Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady
It's news to me that any chapter bothers to mindwipe them :shrug:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

Arquinsiel posted:

It's news to me that any chapter bothers to mindwipe them :shrug:
I may be misremembering or misinterpreting what mentions are made about the whole hypno indoctrination process.

Either way I think it's interesting that those very human elements stick around.

D-Pad
Jun 28, 2006

Arquinsiel posted:

That's... not entirely accurate. The events of the story are entirely driven by the biggest goings on in the 40k universe, it's just that as far as the characters are concerned "something weird is happening off planet and it's janking up trade".

Kind of. The trade in question was going on long before the incident in question, the past history of it in the city and imperium is even mentioned more than once, but yes that specific incident of it is driven by the effects of the thing going on. All of the crime stuff so far has little mentions here and there of something going on off planet that is having an effect on trade, but even the highest echelons we see in the book have very little idea what is actually going on, which is actually surprising given how much that is effecting the Imperium as a whole. Alecto must be pretty far from the rift.


Telsa Cola posted:

I may be misremembering or misinterpreting what mentions are made about the whole hypno indoctrination process.

Either way I think it's interesting that those very human elements stick around.

As far as I know none of the chapters mindwipe previous memories on purpose, although I seem to remember that was in some of the older lore. The process of becoming a space marine is just so drastic that most marines have very little, if any, memories from before. A side effect instead of a deliberate action.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




Telsa Cola posted:

I may be misremembering or misinterpreting what mentions are made about the whole hypno indoctrination process.

Either way I think it's interesting that those very human elements stick around.

One of the many things I liked about Avenging Son was an offhand reference by the Inquisitor that they used to mindwipe space marines who encountered chaos. That ties in to a reference in the 1e rulebook that has been otherwise completely ignored ever since it was first published.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Used to mind wipe them. By late M41 it seems to have fallen out of practice (probably thanks to Grimnar's rather poor reaction to the end of the 1st Armageddon War) and by M42 its kind if a moot point given the Cicatrix Maledictum is visible pretty much everywhere.

Nuclear War
Nov 7, 2012

You're a pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty girl

Arquinsiel posted:

That's... not entirely accurate. The events of the story are entirely driven by the biggest goings on in the 40k universe, it's just that as far as the characters are concerned "something weird is happening off planet and it's janking up trade".

The cult the detective was in was definitely a genestealer cult right? It reminded med of the one in the recent necron book, snakes and all

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Nuclear War posted:

The cult the detective was in was definitely a genestealer cult right? It reminded med of the one in the recent necron book, snakes and all
Goon consensus is "yes" but it could be a red herring.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine

Arquinsiel posted:

That's... not entirely accurate. The events of the story are entirely driven by the biggest goings on in the 40k universe, it's just that as far as the characters are concerned "something weird is happening off planet and it's janking up trade".

Yeah, it's 40k but with the, I dunno, microscope focus turned to x20 rather than x5?

I remain resolute in my HYPENESS FOR CRIME.

:colbert:

E: It's like the Dark Heresy campaign you always wanted to run but your friends were too busy memeing "The Codex Astares Does Not Support This Action" at each other.

Immanentized
Mar 17, 2009

Telsa Cola posted:

I may be misremembering or misinterpreting what mentions are made about the whole hypno indoctrination process.


The hypno-indoctrination process kind of sands the edges of the humanity of an initiate and- depending on the writer- leverages cultural identities to instill a fanatic devotion to the imperial identity and chapter cult. It works really well for chapters recruiting directly from their homeworlds as it creates cohesion among all members. As the initiates mature and rack up more time as Astartes the immediate memories of their pre-chapter lives kinda blur out into this generic experience and are replaced with more vivid memories of what it was like to be a member of X tribe or Y culture. It's kind of cool because it's an in-universe extension of what indoctrination processes in real life are like. Using similar experiences to build a core experience and selectively reinforcing them to build a new identity and loyalty. The downside is that when this breaks, it breaks HARD, which is why entire chapters usually go rogue at once, or why chapters with multiple recruiting worlds (Blood Ravens, Templars) usually have some issue with force cohesion and a lot of friction in senior leadership. You also see this in the Heresy series, though, the indoctrination wasn't as hard core then.

Of course, the Salamanders, Wolves, and Ultras have the weird "close to home culture" thing where they run a good chance of meeting their extended family groups on a fairly regular basis.

As always, the caveat here is that this is all hugely dependent on the author. I think Abnett, ABD, and Chris Wraight have done a really good job of illustrating these points.

Pyrolocutus
Feb 5, 2005
Shape of Flame



Nuclear War posted:

The cult the detective was in was definitely a genestealer cult right? It reminded med of the one in the recent necron book, snakes and all

I can see the argument for Genestealer cult, but I think Tzeentch is also a strong bet unless it's a red herring as stated previously.

It kinda depends on whether he got infected before their daughter came along I think. If beforehand then it's probably not since the first offspring of a newly infected couple look pretty monstrous per the Genestealer lore, progressing to more human-looking with successive generations. Unless he got 1) infected after or 2) is one of the (very rare) non-infected human pawns.

Z the IVth
Jan 28, 2009

The trouble with your "expendable machines"
Fun Shoe

Pyrolocutus posted:

I can see the argument for Genestealer cult, but I think Tzeentch is also a strong bet unless it's a red herring as stated previously.

It kinda depends on whether he got infected before their daughter came along I think. If beforehand then it's probably not since the first offspring of a newly infected couple look pretty monstrous per the Genestealer lore, progressing to more human-looking with successive generations. Unless he got 1) infected after or 2) is one of the (very rare) non-infected human pawns.

There's mention throughout the series about snake emblems as the planetary insignia so being an old Chaos snake cult (a la Molech) would be quite reasonable. It doesn't really read as genestealers to me since they sound like a cult that recruits members rather than the weird extended families genestealer cults are.

The_Other
Dec 28, 2012

Welcome Back, Galaxy Geek.
Just an FYI: HUMBLE AUDIOBOOK BUNDLE: VOICES OF WARHAMMER 2020 BY BLACK LIBRARY is up.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

D-Pad posted:

Kind of. The trade in question was going on long before the incident in question, the past history of it in the city and imperium is even mentioned more than once, but yes that specific incident of it is driven by the effects of the thing going on. All of the crime stuff so far has little mentions here and there of something going on off planet that is having an effect on trade, but even the highest echelons we see in the book have very little idea what is actually going on, which is actually surprising given how much that is effecting the Imperium as a whole. Alecto must be pretty far from the rift.


As far as I know none of the chapters mindwipe previous memories on purpose, although I seem to remember that was in some of the older lore. The process of becoming a space marine is just so drastic that most marines have very little, if any, memories from before. A side effect instead of a deliberate action.

Maybe a bit of outdated lore but the Grey Knights undergo the 666 trials of chaos and if they endure are mind-wiped after because what they experience was so horrific and traumatizing but their character was tested and proven.

But this is from the 80s where there was still lore about the Inqusition mindwiping Space Marines if they learned about chaos.

Immanentized
Mar 17, 2009

pentyne posted:

Maybe a bit of outdated lore but the Grey Knights undergo the 666 trials of chaos and if they endure are mind-wiped after because what they experience was so horrific and traumatizing but their character was tested and proven.

Emperor's Gift had wipes as standard for all Knights, not only to forget the trials but to reduce their chances at corruptibility by not having any memory of a time without their brotherhood around them.

Deptfordx
Dec 23, 2013


Oh thanks for that. I was kinda interested in a nostalgia visit to Drachenfels, but wasn't sure it was worth using an Audible credit on.

Galvanik
Feb 28, 2013

The Red Hunters chapter also regularly mind wipes it's marines throughout their lives to keep them from being corrupted by chaos.

MrNemo
Aug 26, 2010

"I just love beeting off"

I kind of had the impression that the indoctrination/mindwiping thing was a 'cool dystopian' way of dehumanising Space Marines i.e. they are biologically and mentally diverged from humanity, weapons rather than people. Which is a much cooler concept when you aren't trying to flesh out special characters or having Space Marines as protagonists in fiction so I think it got pragmatically abandoned pretty quick in the name of story telling.

aphid_licker
Jan 7, 2009


And I mean it's unnecessary, they have barely any of the hopes and dreams that humans have, don't have a human life cycle, no kids, no contact to civilians, their ambitions are really narrow, they spend hundreds of years in combat or training for it, they're basically terminators already.

e: it's more necessary if they have a normal lifespan and more normal physique and are therefore in danger of running off after their high school sweetheart or something

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine
I think space marines aren't supposed to be subjects, they're objects to show how bleak the setting is. It's just that, because they're also a metaphor for male adolescence, they've also attained a popularity (given that most of us started this lovely hobby around that time) that makes it necessary for them to be subjects (which of course, undercuts their usefulness).

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011

Space Marines as super autistic warfare nerds is a pretty good one imo, Emperor's Gift does this really well and shows a disparity with modern marines and the first ones.

Abnett's way of showing them in the Gaunt's Ghosts series is really good too. In Necropolis and later books they are only shown distantly as forces of nature and it's only in Salvations Reach that we get to see them up close from the Guardsmen perspective. It kinda falls off in Anarch as we get a closer look at Holofurnace and he's remarkably human, but it works in the series as a whole.

Pyrolocutus
Feb 5, 2005
Shape of Flame



I think that if they're aware of what they lost, even if it's in a hazy way, it kind of makes their current state more poignant and also makes falling to chaos/going renegade a bit more plausible in-universe.

Duzzy Funlop
Jan 13, 2010

Hi there, would you like to try some spicy products?
I'm almost through with Saturnine, and I'm not sure I can deal with the wait for the next book already.

Of all the actual plot-driving moments, I've got to be honest that my favorite thing in the whole book is Camba Diaz' last stand

Holy christ, that may have been the most emotionally-invested I've ever been in any Passage of the entire horus heresy.

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:
wow, was not expecting Avenging Son to be this good. The depiction of that doomed evacuation and the alien on the last dropship out of town was harrowing.

D-Pad
Jun 28, 2006

Duzzy Funlop posted:

Of all the actual plot-driving moments, I've got to be honest that my favorite thing in the whole book is Camba Diaz' last stand

Holy christ, that may have been the most emotionally-invested I've ever been in any Passage of the entire horus heresy.

I've said this a few times in the thread. That passage is one of the all time best. The way Abnett shortens the sentences as the fighting gets more desperate until they are just single word impressions is a genius way to portray a fight like that. Excellent.

The Iron Rose posted:

wow, was not expecting Avenging Son to be this good. The depiction of that doomed evacuation and the alien on the last dropship out of town was harrowing.

Another thing I have said. It was way better than I expected. The administratum storyline was so cool from a lore and world building perspective. Don't skip Avenging Son!

Miguel Prado
Nov 5, 2008

Don't worry, like they say " It's all good! "

I need a new black legion novel, spears something, just something new by ADB. Chris Wraight dropped like 3 novels this last year right?

D-Pad
Jun 28, 2006

Miguel Prado posted:

I need a new black legion novel, spears something, just something new by ADB. Chris Wraight dropped like 3 novels this last year right?

Both black legion 3 and spears 2 should be out in the next 6-12 months. Black Legion is in progress and Spears is finished.

Yes Wraight has dropped 3 books, all some of the best BL books out. The Hollow Mountain, Regent's Shadow, and Bloodlines. Don't skip any of them. In addition, Avenging Son is very very good as is The Great Work. Don't skip any of them. Oh and Brutal Kunnin' if you like Orks.

Hunterhr
Jan 4, 2007

And The Beast, Satan said unto the LORD, "You Fucking Suck" and juked him out of his goddamn shoes
I've been getting caught up with Carrion Throne, Hollow Mountain, Lords of Silence and some other books recently.

Why is "Angels of Death" now a thing? I'm just barely coming to grips with Astra Milatarum.

Ardent Communist
Oct 17, 2010

ALLAH! MU'AMMAR! LIBYA WA BAS!
I thought I hated the whole Astra Militarum thing, but authors seem to treat it as the high gothic way to say it, and imperial guard is still the low gothic name and still used pretty widely, which is good, cause it's got tons of badass with it. Cadia broke before the guard did!

Arbite
Nov 4, 2009





Hunterhr posted:

I've been getting caught up with Carrion Throne, Hollow Mountain, Lords of Silence and some other books recently.

Why is "Angels of Death" now a thing? I'm just barely coming to grips with Astra Milatarum.

It kind of isn't, but yeah.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





The phrase goes way back, and has also been used a lot as a generic term for the Astartes.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?

Ardent Communist posted:

I thought I hated the whole Astra Militarum thing, but authors seem to treat it as the high gothic way to say it, and imperial guard is still the low gothic name and still used pretty widely, which is good, cause it's got tons of badass with it. Cadia broke before the guard did!

"Astra Militarum? Are you fresh out of the Schola? You're in the Guard now, son."

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

mllaneza posted:

The phrase goes way back, and has also been used a lot as a generic term for the Astartes.
I kind of like it. It implies that the Emperor has lots of different types of angel, but the ones you are likely to see, citizen, wear Ceramite and carry a Boltgun.

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:

D-Pad posted:

I've said this a few times in the thread. That passage is one of the all time best. The way Abnett shortens the sentences as the fighting gets more desperate until they are just single word impressions is a genius way to portray a fight like that. Excellent.


Another thing I have said. It was way better than I expected. The administratum storyline was so cool from a lore and world building perspective. Don't skip Avenging Son!

I will say the bolter porn was terrible but that’s because bolter porn is usually terrible. It’s fine in books that are all about guns and explosions like, idk, Storm of Iron. But when the strength is in the character work you just want more of that.


Also more scribe errant adventures!

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Any books about space marines on feudal worlds that aren't lovely Dark Angels novels? I'd love to read a story abiut a giant knight who falls from the sky and sets to claiming a world for the Emprah

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


Ardent Communist posted:

I thought I hated the whole Astra Militarum thing, but authors seem to treat it as the high gothic way to say it, and imperial guard is still the low gothic name and still used pretty widely, which is good, cause it's got tons of badass with it. Cadia broke before the guard did!

Pretty much. I like each branch having the “official” name, but still using the old names for common use.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

Arcsquad12 posted:

Any books about space marines on feudal worlds that aren't lovely Dark Angels novels? I'd love to read a story abiut a giant knight who falls from the sky and sets to claiming a world for the Emprah

First Iron Snakes part and one of the others is on a feudal world but not really what you are looking for, I think one of the grey knight books is also partially set on one.

McCoy Pauley
Mar 2, 2006
Gonna eat so many goddamn crumpets.

Pyrolocutus posted:

I can see the argument for Genestealer cult, but I think Tzeentch is also a strong bet unless it's a red herring as stated previously.

It kinda depends on whether he got infected before their daughter came along I think. If beforehand then it's probably not since the first offspring of a newly infected couple look pretty monstrous per the Genestealer lore, progressing to more human-looking with successive generations. Unless he got 1) infected after or 2) is one of the (very rare) non-infected human pawns.

I just finished Bloodlines this morning, and really enjoyed it -- particularly for how it was focused on something so different from what I've previously read about in 40K books -- but I must have totally missed what's being discussed here. What was going on in the book about a cult and an infection?

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

McCoy Pauley posted:

I just finished Bloodlines this morning, and really enjoyed it -- particularly for how it was focused on something so different from what I've previously read about in 40K books -- but I must have totally missed what's being discussed here. What was going on in the book about a cult and an infection?
People think the cult logo is some version of this and there's a line about h im not remembering how he got the scar on his chest, which is where genestealers implant babby.

Miguel Prado
Nov 5, 2008

Don't worry, like they say " It's all good! "

Bloodlines is so good wow, Chris Wraight just keeps knocking them out of the park

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

MariusLecter
Sep 5, 2009

NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

Arcsquad12 posted:

"Astra Militarum? Are you fresh out of the Schola? You're in the Guard now, son."



bonus

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply