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I assumed things stagnated because most people were dead. Censuses taken during the Han and at the start of the unified Jin showed the population went from 50 million to 10 million, and the Jin were pretty rigorous
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Mar 2, 2021 15:03
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Looks like some embargoes are up. Serious Trivia posted a DLC Deep Dive video that I assume is comprehensive because it’s over two hours long, somehow.
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Mar 2, 2021 16:21
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Anno posted:Looks like some embargoes are up. Serious Trivia posted a DLC Deep Dive video that I assume is comprehensive because it’s over two hours long, somehow. The man used up all of his permitted time on this one video. Jesus christ (in a good way.)
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Mar 2, 2021 16:30
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Yeah I'm skipping through his video for bits I'm interested in, ST is a really good youtuber.
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Mar 2, 2021 16:43
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hi all, I started playing three kingdoms after picking it up in the lunar sale. After having played Warhammer 2 for a while it's nice for a change of pace I think my Sun Jian campaign is going to end well but it was rough going until I pulled a pretty comical move on that dickhead Yuan Shao. He voltron'ed a bunch of minors and wasn't happy with me but I noticed that he was stretched pretty thin and in a war with Ma Teng. I declare war on one of his vassals bringing him in but then all his other vassals broke off and became independent. To which I immediately broker peace deals with Liu Bei and Kong Rong. So Yuan Shao's kingdom is falling apart and Ma Teng loves me  Diplomacy is so much better in this game than WH2. It feels a lot more dynamic and keeping an eye on relations is key to winning the game
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Mar 2, 2021 17:14
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The diplomacy and campaign screen is full of life to the older TW titles and I think it's key to the franchise going forward. It works really drat well with the setting too!
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Mar 2, 2021 17:27
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Flipswitch posted:The diplomacy and campaign screen is full of life to the older TW titles and I think it's key to the franchise going forward. It works really drat well with the setting too!
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Mar 2, 2021 17:42
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At least they’re finally nerfing caltrops, those things were absurdly lethal.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:53
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Edit: Lmao literally posted up the page
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Mar 2, 2021 20:48
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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:I assumed things stagnated because most people were dead. Censuses taken during the Han and at the start of the unified Jin showed the population went from 50 million to 10 million, and the Jin were pretty rigorous I feel like even if the Jin were being pretty rigorous, the general collapse of the central government would probably mean a lot of areas went "off the grid" (or whatever the 3rd century equivalent of that would be) since even with a conflict on that huge a scale, losing 80% of the population is pretty high. Even the black plague only wiped out 60% of Europe in the higher estimates.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:37
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Yeah there's no way the figures are even close to that high; the drop is overwhelmingly going to be because of people dropping off the censuses, not actually dying. Not to say there wasn't still lots of the latter. e: here's an askhistorians post that talks about it a bit. I guess they don't give anything totally definitively disproving it; maybe there hasn't been so much scholarship done on this yet, or not in English. But I've read about this exact topic in the An Lushan Rebellions (another war-related massive drop in the census figures) and the modern consensus is very much that records just fell off. People flee their villages, migrate long distances, local governments become more corrupt and ineffective. There is definitely plenty of bloodshed in historical China but nothing to the level of the recorded figures. What it does mean though is that the state lost control of that many people, so them becoming correspondingly less effective still follows. Koramei fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 22:59
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I play romance mode so those numbers are accurate
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Mar 2, 2021 23:14
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STs video now has me wanting to play Yuan Shao. The new units look really cool.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:08
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Flipswitch posted:STs video now has me wanting to play Yuan Shao. The new units look really cool.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:39
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As a bandit emperor what is my prime minister post?
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Mar 4, 2021 03:09
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Blooming Brilliant posted:Think it's worth emphasising that a reason why Shu and Wu lasted as long as they did was because their territories were extremely defensible. Shu was surrounded by treacherous mountain passes and Wu had the natural barrier of the Yangtze River. So they could afford to get away with lovely luck and the bad administration/corruption, which the kingdoms eventually succumbed to. In any case, all this internal strife made it difficult to muster up any serious military expeditions, but Wu and Shu proved unable to take advantage(and suffered a ton of their own internal issues). Really, the primary reason the period lasted as long as it did was because all three kingdoms were total messes, and the period ended when Wei/Jin lucked into a few decades of internal stability and competence.
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Mar 4, 2021 05:16
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There's a lot of grains of salt to be thrown about when assessing the abilities of an emperor, both because the analysis has historically been distorted and also because its mistaken to attribute so much to a single person. Cao Rui in particular has been targeted by a fairly large number of frankly slanderous accusations from later historians who wanted to justify either why Jin was right in superseding Wei, or why Wei was illegitimate. By most accounts I've read, Rui was at the very least competent and was actually a lot more involved in defeating the Shu northern campaigns than he is typically given credit for. Cao Pi gets a lot of unwarranted flak as well since he get compared to his genius poet brother or his genius in general dead sibling or his cunning genius father; one analysis I read pointed out as well that the things he accomplished he managed to do so well that he made it look very easy and straightforward so popular perception is that those accomplishments must have just been easy and straightforward to accomplish (successfully deposing the Han emperor being the big example). He was also frankly kind of a petty dickwad about things. As for being grandiose, one of the historical criticisms was that he was not grandiose enough; his attempts to conquer Wu were undone by him not grasping opportunity with both hands and being deterred by some bad beats, so he gets blamed for prolonging things, justified or not. There's a few other people that generally get the short end of the stick for narrative purposes, either in the novel or in historical analysis done with a political goal in mind. Non-gentry figures, figures that are disliked in traditional Confucianism (those mother fuckin eunuchs being a go to target), and people whose careers ended on a bad note (Yu Jin) or on the wrong side (late Wei/Shu/Wu). Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 06:56
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Yu Jin got done dirty imo. Gao Shun could have been a Wei Elite too but he was a bit too loyal.
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Mar 4, 2021 13:38
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Tiler Kiwi posted:There's a few other people that generally get the short end of the stick for narrative purposes, either in the novel or in historical analysis done with a political goal in mind. Non-gentry figures, figures that are disliked in traditional Confucianism (those mother fuckin eunuchs being a go to target), and people whose careers ended on a bad note (Yu Jin) or on the wrong side (late Wei/Shu/Wu).
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Mar 4, 2021 22:13
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the confucian gentry class being incredibly vindictive comes up a lot in chinese history ive read, even tho a lot of times you have to squint for it since the people who wrote the histories were confucian gentry. i read about the qing dynasty and a lot of its problems came about due to not being han, not being proper gentry, and all the confucians holding them in baleful suspicion and backing rebel factions no matter how strictly they followed doctrine. a lot of the reform efforts ran into major problems since they would require undercutting the power of that particular group so anyone who pushed too hard to adjust to the rise of the european powers would find themselves in mortal danger. that, and of course the goddamn landlords blowing up everything the moment anyone tried to extract taxes from them.
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Mar 5, 2021 08:45
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From my reading of it it seemed to go downhill after Cao Pi rather sharply. Liu Shan is an interesting figure as well, there seems to be some disagreement on whether he was an idiot/disabled or actually quite shrewd considering how stable and peaceful Shu ended up being.
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Mar 5, 2021 10:02
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Flipswitch posted:From my reading of it it seemed to go downhill after Cao Pi rather sharply. Liu Shan is an interesting figure as well, there seems to be some disagreement on whether he was an idiot/disabled or actually quite shrewd considering how stable and peaceful Shu ended up being. To my understanding, Shu was never really in a great spot, historically. Part of it was just economics, part of it was geography and the military situation in the south never quite getting resolved, part of it was that Zhuge, while fantastic in some ways, never really was able to set up an effective bureaucracy for one reason or another. Shu basically had no history department at any point, for instance. Shu being peaceful, meanwhile, is yet again really more to do with its geography and smaller size than any policy decisions by Shan. Liu Shan put a lot of trust in Zhuge Liang and a few other officials to run things for him, and after Zhuge died he continued this policy of more or less delegating things to his officials. While this worked out since a lot of those guys were competent, it did inspire a lot of factionalism and lack of cooperation between different elements in the Shu bureaucracy and the whole thing coasted mostly off the efforts of brilliant people; in 252 it was Fey Yi who was said to be able to do a full day's work in one morning so he could spend the rest of the day holding parties and loving around. When Fei Yi got killed due to stupid poo poo the mantle of "super smart guy who will keep this poo poo going" passed on to more and more incompetent and openly corrupt people until you had it fall on Chen Zi and Huang Hao (who was a PERFIDIOUS EUNUCH) who were corrupt assholes who politically isolated their enemies, including the highest ranking military dude Jiang Wei who, free from Fei Yi's oversight, had spent this time throwing all of shu's military assets in a bonfire, and then Jiang Wei responded to this by throwing a fit and behaving more independently, which lead to him loving up their idiot-proof defensive plans, which meant when they got invaded by Wei they got completely wasted, and Liu Shan had wasted precious time hesitating so by the time the Shu responded to the invasion it was really too late and they lost despite their incredibly defensible position. so I don't think Liu Shan was like, porridge brained level stupid but he was kind of useless, generally.
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Mar 5, 2021 12:00
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Thanks! That's super interesting to read. Was there any reasoning behind Zhuge Liang not instating any court historians? Also for those mod inclined. MTU just published an update with completed art for the daughters of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, Guan Yinping and Zhang Xueer respectively.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:22
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i just tried my first dong zhuo playthrough, this is very stressful lol. it's like yellow turbans except everyone hates you even more. you have lu bu which is nice but its really hard to play the game like a bad guy. I just want to make friends! I like how his missions are "kill yuan shu, yuan shao, and sun jian", easy, pretty hard, impossible. maybe if you sent a boat of troops downriver to stab sun jian in the face on like turn 5 that could have been a possibility.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:58
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Flipswitch posted:Thanks! That's super interesting to read. Was there any reasoning behind Zhuge Liang not instating any court historians? Zhuge Liang just did it himself which is why Shu's history is just "drat Zhuge Liang is just the greatest isn't he?" Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:i just tried my first dong zhuo playthrough, this is very stressful lol. it's like yellow turbans except everyone hates you even more. you have lu bu which is nice but its really hard to play the game like a bad guy. I just want to make friends! Now try and imagine it without the gates or the river being blocked.
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Mar 5, 2021 15:39
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That campaign is my favourite to do "Lu Bu offs Dong Zhou, Gao Shun & Zhang Liao vs the World."
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Mar 5, 2021 16:02
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 haha, I'm in danger! the other warlords just steadfastly refuse to infight leaving them all to endlessly send max stacks against me. the coalition is supposed to collapse god dammit not last another 20 years!
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Mar 5, 2021 18:23
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Serious Trivia put up a video talking about Cao Cao's start and a good amount of history behind the characters in his court. A good watch as always. I guess they'll be one of these for each of the 200 start characters.
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Mar 5, 2021 19:04
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The Yuan Shao video is out now too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=549hOwqami4
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Mar 6, 2021 00:20
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Mtu Wen Chou is being made into Shen Pei and apparently Yan Liang is becoming the drunk guy who lost his nose.
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Mar 6, 2021 14:00
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Tiler Kiwi posted:so I don't think Liu Shan was like, porridge brained level stupid but he was kind of useless, generally. I liked to see him acting a bit, like the Robert Graves version of Claudius. He's still alive at the end of it all because "hahaha I have to pretend I am dumb as soup or I am getting loving murdered". Also do you have any more cool stories of Three Kingdoms folks? I love hearing these sorts of summaries.
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Mar 6, 2021 14:28
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Josef bugman posted:I liked to see him acting a bit, like the Robert Graves version of Claudius. He's still alive at the end of it all because "hahaha I have to pretend I am dumb as soup or I am getting loving murdered". Let me tell you the tale of Zhang Zhao, the most stubborn man in ancient China. One of Wu's most pivotal advisors and Sun Quan's closest friends, he was instrumental in Wu's administration and always spoke his mind to Sun Quan. This resulted in lots of arguments but because Zhang Zhao was almost always right about it the two made up after Sun Quan realized he done hosed up. One time, after declaring Sun Quan's latest attempt to ally with someone foolhardly, Zhang Zhao locked himself up inside his esate for months. Sun Quan got pissed and tried to meet with him, but Zhang Zhao wouldn't have it. So Sun Quan buried the outside of his gate with dirt. So Zhang Zhao buried the inside of his gate with dirt. When Sun Quan's newest ally betrayed him, Sun Quan came to aplogize but Zhang Zhao still wasn't listening. So Sun Quan decided to set his gate on fire. Yeah. But even with part of his goddamn house on fire Zhang Zhao didn't leave. His family literally had to kidnap his rear end and force the two to sit down and talk it out and make things right.
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Mar 6, 2021 14:57
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Sun Quan in general was kind of a mess. Supposedly he had such an issue with alcohol that he instructed his guards and those close to him to ignore any orders given when drunk.
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Mar 6, 2021 15:11
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Hunt11 posted:Sun Quan in general was kind of a mess. Supposedly he had such an issue with alcohol that he instructed his guards and those close to him to ignore any orders given when drunk. Ordering your top bodyguard to strip in public was a totally cool thing to do. McTimmy fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 15:32
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Josef bugman posted:Also do you have any more cool stories of Three Kingdoms folks? I love hearing these sorts of summaries. Sun Quan once sent 10.000 men off to sea to look for some mystical islands, only 10% of them returned claiming to have found one of them. Demented old fool.
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Mar 6, 2021 15:36
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If sending your armies on a wild detour to colonize Taiwan is wrong, I don't want to be right
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Mar 6, 2021 16:16
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Hell I do that as Kong Rong
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Mar 6, 2021 16:27
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Josef bugman posted:I liked to see him acting a bit, like the Robert Graves version of Claudius. He's still alive at the end of it all because "hahaha I have to pretend I am dumb as soup or I am getting loving murdered". this is a good resource https://dongzhou3kingdoms.tumblr.com/totalwarprofiles this one is alright too but be aware this fellow has very strong opinions (that shu sucks, mostly) https://the-archlich.tumblr.com/character_analysis
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Mar 6, 2021 20:28
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Tiler Kiwi posted:this one is alright too but be aware this fellow has very strong opinions (that shu sucks, mostly) Guy's very knowledgeable but also very smug. Enjoy looking through his Tumblr from time to time though, hard recommend.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:31
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Flipswitch posted:Thanks! That's super interesting to read. Was there any reasoning behind Zhuge Liang not instating any court historians?. missed this but afaik the simplest answer is just they didn't have the resources and/or the organizational capacity to spend on that effort. its one of the first things that get cut when you're looking to be efficient.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:44
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