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Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



Merge/retrain rules actually. It could just use some auto management options.

Itís why in Rome/M2 you werenít just doomstacking. When your best units get ground down far from home you have to make an actual choice on how to proceed.

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alex314
Nov 22, 2007


R2 DeI does similar thing: you have 3 types of pops in any settlement, representing nobles, citizen and the rest. So if you roll with elite stack then replenishing the losses will take ages while local noble population gets built from 0. There's some messing about with it, where the game decides you either can replenish with all of your units or none (that's how it feels to me), so I wish I could just designate who should refill.

Funky See Funky Do
Aug 20, 2013
STILL TRYING HARD

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Merge/retrain rules actually. It could just use some auto management options.

Itís why in Rome/M2 you werenít just doomstacking. When your best units get ground down far from home you have to make an actual choice on how to proceed.

I never got around to playing M2 but it's for things like this that RTW was the most fun and interesting campaign even all these years later. That you could actually destroy a faction by blockading its ports was incredible. The AI played by the exact same rules you did. I don't know that I'd feel the same way going back but at the time it was engaging in a way the modern ones can't quite recapture.

I'm sure I'd see right through the AI now and it pose no challenge to me at all but going from AoE2 to RTW totally blew my mind at the time.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.




Funky See Funky Do posted:


I'm sure I'd see right through the AI now and it pose no challenge to me at all but going from AoE2 to RTW totally blew my mind at the time.
I'm going to post some "the player wins random battles [i.e, the "random battle" feature, not random campaign fights] by doing absolutely nothing" videos. Just to illustrate how stupid any "hey, if we turn arcade-mode battles on and micro-manage extensively, this unit is totally OP" takes are.

Communist Thoughts
Jan 7, 2008

0.000% of Communism has been built.
Evil, child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit eating grin.

All he has managed to do is make himself *sad*.

Instead of building communism, he now builds a precise model of this grotesque, duplicitous world.





alex314 posted:

R2 DeI does similar thing: you have 3 types of pops in any settlement, representing nobles, citizen and the rest. So if you roll with elite stack then replenishing the losses will take ages while local noble population gets built from 0. There's some messing about with it, where the game decides you either can replenish with all of your units or none (that's how it feels to me), so I wish I could just designate who should refill.

Yeah and it leads to some nice mechanical stuff like Romans being OP for being able to recruit strong infantry from the proles but lacking the super elite warrior class of barbarian nobles.
Also makes Sparta interesting since they split it as spartans, the other tribes and the helots.

Spartas main strength in battle is much higher stamina on its hoplites but losing them is super painful since it takes a long time to produce Spartans so they end up becoming eclipsed by allied tribes and conquered auxiliaries which the reforms reflect

Man, I love DeI. I wish they could get the turn times and loading to not be huge though

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010





My current Sly Fox of Jing campaign is going places, Liu Bei is Emperor and Liu Biao retired to be the Grand Excellency of the Masses.


Absolutely huge battles between a gigantic Kingdom of Wei and my army of vassals.

e: done!

Flipswitch fucked around with this message at 21:56 on May 3, 2021

DaysBefore
Jan 24, 2019



Auto replenishment is a super handy for rolling around dropkicking nerds from one end of the map to the other but I dunno, I like how the old system made losing men in your best and/or favourite units feel more impactful. I could be fist deep in Mordor during a Third Age campaign but if my best guys get hosed up I gotta run away and replace them. Made things feel a little more strategic.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


DaysBefore posted:

Auto replenishment is a super handy for rolling around dropkicking nerds from one end of the map to the other but I dunno, I like how the old system made losing men in your best and/or favourite units feel more impactful. I could be fist deep in Mordor during a Third Age campaign but if my best guys get hosed up I gotta run away and replace them. Made things feel a little more strategic.

Yeah, and made some pyrrhic losses as the defender feel good too. Now everything just heals to full health in a turn or two.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



I kinda feel like its a chicken/egg thing with the reinforcements/taking losses thing. If the AI was better in that it didnt need to spam a billion stacks to be competitive, I wouldnt mind as much if my units took longer to replenish. But as it is these days, I would rather have faster replenishment because the AI is just constantly at your throat.

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

Good night, sweet prince, And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest

I definitely miss auto-replen in RTW. The problem is really with auto-resolve: you can't hold those expensive units back in auto-resolve so they get chipped down quick even when you're just auto-resolving clear wins. So I end up fighting more uncompetitive battles manually, which makes the campaign take forever. It really just ends up being another reason for me to not recruit high end units.

Edit: Getting towards the end of Three Kingdoms 2010, and it can't be overstated how much of my desire for TK games comes from wanting to fix the timeline so so many cool people don't die for Liu Bei. Pang Tong deserved better.

Also one thing CA didn't really capture about these battles is how many of them were multi-day affairs that ended when one side ran out of supplies or had their supplies captured or destroyed. Can't blame them since Total War doesn't really have a way to show prolonged stalemate-type battles, but it might be neat if there were supply points or trains for armies that showed up behind the starting area and could be raided to cause morale penalties.

Randallteal fucked around with this message at 06:26 on May 4, 2021

Vagabong
Mar 2, 2019


It'd be a nice quality of life feature to be able to mark units out as reserves in auto-resolve; discount them from affecting battle results but also ensure they don't take any casualties. Even in later TW games with automatic replenishment you occasionally end up obliged to fight lop-sided battles because a wounded elite unit will be destroyed in the auto-resolve results.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



Warhammer autoresolve will delete entire full health units in a clear victory autoresolve while everyone else takes no losses

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Warhammer autoresolve will delete entire full health units in a clear victory autoresolve while everyone else takes no losses
And have lords and heroes go from full health to a pixel of health while no other units take any more than 5% casualties. It makes no sense.

Kobal2
Apr 29, 2019


Medieval 2 remaster when ?

(actually I lie, what I really want is Medieval 3 Kingdoms, but that would still be methadone to my heroin)

Communist Thoughts
Jan 7, 2008

0.000% of Communism has been built.
Evil, child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit eating grin.

All he has managed to do is make himself *sad*.

Instead of building communism, he now builds a precise model of this grotesque, duplicitous world.





rise of islam TW with playable Muhammad when

alex314
Nov 22, 2007


I did 20 hours od Rome remaster, I'm probably about 10 hours from finishing the campaign. I like that archers no longer have pinpoint accuracy for high angle shots. Definitely don't enjoy phalanxes being able to switch spear points so fast and massacre my cavalry that rearcharged them. Still I'm having fun, pretty nice to get one of TW games where you can just go forth and conquer. No point in building tall if you can max out all of your provinces without issues.

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008




Communist Thoughts posted:

rise of islam TW with playable Muhammad when

They get all they way to just before release before someone tells them that showing him is a bad idea so he ends up just being a bit of calligraphy that runs around the battlefield gibbing people

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Do what Iranian/Turkish art does for Muhammad and his family. Make them hooded robes with glowing white light where their face and hands would stick out.

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

Agean90 posted:

They get all they way to just before release before someone tells them that showing him is a bad idea so he ends up just being a bit of calligraphy that runs around the battlefield gibbing people

That way it can feel as though we are playing a dominions total war game which would be amazing.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



The actual life of Muhammad part isn't that good for a total war game, just start it with Abu Bakr. Muhammad didn't even conquer all of Arabia. Abu Bakr is the TW-style start.

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008



Terrible Opinions posted:

Do what Iranian/Turkish art does for Muhammad and his family. Make them hooded robes with glowing white light where their face and hands would stick out.

i don't know about the iranians, but the turks don't do that. they just draw him as a guy

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Looks like this is indeed mainly an Iranian Shia thing and most of the art is actually Ali. Still cool looking.

achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

psst you wanna do a communism?


Play RTWR and it just makes me realize how few factions were actually in that game

Breetai
Nov 6, 2005

Mah spoon is too big!


achillesforever6 posted:

Play RTWR and it just makes me realize how few factions were actually in that game

True, but I'd argue that the factions are so different from one another (more so than in the more modern games) that faction diversity is much greater overall.

yikes!
Jul 5, 2006




Soiled Meat

Breetai posted:

True, but I'd argue that the factions are so different from one another (more so than in the more modern games) that faction diversity is much greater overall.

I assume you're excluding warhammer because it's not real or w/e, but do you really think rtw1 factions are more diverse than 3k?

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




yikes! posted:

I assume you're excluding warhammer because it's not real or w/e, but do you really think rtw1 factions are more diverse than 3k?

Absolutely! You've got Crazy Ahistoric Ancient Egypt, Carthage, Rome, Greece/Macedon and various barbarians. In 3K you have Han, Nanman (which are super cool don't get me wrong) and Yellow Turbans.

Meyers-Briggs Testicle
Aug 13, 2012



HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Absolutely! You've got Crazy Ahistoric Ancient Egypt, Carthage, Rome, Greece/Macedon and various barbarians. In 3K you have Han, Nanman (which are super cool don't get me wrong) and Yellow Turbans.

this is what rtw fans actually believe

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




The 3K factions share so many units though.

Jamwad Hilder
Apr 17, 2007

surfin usa

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

The 3K factions share so many units though.

True, but except for the Romans, RTW factions barely have any different units. Macedon for example has four tiers of pikemen, four tiers of cavalry, peltasts, and archers. You won't even get the higher tiers of pikemen and cavalry for like 80 turns so really most of your game is spent using the same 6-8 units. In Barbarian invasion there are even less.

I guess there are mercenaries but those are generally just guys you can already get but wearing green tunics.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Jamwad Hilder posted:

True, but except for the Romans, RTW factions barely have any different units. Macedon for example has four tiers of pikemen, four tiers of cavalry, peltasts, and archers. You won't even get the higher tiers of pikemen and cavalry for like 80 turns so really most of your game is spent using the same 6-8 units. In Barbarian invasion there are even less.

I guess there are mercenaries but those are generally just guys you can already get but wearing green tunics.

Egypt gets camel riders and chariots and poo poo, Macedon and Greece get phalanxes, cavalry and archers, Carthage gets elephants. Barbarians perform very differently to everyone east of them, and that's without even mentioning any of the horse people.

You get a much more different feel with some factions than others in RTW from their unit lists. 3K makes its differentiation through faction mechanics and officers.

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008


There's six, sort of. Han, Yellow Turbans, Jin, Mandate Turbans, Bandits and Nanman. But Jin barely counts and is sequestered to its own start date anyway.

ShootaBoy
Jan 6, 2010

Anime is Bad.
Except for Pokemon, Valkyria Chronicles and 100% OJ.


Do we have to have the same tired discussion every other week?

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.




Jamwad Hilder posted:

True, but except for the Romans, RTW factions barely have any different units. Macedon for example has four tiers of pikemen, four tiers of cavalry, peltasts, and archers. You won't even get the higher tiers of pikemen and cavalry for like 80 turns so really most of your game is spent using the same 6-8 units. In Barbarian invasion there are even less.
I've re-read this like three times, trying to figure out what each part is saying on its own and how they are connected to each other.

I give up. Explain what you mean?

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface


Hair Elf

I think they're saying that the non-Roman factions tend to have rosters that are pretty thin when you look at them in terms of unit classes rather than unit types total.

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



The basic Han factions in 3K have:
  • Non-Shielded Spearmen
  • Shielded Spearmen
  • Shielded Swordsmen
  • Shielded Axemen
  • Unshielded Two-Handed Swordsmen
  • Shielded Melee Cavalry
  • Unshielded Charge Cavalry
  • Archers
  • Crossbowmen
  • Three different kinds of artillery/siege machines
  • Hybrid Archer/Spearmen
Most of those have three tiers.

The Nanman and Yellow Turbans have dramatically different rosters with different strengths and weaknesses, even if they all have "Shielded Spearmen" and "Non-Shielded Spearmen" they all behave and perform differently in battle.

Rome: Total War factions like Greeks/Macedon/Diadochi have:
  • Pikemen (that all behave and perform exactly the same as each other)
  • Cavalry
  • Some ranged units

Romans have:
  • Roman style infantry (three varieties)
  • lovely ranged units
  • lovely cavalry

So yes obviously Rome: Total War has the vastly superior unit variety.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Because of how they used by the various factions. A Roman army will be different from a Greek one, while my Wei army will be exactly the same as my Wu because the best strategy for the two factions is the same.

Like all that matters for the Han is whatever infantry, bows, charge cavalry, trebuchets.

Eimi fucked around with this message at 14:16 on May 5, 2021

Jamwad Hilder
Apr 17, 2007

surfin usa

Xander77 posted:

I've re-read this like three times, trying to figure out what each part is saying on its own and how they are connected to each other.

I give up. Explain what you mean?

I'm saying that a faction that has militia pikemen, pikemen, slightly better pikemen, and Royal Pikemen is not roster diversity and that slowly unlocking different pikemen over 100 turns is uninteresting.

Then I said that the rosters in the expansion (Barbarian Invasion) are even worse. For example the Saxon roster in that game has 8 units. 9 if you include General's Bodyguard as a unit.

alex314
Nov 22, 2007


There's also chariots, elephants, and SCREECHING WOMEN!

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Eimi posted:

Because of how they used by the various factions. A Roman army will be different from a Greek one, while my Wei army will be exactly the same as my Wu because the best strategy for the two factions is the same.

Like all that matters for the Han is whatever infantry, bows, charge cavalry, trebuchets.
Okay, thats fair. However a Han army will be different than a YT that will be different than a Nanman. I feel like the differences between those three is on par with the differences between Rome, Greeks, and Barbarians.

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Agean90
Jun 28, 2008




Also while factions in 3K have the same units they generally don't get access to all of them due to being gated behind the tech tree. So you can end up using different units throughout the game because the different starting areas make certain branches better than others which means you unlock the higher tier units of that type earlier than a different faction, who's researching differently.

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