one but you'd be foolish to go out with out proper rollover protection. If your car doesn't have a top, or only has a soft top you may be asked to wear arm restraints. Check with the club you are running with if loaners are available before buying some.

I'll make another post later with some information about what I drive and do. The short of it is I'm a blue student that runs VIR and CMP and races in Chumpcar.

FatCow fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jun 13, 2012

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FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Sadi posted:

That said im looking at a roll bar for the miata now. Any one have opinions about which to go for? I was thinking a Hard Dog M1 hard top with x brace.

The only thing I'd worry about with the X brace is the note on the bottom "* Our Bolt-In Harness Bar must be used for harness attachment with the X Brace Diagonals" If you end up putting a 5/6/7 point harness in the car not everyone accepts bolt-in bars as appropriate harness mounts. They want a bar that is integral to the cage/roll bar.

If it's a car you drive on the street I'd recommend the M1 hard top double diagonal since it actually lets you see out the rear view mirror, if that isn't important the single diagonal works just as well. The single diagonal hard top is the one in my car.

Here is my chariot as it currently sits. I'm currently in the middle of wrapping it in vinyl. I'll be at CMP this weekend with THSCC if anyone else happens to be there. Feel free to bug myself or my wife if you are. The car is a fairly beat up 1997 Miata sitting on re-valved Bilstein stocks and 600/375lb springs. The motor in it is out of a 2005 Miata.



As far as consumables you really can't beat the Miata. I've done 9 weekends with the car and the wife has done 2 with it. Still has the first set of track tires on it with about 40% tread remaining and the first set of track pads on it with about 30% remaining on the fronts, rears are basically new looking.

Here was my last time at CMP with some data logging stuff I was playing around with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OJNnvs8Wz4

And a VIR video with some other data logging. I may have been doing off-line exercises with my instructor during this session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7yYtAkECvA

FatCow fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jun 14, 2012

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Dr JonboyG posted:

Thought about Chumpcar? More than one driver means shared costs.

It costs me about the same as a DE in $/Hr to be mid-pack in a Chumpcar team.

c355n4 posted:

What do you consider a good day?

Car gets on its trailer under its own power and I don't have to open the motor when I get home.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


The Locator posted:

This is also a great idea if you are buying an SA rated helmet for the first time as compared to an M rated helmet. They fit very differently. An SA rated "Medium" is not the same as an M rated "Medium".

Also sizes between brands are pretty much incomparable. Much like shirts every manufacturer pads their helmets slightly differently.

Also R-Comps won't destroy your car, but you also won't learn anything on them as a novice since you'll only push them when you make a mistake, and since you're going so slow you won't be punished for the mistake since the tire will have enough grip to compensate for it. Increased ball joint and wheel bearing wear is the common result of stickier tires, nothing that troublesome.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


I just bring a small 5gal tank and fill it up from the track's air.

What is everyone using for data Acq? Racepak looked interesting to me initially since it is set up to be a dash replacement as well as data acq but I'm not seeing good things about its software. Trackmate seems better on the software/widespread usage side but it really isn't set up to be a dash replacement.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


That's not really a dash replacement.

There is no way to show oil pressure/water temp/oil temp on the main screen or to show RPMs on the screen that shows the sensor inputs.


http://www.racepak.com/IQ3Dash.php

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


IOwnCalculus posted:

I figured you'd sold that car when you got the 2. Glad to see I was wrong.

Also, I wonder just how bad of an idea tracking a Mazda2 would be. Can't imagine the consumables would cost any more than they do for a Miata.

Bad, it's a slow car. Like slow when compared to green group slow.

Get another Miata, bolt a race seat to the floor and put in a normal roll bar.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Empty your bowels beforehand. Lots of lights and angle them out to find apexes. Turn your mirrors away from your face, they are useless except to completely blind you. Also if you're doing Chump/Lemons get the HID lights or just sit out the night.

Everything looks like this:


Until it looks like this:

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Something I realized when starting out. Low HP cars are comparatively faster the slower the run group. The fancy guys with their S2ks, Corvettes and M cars are afraid to actually use the power they have. It's easy to mat it on corner exit when you only have 100hp. My Miata used to eat poo poo up in Green/Yellow groups, now I'll either see no-one or just get passed.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


The biggest problem with those seats is that they don't appear to have a hole for sub belts. I'm not sure if there will be a significant improvement in seat feel with just a "racing style" seat and no harness. The side and leg bolstering on there isn't very significant compared to a FIA rated bucket.


vs

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Not if they have a FIA sticker on them too.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


kimbo305 posted:

I want to make sure I get this right -- installing an aftermarket seat with existing shoulder+lap belt is not safe? I get that it's not as safe as a rollbar + harness, but, properly installed, is it structurally worse than the stock seat?

I wouldn't call it unsafe but it's not going to be significantly safer or any safer than the OEM configuration. The risk is that with a proper harness and no additional rollover protection you won't be able to lean into the center of the car during a rollover while the outer edges of the car crush.

I still have the DOT seat belts in my car for when I take passengers at autocross events. I'm able to feed the DOT belt in through the holes in the side of the seat and they tighten down even on my skinny rear end. Something to watch out though for is the mounting of your seat belt with an aftermarket seat if your seat belt receiver attaches to the seat or seat rails rather than the chassis. I had to change the mount point of my receivers because they mount to the seat in OEM configuration. I'd try the CG lock, I used one before I went full seats/harnesses and they do work pretty well.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


I run a 225 Hankook Z214 on a 15x9 and it's a bit stretched. The rim is what lays on the ground but just barely.

What's everyone's plans for the winter? I need to figure out my horrific miss and might actually finish vinyl wrapping the car. Some other minor things like adding a real oil pressure gauge and possibly data acq might happen if I can fix the miss somewhat early.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


I've made it back on this motor:

x4

And this clutch (separate events)



I figured I used up a lifetime of luck and now tow.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Sadi posted:

More than I paid for my car.

Wait, that's a bad thing? ....poo poo

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


I managed to break my tow vehicle and haven't even begun to work on the Miata. Season starts in about a month.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


SNiPER_Magnum posted:

I was just hoping for cheap tires, then buy a dozen.
For some reason, the new tires are neglecting my 245/45-17 size. ZIIs got it, RS-3s don't, Rivals won't, don't know about Bridgestone's next but at $250 each for RE-11s I think it might be worth it to just get a spec tire. ARGH

Not tracking the e30? That's one of the big reasons that I gave up on the GTO for performance driving duty, there just wasn't anywhere near the support for it as there was for the Miata.

I do miss the hell out of the power though.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Then you get out of the novice groups.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Throw some proper track pads on it, flush the brake fluid and go to town. Maybe do some other regular maintenance fluids if they are close to their normal change intervals (tranny/diff/oil/etc).

Who cares about camber if your goal is to just burn the tires up. You'll kill the outside edges of the fronts, swap em to the rear 1/2 way through and run em till they cord. If you cared about going as fast as possible or getting your money's worth out of tires then go and fix the geometry. But since you only intend on tracking this thing once just do the brakes and go.

Laffo on <$100 pads. Even pads for a Miata are ~$200 a set.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


ATTN NC racers. Our club's resident insurance agent posted this to our forums. Cross posting it here. Guess Texans are unique now in being covered.

I'm not an agent, blah, blah, consult your own agent before taking this as true.

quote:

Well, the free ride is over, there has never been an exclusion on the NC auto policy for racing, etc. but one has been put in under the cover of darkness.
here is the actual endorsement:

The North Carolina Rate Bureau [the means this is in all policies in NC-******] revised the Amendatory Endorsement by adding a Racing Exclusion to the Liability Coverage, Medical Payments Coverage and Coverage for Damage to Your Auto sections of the policy. The Amendatory Endorsement, NC0013 (Ed. 4/12), amends the Personal Auto Policy, NC0001 (Ed. 6/05). This change applies to policies effective 10/1/2012 and after.

Part A Liability Coverage

Liability Exclusion B.3. is being added to exclude liability coverage in excess of the minimum limits required by the financial responsibility law of North Carolina for damages arising out of any prearranged, organized or spontaneous racing contest, speed contest, demolition, stunt activity or competitive driving event (including any practice or preparation for such an event). The exclusion also excludes liability coverage in excess of the minimum limits required by the financial responsibility law of North Carolina for damages arising out of the use of a vehicle at any facility designed for racing or high performance driving, unless it is being used for purposes other than high speed or high performance driving.

Part B Medical Payments Coverage

Medical Payments Coverage Exclusion 12. is being added to exclude medical payments coverage for damages while occupying any vehicle that is participating in any prearranged, organized or spontaneous racing contest, speed contest, demolition, stunt activity or competitive driving event (including any practice or preparation for such an event). The exclusion also excludes medical payment coverage arising out of the use of a vehicle at any facility designed for racing or high performance driving, unless it is being used for purposes other than high speed or high performance driving.

Part D Coverage For Damage To Your Auto

Coverage for Damage To Your Auto, Exclusion 14., is being added to exclude damages while occupying any owned or non-owned auto arising out of any prearranged, organized or spontaneous racing contest, speed contest, demolition, stunt activity or competitive driving event (including any practice or preparation for such an event). The exclusion also excludes damages arising out of the use of any vehicle at any facility designed for racing or high performance driving, unless it is being used for purposes other than high speed or high performance driving.

The Amendatory Endorsement NC0013 (Ed. 4/12) and the stuffer that explains the changes to the Policyholder, UF-4841 (Ed. 10/12), are available on Forms-On-Demand.

What does that all mean?

Part A- if someone makes a claim against you the company only has to pay the minium limits of 30k per person or 60k per accident for Bodily injury or 25k for Physical damage.

Part B & D. No coverage for you or your car.

As far as I know this hasn't been tested in court which will show how it finally shakes out. Does an Autocross come under the definition of a speed contest. I DON'T KNOW. What about a driving school? I DON'T KNOW.

IN MY OPINION: The greatest risk you face is running over a kid in the paddock, by the letter of this endorsement that kid can only receive 30k for their injury. I would be suprised if a company would deny coverage based on this exclusion. Other damage, they might. I have always told my clients: If you have an incident at the track the company will pay and then probably cancel (I say that for all companies) Now I don't know if they will pay.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Phone posted:

Pit stops are hard to execute if you don't have a plan. In Chump you can fuel and do a driver swap at the same time, but you can't work on the car.

So a pit stop with gas would look like this:
0. Car radios that they're coming in
1. Car stops and turns off
2a. Driver gets out of the car
2b. Fueler and next driver hop over the pit wall; next driver has the fire extinguisher
3. When driver is out of the car, he takes the extinguisher from the next driver; next driver starts to get into the car
4. When fueling is done: any maintenance checks can be done by additional hands, previous driver helps next driver with belts and whatnot, and a radio check
5. Go back out there


Next driver can get in the car while fueling.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Dave Inc. posted:

I really haven't looked at it much yet, and I was probably going to look to the cage installer for a hand on picking one out (they race 944 spec as well). For the seat I'm probably looking somewhere between $500 and $1000.

I'm involving the cage installer really because the car's floor pan took a hit back in the day and warped the seat mounting positions (and I wouldn't trust the remaining bolts to hold anything in place).

Are you looking for a halo seat or a regular seat?

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


No but you should, the HANS is designed to work with a halo seat, it does little for side to side movement. (And at least one of the tests said it made it worse) FWIW I use a HANS without a halo seat. Whenever I stop autocrossing this car I'll upgrade to a halo.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


SNiPER_Magnum posted:

If you are signed off for solo and the car meets tech, there isn't a reason you can't run it. I've seen people in Thunder Roadsters and Lotus 7s driving DE, not a huge step to a formula car from that.
Call your local director

Even if you're not signed off I've seen forumla cars in lower run groups doing lead/follow instruction.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Except the one that's relevant to HPDE.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod..._4%20levels.pdf

quote:

10.1.4. BRACING
A. It is recommended that braces be of the same size tubing as used for the roll bar itself.
B. All roll bars must be braced in a manner to prevent movement in a fore-and-aft direction with the brace attached within the top
one-third of the roll hoop, and at an angle of at least thirty degrees from vertical. It is strongly recommended that two suchbraces be used, parallel to the sides of the car, and placed at the outer extremities of the roll bar hoop. Such braces should extend to the rear whenever possible.
C. It is suggested that roll bars include a transverse brace from the bottom of the hoop on one side to the top of the hoop on the other side.

And if you wanted to do Track (Time) Trials with SCCA you need the diagonal brace either on the main hoop or on the braces.

quote:

A. Roll bar hoops must have two (2) fore/aft braces with tubing of dimensions at least equal to that required for the main hoop itself. Diagonal lateral bracing of equal dimension tubing must be installed to prevent lateral distortion of the hoop. (In most cases, a lateral brace from the bottom corner of the hoop on the side to the top corner of the hoop on the other side is sufficient). The following alternatives are permitted. Although installing the diagonal lateral brace in the main hoop is the strongest (and hence most preferable) alternative, there may be instances where such an installation is not practical. In such situations, the installation of the diagonal brace as shown in Figure 3 will be acceptable

FatCow fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Apr 25, 2013

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Sab669 posted:

Oh, no, definitely, I agree. But the gazebo just looks.......weird.

It fell down yesterday.

And the reason you only ever see pictures of it from the outside of Oak Tree turn is because it was not a healthy looking tree. A significant chunk of the tree previously fell off.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Does anyone happen to run TT with NASA SE or Mid-Atlantic? Have some questions on their format.

Also getting on track this weekend for the first time this year. I'm basically a virgin again it's been so long.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Crustashio posted:

Tell me about it. Here's a vid from my local track. Try to count all the cracks. It gets pretty rough on the back straight when you get up above 140kph. And yes, my lines are absolute poo poo.


You're paying for the whole track, use it!

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


I used to pick up brake pads at the guy's house. KNS was run out of his garage.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


The AC shuts off when you're at WOT so don't worry about that.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


BlackMK4 posted:

Blead the tires? You add air to have a lower hot pressure, removing air makes a higher hot pressure...

I want to hear how that all works.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


BlackMK4 posted:

I don't know if you're saying I'm full of poo poo or not. Unless bikes are different than cars then you're looking for a range of cold-hot pressure gain from cold to hot off the track psi - usually 5-7psi (and if you've got warmers you set the warmers 1-2psi lower than the hot pressure you want). If you have less cold PSI in the tire, then the tire flexes more, and will lead to a greater pressure gain as you're creating more heat in the carcass. Bleeding air would lead you to have less air in the thing, increasing tire flex, thus increasing tire pressure further. Too much pressure gain means the carcass is getting too hot leading to the tire melting and you get hot tear. Too little pressure gain means the outer carcass isn't reaching proper temp and you get cold tear.

Yeah, cars don't work anything like that. Higher cold pressure = higher hot pressure. Generally you set your cold pressure to a decent guess (or look at your historical data) on the first session then bleed them down to where you want your hot pressure to be after the first session. If the temps stay about the same through the day you're pretty much done. If it gets hotter you bleed off another PSI or two during the day to keep your hot temps about right.

The correct way is to do all of this with a tire pyrometer and not care about your tire pressure as long as the temps are even enough.

Crustashio posted:

http://www.essexparts.com/learning-...t/swapping_pads

Anyone ever try this method of swapping pads without swapping rotors? I'm lazy enough that carrying the drat rotors around and removing the caliper brackets makes it too much of a hassle for me. But if I can just swap the track pads on a few days before, then remove them a few days after, it'd be perfect.

And no, I don't care about brake dust on the wheels.

I just run Hawk HP+s for autocross and Hawk HT-10s for track. Hawk says you can swap pads within their product line without re-bedding. I've never had an issue swapping between them without changing the rotors.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


It's going to be 68/75* at VIR this weekend. Too bad it looks like this.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Dunlop ZIIs? The Star Specs were solid track tires.

But seriously, why aren't you getting RS3s or Rivals?

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Tarheel has also run first time student specials in the past as well.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


CG locks work pretty well. Not as good as a real harness, but significantly better than OEM 3 points.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


No one allows them at VIR or CMP either. 4 points are terrible ricer poo poo, end of story.


(exception for Schroth)

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Can you take some pictures of the harness? I'm having trouble picturing what is going on.

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Phone posted:

And you alternate with TYP200 so it's really obvious when you have a full bleed on your brake fluid: blue vs amber.

Has anyone actually gotten this to work? In my experience the blue dyes the lines and you never really get yellow again.

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FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


I like that while doing a buck 20 you decide that's a good time to fiddle with the button on the e-brake.

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