|
So I bought FOTS first, but it felt like trying to watch Star Wars from Empire Strikes Back without having seen A New Hope. There's all these units that you're given right at the start and unless you'd played Shogun 2 first off the bat, it's really throwing you in the deep end a bit. ...But it looked cool as poo poo so I bought Shogun 2 anyway. So far, I'm digging it! I'm starting off as Shimazu and wanting to know how best to build an army. At the moment since everything's at an Ashigaru level, Bow Ashigaru seem fairly useless for offence, but really great for defence. My Yari Ashigaru are even less useful than Cannon Fodder, but my Katana Samurai slaughter the poo poo out of everything. So I'm thinking of building an army of Yari Ashigaru to take the first hits and tie up the enemy, then use my Katana guys to smash the flanks while my Yari are dutifully getting slaughtered for me. I suppose I could have Bow Ashigaru at the back peppering the battlefield, but...meh? How big of an army do I need to be useful? (I know the answer should almost always be "as big as you can" but realistically speaking...). I was thinking 3 Yari to 2 Katana? (Note: I'm aware this post may be full of Newbie mistakes, hence asking questions  )
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 13:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 02:55 |
|
|
Especially early on you really can't afford to use anything but ashigaru as the backbone of your forces. Good news is, neither can the enemy! Yari ashigaru become really solid frontliners as they get experience, and using spear wall they can even hold pretty well against samurai. Your katana samurai will definitely be the killers but you can afford to have only 2-4 units of them in your entire army. I like having at least 4 units of bow ashigaru because they can really slaughter enemies by focus firing, even on the attack. Consider getting a stables early and picking up a couple units of light cavalry just for flank charges and chasing down routing troops. They really shouldn't be relied on for anything more serious than that, though (although they have an anti-cavalry bonus that makes them pretty good for taking on general's bodyguards).
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 13:48
|
|
|
The Shimazu are also good for gathering resources, try and get a good hold over "your" island before expanding and it will really help. Also, make sure to keep a reserve army somewhere, the problem is that the AI likes to go and attack your less defended provinces later if you start invading them, and their fleets seem to have the ability to teleport.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 16:05
|
|
|
Also as the Shimazu you're pretty well-positioned to get into the naval trade game if you feel like dealing with that - it nets a pretty decent income eventually, but it might strain your resources a bit early on and it also requires you to figure out naval combat which is kinda tricky. Basic quick and dirty summary to Shogun 2 naval combat: Medium bunes are your infantry. Use them to board enemy bunes and shoot at enemy bunes currently engaged in melee with your other bunes. Kobayas are your cavalry. Shoot at engaged medium bunes to soften them up and convince them to surrender the melee. If you're dedicated to your navy, make flaming arrows a priority - flaming arrows into an engaged bune is the equivalent of flank charging on land. That's the basics. Everything else is mostly variations on the theme.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 17:47
|
|
|
Even if the enemy has samurai you should just drown them in superior amounts of peasants early, samurai aren’t really worth it until later. Spear ashigaru can hold the line for your peasant archers, and also for your extra stickmen to flank.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 22:34
|
|
|
Also, if tempted by the Jesus Juice the muskets are better at holding the walls of your fortresses or chipping at the backs or flanks of the melee units rather than being used as frontal ranged troops. They'll get hosed unless you baby sit their flanks constantly.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 23:37
|
|
|
Wasn’t there a good mod that added katana ashigaru?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 01:46
|
|
|
Billzasilver posted:Wasn’t there a good mod that added katana ashigaru? I think that's illegal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 01:51
|
|
|
Ikko Ikki get them from the start of the campaign.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 01:57
|
|
|
Do the Oda get them as well? Or an equivalent unit? Since their MO is all about ashigaru
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 04:58
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:Do the Oda get them as well? Or an equivalent unit? Since their MO is all about ashigaru Oda get enhanced Ashigaru but not loan swords, and with the unit packs they get long pike ashigaru who are pretty much phalanxes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:03
|
|
|
oda are the closest weve gotten to pike and shot except maybe empire in warhammer
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:06
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:oda are the closest weve gotten to pike and shot except maybe empire in warhammer They're also brutal as gently caress; I've run pure ashigaru armies with Oda and just killed motherfuckers like crazy with long yari, guns, and bows. toasterwarrior fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Jan 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:15
|
|
|
I alwahys see praise for FotS, not a peep on, uh... the other one, "Rise" of the samurai? Is it any good?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:19
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:I alwahys see praise for FotS, not a peep on, uh... the other one, "Rise" of the samurai? Is it any good? Rise is pretty good, but it's not as unique as FotS so it doesn't get talked about as much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:28
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:I alwahys see praise for FotS, not a peep on, uh... the other one, "Rise" of the samurai? Is it any good? It’s supposed to be good but boring
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:35
|
|
|
H13 posted:Cheers for the suggestions. Get both - FOTS is a neat game and unique among TW titles, but Shogun 2 is still one of the best ones titles, period. No other TW game has had a unit roster as well balanced as Shogun 2. SeanBeansShako posted:Also, if tempted by the Jesus Juice the muskets are better at holding the walls of your fortresses or chipping at the backs or flanks of the melee units rather than being used as frontal ranged troops. They'll get hosed unless you baby sit their flanks constantly. Yeah also bear in mind that while muskets are AMAZING at fortress defense, they are borderline useless at fortress offense. The guns aren't powerful enough to pierce the walls, and unlike arrows can't be arced over them. Also if you have a hill, muskets can fire over the heads of your own units to hit the enemy, which makes them a bit easier to use in open field combat, rather than trying to maneuver them around to the flanks. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Jan 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:44
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:I alwahys see praise for FotS, not a peep on, uh... the other one, "Rise" of the samurai? Is it any good? I liked Rise. The thing to keep in mind is that there are 3 tiers of units, from the bottom tier (levies? Its been a bit since i played) which are basically Japanese skavenslaves in terms of size and morale, to samurai which are melee and ranged monsters but have the smallest unit sizes in the campaign, so battles end up a lot faster and bloodier than vanilla's. Its a fun take on vanilla but it isn't too different, which makes sense because despite the larger time difference, the Gempei War is going to be a lot more similar to the Sengoku period than Sengoku period is to the Boshin War.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:48
|
|
|
Keep in mind Rise is a $10 DLC campaign whereas Fall is a $30 standalone expansion. There's a big difference in scope between the two. For the price Rise is super good though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 06:01
|
|
|
well, i went on a tear and picked up all the shogun dlc. I hope this game clicks for me!
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 06:33
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:well, i went on a tear and picked up all the shogun dlc. I hope this game clicks for me! Some people may say that no-dachi samurai are just slower cavalry. These people are wrong, for in the era when the sword is king they have brought the biggest sword, making their rear charges a more satisfying shower of blood to watch.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 07:46
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:I alwahys see praise for FotS, not a peep on, uh... the other one, "Rise" of the samurai? Is it any good? If you are on the fence on this, check Shalcar's LP, it's good.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 12:37
|
|
|
The big deal about muskets in Shogun is their morale damage right? Are there any good strategies that exploit that and actually work, other than good old hit the flanks? Which, if I’m going to go to the effort, there are much easier and less squishy units to do it with.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 15:33
|
|
|
H13 posted:
John Charity Spring posted:Especially early on you really can't afford to use anything but ashigaru as the backbone of your forces. Good news is, neither can the enemy! Yari ashigaru become really solid frontliners as they get experience, and using spear wall they can even hold pretty well against samurai. This, definitely. I recall successfully (if barely) defending under-garrisoned fortresses with spear ashigaru against samurai by just holding them slightly back from the walls and assuming the spearwall formation. Any troops that climb up the wall get poked to death individually.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 15:38
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:The big deal about muskets in Shogun is their morale damage right? Are there any good strategies that exploit that and actually work, other than good old hit the flanks? Which, if I’m going to go to the effort, there are much easier and less squishy units to do it with. While muskets do morale damage (mainly due to all their kills coming at once in the volley but with a long reload), the real benefit of muskets is that their shots have massive armour penetration, so they deal a reliable number of kills per volley against any unit. They are the anti-armour/anti-elite ranged unit, although they are also exceptional against cavalry, generals and heroes due to the reduced unit size and larger model. If you can time it right having the muskets out the front, holding their fire until just before the lines meet and then having them withdraw behind the melee units you have behind them can be incredibly effective against high value armies like Naginata or Katana Samurai. This is especially useful if you lack the numbers to flank with them. Alternatively, hills let them fire over the top of your frontline (and potentially into their backline/general) and that is absolutely devastating. They don't sweep armies by themselves or anything (Matchlock Monks though...), but they are recruit anywhere and pretty cheap, plus unbeatable on castle defence (or defence in general). You won't need many units of them, as only the front ranks fire so you stretch them long and thin and get a lot of coverage for not a lot of unit.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 16:42
|
|
|
Fuligin posted:well, i went on a tear and picked up all the shogun dlc. I hope this game clicks for me! In the past couple months I've completed a Shogun 2, FotS and Rome 2 campaign and I enjoyed them in pretty much that order.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 16:46
|
|
|
shalcar posted:Honestly the only real issue with the naval combat is that ships don't replenish. All the same issues used to happen with land armies when you had to rebuild the unit, now you don't even really notice autoresolve being a bit stupid on land fights unless it nails your general unit or something hard to replenish. I remember in early Rome 2, the autoresolve just made you take flat casualties to all your units. You could never use autoresolve if you had artillery, or elephants, or sometimes even just cav, because you'd lose 24/200 of your lovely basic spearmen but also 24/24 of your expensive-rear end elephants if you ever dared to autoresolve a small siege.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 21:02
|
|
|
Are the individual faction packs for Shogun 2 worth it? Ikko Ikki and Otomo seems somewhat interesting
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 21:09
|
|
|
Not the ones for FotS unless you especially wanna start in a different location, but the ones for vanilla are decent yeah. They all have fairly different playstyles from the base game factions, Ikko Ikki especially.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 21:12
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:Are the individual faction packs for Shogun 2 worth it? Ikko Ikki and Otomo seems somewhat interesting The Otomo campaign is fun because everyone hates you, but its OK because you'll be running so many matchlocks that no one will even get to the walls of your castles, let alone be able to take territory. It's a long game of bite and hold, combined with Portuguese Tercios to give you some extra flavor. I find them to be a fun change of pace. Haven't tried the ikko ikki but theyre annoying as hell on the campaign so i assume thats their gameplay style.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 21:16
|
|
|
Total warhammer has the best rifle units of any total war game
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 21:18
|
|
|
If you like to use mods with FOTS faction packs sometimes are needed.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 21:18
|
|
|
The Mori pirates are awesome since they're basically light samurai with the ability to deploy right in front of the enemy lines.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 21:20
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:Are the individual faction packs for Shogun 2 worth it? Ikko Ikki and Otomo seems somewhat interesting Ikko Ikki get scream monks that are very good. My favorite Shogun 2 memory is getting ambushed by a much larger army and still winning because my boys shouted mean words and scared everyone away. The faith stuff's neat too, and there's a lot of fun flavor in playing a popular uprising against the samurais. edit: I'm not actually sure if the monk's warcry does in fact hurt morale, but it's a real loving good AoE debuff at any rate. TGLT fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jan 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 21:22
|
|
|
Don Gato posted:The Otomo campaign is fun because everyone hates you, but its OK because you'll be running so many matchlocks that no one will even get to the walls of your castles, let alone be able to take territory. It's a long game of bite and hold, combined with Portuguese Tercios to give you some extra flavor. I find them to be a fun change of pace. Ikko ikki and Otomo feel pretty similar on the campaign map because you're always drowning in religious unrest and everybody hates you. The later doesn't matter all that much because Realm Divide ensures everybody will hate you by about the midpoint anyway. The former will likely slow down your expansion. Ikko ikki do have one ace up their sleeve in that if an Ikko rebellion takes a city, they capture it for you so your agents are actually wizards who summon expendable shock troops from the ether. Also since you're not technically a Daimyo, all your samurai units are called Ronin instead. These are technically inferior units but not by much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2018 12:48
|
|
|
New Butt Order posted:Also since you're not technically a Daimyo, all your samurai units are called Ronin instead. These are technically inferior units but not by much. Funnily enough each Ronin soldier is superior to their samurai equivalent, but the units are smaller. In some cases this makes them far deadlier, with Bow Ronin being arguably the strongest ranged unit in the game at a pretty competitive price needing a fraction of the tech.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2018 12:52
|
|
|
All this shogun talk has given me a hankering to play some FOTS. Whats some recommended mods to play with these days?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 22:54
|
|
|
If someone were telling me they were only ever going to play 2 campaigns in Shogun 2, I'd tell them to make sure that one of them was as Ikko Ikki. They are just on a completely different planet, and their enormous ashigaru units and cheap swords make them just a blast to play with. It's like you start the game on Realm Divide and the economy game actually matters because you can't rely on cushy trade deals to fund your army.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 23:09
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:Are the individual faction packs for Shogun 2 worth it? Ikko Ikki and Otomo seems somewhat interesting Do note that picking up the Otomo significantly changes the early game for the Shimazu, since they go from a minor clan on the battlemap to a default Christian faction sticking their gribbly Jesus fingers in everything. On the plus side, you can get a Nanban port pretty early if you can take them down quick. If you're playing as someone in eastern or central Japan, they've got a higher than average chance of coming out on top of the early game clusterfuck and being Those Fuckers With Twenty Samurai Stacks by the time you get to Kyoto. It adds a bit of challenge, to be sure.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 02:55 |
|
|
ughhhh posted:All this shogun talk has given me a hankering to play some FOTS. Whats some recommended mods to play with these days? Artillery mod and the bayonet mod, beyond that I'm not so sure what's still updated
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2018 10:32
|
|