Warhammer: After 18 years, finally an end

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Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Fried Chicken posted:

Perturbro had Olympia in open rebellion towards then end of the crusade and purged it, the shame of being the only primarch (at the time) to lose control of his home world is part of why he sided with Horus

Perturbro really needs some characterization and fleshing out

Aside from Angron, who couldn't even conquer his world to begin with.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2014 19:39

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 02:22

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

AttitudeAdjuster posted:

I'm pretty sure False Gods has a scene where Horus literally says 'father, why have you forsaken me?' So yeah, skip that poo poo.

That's in Horus Rising, unfortunately.

The only Graham McNeil book I've read so far is A Thousand Sons, and I really liked it. Considering this I'm surprised at the animosity towards McNeil in this thread, are the other books terrible or something?

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 22:18

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

He's normally red, but his size and appearance varies because he's more raw power than flesh and bone.

He's also occasionally called the Crimson King. Yeah, that was pretty bad.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2015 22:16

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

bango skank posted:

Didn't each individual Thousand Son also have a pet totally-not-a-demon that they used to make their magic stronger? The Rout might be a bunch of hypocrites but Russ still Did Nothing Wrong.

Yeah, didn't they all turn on the Sons during the battle of Prospero?

# ¿ Jul 31, 2018 06:16

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

My reading order was Eisenhorn, Magos, Ravenor. Ironically, I'm less hyped for the eventual showdown now than I was before I read Ravenor.

# ¿ Jan 9, 2019 18:07

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Galvanik posted:

Bit late to comment on this, but I feel like it's worth mentioning that the Eldar managed to exist as a space faring race for millions of years without creating a galactic warp catastrophe. Humanity only took forty thousand. If somehow the chaos gods just vanished and the warp became quiet tranquil realm of souls again, I'd expect the Eldar would do better at avoiding another pangalactic warp shitstorm than humans.

You�re forgetting that they were the principle army in the war that created the original catastrophes that led to Chaos.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2019 10:36

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

I get the feeling that after Betrayer there's not much chance of a reconciliation, given the destruction of a couple of Guilliman's worlds.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2020 11:39

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

I'm always amused that a mini-empire clearly styled on classical Rome with names like Marneus and Aeonid is led by a man named Roboute Guilliman.

# ¿ May 14, 2020 20:17

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

SardonicTyrant posted:

The Sol system not being where it's supposed to be in real life has been a thing for a long time. As far as I know, the Imperium didn't move it. But Ullanor was moved because it was an Ork attack moon with its own teleportation system.

Wasn't there a theory that the system encountered in the first Horus Heresy book was the actual Sol system?

# ¿ Jun 14, 2020 18:03

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Just finished a re-read of Thousand Sons. In some ways it feels like a pitch-black comedy given how oblivious Magnus and the legion is to what they are doing. My favourite bit is when one of them is told an accurate account of the fall of the Eldar (not called that) and he's not interested because he's read plenty of other accounts with a similar story. I almost felt like screaming: "You idiots, you're repeating the exact same mistakes! Even to the point of harnessing demons!"

In conclusion, Russ did nothing wrong.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2020 07:54

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Dapper_Swindler posted:

if i remember the various lore. he basicaly plays at trying to guide humanity from behind the scenes and poo poo until the mad max times, than he says "gently caress it".

I think that's the 'official' line, though this:

Deptfordx posted:

...the whole 'Around since the Stone Age' thing is bullshit, and he's just a Dark Age of technology weapon that escaped control and made up a bogus backstory as it started it's conquests.

Is much more interesting.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2020 15:43

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

I saw a picture of an orc in a Tyranid squad holding a sign saying 'IZ A BUG'.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2021 16:20

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Brendan Rodgers posted:

The Space Wolves through their rituals, basically turn up to the timeshare presentation, get their free gift, and then leave without signing any papers.

That is such a fantastic analogy.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2021 16:55

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

I really hope someday there's a proper account of Guilliman killing Alpharius.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2021 22:13

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

I ended up reading Pariah after Magos, but I can see how confusing Pariah would be without the backstory.

Also (Pariah spoilers)I find it amazing how far off the deep end Eisenhorn has gone. He's now at the point where he can kill Astartes one-on-one and in his retinue of four one is a Traitor Marine and one is a demon. Also the demon seems to serve willingly now. What are the odds he's going to develop horns in the next book?

# ¿ Feb 22, 2021 19:10

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Brendan Rodgers posted:

Eisenhorn by the time of Pariah is imo is radical, heretical, but still serving the Emperor. Considering Abnett wrote the current interpretation of Alpha Legion, and Eisenhorn is working with them, I reckon he is now similar to Alpha Legion as an Inquisitor: extremis diabolus, irredeemable, but perhaps still loyal to the original Imperial Truth. Eisenhorn did find The Keeler Image in the short story set between The Magos and Pariah that has same title.

So exactly like Quixos, as he was ostensibly loyal to the throne as well.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2021 22:38

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Well Penitent was a wild ride. I'll be mad if it takes five years for Abnett to write the next book.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2021 23:28

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Read Magos in between Ravenor and Pariah.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2021 17:49

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

A quick change to Renner's backstory:

He sheltered a girl who developed psychic powers, who then went on to become possessed and killed hundreds. Even better if he shielded her from the Inquisition rather than the Ecclesiarchy, who in most cases become the out-and-out bad guys.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2021 18:36

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Arcsquad12 posted:

It has to be intentional. 40K has a long and proud history of planets with names based on irony or puns.

Krieg was doomed the moment they chose that name...

# ¿ Jul 20, 2021 20:57

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

its boring op

It's amazing comparing its quality with Saturnine and Warhawk.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2021 22:45

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Dog_Meat posted:

World Eaters were "the angry beserkers" with a primarch called Angry who charged blindly at anything with their swords. ADB somehow turned them from silly story to tragic pathos and made a half-lobotomised, murder-slave, rampaging, frothing madman one of the better characters in the series.

Not ADB, but I loved in Warhawk when Kharn is fighting Sigismund and he realises what the Imperium is going to be like because of the Heresy, so he decides he has to kill Sigismund to save humanity. He then fails completely.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2021 20:20

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Telsa Cola posted:

Well Angron is CLEARLY the hulk in this example but who is superman.

Sanguinius?

# ¿ Dec 19, 2021 00:35

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Relevant Tangent posted:

Also Mortarion loves his moth wings and is really clearly a happy slave. He made his choice.

I liked how in Warhawk Mortarion believes that he made a willing and planned sacrifice of his legion to Nurgle, but then he realises that literally everyone else believes that he gave up because he was weak.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2021 10:35

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Dapper_Swindler posted:

yeah to me slaneesh stuff is like "yeah we have gone way way way beyond any concept of human sexual poo poo or even beyond any kinda hosed up sex crimes poo poo and now into weird eldrich version of chasing dopamine rushes"

I think there was a great description in this thread of how hosed up the Eldar were before Slaanesh was created. Anyone have it to hand?

# ¿ Jan 7, 2022 18:55

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

D-Pad posted:

This is a very good point that hasn't been mentioned. We see several high-functioning chaos societies in the heresy books.

Legion had one, where the literal translation of �bless you� was �may the Primordial Annihilator immolate your soul�.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2022 09:07

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

wiegieman posted:

Lots of characters, even good old Rowboat, spend a lot of time convincing themselves that the Astartes were made for some kind of constructive purpose, some sort of grand design leading towards a bright future for humanity.

All of them are wrong.

It was always amusing in the Night Lords series when one of them would say something like: "We built the Imperium, so we get to destroy it." Except that everything they have direct control over (like their ships) is worn down and decrepit. They never built anything, they just destroyed everything so that others could build.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2022 15:05

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Relevant Tangent posted:

Robert Rath wrote The Infinite and the Divine which you should read immediately if you haven't.

I never liked the retcon of the Necrons... Until reading that book.

# ¿ May 27, 2022 10:19

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Ardent Communist posted:

I think John French isn't that bad, maybe i'm a poor critic but i've liked his imperial fists stories in the horus heresy.

He's far from the worst. The issue with Mortis is it's sandwiched between Saturnine and Warhawk, so the difference in quality is much more obvious.

# ¿ Jun 20, 2022 19:33

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

0konner posted:

Weirder than finding �titbit� in Dead Men Walking I also noticed what I think is the first time I�ve seen human ethnicity described in contemporary terms instead of talking about heritage of the �nordafrik enclaves� or being of �albian� descent or whatever there�s a bit where a Krieg guard says �we�re looking for a caucasian female�.

There is that bit in an ADB book with a Cadian meeting someone with black skin, who obviously comes from a jungle world.

... Yeah.

# ¿ Jul 28, 2022 06:43

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

a lovely king posted:

Yeah the Siege has been weird in that they got rid of basically every heretic Legion. Alphas ducked out, Word Bearers ducked out (except a token force), Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children quit the field, Night Lords, token force, Thousand Sons, gently caress all of them there. Seems like its basically just World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Death Guard left.

I see that it's a way of getting across that the tenacious defence plus the infighting led to the traitors running out of time and Horus doing his last ditch gambit, but in effect it makes the whole thing feel a bit anemic character wise.

I guess some of it might be paying off in the next two books, or maybe they're laying the groundwork for Scouring novels (not unlikely).

I'm okay with that, as otherwise it doesn't make much sense how three Legions could have held out against nine.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2022 18:48

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

AndyElusive posted:

Defended by the greatest living wall ever built (in a lab), defended by the greatest defenders ever built (in a lab).

I mean look at how many Spartans it took to block the pass of Thermopylae.

300, along with 6,700 hoplites from other Greek cities. They lasted three days.

Also the Palace was assaulted by the greatest siegemaster ever. With overwhelming numerical advantages.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2022 20:05

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Improbable Lobster posted:

I like the idea of The Emperor as having essentially learned the wrong lessons from history and eventually going "gently caress it, I'll just make them all listen to me" and being torn down by his own hubris. The Emperor falling into fascism and beginning the Great Crusade at all was what lead to 40k being The Worst Timelime.

Yep, as shown in The Last Church:

quote:

�Didn�t you just tell me of the bloody slaughters perpetrated by crusaders?� said Uriah. �Doesn�t that make you no better than the holy men you were telling me about?�
�The difference is I know I am right,� said the Emperor.

# ¿ Sep 1, 2022 13:38

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

I just automatically add two/three zeroes to whatever number the books mention, except Space Marines.

# ¿ Sep 2, 2022 16:27

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

MrNemo posted:

I guess it served to show the development of the IX legion from a status of cannibalistic refuse to the empitome of Vampiric beauty under their Primarch versus the War Hounds going from an effective if brutal Legion to a pack of insane killers under the development of theirs. So a way of exploring the Blood Angels history?

Pretty much. The only other Blood Angels-centric HH book I know of is Fear to Tread which is... patchy. Echoes is the first time they've explored the transition of the IX Legion in the way you described.

Regarding Amit/Kargos I think you're spot on with what ADB was trying to convey. I also think it's set up to make things more tragic when Sanguinius dies and all the Blood Angels go berserk.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2022 23:02

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Arkhan Land talking poo poo about Space Marines was hilarious. "Of course you Know No Fear, you have nothing to lose."

# ¿ Sep 10, 2022 14:29

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

DaysBefore posted:

I think the worst Perpetual in the series is the edgy dude who is strongly implied to have shot Reverend King Jr. which uh

It could have been Bobby Kennedy.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2022 17:59

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

And here was me thinking Abnett had made something at least slightly ambiguous.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2022 20:02

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Arbite posted:

Yeah, ten years later I'm feeling even confident about this.

I think the issues with the Thousand Sons were established perfectly in the McNeill book. None of them realise what they're dealing with, they're harnessing demons and making bargains with malevolent gods and they can't imagine being wrong about anything. In spite of all their knowledge and understanding they're completely blind to the possibility that they're playing with things they can't control. This is demonstrated perfectly during the Prospero battle. The first time they face serious, dangerous opposition and all of their ~~demons~~familiars turn on them and try to kill them.

They deserved to fall more than any other Legion. Vulkan calling out Magnus is just the icing on the cake.

# ¿ Sep 26, 2022 22:32

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 02:22

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

Warden posted:

Whether Magnus, in fact, did or did not do anything wrong.

Given how active ADB is/was on Reddit, I wonder if that's the reason he included Vulkan's withering putdowns to Magnus in Echoes of Eternity.

Personally I side with ADB's interpretation. Thousand Sons shows that he and his legion were consumed by the arrogance that they knew best and could do anything. Every other legion that had psykers recognised that it was dangerous and held back from fully immersing themselves in the warp. Instead Magnus encouraged his legion to harness demons and use their powers for everything. Then Magnus ruined the webway project because he had to be the one to warn the Emperor rather than trust it to others. The Emperor should have brought Magnus back with him to work on the webway, but that doesn't absolve Magnus of his mistakes.

In short, Magnus did everything wrong.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2022 09:48

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