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Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



I'd be terrible at MP, mostly because I tend to wander off mid-game for a cup of tea then return after like 40 minutes and forget the tea.



Curious on what characters the Namman DLC might update into actual uniques. Hoping we get Zhang He, Pang De, Cao Ren and maybe someone like Lu Su. Or even the Commander-Bandit that's with Zhang Yan as most Bandits seem to be Champions at the moment.

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Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

Multiplayer popularity is a pretty good metric for how much staying power a total war title will have. 3k is a bit of an anomaly, but I'd chalk that up to them tapping into a massive new market.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



Three Kingdoms multiplayer collapsed because they did nothing to fix it's many balance issues.

Zikan
Feb 29, 2004



Warhammer 2 multiplayer is actually cool to watch because you see the purpose of units that people consider trash in single player like rat orgres and empire knights. It's cooler then seeing doomstacks run into each other imo

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



How do you all tend to prefer to build the mixed Harbour/Farmland Commanderies? Do you tend to split between Food/Commerce or just go all in on the one as needed?

ACValiant
Sep 7, 2005

"Life is not a song, sweetling.
Someday you may learn that, to your sorrow."

Flipswitch posted:

How do you all tend to prefer to build the mixed Harbour/Farmland Commanderies? Do you tend to split between Food/Commerce or just go all in on the one as needed?

I try to do as little building as possible so if I grab a port and it's geared one way or the other that's usually what I stick with for the whole commandery. Rebuilding to make the thing more efficient rarely pays off for me. I'll just use that money to buy an army to take something else

Meyers-Briggs Testicle
Aug 13, 2012

But without the hero, there is no Event.


Buglord

Flipswitch posted:

How do you all tend to prefer to build the mixed Harbour/Farmland Commanderies? Do you tend to split between Food/Commerce or just go all in on the one as needed?

Usually all in and usually towards commerce. You can run a slight food deficit and make it up via trading pretty easily but running too far in the red with food can leave you boned if everyone turns their back on you. If its already level 2 or 3 I say eh and leave it

Arbite
Nov 4, 2009








I wonder what 'full' mod support means, particularly on Epic. Can't be Medieval 2 level.

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??



Supposedly the 3K nanman dealio is supposed to drop between Troy and its Amazon dlc, so in theory we should get some details... soon. Which is good cause I'm jonesing hard

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

Arbite posted:

I wonder what 'full' mod support means, particularly on Epic. Can't be Medieval 2 level.

They implied that it would match what the steam workshop offers, but that was a while ago. I don't know if they have since changed their promise.

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Thanks all, going all in on one seems better. I quite like going strong on food for big cities but also as it gives you a lot of weight in the diplomacy game. It's for my Ma Chao campaign specifically and it was the port of Ba.

Fuligin posted:

Supposedly the 3K nanman dealio is supposed to drop between Troy and its Amazon dlc, so in theory we should get some details... soon. Which is good cause I'm jonesing hard
There's a trailer still with Meng Huo floating around so sooner than we think!

I think I'll download Troy when it comes out, I am interested in trying it and the period is interesting.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

Zikan posted:

Warhammer 2 multiplayer is actually cool to watch because you see the purpose of units that people consider trash in single player like rat orgres and empire knights. It's cooler then seeing doomstacks run into each other imo

I do wish they could find some way to encourage this kind of mixed composition in single player somehow because yeah in SP there's really no reason to use anything but a doomstack of your strongest units at all times.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012



The Cheshire Cat posted:

I do wish they could find some way to encourage this kind of mixed composition in single player somehow because yeah in SP there's really no reason to use anything but a doomstack of your strongest units at all times.

There is a way to do so (to some extent) with unit caps. It's just that CA seems reluctant to actually implement those outside true oddities like Tomb Kings.

And Rat Ogres in particular are alright units in campaign - it's just that virtually everyone rushes for like an almost pure gun line + war machine build as Skaven. Even aside from the actual overall cost of those builds (which is obviously a restriction in MP) there's also the fact that the AI is just flat out much worse at dealing with that than an actual thinking human player. So it's not so much "Rat Ogres are garbage" as it is "Skaven gunlines + Doomflayers + extra army of slaves is overpowered vs. the AI."

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



I think giving people the option to make full spam gimmick armies isn't a bad thing but then again I'm happy to put limitations on myself (max 2x unit type per retinue or 2x per army for example) and don't play multiplayer which does change things.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

Flipswitch posted:

I think giving people the option to make full spam gimmick armies isn't a bad thing but then again I'm happy to put limitations on myself (max 2x unit type per retinue or 2x per army for example) and don't play multiplayer which does change things.

I usually do this kind of thing too just to keep it interesting, but part of the issue is that the AI doesn't and it gets really old fighting the same big ol stack of High Elves that's just sea guard and spearmen over and over. I guess it does make the AI more competent if they have fewer unique units in an army since they don't have to juggle multiple roles against each other, but still.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007



Lord Koth posted:

There is a way to do so (to some extent) with unit caps. It's just that CA seems reluctant to actually implement those outside true oddities like Tomb Kings.

And Rat Ogres in particular are alright units in campaign - it's just that virtually everyone rushes for like an almost pure gun line + war machine build as Skaven. Even aside from the actual overall cost of those builds (which is obviously a restriction in MP) there's also the fact that the AI is just flat out much worse at dealing with that than an actual thinking human player. So it's not so much "Rat Ogres are garbage" as it is "Skaven gunlines + Doomflayers + extra army of slaves is overpowered vs. the AI."

I wish extra unit and army cost wasn't linear. An army of Britonia peasants should cost basically nothing but two of doom should be prohibitively expensive.

Let me know if these things changed but just having a new lord cost you 1.35 upkeep really means you have to doom. Especially on the harder difficulty

lurksion
Mar 21, 2013


Submarine Sandpaper posted:

I wish extra unit and army cost wasn't linear. An army of Britonia peasants should cost basically nothing but two of doom should be prohibitively expensive.

Let me know if these things changed but just having a new lord cost you 1.35 upkeep really means you have to doom. Especially on the harder difficulty
Though to be pedantic, bretonnia is a bad example because they do not have the extra supply lines upkeep.

upgunned shitpost
Jan 21, 2015



you can also pull off some remarkably stupid poo poo with brettonian peasants and the fey enchantress

maybe not 'doom' but gotta be somewhere near 'woe' at least.

Jeb Bush 2012
Apr 4, 2007

A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

I wish extra unit and army cost wasn't linear. An army of Britonia peasants should cost basically nothing but two of doom should be prohibitively expensive.

Let me know if these things changed but just having a new lord cost you 1.35 upkeep really means you have to doom. Especially on the harder difficulty

I think the testing grounds had a campaign version without supply lines but I don't know if they have any plans to incorporate that into main

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Higher tier units causing a stacking upkeep penalty to their army when you have more than a certain amount might help encourage having varied armies using lower-tier units and encourage mixing up compositions.

So a steamtank is fine, maybe causes a little more upkeep for the whole army. A second steamtank suddenly adds a large upkeep penalty to every unit in the army, while another t5 unit also adds some upkeep, but not as much as a second steamtank. You'd have to play around with values and number of allowed units per faction and unit and it'd be a balancing nightmare but it would reduce doomstacking. It might also unnecessarily incentivise swarms of chaff instead.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





The source material has the answer, either have a point limit or a force org chart. Point limit is simple, gold = points, and each army can be worth so much gold. Alternatively, and what I prefer since there is a mod that does this that I like, a force org chart breaks your army down into core, special, and rare troops. You can have more special troops than rare, and each unit costs x points in addition to gold. So a star dragon is 3 rare points and you have 5 rare points to use per army total. Meanwhile your lower tier troops are core so you can have as many spearmanii and archers as your heart desires.

Tiler Kiwi
Feb 26, 2011


Nap Ghost

people citing the source game is always funny as its balance was total dogshit and its kind of understood it wasn't actually that good of a game

Insurrectionist
May 21, 2007


Tiler Kiwi posted:

people citing the source game is always funny as its balance was total dogshit and its kind of understood it wasn't actually that good of a game

Teenage me disagrees

I would probably still be into the game if it wasn't such a pain to play in every other way (live an hour away from anyone to play with, transportation and storage is a pain, it's expensive as gently caress and oh yeah WHF is dead now so that's a big issue too). I mean it was hardly perfectly balanced back when I played but I never ran into anything worse than poo poo like ranged units in TWW2 and I still enjoy TWW2 just fine so.

I tried the 5 rare point/10 special point mod out but it felt a bit too restrictive to me. Only one real power-unit in a 20-unit army felt too restrictive for me compared to the TT experience. Something like 3 big rare boys and ~6 - 8 special units per army would be better IMO.

Jeb Bush 2012
Apr 4, 2007

A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

Tiler Kiwi posted:

people citing the source game is always funny as its balance was total dogshit and its kind of understood it wasn't actually that good of a game

yeah and the org chart in particular was designed as a bandaid on the fact that the designers couldn't be bothered to balance the underlying game

maybe adopting it would be a good idea given how the game is currently (tomb king late game armies are a lot more fun than the doomstacks imo) but it would be better to design a system where, say, a few mammoths is good and 20 mammoths is not

yikes!
Jul 5, 2006




Soiled Meat

I hated that org chart mod. Not every faction wants the same amount of t1 troops and I like that asymmetry a lot more than I hate domstacks. I also like making gimmick/theme armies and it was pretty restrictive on the kind I like.

I tried the cost point mod also and it felt better but I donít remember if it actually affected the AI or not.

Stanley Tucheetos
May 15, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Honestly tomb kings really don't prevent doomstacks. It does however promote different types of doomstacks. Each of the units tend to perform best when paired with the same units due to the blue line of buffs and other traits. The tomb kings unit limit just promotes individual armies of different units. I'll end up with a bone giant army, a sphinx army, an ushabti army, and a scorpion army with the rest filled out with skeleton spearmen and archers chaff.

Without improving the ai the only way to lessen doomstacking is to make each unit perform better in conjunction with other units as opposed to the same units.

Insurrectionist
May 21, 2007


I feel like the only real way to combat doomstacking besides caps or similar is to change up red line skills completely. Remove all the 'boosts units x, y, z' it'd be better to have skills that promote synergies between different types of units. One very obvious one could be a massive boost to missile damage against units that are flanked in melee, for example. Or a skill that lets skirmishing units increase the range of artillery with their field of vision (probably with some limitations to avoid complete stupidity but still). A skill that significantly reduces the damage taken from friendly fire on cavalry, a skill that boosts increases melee defense and leadership for infantry engaged in the same combat as friendly cavalry, a skill that gives small entity infantry extra missile block when next to large entity units, etc etc.

You'd also need a rebalance of unit types in general IMO but it'd be a nice start.

E: You could have unique ones like Chariot-focused skills for Settra, but ones that encourage you to bring other units as well (massive speed boost to Ushabti when near chariots) or whacky stuff like stalk for light cavalry if you have at least 4 units and none are within 200 yards of each-other, you can do all kinds of crazy poo poo.

Insurrectionist fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Aug 1, 2020

Captain Beans
Aug 5, 2004

Whar be the beans?

Hair Elf

they have all the tools in place for the ending of doomstacks and mixing up army composition:

1) resources besides money from Troy required for recruiting units
2) different color or 'types' of generals recruiting different units from 3K
3) dynamic unit pool from Thrones
4) straight up army cap hard limit based on some kind of faction level from 3k

but I think at the end of the day most people WANT to roll around with a doom stack killing everything, so I would be surprised to see if they implement something

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



I think encouraging diversity is also better than restricting people into it. 3k does that with retinues and general bonuses.

Speaking of 3k, I wonder what campaign starts we'll get for the expansion. Liu Bei is a given.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


yikes! posted:

I hated that org chart mod. Not every faction wants the same amount of t1 troops and I like that asymmetry a lot more than I hate domstacks. I also like making gimmick/theme armies and it was pretty restrictive on the kind I like.

I tried the cost point mod also and it felt better but I don’t remember if it actually affected the AI or not.

Agreed. A force chart org might be the answer but that mod isn't it.

Blooming Brilliant
Jul 12, 2010



Flipswitch posted:

I think encouraging diversity is also better than restricting people into it. 3k does that with retinues and general bonuses.

Speaking of 3k, I wonder what campaign starts we'll get for the expansion. Liu Bei is a given.

Probably not since he's dead by the Nanman Campaign

If I had to guess, and let's say we get 10-ish new starts:

Liu Shan,
Zhuge Liang, he'll be a separate start that's a vassal under Liu Shan,
Cao Pi,
Simi Yi, same deal as Zhuge Liang,
Sun Quan,
maybe Lu Xun, same again as Liang and Yi,
Zheng Jiang or Lady Trieu for a Bandit start,
Meng Huo obviously,
and maybe a couple other Nanman starts, like King Mulu.

Now some wild cards:

Gongsun Kang, just to give the north-eastern part of the map something,
speaking of, possibly Kebineng or someone representing the northern nomadic tribes,
lastly, Yong Kai who will probably be featured in some way since he's the historical figure behind the rebellion, but CA might make him a unique/playable.

Edit: Shi Xie would also make sense for the FLC character, since he's kicking until 226.

Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Aug 2, 2020

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Ah true I was thinking Shu/Zhuge when I said Liu but the timeline isn't my strong point. I hope we get a bucket of uniques, the lack of them is a real weakness of the 8 Prince's campaign.

Blooming Brilliant
Jul 12, 2010



Same, uniques are great.

This expansion will probably set up other start date DLC's, maybe stuff like Wu Zhang Plains/Simi Yi's rise to power. We'll probably see lots of uniques who play critical roles in those events established, like Jiang Wei.

Also I'd expect Cao Ren and Zhang He being made proper uniques, since they played roles in the Wei Invasions of Wu during the time. Maybe Ma Zhong for Shu since he was a crucial commander in the Nanman Campaign.

Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Aug 2, 2020

NoNotTheMindProbe
Aug 9, 2010
pony porn was here


We got the full hero rosters now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szw-8FLS5Rc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfbNTnGQMuY

It's good that they're going with unique campaign features for each hero out of the gate. That's easily the best part of the Warhammer lord packs.

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??



Flipswitch posted:

I think encouraging diversity is also better than restricting people into it. 3k does that with retinues and general bonuses.

Speaking of 3k, I wonder what campaign starts we'll get for the expansion. Liu Bei is a given.

Supposedly this expansion won't add a new startdate

Meyers-Briggs Testicle
Aug 13, 2012

But without the hero, there is no Event.


Buglord

Fuligin posted:

Supposedly this expansion won't add a new startdate

^ its this

i dont think we're getting 10, if the spacing on the bottom is to be believed theres 2 in between 194 and 8 princes

my guesses are red cliffs which comes with a naval combat system and mid northern campaigns / pre wuzhang plains giving you the choice to get usurped into jin

the only question is how you make wei interesting, maybe just breaking it into 10 vassals and be a bit disingenuous with how efficiently it was run by wei

in current 3k if you laid out the maps of wu wei and shu immediately post cao cao's death, wei would be a difficulty below easy. You own almost half the map, and own 80% of the good parts

Lance of Llanwyln
Jun 11, 2008

GIVE ME MORE
SUPER BOWL
WINS




Plaster Town Cop

Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:

^ its this

i dont think we're getting 10, if the spacing on the bottom is to be believed theres 2 in between 194 and 8 princes

my guesses are red cliffs which comes with a naval combat system and mid northern campaigns / pre wuzhang plains giving you the choice to get usurped into jin

the only question is how you make wei interesting, maybe just breaking it into 10 vassals and be a bit disingenuous with how efficiently it was run by wei

in current 3k if you laid out the maps of wu wei and shu immediately post cao cao's death, wei would be a difficulty below easy. You own almost half the map, and own 80% of the good parts
I mean, after the death of Cao Pi, the Wei emperors were increasingly sidelined figureheads. It would make sense to at least have distinct vassal factions to represent Sima Yi and Cao Shuang, so you could ultimately simulate their power struggle. The Wei emperor would then get the unique challenge of managing this infighting without becoming subsumed by either faction. You could represent fluctuations in the power dynamic by subordinating the other factions to the preeminent faction. You could absolutely break it up further than that. Wu would have fewer distinct factions and the Emperor's "faction" would start out as clearly the strongest(assuming Sun Quan is still alive), but anything could happen once he kicks the bucket.
Shu is probably best represented as no more than two factions. It might even make sense to make Zhuge Liang the dominant faction at scenario start, to represent the fact Liu Shan basically let him do whatever. Zhuge Liang's inevitable death would upset the power balance and lead to Liu Shan being more "active", which could make for an interesting challenge for the player(assuming that it wouldn't be trivial just to dumpster him and seize power for yourself, of course).

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Huh, that's pretty interesting. I was under the impression it was leading onto the Namman expedition but that's cool if not. Roll on the info!

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



I started to play another game of Shogun 2 again but this time as Oda. Any tips? Is that clan's special units worth getting?

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The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

Jimbot posted:

I started to play another game of Shogun 2 again but this time as Oda. Any tips? Is that clan's special units worth getting?

Yes, they are some of the best special units in the game.

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