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Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Yo they're porting the original Rome to the iPad, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSzyfO0vhXw

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Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Enemy stacks, or rebel stacks? Rebels tend to sit around and wait to get attacked.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Hey can anyone link to the mod that removes the colour filter from Attila? I'm having a weirdly tough time finding it.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Matchlocks are worse than bows in a straight fight. Their strengths are that they do morale damage, and basically ignore armour. In the initial charge you should try to get a few volleys into whatever samurai the enemy has. After the lines have engaged you should try and flank around with them, and fire into the melee from behind the enemy's line; they're great for causing routs. They're also weirdly good in siege defences, I'm not sure why.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Rome II's unresolved problems are mostly to do with the UI. Being unable to see unit counts at a glance, being unable to see skill trees, and the general crapness of the building browser are the big ones. You can generally see the economic effects of buildings in the web-based browser, but it's really hard to work out recruitment dependencies.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
In my first ever game of E:TW I attacked and conquered France on turn 5. It was not super well-balanced.

I then turned off taxes to deal with the unrest, and when I remembered to turn them on again like 70 years later there were 120 million people in France.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

GrossMurpel posted:

I suppose this sale is as good a time as any to ask all these things I wanted to know: How much content does the TW:WH base game have? What factions are playable without DLC?
And how are the campaigns? From what I understand, they are more asymmetrical now and feature actual quest-like goals instead of every campaign ending by you conquering the entire map?
What are the battles like? I'm too stupid to really think of any genius strategies so usually in TW games I just have heavy infantry or spearmen (depending on the game) holding the line and then charge into the sides and backs of the enemies when they engage me. Do the different unit types, spells, and playstyles in the game mix that up a lot?
And lastly: What are the sieges like? From what I understand, they now feature you trying to get over a singular wall defended by the enemy which sounds like a good change considering how loving annoying it is to navigate with large formations inside a city.

E: Oh boy I almost forgot! How strong do heroes become once they're maximum leveled up? I do love RPG progressions where you dudes become ridiculously powerful.

Your impressions are generally correct.

The base game lets you play as the Empire, the dwarves, the vampire counts, and the orcs. A free DLC lets you play as the Bretonnians (though you have to go to the store page to activate the content, it doesn't just appear in the game). There's heaps to work with there, a lot of variety. The DLCs add some extra units and starting options to the original four factions, and also let you play as a further three factions: Chaos, the wood elves, and the beastmen. Chaos sucks but the other two are great, if you like the way they play.

Good old hammer-and-anvil still works, but it suits some factions way better than others. It's basically impossible as the dwarves, for example, but the dwarves are tough enough that they don't need to flank--they can just stand there and win. Unless you're planning on getting into MP tournaments you can basically keep on playing the way you used to; I've never gotten much out of magic, and I get by alright.

A max level hero that has been focused on combat is extremely dangerous, and some of them can basically solo early-game armies, especially if you use a mod for extra skill points (as a lot of people do).

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Can't you just cross the Med on a normal boat?

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Watchtowers give you visibility over the campaign map. Forts give an army an okay-ish defensive position with some weak walls, and some "streets" to guide the enemy. Also I think you can use forts to make your merchants invulnerable to enemy merchants.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
It's tricky to get a feel for what's going wrong. Rome II introduced the control scheme (or at least, made it the default) where you can just left-click and hold to drag units around, it can sometimes cause you to drag a unit around when you actually wanted to drag a selection box around a bunch of dudes. Is that it?

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
The Warhammer blood DLC adds occasional random campaign events where every faction gets +20 charge bonus for eight turns, or something in that vein, every now and then.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

NewMars posted:

Also they've replaced the internet browser with an in-game encyclopedia! Sadly it's not nearly as extensive: seems like there's no navigation from section to section (I. E. you click on a building and get it's entire build tree, but there's no section that lists all the buildings.

Can you see the skill trees anywhere yet?

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
I'm getting back into Shogun II (as the Mori), and the campaign's going okay so far. But I'm running into the same issue as always: every ten turns or so, a faction on the other end of the country will declare war on me out of nowhere. This will happen, and then like twenty turns later a fleet will drop a deathstack on my coast somewhere. It's just now happened with the Hattori, who are large, distant, and my former trade partner. Why are they doing this? I'm above-average in the strength rankings, my leader is honourable as hell, I'm not Christian, I haven't betrayed anyone, they just decide they hate me. Wouldn't it make sense to conquer someone closer?

Also no-one will ever make peace, ever, because being at war is a giant opinion malus that dwarfs everything else, and AIs make decisions based on how cool they think you are, and not on their best interests. Except when that decision is "Should I declare war?", I suppose.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

Britannia is somehow the most Empire-like of all the new games, at least until we see what Three Kingdoms looks like.

???

Anyway, I'm looking forward to ToB, more than I expected to. I've recently been playing Shogun II again and it's really making me appreciate a simplified game the AI can halfway handle.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
They're tiny, though; most towns will get one unit of ashigaru, and one miniature unit of katana samurai. Only the really high-level buildings give garrison, and then it's usually one unit each.

On the plus side, you can just recruit bow ashigaru anywhere, without a general, and hope for the best.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Important details of Realm Divide: the diplomatic penalty will make every faction declare war on you within about five turns, including all your vassals. This will happen again when you actually take Kyoto, so any vassals you make in that period (between passing the fame threshold and taking Kyoto) will betray you. Any vassals you make after Kyoto should remain loyal.

As Blooming Brilliant said, the ideal play is to stop just before you hit the threshold and build up your economy. Research the level three farms and then spam markets all over. Get high-level metsuke managing all your most profitable towns. Fill up every trade route you can get your hands on, and get a couple fleets to defend them (basically impossible in the long run unless you have territory in the west). If possible, build up a war-chest. Make as many trade agreements as you can, but be mindful that you will lose all that income once things kick off.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

Fire Barrel posted:

On a slightly related note, I found Shogun 2's diplomacy to be one of its weaker/lacking aspects.

I'm a little way through a FotS campaign. I invaded the island of Tsushima and set up a pro-imperial vassal. THE NEXT TURN one of my loyal Imperialist allies declares war on the vassal (I guess because their strength rating was too low) and I have to break the alliance with the new guys, because the aggressive allies are in a position to sweep up a bunch of my land. The vassal immediately defects from team Imperial, and my forces get teleported back to the mainland. My other vassal declares war on me, which is honestly kind of understandable. About ten turns have passed, and the lovely allies have yet to actually attack Tsushima. Also, Christ, I forgot how slow armies are in this game.

edit: my other vassal took one of my territories, and then lost it to the ally.

Kazzah fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Mar 9, 2018

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
One of the long vids that just came out claims Thrones of Britannia ends with either a Viking invasion, or the Norman one, or both, depending on your difficulty

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Something I'm noticing in the vids so far is that replenishment on top-tier units is kinda dogshit, and replacing them isn't easy either. Which, I suppose, increases the consequences for getting them killed, and encourages you to use disposable units to protect elites much more than previously.

Also, since you have a slow-replenishing pool to recruit them out of, and units take a few turns to get up to full strength, I can imagine having a mini-stack of elite infantry hanging around permanently, expanding them with levies when it's time to do something. Recruiting a whole bunch of elites in a hurry just won't be feasible.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
FotS had the improved version of realm divide where all the other factions on your side permanently ally with you, I believe.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

Gadzuko posted:

Also confirming that Shogun 2 has amazing arrows and that's one of the main reasons I still go back and play it, you don't need bow monks. Just mass whatever arrows you can, samurai are death machines but even ashigaru can massacre dudes. Outside of Warhammer a S2 arrow barrage is my favorite thing to zoom in on in TW games.

I usually favour ashigaru, but bow warrior monks are just terrifying. You can put them on the walls in a siege battle and just forget about that part of the map. Naginata warrior monks I could take or leave.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

Gay Horney posted:

Khabib Tony is too beautiful too actually happen and we all know it. Tony at scout camp kicking bamboo dummies and smoking weed with Eddie Bravo ascending to a higher level of jiu jitsu nirvana vs the yang that is Khabib wrestling bears and suplexing Daniel Cormier ready to destroy the crazy mother fucker doing the real life equivalent of punching meat in a freezer

I see.

Anyway yeah, Napoleon's decent. In some ways you can see how the limited scope led them to Shogun II. Shame how the Prussians and Austrians have such uninspiring rosters, but the other three are fun and distinctive.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
They took agents out of ToB.

Or is that :thejoke:

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
MaTN has an hour long LP of Thrones of Britannia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io4ArXZet4o

So it turns out there are no more recruitment buildings: if you have unlocked a unit on the tech-tree, you can train it anywhere.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Shogun II did nothing wrong.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
I was a little surprised when, after unifying the northern third of the island, I declared war on mega-Wessex and instantly won a fame victory.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Only bug I've experienced was when I got in a fight in a really swampy province. The preview depicted a flat grassy plain, with some medium-sized forests here and there. When the battle loaded, there was a lake that took up about a quarter of the map, with really blotchy irregular edges. It didn't show up on the in-battle minimap either. Aside from the map stuff it worked just fine, it was impassable, and my units (and the AI) treated it as such.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

Hunt11 posted:

So is there anyway to stir up vassal kingdoms against their masters or in general create discord within a large kingdom?

You can just ask the boss to release a vassal, I managed to buy the freedom of one of Wessex's Welsh vassals right before I invaded.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

Beefeater1980 posted:

That point about singing so as to get pitched battles is a good one, you can do that in any one of the recent games except that if there is no relieving army, the garrison is usually pretty weak once attrition has kicked in.

Pitch-perfect battles

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
The patch is up! About 600 MB. It appears to have broken most, or even all, in-progress campaigns. I got a CtD.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf

Dramicus posted:

In Shogun 2 campaign, Yari Samurai were probably the best all-round melee troops to bring as they were armored, could withstand cavalry charges and would do decently well against sword infantry, giving you enough time to flank anything you couldn't outright defeat. Katana Samurai absolutely melted to cav charges.

I reckon yari samurai are terrible, they lose a one-on-one fight with ashigaru who are in spear-wall formation.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Play as the Mori and autoresolve all your boat fights. Or, go Christian and kill everything with fleets composed of like 2 cannon trade ships.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Can you believe you used to have to ASK everyone to trade with you, even though there are only benefits? I'm so glad trade has been automatic since 2018.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
The announcement is up.

The family tree is in again, and they've redone the Intrigue system, not unlike that of Attila.
There's also a patch:

quote:

-Agents skills have been completely reworked, rebalanced and are now culture-specific. They now have more actions, some of them having significant new effects
-Generals’ skills are also now culture specific
-Skill cards for agents, generals and military traditions have informative pips that show what the skill grants at each level
-Agent skills have been re-ordered to mimic the order of attributes in the character portrait
-Reinforcement range is now visible as an area, not only as blinking arrows
-Technology panels now have sounds
-In battle, ships in will now be able to leave their disembarking area by shifting in reverse, making room for more ships to land
-Champions have received a skill that directly buffs the bonus to unit experience per turn
-Levels 2 and 3 of Agent skills are now unlocked on the next agent level, instead of skipping a level. For instance, tier 1 skills are unlocked on levels 2/3/4, instead of the previous 2/4/6
-Battle loot implemented in field battles, granting different sums based on the upkeep cost of the defeated army and the action selected after victory
-Added more variety to generals in Empire Divided
-Number of household ancillaries has been increased from 1 to 3
-Number of character traits has been increased from 3 to 6

-Missile Range bonuses now actually work!
(Bunch of other bugfixes)

-Female cursus honorum grants attributes at higher levels
-GC Iceni start their campaign having military access with Dumnonii
-Starting loyalty has been decreased for all difficulty settings (0 on Easy, 0< on higher difficulty)
-The political traits Militarist and Expansionist have been nerfed, granting less loyalty
-A different version of the Family Tree, called Chain of Command, has been added to the Caesar in Gaul campaign. It contains fewer intrigues
-Start-pos characters have been rebalanced in all campaigns – many more were added, both historical and created for gameplay purposes
-New encyclopaedia page for Agents, available on right-click
-The Family Duty trait now disables character skills

There's also a bunch of visual improvements, including changes to the campaign map's lighting.

I don't plan on going back into Rome II in the near future, but this all sounds pretty good.

Edit: no info on the actual DLC yet, other than the fact it's called the Ancestors Update, and that might only be a reference to the family tree.

Kazzah fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jul 12, 2018

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
The new version of the beta broke my campaign save :(

Anyway, so far most of the changes they've applied have made the game harder, and it's great. It's slowly getting kind of Shogun 2-ey: you're just beset on all sides, and you have to constantly worry about unrest and betrayal, and the new recruitment system sort of brings back the old system in which you would be forced to roll around with partial stacks (especially when fighting a sudden, unexpected defence).

Also, while I did have one of my vassals attack the other, for the most part the AI seems less psychopathic. It declares war when there's territory it can plausibly take and hold. Dyfflin has a habit of invading across the Irish Sea, but that's a pretty short hop, and I haven't seen them lose their homeland because of it yet.

Also the text box for posting gets weird when you string "ffl" together, you can't move the text cursor through it.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
You enjoy the dead game then. My purchase history and command of history shows I'm not, I'm not turning increasingly miserable the more I see the cumulative flaws in the game, and the apparent complete rejection on CA's part to address them. Means these problems will likely stay in the coding and will be around in future games, just like the exploding tower issue was a carry over. It isn't wise to give illhistoric excuses for terrible programming. Defensive siegecraft on this game is completely ♥♥♥♥ed up. If this carries over to 3K it will murder the franchise, the Chinese aren't going to appreciate a contrast between interesting aesthetics but ♥♥♥♥♥♥ gameplay. By overpowering the siege towers on this game, keeping their movements unrealistic, their ability to offload a whole army in a minute or two, and no real sense of a fight or flight response coupled with no physical density when men jump off the towers into a mess of defenders (you can land a whole army in the same spot pretty much, without anything effecting the flow of guys leaping in after, never mind there should be a pile of 20 guys beneath you squashed to death, with you yourself being leaped on soon after.

To illustrate the problem of a siege tower, in this game, I refer you to the phenomena of the US Army Airborne 40 Foot Tower (I've jumped out of many):

(image)

Notice it is loaded up and designed almost identical to the game's siege tower? Those guys can't exit fast enough out if the tower, and they only gotta hand off a static line to the jump master upon exiting. Nothing slowing them down, and it takes a while to offload a platoon. Same with aircraft out side doors. They don't have the immediate threat of landing on 15-30 of their dream or injured comrades immediately below them with infinite waves of enemy surrounding them to intimidate them, in which death would be certain within seconds either from the enemy or 20 more fools from your own side instantly jumping on your head.

The way the game shows assaulting a wall is a absolute obscenity. The fact the very few who still bother to play this game don't notice this is very, very bad. Shows the players aren't invested in siege battles on the defensive, or want anything resembling historical accuracy or physics, or logic. There should be a strong advantage for any defender with walls and require much more troops to invest in a successful siege. You achieve this not by needing attacking armies but by making more realistic siege equipment. When it is more realistic players will put much more effort into defending settlements, with troops in a numerical minority, and will pay close attention to how they hold the walls.

Instead what we see are video replays on YouTube of absolute absurdities of people building multiple siege towers, rushing the walls, getting the whole army inside in a minute or two, and people not even bothering much to do what every army defending a wall prior to gunpowder did, mass on the walls but rather meet the invading army piecemeal inside the city a few units at a time..... and what is really really sad is that they are sooooooo proud of this style of fighting. OMFG what the hell people. That's not good, it is a clear sign that wall is symbolic at best, might as well be two girls holding a jump rope for your army to jump through. That is so bad, so very very very bad.

How the hell are we getting ready to enter into the age of fortifications and protracted battles with the Norman age, prolific castle builders, and Medieval 3, if we can't even pull off a siege correctly in this game involving towers? That isn't trolling, that is a dire warning from a very clear minded assessment of the game, which I had to play for a while to arrive at. I wasn't originally upset with the siege conditions of this game (beyond historical nitpicking, I can forgive a bit on that) but kept noticing of all TW games, this is the worst for defenders in sieges, save maybe Napoleon. Honestly, give me a good hill and forested area in Napoleon near a city and some militia to hold a building or two and I'd have a more realistic and longer lasting defense.

I'm not saying nerf other units, not saying stop axemen from hacking gates, or the other stuff or need some mechanic in making siege attrition longer or shorter. I'm saying just really focus hard on fixing the physics of siege towers, make them have weight, slower up hill, require them to be pushed, slow them to be stalled or delayed from a wall, have men hesitant about jumping into a bunch of defenders, have them hesitant about jumping into each other, have special density to death ratios on the walls causing panic with defenders and offensive troops, make sure density relates to morale (if too packed for example, the men can't fight so they panic and die quicker), and and absolutely not 4-5 units standing in the space meant for 1 or 2, with men away from the fighting squished against the wall swinging at nothing and dying for no apparent reason. You literally need some sort of density register tied into the ground of the ramp of the wall that hurts offensive troops and favors defenders when they try these sardines in a can offloading tactics. Heck, sardines in a can often have better spacing, given they obey the laws of physics.

If this is done, people will start smashing troops up against the walls when defending, and armies attacking will have to hit multiple points at once, and thus the need for victory points would go away.

As it is now, it is like a bunch of crack heads are having back alley turf wars over their drug supply in Mexico. I'm not even saying the drug dealers, I'm saying the drug users, deranged and high as hell. The game is fundamentally broken as it is. This small oversight, one user even suggested here it was intentional to speed up gameplay, murdered any interest many have to play a good defensive siege. A few maps have chokehold where it is still valid fun, but given this issue many are completely inept, the defensive structures, walls especially, don't match the logic for which they were apparently designed for, in keeping the enemy out. If you were a king, and knew the enemy could enter into your city full force under 2-3 minutes, would you even bother building the walls? That's literally the reason why walled cities until recently died off during the age of gunpowder. Guns could obliterate them very quickly, why bother? In this era, especially the Anglo-Saxon walled settlements, we are past the initial Viking shock, during the reconquest, walls are supposed to be very effective on infantry. It is supposed to be really, really hard later on as well, in the eras everyone keeps asking for, like The Hundred Years War, Medieval 3, the Norman Period.

Am I really the only one who has noticed this issue? Do you all not realize being careless now, carrying this over to these other games will destroy these games, that the game reviewers will utterly mock them far worst than ToB was laughed at? We are missing out on half of ancient warfare when we can't focus on good siege craft. It is a absolute joke on this game. It is disgusting, inexcusable, stop being ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in giving excuses. Demand it gets fixed. Sickening not to once you realize what is going on, and how if it doesn't get checked now will just carry over and really hurt us later in a bigger game, because nobody seemed to of noticed and said anything. Don't care about people's feelings or on the bell curve of the player base or the synergy of programming priority needs matching up on the time table handed t the team and the seaming need to prioritize other mechanisms first before moving on to the next title, rush rush rush..... that doesn't matter as much as making solid sieges, making it challenging for both sides. The non-siege battlemaps are rather plain and boring, you put all that effort into city building, that's the crucial point of long games, what will keep the player base, that's where you need to maximize your efforts. If you master this aspect, the intensity of the game dramatically increases. That's when people are busting their brain trying to figure out how to take these impossible strong points, or in holding them on a string budget as their army if off fighting elsewhere.

You have no idea how deeply disappointed I was to see absolutely no effort to fix these issues in the layers update blog. Just screams to me 3K is going to be a absolute failure. At some point you gotta move away from fast place Android style arena style gameplay and focus on the nitty gritty realism of war, as TW traditionally have done. You gotta make the elements of gameplay you add actually balance out realistically so players fight realistically. What is the point of having walls if the youtube videos next to never shoe people fighting in the most obvious and logical of places, on the walls? If you can't pull off something obvious like that, is it even worth bothering with the rest of the game? Is it even possible to get this through people's heads? Do you not see the hell the franchise as a whole will be put through if this mistake is carried over to other games, as far too many problems in total war games are do to shared codes being carried over?

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
For real, I noticed that guy because he can't post without mentioning the "siege tower fiasco" that's going to be the death of the franchise, if not all of PC gaming. It's in every post. :psyduck:

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
The big Thrones of Britannia update is a couple hours away, patch notes here. They've changed how all the faction-specific mechanics work, added in a territorial loyalty (and civil war) mechanic, given all buildings a dilemma in their final stage, put in a ton of balance changes, and added Warhammer's Rites system.

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
Jeez, the early game in ThroB is pretty difficult now. I had a Gwined game die because that other, allied Welsh faction betrayed me (after dragging me into a war with Mierce, which was still ongoing) and attacked with two stacks they couldn't possibly have fed. My enemies kept on inviting other factions into the fight, including Dyfflin, who sent a fleet at me. As far as I can tell it's basically essential to go into food debt until you have enough land to sustain a full stack.

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Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
FWIW the Total War reddit seems to have declared the outrage-brigade to be outside agitators, and turned on them.

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