Scots Wha Hae - Scotland's Independence Referendum

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Scots Wha Hae - Scotland's Independence Referendum

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

I knew England was to the right of Scotland, but I had no idea it was that stark until I saw the map.

Would an independent Scotland seek greater integration with the EU, or has that been downplayed as a result of the crisis?

# ¿ Jun 15, 2012 19:14

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 22:53

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Yeah, a more useful map would be movements that actually have enough pull to form governments at the regional/provincial level. That would basically be Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, right?

Elotana fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Feb 13, 2014

# ¿ Feb 13, 2014 19:45

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Pissflaps posted:

Surely a full, real, final Scottish constitution would have to be in place prior to Scotland becoming independent though?

Montenegro declared independence on 6/3/06 and adopted a constitution on 10/19/07. Lots of countries declare independence and don't get around to writing constitutions until years later, if they ever write them at all.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 16:36

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Pissflaps posted:

...then why do you think the SNP are in such a rush with their own?

Possibly to give people a starting point for debate? A publication of a draft of an interim document is hardly what I'd call a rush.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 18:56

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

How well do Scotland's laws already comport with the acquis? That 18 month figure always smelled like bullshit, but do they have a realistic case for beating Finland's record of 32 months?

I'm guessing that since they'd be splitting from an existing member, they'd simply duplicate existing UK law as it governs obscure, nitty-gritty administrative codes that aren't at issue in the separation, since that's how their bureaucracies already function. It would seem counterproductive to do things entirely from scratch.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2014 01:28

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Phlegmish posted:

There was also this guy, presumably from a Southeast Asian nation. Maybe a flag nerd will be able to help me out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Aceh_Movement

# ¿ Mar 30, 2014 18:10

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Separatist parties don't really tend to hang around too long, at least not in their original forms. Sinn Fein dominated Irish domestic politics for all of five years after independence before splitting into constituent groups. Or if you want more recent examples from farther abroad, look at the Baltic states. The Latvian Popular Front and Sajūdis both lost almost all their support by 1993. The Estonian Popular Front became the Centre Party, which has been a junior coalition partner a few times but hardly dominant.

I'd say it's more likely that the SNP will split and/or fade into a rump party of some kind rather than become silly BNP analogue.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2014 19:03

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Pissflaps posted:

You're saying the EU does *not* have a precedent for only allowing membership once certain conditions are met? Are you certain?

LemonDrizzle posted:

What are you talking about? When did the EU last admit a state that was seceding from another EU member state, had no currency of its own, and was without clear plans regarding its future currency?

No, seriously, where the gently caress did these two posts come from? One of you goes off and makes a ridiculously too-general straw man saying "you're saying the EU NEVER INSISTS ON ANY CONDITIONS? :smug:

" and the other goes and makes a too-specific one saying "show me an EU country where political and currency conditions were EXACTLY like hypothetical iScotland :smuggo:

"

Christ, I'm neither a Brit nor a Scot, I just have a vague academic interest in this issue, but the pro-UK shitposters make this thread an incredible chore to follow.

Elotana fucked around with this message at 22:21 on May 17, 2014

# ¿ May 17, 2014 21:50

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Of course it would be unique. You don't need to move the goal posts to make it so.

Delusibeta posted:

I would also be completely unsurprised if the EU sees this coming and blocks Scotland from entering until they drop the currency union proposals.

return0 posted:

The EU does *not* have a precedent for doing this, but *does* have a precedent for *not* doing this.

LemonDrizzle posted:

What are you talking about? When did the EU last admit a state that was seceding from another EU member state, had no currency of its own, and was without clear plans regarding its future currency?

Delusibeta says the EU will block Scotland on the basis of it not having an independent central bank. Return0 points out that there is no precedent for this, but there is precedent for not doing this. You proceeded to challenge his challenge while adding two extra conditions to Delusibeta's out of nowhere. And they're both silly: the first conflates the Catalonia issue with the currency issue, while the third assumes that Scotland's unwillingness to pre-define its future plans and backup plans during the electoral posturing will extend to EU negotiations.

To respond substantively: I suspect return0 is referring to Montenegro, but can't be sure, which is why I deleted the reference. That obviously wouldn't be an identical situation even if we hew strictly to Delusibeta's original condition since they're in a unilateral union with the Euro itself rather than the Serbian dinar, and not in the EU yet (although both parties have already stated it makes no sense for them to change to a transitional currency just to step back to the euro, so an ultimatum as described above makes no sense.) But it's a similar situation with Montenegro not having a truly independent central bank, and more to the point, there isn't one more similar in which the EU hasn't permitted the country to join. So the gotcha of "where's the precedent" isn't really a gotcha. Your precedent will only get so on-point with ~30 applications in history.

Elotana fucked around with this message at 02:10 on May 18, 2014

# ¿ May 18, 2014 01:52

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

LemonDrizzle posted:

OK, you still seem to be overlooking an important point: Montenegro is not an EU country and will not become one any time soon, in part because of its messy currency situation.

http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/key_documents/2013/package/mn_rapport_2013.pdf

I see a grand total of two sentences in this report on their currency situation, and neither of them seem particularly damning.

# ¿ May 18, 2014 07:23

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 22:53

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Pissflaps posted:

It really does seem the EU is prepared to stall entry based on currency, though I'm concerned that this may be too specific/not specific enough.

Your article is speculation from 2009. In the 5 years since we have not seen Montenegro's process significantly postponed; it was granted candidate status and began accession negotiations on an unremarkable timetable and there has been no apparent acrimony on the currency issue.

Elotana fucked around with this message at 08:18 on May 18, 2014

# ¿ May 18, 2014 08:15

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Scots Wha Hae - Scotland's Independence Referendum