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I feel like spies are badly explained because a lot of their activities I never seem to be able to do. Or quite get how to influence them into other positions. Admittedly half of that is me being dumb, but still.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:11
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Yeah it always felt like spies had a lot of potential utility but it’s a little clunky to pull off, takes awhile to accumulate points and/or I’m too dumb to use it correctly.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:14
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spies are extremely useful if you either plan around them or are a little lucky. going up against an enemy force with one of your spies in it, then defecting and immediately turning an even match into a 4v2 is insane. having the commandery spy throw the gates open and/or slowly poison the defenders is amazing. you can use the spies to make the leader hate a particular individual, which you can then usually recruit either as a free agent or a spy. its very much a "set and forget" strategy. sometimes it doesn't pay off, sometimes you capture cao cao.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:20
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The main problem with spies is using your own spies is pretty terrible, since not only do you have to send over a character, there's a chance they won't get hired at all or get into any good positions. It's much easier and reliable to use turncoats, although as the computer gets access to the imperial ministers finding those can be very difficult (although any spies you manage to get hired by the enemy will probably defect unless you spam the maintain loyalty subterfuge). It can be useful to sabotage enemy armies, but reducing satisfaction of named chars so I can steal them is mostly what I use them for.
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Feb 27, 2021 00:52
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I wonder if the new subterfuge system for Cao Cao will help him using spies, as he can target lower satisfaction by the looks of things to set up turncoats.
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Feb 27, 2021 02:18
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I have gotten plenty of good work out of spies. It has taken effort - lots of effort even - but they can be very helpful when you put the investment in. Being able to cripple your own ally without war is very useful.
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Feb 27, 2021 02:56
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Jamwad Hilder posted:So? The Boshin war was in 1868, less than 300 years after the end of the Sengoku period. Charlemagne lived about 300 years after Attila. Both expansions feature factions or their direct descendants who were involved in the events of the main game. The point is nothing's stopping them from doing an expansion with the same geography but different technology which has large gameplay implications. I very much doubt it's the disparity in time that gives them pause.
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Feb 27, 2021 02:56
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Yeah I'd just like them to do more varied time periods now they've got these nice maps and campaign mechanics. I know it's unlikely to happen I just want more gunpowder total wars
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Feb 27, 2021 03:01
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The point is nothing's stopping them from doing an expansion with the same geography but different technology which has large gameplay implications. I very much doubt it's the disparity in time that gives them pause. they would make hundreds of new models of buildings and units and people would just say "this isnt warhammer 3"
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Feb 27, 2021 03:07
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The point is nothing's stopping them from doing an expansion with the same geography but different technology which has large gameplay implications. I very much doubt it's the disparity in time that gives them pause. Yeah but 1600+ years is a huge disparity in time to dismiss as just being technological differences. Without even a tenuous bit of narrative continuity it's just a different game. It's the same reason the OP said you don't have a world war expansion for Rome 2, it doesn't make any sense. It's true FoTS has a relatively large technological leap, but it's still connected to the time period of Shogun 2 in a tangible way.
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Feb 27, 2021 04:14
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Yeah but 1600+ years is a huge disparity in time to dismiss as just being technological differences. Without even a tenuous bit of narrative continuity it's just a different game. It's the same reason the OP said you don't have a world war expansion for Rome 2, it doesn't make any sense. It's true FoTS has a relatively large technological leap, but it's still connected to the time period of Shogun 2 in a tangible way. Like, for starters, the South had seen a massive population explosion, and the Yangtze/Chang Jiang delta in particular had become one of the most densely populated and prosperous areas in the country. Meanwhile, the Central Plains area that was the foundation of the Han and Cao Wei/Sima Jin had declined significantly in relative importance. You would also need a lot more density in the north around Beijing, as well. Like, I cannot stress enough that nothing about 3K: Total War lends itself to modeling the Taiping Rebellion, aside from the basic geography. But yes: a Taiping Rebellion game would be baller, because the Taiping Rebellion was goddamned nuts.
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Feb 27, 2021 04:26
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Yeah, the Taiping Rebellion would be a super interesting time period. I just think there's zero chance of it being a 3K expansion. Also might as well post this meme (again?) since it makes me laugh every time 
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Feb 27, 2021 04:34
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I know nothing of any of this but those seem like decent candidates for a Saga game? Given that at least some of the map/systems/interest are already there.
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Feb 27, 2021 04:43
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They would have to ditch the hero system too, it doesn't really lend itself to the time period. But it'd be a hell of a game. FOTS on a larger scale.
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Feb 27, 2021 07:14
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Yes, I would like to make a firing line of Armstrong cannons again in a more modern Total War 
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Feb 27, 2021 07:22
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I hope they do at least two more expansions for 3k. Chibi would be a good candidate and that's not even touching the actual Three Kingdoms era really. Jamwad Hilder posted:Yeah, the Taiping Rebellion would be a super interesting time period. I just think there's zero chance of it being a 3K expansion.
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Feb 27, 2021 10:16
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Anno posted:I know nothing of any of this but those seem like decent candidates for a Saga game? Given that at least some of the map/systems/interest are already there. 19th century China would also have a pretty good amount of faction variety to boot, especially if they extend the starting timeframe to include the Opium Wars. I'm holding onto the possible dream it'll be done, it's definitely now the top historical period I want in a TW game  Edit: Keep the Duel system, but if say it's between a British and French general they just have a ten-paces duel instead. Also, have a Qing Dynasty Tiger Man. 
Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 11:34
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The 2nd Opium War happened in the middle of the Taiping Rebellion, which is one of the many crazy things about the whole era.
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Feb 27, 2021 12:02
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Mantis42 posted:The 2nd Opium War happened in the middle of the Taiping Rebellion, which is one of the many crazy things about the whole era.
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Feb 27, 2021 13:39
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Phone posting but Cao Ren is a Commander and not a Champion which is nice.
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Feb 28, 2021 16:59
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Do we know what the "imperial intrigue" mechanic is?
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Mar 1, 2021 20:16
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Baron Porkface posted:Do we know what the "imperial intrigue" mechanic is? Not beyond what was shown off in the video Friday to my knowledge. Sounds like content embargo drops tomorrow so we’ll probably learn more.
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Mar 1, 2021 20:24
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I think the timing would have been a slight stretch but the 200ce start would have been neat for Sun Quan over Sun Ce.
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Mar 1, 2021 22:04
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For people who actually know Three Kingdoms history, is this likely to be kind of a one-off chapter pack in terms of introducing so few new factions? Or is this just something CA is going to have to deal with going forward? I actually really like the focus on overhauling a bunch of base game stuff/popular factions instead, and I insta-buy all 3K DLCs anyway, but it sounds like a difficult thing to sell, relatively.
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Mar 1, 2021 23:39
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I'm still waiting for a Red Cliffs-era start
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Mar 1, 2021 23:47
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Anno posted:For people who actually know Three Kingdoms history, is this likely to be kind of a one-off chapter pack in terms of introducing so few new factions? Or is this just something CA is going to have to deal with going forward? I actually really like the focus on overhauling a bunch of base game stuff/popular factions instead, and I insta-buy all 3K DLCs anyway, but it sounds like a difficult thing to sell, relatively. There's gonna be another big expansion with the northern tribes ala Furious Wild. Han Sui is an inevitable FLC. The Korea stuff with Gongsun can eventually be pulled out. Sun Quan will eventually get his own mechanics, as probably will Cao Pi and maybe Liu Shan. But as time goes on the independent warlords get crushed or absorbed into the big three and the Three Kingdoms will form. There will still be Nanman, the Northern Tribes and Korea and Shi Xie under Sun Quan but the number of starts will get lower, not higher. Late-era stuff might be brought up but by that point it's only a handful of factions.
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Mar 1, 2021 23:49
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I can definitely see a Simi Yi/Late Three Kingdoms focused expansion down the road as well. I like how Fates Divided highlights how CA is going to pull off large factions going forward. Just break them up into multiple factions with lieges and vassals.
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Mar 1, 2021 23:56
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McTimmy posted:There's gonna be another big expansion with the northern tribes ala Furious Wild. Yeah the expansion packs should be pretty straight forward. But I assume there will be another 3-4 chapter packs as well. Just curious what they end up doing with them.
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Mar 2, 2021 00:04
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It'll be interesting to see which start dates during the actual Three Kingdoms CA goes with. I'm going to guess a 219-ish start date built around Fan Castle/Guan Yu's death. I'm gut instinct-ing this on Guan Yu's popularity alone. Maybe a 238-ish start date with Simi Yi's Liaodong campaign. Gameplay wise it'd make sense, Simi Yi can start in the top corner of the map to build a power base to then attack Wei with. Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 00:11
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Yeah, I think in terms of the major/main players the warlords already are all in now? It's now mostly about fleshing out the existing factions with all their major and secondary characters. Around the later era Three Kingdoms areas, my issue with them is you'd ideally want to art shift the existing characters to be way older, a lot of the notable and beloved characters have died off and the characters for this period aren't in the game yet. IE Jiang Wei, Lu Xun, etc.
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Mar 2, 2021 00:15
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I think Zhang Lu is going to as a playable faction at some point as well. Has some animosity with Liu Zhang and Cao Cao campaigned against him. Plus his faction would have a Taoist background which I imagine CA could implement interestingly. I'm craving more Bandit factions but I can't really think of any others to add. Yang Feng would be cool, y'know given he rescued the emperor, but think that shipped has sailed unfortunately. Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 00:20
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Flipswitch posted:Yeah, I think in terms of the major/main players the warlords already are all in now? It's now mostly about fleshing out the existing factions with all their major and secondary characters. Not having a sun quan start or unique mechanics is a pretty glaring hole considering how long he reigned. I'm very excited to see what they do with it as a huge wu fan
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Mar 2, 2021 00:26
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Yeah, Han Sui and Zhang Lu make excellent sense for factions. IIRC, historically Han Sui seems to have been dedicated to stirring poo poo up and kind of positioning himself as the power behind the scenes. Ma Teng was his sworn brother and got appointed Governor or some such post out West, but they had a very messy, violent falling out, so eventually Ma Teng opted to take a post in the capital(Han Sui seems to have been that much of an rear end in a top hat) and left Ma Chao behind to keep an eye on things, except Ma Chao was an idiot and Han Sui manipulated him into rebelling, so consequently Cao Cao arrested Ma Teng and his non-Chao sons and put them to death for it(standard practice in ancient China. Don't be related to rebels or really anyone the Emperor/King/Prime Minister/etc. doesn't like kids!). After Ma Chao got his rear end kicked and fled south, Han Sui remained on the frontier until his death a few years later. He was probably Qiang or Qiang-related, like Ma Teng. So Han Sui would appear in all current scenarios(save Eight Princes). Ideally, his faction power would be to be a massive shitlord, maybe enable him to manipulate minor lords or Qiang and/or Xiongnu into taking aggressive action. I don't know a whole lot about the northern "barbarians", but RTK typically models the Qiang, Xiongnu, and Wuwan. The Qiang were out west and were historically a problem in terms of maintaining order in the West(they rebelled/raided a lot, but seem to have been disorganized). The Xiongnu were horse nomads, but seem to have been somewhat more organized. Historically, the Han had had many dealings with them. At the dynasty's strongest, they actually managed to seize part of the Tarim Basin and insulate themselves from Xiongnu raids, but the more normal state of affairs was for the Han to buy them off. Even a noble like Cai Wenji wasn't safe from being captured in a raid. Cao Cao chose to treat with them diplomatically. They're probably, historically, the most threatening "barbarians". The Wuwan and Korea stuff I know nothing about, but there was plenty going on out there(there always is plenty going on anywhere any time). As far as other possible factions, Zhang Ji/Xiu is pretty compelling, though that would be a 194-only deal. Yang Feng could also be cool, but that ship does seem to have sailed. By 200, you have a lot of consolidation and you're only going to have fewer and fewer Chinese factions as bandits and also-rans get increasingly stamped out. As far as bandits, I have no idea who else would be in the faction, but Ze Rong was a bandit around Huainan who financed the construction of one of the earliest Buddhist temples in China, IIRC. Being a Buddhist bandit would be interesting.
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Mar 2, 2021 00:46
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Historically in this period in Korea/Manchuria the big players are Gongsun Du, Goguryeo and Buyeo. Veering a bit more into legend (historically it was still early for them), there’s also Baekje, Silla, Gaya in Korea, and Yamatai in Japan. In addition to what’s currently on the map, Gongsun Du held the Han Dynasty commanderies on the peninsula, which are based at Pyongyang, have direct control down to about the northern border of modern South Korea, but are also super influential on many of the native Korean states farther south + the closer parts of Japan. The native states in the region were starting to assert themselves more as Han got weaker (Han’s colonial policy was to actively keep them as divided/weak as possible) but the former-Han territory in this region remained under Chinese leadership until 313, although (as in most peripheral parts of Han) native people made up a significant chunk of the administration and army and may have actually been rulers of the commanderies there at a couple of points (although conventionally the governor was appointed from the central Chinese court). Normal Chinese units with a strong native element would make sense imo, and I would personally include some mechanic based around colonial/imperial rule of the far east, e.g. conferring titles to locals in exchange for resources. Goguryeo was a Koreanic kingdom based in the foresty/mountainous stretch between Korea and Manchuria, with an equestrian nobility. Later in their history they would hold basically all of Manchuria + much of Korea, and would inflict some of the most lopsided defeats on China in its history, but 3K is still pretty early days for them, and they were mostly known for just doing raids. Archaeologically at this point they were still just a tribal confederation, but CA could also easily make them more of a peer to the Chinese states if they draw from the sketchier early parts of the Korean classical histories. They were famous for their cavalry and cataphracts (albeit later on), but Korean groups in general were also notable archers. They also ruled over some groups on Korea’s east coast that were noted for pike infantry that had pikes that took 3 people to use, which could be unique at least. Buyeo to the north is the oldest non-Chinese state in the region (predating Chinese rule there) and was already a proper kingdom, probably the most powerful non-Chinese polity there even though they’re mostly forgotten today. They held territory in the open plains of southern Manchuria + ruled over the proto-Jurchen Yilou in the mountains to the east at the game’s start, although they would see some big losses over the 200s. They were also seen as the progenitor of a couple of the other Korean(ish) groups, including Goguryeo, and were culturally pretty similar although a bit more developed. They were also notably friendly to China, in sharp contrast to Goguryeo. In terms of actual history, the groups of the southern peninsula that would go on to later become the states of Baekje/Silla/Gaya were still just decentralized tribal groups, but like with Goguryeo, if CA draws on the more legendary parts of the classical Korean histories (which I imagine make sense for this kind of game), this was actually in Korea the start of Korea’s own Three Kingdoms period, with Goguryeo/Baekje/Silla all vying for supremacy. As something more like proper states but with a distinct flavor from the former Han ones it could be interesting to go that way than the more historically attestable tribes, and it’s still the conventional understanding of the period for most Koreans. Baekje was based around modern Seoul, and was (from its legends) another offshoot of Buyeo, like Goguryeo, with the nobility at least being culturally fairly similar. In their later history they were also closely aligned with Japan, regularly relying on Japanese auxiliaries, which if CA doesn’t include the latter could be a neat way of still adding some Japanese stuff to the game for people that inevitably want it. Of the Korean kingdoms, they were most notable for their artistic / cultural strengths. Silla in Korea’s southeast would go on to be the eventual unifier of the peninsula. They had a very rigid caste system and a steppe-infused artistic style (although weren’t related to Buyeo, unlike the other groups), with a nobility that valued horses for status, although their armies weren’t so based around them. In terms of units, they were probably (in their later history, but eh) most notable for the Hwarang, the elite male youth that were supposed to be skilled both as warriors and poets, as well as being specifically selected for their looks. The Hwarang were also actually preceeded by the Wonhwa, who were their female counterpart. In gameplay terms I assume CA would just include both, as the Hwarang especially (along with Korean-style cataphracts) are the most notably Korean units in this period. Silla’s ruler also ruled by the consent of a formalized council of nobles, who had to agree on decisions unanimously, which could be turned into an interesting mechanic. The Gaya Confederacy was wedged between Baekje and Silla in the south, and were like Baekje very closely aligned with Japan. They would never go on to form a proper state (hence being excluded from Korea’s 3 Kingdoms), but were still kind of notable. Gameplay wise, they were the center of iron production in the area and made lots of armor, and were a major trade hub in that region, acting as a link between the peninsula and Japan. Beyond the Korean states, the Japanese kingdom/confederation of Yamatai is also notable from around this period, during the later start dates being ruled by the shaman-queen Himiko. I’m not sure they’d extend the map that far, but the various Japanese tribes/states had regular dealings with most of the Korean polities, so them factoring in in some way would be nice. I mentioned them briefly before, but the proto-Jurchen Yilou could also be playable; they were vassals to the Buyeo but would become independent a few decades into the game. They were a very undeveloped tribal group, living deep in the mountains, and notable in TW terms I guess for their poison archers. Koramei fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 02:47
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Koramei posted:Cool stuff. Thank you for posting this, been wanting some information about Korea in this period for a while  Anything further you would recommend for brushing up?
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Mar 2, 2021 03:06
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There's nothing great that's focused just on Korea, sadly, at least that's out at the moment (the Cambridge History is due out in 2 years). It's a bit dry but the best for a general introduction imo is Gina Barnes 2015 edition of Archaeology of East Asia: The Rise of Civilization in China, Korea and Japan. It's (obviously) got an archaeological focus and splits the attention between all three, but I actually think that's kind of important for getting a proper understanding of the region (incidentally I would say the same to people interested in just Japan/China; things get too insular in East Asia studies). It's also way more up to date than any of the purely Korea-focused books out there, and Korean archaeologically has come a long way in the past 20 years. There's much better books about each of the various Korean states if you do want to go deep though. I like this map on the period that's from right about the start of the game's timeframe:  Lelang and Daifang are the Chinese commanderies held by the Gongsuns; their exact borders waxed and waned and they held sway well beyond what's shown there, but that was their core territory. Mahan was the tribal group that would go on to be conquered by Baekje, the Gaya Confederacy would emerge from Pyonhan (aka Byeonhan), and you can see the place there with all the arrows pointing to it (Geumgwan Gaya, unlabeled) that was the main trade hub south of the Chinese territory at the time. Chinhan (aka Jinhan) is where Silla emerges from. Ye are mountain peoples, and are barely even a recognizable polity, but were (before Goguryeo's defeat to Cao Wei shattered its tributary system) kind of under the sway of Goguryeo. This Wikipedia map is a bit more nebulous but at least shows farther north:  In reality Buyeo was the most centralized non-Chinese polity at the time, so it's a bit odd they're the only one without borders; they also ruled over Yilou, and while they didn't extend north necessarily, there wasn't any serious group up there either. Here's also some reconstructions of Korean armor from (around) the period from museums:  Gaya and Baekje  Silla (and Goguryeo's was similar) I'm really curious to see how CA will end up depicting it all; it could really go in a bunch of ways depending on how much history vs legend they want to incorporate. The classical Korean histories stretch back all the way to the 1st century BCE, and while it's only around the mid 4th century that modern historians start considering it reliable (mostly; there is some accurate older stuff), the classical histories are what informed how people understood the period for most of Korean history, so considering the main game is based off a novel anyway it might be interesting to just go straight from the classical accounts.
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Mar 2, 2021 04:08
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Following huge effort posts with my crappy posts, but the Wuhuan sided with Yuan Shang(?) and their leaders ended up getting killed by Gongsun Kang when they took shelter with him iirc. The rest surrendered to Cao Cao and were eventually absorbed into other ethnic groups. The other tribal group that has a couple of units but not much representation is the Xianbei. E: also what is it with Wu Strategists all dying early of illness? Though I guess Lu Su wasn't that early. Flipswitch fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 09:37
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I'm extremely hype for the xiongnu, they weren't at their full strength by this point iirc but they scared the Han a lot. They were highly organised but then steppe nomadic empires often were just as good if not better at logistics and organisation than settled ones. The Han pretty much got their number though by just massing crossbows and horses against them.
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Mar 2, 2021 14:38
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Flipswitch posted:Following huge effort posts with my crappy posts, but the Wuhuan sided with Yuan Shang(?) and their leaders ended up getting killed by Gongsun Kang when they took shelter with him iirc. The rest surrendered to Cao Cao and were eventually absorbed into other ethnic groups. Wu in general seemed to have pretty lovely luck.
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Mar 2, 2021 14:49
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Hunt11 posted:Wu in general seemed to have pretty lovely luck. Think it's worth emphasising that a reason why Shu and Wu lasted as long as they did was because their territories were extremely defensible. Shu was surrounded by treacherous mountain passes and Wu had the natural barrier of the Yangtze River. So they could afford to get away with lovely luck and the bad administration/corruption, which the kingdoms eventually succumbed to. Big part of why once the period hits the Three Kingdoms proper, everything just kind of stagnated until the Simi Clan made their move.
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Mar 2, 2021 15:01
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