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Antigravitas
Dec 8, 2019

Outside Context Problem


Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:

that's a fantastic start, then a doomstack of 2000 yellow turbans magically appears next to your capital and attacks next turn.

That's exactly what just happened to me. What kind of chucklefuck designed this?

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MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Seconding backstabbing Yuan Shao. If you're playing 190 he will eventually do it you, it's just a matter of time before he kicks you from the alliance and attacks the turn after. Seen it happen so many games.

EDIT: It's a testament to the game that I'm still after so many hours of the game unsure about whether if it's a scripted action or simply s quirk of his AI personality.

Antigravitas posted:

That's exactly what just happened to me. What kind of chucklefuck designed this?

Had to try it out and yup, it's eery how easily it times with taking the port town despite being hardcoded. At least the retinues making up the stack are trash tier and break easily in manual.

MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 20:50 on May 9, 2020

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008


Antigravitas posted:

That's exactly what just happened to me. What kind of chucklefuck designed this?

History.

Deformed Church
May 12, 2012

bear-headed geese


Thanks for the advice, I've turned on Yuan Shao and it's going okay so far. I was worried about being a total fucker but now I think about it, that's pretty accurate to the source material.

ACValiant
Sep 7, 2005

"Life is not a song, sweetling.
Someday you may learn that, to your sorrow."

How do you guys make money as Zhang Yan? I'm destroying folks left and right with the ambushes but it doesn't seem like the bandit buildings will be bringing me in much income. I'm just hoping there's more prey every turn so I can make some money off of the army wins.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



ACValiant posted:

How do you guys make money as Zhang Yan? I'm destroying folks left and right with the ambushes but it doesn't seem like the bandit buildings will be bringing me in much income. I'm just hoping there's more prey every turn so I can make some money off of the army wins.

Eh?

Don't really know what to advice besides the obvious. The core of the bandit economy is:

1. Ignore everything not bandit earlygame
2. Distribute the loot and raise taxes judiciously
3. Black market the gently caress up

Zheng Jiang's commandery is one of the best in the game bandit or not so start with that. Zhang Yan's starting commandery is best forgotten or used for tech buildings.

ACValiant
Sep 7, 2005

"Life is not a song, sweetling.
Someday you may learn that, to your sorrow."

MiddleOne posted:

Eh?

Don't really know what to advice besides the obvious. The core of the bandit economy is:

1. Ignore everything not bandit earlygame
2. Distribute the loot and raise taxes judiciously
3. Black market the gently caress up

Zheng Jiang's commandery is one of the best in the game bandit or not so start with that. Zhang Yan's starting commandery is best forgotten or used for tech buildings.

I guess Iím just used to the warlord economyís. Trading and researching industry/commerce. I feel like Iím making chump change with the commanderries Iíve grabbed from the northern guys so far.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



ACValiant posted:

I guess Iím just used to the warlord economyís. Trading and researching industry/commerce. I feel like Iím making chump change with the commanderries Iíve grabbed from the northern guys so far.

It gets easier once you realize that both city size and buildings largely don't matter. With the bandit economy grabbing all of the ancillary territory is essential since the city is neither your breadwinner nor your synergy-machine. Of course, this also means that commanderries without good ancillary territories won't be generating much income. Such as the horse one just east.

alex314
Nov 22, 2007


I'm having the weirdest campaign as Cao Cao in Mandate start:
- I'm best buds with my neighbor Sun Jian, and after he fell Sun Ce. Including marriage of my heir and their princess.
- Had to rush west to stop Gong Du, or YT would probably win
- while in the process of fighting him within 2 turns Empress took power and got destroyed by Dong Zhuo, who didn't get declared by the rest of the world due to YT being a threat
- Liu Bei and Yuan Shao got destroyed by YT Bros
- only thing keeping me afloat are crazy non-aggression and military access pacts, for which others pay 1200-1600
- it seems like the surviving warlords rallied around Dong Zhuo, which desperately tries to stop YT
- that is except Kong Rong, who is holed in his place and Zheng Jiang who pillages her way through the empire.

I never had Yellow Turbans go so far, they have almost all of the land in north-east to the river. I also have high levels of fervour for some reason even without any neighbouring YT lands.

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

I am the real hero here.


So what do you guys think will be the next DLC?

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008


Azran posted:

So what do you guys think will be the next DLC?

Guado, Red Cliffs, Official forming of the Three Kingdoms or the Nanmen Campaigns.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!



i wonder if they're gonna explore the formation of the han empire at all or if a setting with little cavalry wouldnt be very fun

ninjahedgehog
Feb 17, 2011

It's time to kick the tires and light the fires, Big Bird.


There was a Reddit AMA a few weeks back that confirmed the Nanman as the next DLC: https://old.reddit.com/r/totalwar/c..._kingdoms_team/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At90Bn4bLT8

Meyers-Briggs Testicle
Aug 13, 2012

But without the hero, there is no Event.


Buglord

Verviticus posted:

i wonder if they're gonna explore the formation of the han empire at all or if a setting with little cavalry wouldnt be very fun

look at the timeline on the bottom of the campaign selector, theres room for 2 more dlcs between 194 and eight princes. my money is on

McTimmy posted:

Guado, Red Cliffs, Official forming of the Three Kingdoms or the Nanmen Campaigns.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Azran posted:

So what do you guys think will be the next DLC?

Whatever the date of Sun Quans ascendancy was. Probably along with updates for the numerous failsons that still only have generic character motifs.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!



is cao pi unique yet

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Yuan Tan and Yuan Shang desperately need QOL updates so that they can duke it out over who is the worst failson.

Blooming Brilliant
Jul 12, 2010



ninjahedgehog posted:

There was a Reddit AMA a few weeks back that confirmed the Nanman as the next DLC:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCGIZJiZo-U

Weird they're jumping so far ahead in the timeline, but I guess this is to stop everyone asking "when's Nanman?"

Edit: For those unaffiliated with the Nanman campaign, it's basically Romance mode on steroids; magic, rattan-armoured super troops, elephants and tigers, and Zhuge Liang's fire-breathing "juggernauts".

Do Warhammer and 3K use the same engine? Because it's convenient timing that they're adding War Lions to TW:W2, CA can re-use the skeleton/rigging for Nanman Tigers.

Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 12:06 on May 11, 2020

Captain Beans
Aug 5, 2004

Whar be the beans?

Hair Elf

It will be interesting to see how far they lean into the magic and craziness. I definitely could see elephants and chariots coming in but I think they might stop short of tigers.

lurksion
Mar 21, 2013



Ah the DW3 Nanman stage slogfest of poison puddles and ambushes everywhere and retracing the the entire map

Vichan
Oct 1, 2014

I'LL PUNISH YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR CRIME


Christ, the Dynasty Warriors 3 demo blew my mind back in the day. This song is ingrained into my brain.

Blooming Brilliant
Jul 12, 2010



https://www.warhammer-community.com...omepage-post-4/

Beginning to think it's pretty safe to say Kislev will be one of game three's starting races.

Edit: Wrong thread but still applies

Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 21:06 on May 11, 2020

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Spit it out, Georgy. Staging a coup here.



Interesting and annoying thing I just noticed - I'm playing through Yuan Shu's campaign for my second time in about a month (I found it strangely fun the first time around, even if he is a mincing little poo poo)...and for some reason, I can't buy the Imperial Seal off of Sun Jian anymore. Does anyone know if they just removed that with the latest update?

ACValiant posted:

I guess Iím just used to the warlord economyís. Trading and researching industry/commerce. I feel like Iím making chump change with the commanderries Iíve grabbed from the northern guys so far.

I feel you; I did Zhang Yan on hard recently, and didn't care for him that much. I found that I spent a LONG time desperately treading water to break even, just sacking settlements, selling whatever ancillaries I could spare, and not expanding all that much. At some point - I'm not sure when, exactly - things suddenly became quite a bit easier and I was able to expand. I think it must have been when I decided to sucker-punch Zheng Jiang. Probably should have done that earlier. MiddleOne is correct; her commandery is way more lucrative than Zhang's.

Majorian fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 11, 2020

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

Blooming Brilliant posted:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCGIZJiZo-U

Weird they're jumping so far ahead in the timeline, but I guess this is to stop everyone asking "when's Nanman?"

Edit: For those unaffiliated with the Nanman campaign, it's basically Romance mode on steroids; magic, rattan-armoured super troops, elephants and tigers, and Zhuge Liang's fire-breathing "juggernauts".

Do Warhammer and 3K use the same engine? Because it's convenient timing that they're adding War Lions to TW:W2, CA can re-use the skeleton/rigging for Nanman Tigers.

I don't think it's exactly the same but probably similar enough that things like models/animations can port across without much friction.

Communist Thoughts
Jan 7, 2008

0.000% of Communism has been built.
Evil, child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit eating grin.

All he has managed to do is make himself *sad*.

Instead of building communism, he now builds a precise model of this grotesque, duplicitous world.




Man I love DeI but I wish they wouldn't insist on a battle balance where nothing happens and nobody dies.

Last time round they patched the battles they made everything except shock cav and elephants deal no damage at all. When I brought this up they nerfed elephants.

This patch even shock cav does nothing. My lancers are charging into backs and doing 10 kills out of 300.
At least elephants are still killy but I can't even complain on TWC cause theyll just nerf elephants and call it good.
It's crazy though, a single unit of elephants as Epirus is doing ALL my killing. In my atropatkan game I didn't have elephants and just had no killing power in the whole army since archers haven't done damage for months.

The mod has had good battles several times but they always patch them out, why are historical modders like this?

E there was one lovely time when every unit dealt damage and had a use. I remember when Macedonian heavy cav could punch through whole units of infantry and come out the other side. Now I gotta go to 3k for that but the units are so much less pretty...

alex314
Nov 22, 2007


They removed "faster battles" submod? I remember it being absolutely essential.

3K Mandate campaign question: what happens when YT get to 50 provinces when I'm on Han side? They got to 30 and show no sign of stopping despite me killing Gong Du. Will their unstoppable wave go ever south or is there some stops added?

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Communist Thoughts posted:

Man I love DeI but I wish they wouldn't insist on a battle balance where nothing happens and nobody dies.

Last time round they patched the battles they made everything except shock cav and elephants deal no damage at all. When I brought this up they nerfed elephants.

This patch even shock cav does nothing. My lancers are charging into backs and doing 10 kills out of 300.
At least elephants are still killy but I can't even complain on TWC cause theyll just nerf elephants and call it good.
It's crazy though, a single unit of elephants as Epirus is doing ALL my killing. In my atropatkan game I didn't have elephants and just had no killing power in the whole army since archers haven't done damage for months.

The mod has had good battles several times but they always patch them out, why are historical modders like this?

E there was one lovely time when every unit dealt damage and had a use. I remember when Macedonian heavy cav could punch through whole units of infantry and come out the other side. Now I gotta go to 3k for that but the units are so much less pretty...

Cycle charging cavalry 40 times is "tactical" despite being utterly ahistorical and more importantly, lovely and boring.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



alex314 posted:

They removed "faster battles" submod? I remember it being absolutely essential.

3K Mandate campaign question: what happens when YT get to 50 provinces when I'm on Han side? They got to 30 and show no sign of stopping despite me killing Gong Du. Will their unstoppable wave go ever south or is there some stops added?

I think you auto-lose? Been so long since I played mandate anything.

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


Communist Thoughts posted:

Man I love DeI but I wish they wouldn't insist on a battle balance where nothing happens and nobody dies.

Apparently this is because historically most deaths would happen on a rout, not during active fighting.

Which is loving boring, hence me never playing these mods.

Communist Thoughts
Jan 7, 2008

0.000% of Communism has been built.
Evil, child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit eating grin.

All he has managed to do is make himself *sad*.

Instead of building communism, he now builds a precise model of this grotesque, duplicitous world.




dogstile posted:

Apparently this is because historically most deaths would happen on a rout, not during active fighting.

Which is loving boring, hence me never playing these mods.

Sometimes the combat is in a really good place but apparently that's not on purpose lol

DeI has infantry acting as kinda cement blocks which I actually like. 3Ks formations do some similar stuff.
It means if the killy units work phalanx infantry is more like a battlefield obstacle for your cav or shock infantry to maneuver around then they pop satisfyingly when you hit them from behind.
When it's good it makes each unit a very different tool that has to be applied specifically.

I prefer that to warhammers deadly scrum based combat

Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL



dogstile posted:

Apparently this is because historically most deaths would happen on a rout, not during active fighting.

Which is loving boring, hence me never playing these mods.

If that's their reasoning, it's totally ahistorical. The Battle of Cannae, for example, had massive numbers of casualties in spite of the Romans fighting to the last man. The only survivors were those who were outside the envelopment and able to retreat. I loved DEI for Rome 1, but the sequel never lived up to it's predecessor.

Chomp8645
Sep 1, 2006

Vvardenfell awaits.



Kaal posted:

If that's their reasoning, it's totally ahistorical. The Battle of Cannae, for example, had massive numbers of casualties in spite of the Romans fighting to the last man. The only survivors were those who were outside the envelopment and able to retreat. I loved DEI for Rome 1, but the sequel never lived up to it's predecessor.

A you earnestly saying that because a counterexample exists, a very agreed upon fact of military history is just bunk?


Because that would sound very stupid.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


The main issue with Total War is you just canít disengage a unit even remotely smoothly, which means you canít really do any interesting things like cycling out fatigued units without shittons of casualties. This makes it impossible to do interesting historical style battles.

DEI is still pretty great. Sometimes they gently caress up the balance but thatís what the submods are for.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Chomp8645 posted:

A you earnestly saying that because a counterexample exists, a very agreed upon fact of military history is just bunk?


Because that would sound very stupid.

It's selective realism. Infantry in DeI doesn't sometimes break prior to a charge landing. Everyone responds to commands instantly and you have a near-perfect view of the field. Everyone holds formation where they're ordered to. Its very clear who is and isn't an army. Scouting is basically worthless. Supply lines aren't an issue and every army is more than capable of feeding itself. Its trying to ape a realism simulator without actually doing it instead of going for gameplay considerations, so it ends up feeling very cherry-picked.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 14:14 on May 13, 2020

Chomp8645
Sep 1, 2006

Vvardenfell awaits.



Oh yeah I'm not saying the mod is good. It sure doesn't sound like a good change, from a gameplay standpoint.

But it's just historical fact that battles of the era did usually come down to a "break" of one army or the other, at which point most of the killing occurred. This does not mean that every battle went this way. There are always aberrations in every era. But citing a singular battle like Cannae, one that is already very unusual for a whole host reasons, to say the mod is ahistorical is just pretty dang foolish.

Chomp8645 fucked around with this message at 14:16 on May 13, 2020

lurksion
Mar 21, 2013


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

The main issue with Total War is you just can’t disengage a unit even remotely smoothly, which means you can’t really do any interesting things like cycling out fatigued units without shittons of casualties. This makes it impossible to do interesting historical style battles.
What's funny is that you were capable of doing this in RTW original when units were not "sticky" like they are now

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010
Bench press was, is and will never be a great chest builder.

Blooming Brilliant posted:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCGIZJiZo-U

Weird they're jumping so far ahead in the timeline, but I guess this is to stop everyone asking "when's Nanman?"

Edit: For those unaffiliated with the Nanman campaign, it's basically Romance mode on steroids; magic, rattan-armoured super troops, elephants and tigers, and Zhuge Liang's fire-breathing "juggernauts".

Do Warhammer and 3K use the same engine? Because it's convenient timing that they're adding War Lions to TW:W2, CA can re-use the skeleton/rigging for Nanman Tigers.

The lions look like they reuse wolf skeleton/rigging.

Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL



Chomp8645 posted:

A you earnestly saying that because a counterexample exists, a very agreed upon fact of military history is just bunk? Because that would sound very stupid.

Battles are deadly in all aspects. It's silly to pretend that casualty-free fighting is in any way representative of military history.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Kaal posted:

Battles are deadly in all aspects. It's silly to pretend that casualty-free fighting is in any way representative of military history.

Casualty though, doesnít equal death. Thatís one of the big distinctions TW and most games are missing.

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Chomp8645
Sep 1, 2006

Vvardenfell awaits.



Kaal posted:

Battles are deadly in all aspects. It's silly to pretend that casualty-free fighting is in any way representative of military history.

Does the mod actually do this? Or are you just saying it?

I ask because it would be very strange for the mod to make fighting "casualty-free", and your previous analysis doesn't exactly inspire confidence

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