|
magnificent7 posted:To each his own I guess. That's my biggest problem - I have great ideas, (I swear I do) and then execute them in the most fumble-thumbed ways. That's why I keep coming back. Somehow I want to learn how to take an idea and retain the good parts of it and convey them in the right way. This is long and ranty, so I posted it in this thread: Stop falling in love with your ideas. You know how when you wake up from a dream you think it's the best thing ever and you want to tell somebody about it, but after a few minutes it starts to make less sense and then you realize it is really stupid? That's how your ideas are materializing. Except instead of purging them from your mind you gather the family up to all sit through a three-hour retelling of your really boring and disjointed dream. Ideas are much less important than saying things effectively. That's part of the reason literature is "boring" to a lot of people. Even though they often have clever ideas, they're much more concerned with style and the overall narrative. Your stories read like somebody made them out of refrigerator poetry magnets: chock-full of over-descriptive words and that you're forced to say things a certain way even though they don't make sense because of your limited word choice. Your story involved rock, paper, and scissors, which every kid knows are used for making a decision when you can't agree on anything with another party. THIS should have been the basic premise of your story. How to make a decision, letting fate decide, and then the moral of that decision. There's no reason to make these characters symbolize other things. That is just convoluted and you're going to lose the reader. If you wanted to tell the story about technology, art, and pragmatism you should have picked three unknown characters (the prompt begged you to do this anyway). Having them go somewhere because "everybody loves to go to a fair!" is a really dumb reason for a story. It's not even an "idea," it's a scramble for an excuse. Same with putting a river/bridge in their way just because they needed something to set up the fight. These arbitrary things are the reasons your stories are boring. There's no REASON for them to exist. In stories where a bridge is relevant there has to be a reason to get to the other side. Maybe they all want to gently caress the same girl and the first one over the bridge gets her? That's a lovely "idea" but it's already better than your idea, because in your story they just wanted to get over the bridge so they could all attend a fair, because in your opinion that's a "fun thing to do." But nobody would DIE to go to a fair (which is what happened in your story). You keep getting a huge loving boner for your great "ideas" and then sticking with them when you should have given them up. Once you found yourself giving different meanings to stock characters, you should have been like "wait, is this such a good idea?" Stop being convinced that your idea is too good to give up. If you don't, you'll always be like one of those directors who has a film that's too long filled with a bunch of horrible scenes that drag on forever. You ever watch a DVD and see a deleted scene that you really liked and thought should have stayed in the film? The reason they're out is because even though they were a good idea, they didn't work with the overall film/episode. Learn to murder your babies; each one is not a precious jewel, some of them grow up to be assholes. And until you actually start getting good feedback, assume that all of your ideas are horrible poo poo. Don't brag about them BEFORE you even release them for a crit. You seriously keep talking yourself up as having the greatest ideas and that we are all going to be so honored to read them. Then we tell you they're bad and you're confused. My girlfriend read your story and told me that you are pranking us and nobody would submit that story seriously. I've definitely thought this myself a few times reading your stories. Your lack of knowing what the hell to do + the insufferable arrogance made me think you were 15. You say you're actually older and have achieved great success in your other career, which is sad in my opinion. If this is how you achieved success in your other career, then other people probably hate you. If you can't learn humility, then fake it. Don't post anything in the thunderdome thread but your story and a "thankyou" if somebody gives you good advice. Don't give excuses as a reenactment of the Tommy Boy scene "OH MY GOD I MURDERED MY FRIEND." Just realize that you suck, your ideas suck, your prose sucks, everything about your writing sucks. The only way to get better is to read more and write more, not to make more excuses. Stop making excuses, just STOP MAKING EXCUSES for why you suck. There's not "one thing" holding you back from great stories, it's EVERYTHING holding you back. That's not to say that you should quit or give up. Keep at it by all means. I hope you get really good because you might actually have some good ideas, and I'd love to hear them. But until you can share your ideas with us in a way that doesn't want to make us stop reading three lines in, do more listening and thinking and less talking and bragging.
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 04:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 18:33 |
|
|
A good harsh flensing. FWIW when I'm trying to get a story out of an idea, I always start with the most obvious response. It's always poo poo. Then I change it, a bit at a time, until it's not. Then I write the story. Variations on a theme is 90% of creativity, when you get down to it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 05:15
|
|
|
I think getting a story out of an idea is putting the cart before the horse, but what would I know? I can say that every time I think to myself "Wouldn't be cool if there were a story about..." it ends up as garbage no matter what I do. The best stories I write start with a thread of story-telling: an image, a sound, a kinetic impression. Then I pull out the thread until I've unraveled the sweater, so to speak. I find that within a story written in this way there is a depth that I could not have put in if I were not relying on my intuitive self. I would concede to anyone that this may be largely a individualistic thing. However, the notion that you somehow turn an idea into another idea (because that's kind of what a story is) is largely foreign to me. The story is the idea. Write it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 05:26
|
|
|
Stories seem to work best when allowed to grow naturally in some manner. Mag7, from what you were saying in the 'dome it seems like you're a little hung up on planning and "how it should be". The bridge must be there for the conflict, these things have to represent this, and that sort of thing. Just get some corn, load it into the microwave and let it pop. Don't put hand popped (like, you've split it open and tried to force it out yourself) corn into the microwave, because that just makes no sense and doesn't taste good.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 13:26
|
|
|
I'm sorry about that over-confident egotistical crap. It's a horrible habit of mine. When the crits come in and I don't understand them, I try not to make excuses, but to ask questions to find out how I hosed up so horribly. Like, does the bridge have to be something more than a bridge? Does every short story have to be about human nature? Can't it be a shallow mindless tale? Like an Aesop's Fable? Why did the three pigs insist on making three different kinds of houses? Didn't they all think the one made from sticks was a stupid idea? edit: sorry one last question; do you guys tend to consider the 'dome as having a Real Literature angle? So then the lovely fiction, zombies, serial killers, hard loving, crap like that it instantly disregarded by most folks on there? And this - crabrock posted:Ideas are much less important than saying things effectively. magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 17:30 on May 28, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 17:16
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:Can't it be a shallow mindless tale? Like an Aesop's Fable? Why did the three pigs insist on making three different kinds of houses? Didn't they all think the one made from sticks was a stupid idea? The three little pigs is a fable about wisdom. Two of the pigs don't bother thinking ahead and end up getting eaten by a wolf. It's elementary but it's not mindless.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 17:33
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:
Important doesn't equal "better", however I think what Crabrock is saying has a lot of merit. You can have the most interesting, exciting, wonderful things happening in your story, but if its written in a clunky, grammatically horrible manner then readers will put the book down and move on. Conversely, well-written prose moves a story along and gives the illusion of important things happening even if they're not (granted, if its not important, it probably doesn't need to be in your story, but that's a whole different discussion). Take a movie, for example; it doesn't matter how amazing the story is if the acting, cinematography, editing and whatever else is utter garbage. You'll either turn that movie off after 5 minutes or watch it without taking it seriously. Great prose can usually save a mediocre story, but a great story cannot always be saved by mediocre prose. Also, magnificent7 posted:Can't it be a shallow mindless tale? Like an Aesop's Fable? Why did the three pigs insist on making three different kinds of houses? Didn't they all think the one made from sticks was a stupid idea? I'm really not trying to be a jerk but insinuating Aesop's Fables were "shallow mindless tales" is mind-numbingly stupid. Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi fucked around with this message at 18:06 on May 28, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 17:51
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:edit: sorry one last question; do you guys tend to consider the 'dome as having a Real Literature angle? So then the lovely fiction, zombies, serial killers, hard loving, crap like that it instantly disregarded by most folks on there? Absolutely not. Real Literature is kind of a bullshit concept anyway, though if people want to write about mundane things and make it "literary" they're more than welcome to. Some prompts have even required or at least encouraged that. But Thunderdome was founded on the still-best prompt ever: man agonizes over potatoes. quote:Am I reading that right? Perfect prose is better than something interesting happening? No. You want both, but you need competent prose to get the interesting thing across to the reader. So you can have decent prose and a fantastic plot and characters and still succeed. But if your prose is terrible, even the coolest characters and most engaging plot will fall flat.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 17:59
|
|
|
Mag7, you should enter this weeks thunderdome, send me your story by Friday evening, and I'll give you a preliminary crit with what is working and what is not, privately. Then when you submit Sunday I'll have another judge take a look at it. one negative thing about the dome is it doesn't really encourage revisions. this will give you the chance to do that.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 18:14
|
|
|
Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:Important doesn't equal "better", however I think what Crabrock is saying has a lot of merit. You can have the most interesting, exciting, wonderful things happening in your story, but if its written in a clunky, grammatically horrible manner then readers will put the book down and move on. Well, that's not...exactly true. Many well-known authors write clunky, grammatically horrible stuff that sells like hotcakes. Story is what matters. The only thing that matters, ultimately. But an 'idea' for a great story is not, by itself, a great story. That, to me, is the real issue here. Great ideas are a dime a fuckin' dozen. Worthless. Everyone has them, and most aren't really all that great. Following through on the ideas that are actually good is the hard part. quote:Take a movie, for example; it doesn't matter how amazing the story is if the acting, cinematography, editing and whatever else is utter garbage. You'll either turn that movie off after 5 minutes or watch it without taking it seriously. I don't think I've ever heard someone say a movie has an amazing story yet also had bad acting, cinematography, editing and etc. There are no actors, cameramen, gaffers, riggers, etc. available to the writer. It's all you. And your only job is to get out of the way enough to let the story come through. In general, the more 'aware' of the writing your reader becomes, the worse off you'll be in holding their attention. (There are exceptions to this, of course.) I think this particular issue comes up a lot because lovely writers usually tell lovely stories. But if you can Dan-Brown your way into someone's awareness, you can succeed as a writer, no matter how much you make other writers cringe. Far too often I see writers critiquing stylistic tics like vernacular, metaphors, dialect, etc. when the focus should probably be on "This is a crappy story. I was bored the whole time." I've noticed that when I'm entertained by a great story, it's actually really hard for me to even see problems with the writing because I'm immersed/engaged! It's important to remember that--if you want to sell fiction--you should write to impress readers; not other writers. Of course I agree that prose should be clean and efficient, and free of all technical faults, but those are fairly easy goals to achieve with just a bit of effort; in other words, anyone can become a good writer of words. Becoming a great storyteller, however, is much more difficult to do. And I'm not 100% sure that skill can be taught.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 18:16
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:Am I reading that right? Perfect prose is better than something interesting happening? Completely wrong. What he's saying is that a great idea is nothing if it cannot be communicated effectively. Good prose is just one part of communicating your great ideas effectively. The other parts are characterization, pacing and framing (setting/theme). The key point is that you cannot fall in love with a beautiful idea in your head, because chances are there's some flaws that you're not going to see. Everyone has beer goggles for their own ideas. Have the discipline to sober up a bit from your narcissistic love-drunk and carefully examine the idea's warts, scars and deformities before you decide to jump in bed with it. Either that, or get really good at literary plastic surgery. There are plenty of Dome pieces, and plenty of stories elsewhere, that get high marks but are by no means Serious Literature. They're fun ideas, well-expressed. What you're being told is (a) stop tootling your own horn about your ideas, you arrogant rear end, and (b) work on communicating your ideas effectively using all the tools mentioned above.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 18:20
|
|
|
crabrock posted:Mag7, you should enter this weeks thunderdome, send me your story by Friday evening, and I'll give you a preliminary crit with what is working and what is not, privately. Then when you submit Sunday I'll have another judge take a look at it. one negative thing about the dome is it doesn't really encourage revisions. this will give you the chance to do that.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 18:46
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:Thanks but no. I think maybe I should have waited before jumping into the Thunderdome. I'm not there yet. Crabrock, whose first entry was a pedophile story that made almost no sense and who now, two months or so later, just won the $50 prize and is getting published. You can probably learn something from him and he's willing to help you.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 19:43
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:When the crits come in and I don't understand them, I try not to make excuses, Excuses are all I've seen from you so you're failing at that rather horribly. quote:Like, does the bridge have to be something more than a bridge? Does every short story have to be about human nature? Can't it be a shallow mindless tale? Like an Aesop's Fable? Have you ever read an Aesop's Fable? They are all about human nature, they just happen to use animals to display those traits. If you want to write, then read books and pay attention to what you're reading - and I don't mean how-to books. Actual fiction books. If you're expecting to find 5 Secrets To Becoming An Amazing Writer, they don't exist. Read a story. Make notes of things you like, work out why you think something works, and figure out how to apply it to your own writing. If you don't like something, same thing. Think about what the story said, what the author was trying to get across, whether they got it across, whether it could have been done better. You can read about stories needing a beginning, middle and end all day but it won't matter if you don't actually read a story with a beginning, middle and end - just as you can stare at tablature all day, but your fingers won't magically find the strings as soon as you pick up the guitar for the first time in your life. You'll slowly pick them out and stumble and soon your fingers are all callused and you want to throw the drat thing out the window but, hey, you can pick out a blues run now at better than 5 notes per hour and shift between C and G chords without looking. Try critiquing some stories in the Fiction Farm, or at least reading stories and crits. quote:edit: sorry one last question; do you guys tend to consider the 'dome as having a Real Literature angle? So then the lovely fiction, zombies, serial killers, hard loving, crap like that it instantly disregarded by most folks on there? You got that part right at least. Unfortunately what you followed it with is only "lovely" if it's written badly. There's been plenty of pulp, cyberpunk, sci-fi and fantasy, and it's all judged on its own merits, not discarded for not being literary enough (unless that's the prompt, of course). I take it you haven't read much of the thread, if you've looked at any other entries at all. Read other entries and crits, and not just the winners. quote:Am I reading that right? Perfect prose is better than something interesting happening? Not even remotely. Beef covered this. Listen to him. No one's going to care about perfect prose if nothing interesting is happening, but likewise no one is going to care about what's happening if you can't write well enough - and I don't mean spelling and grammar. Compelling characters, believable conflict, a clear plot, an interesting setting if you're doing genre work. All that comes back to my earlier point of paying attention to what you read. If you want help, there's nothing we can do until you get your head out of your rear end, stop making so many excuses, and accept that if you want to become a writer you're going to have to put some effort into it. Regarding your fable: As has been mentioned before, it could have been going somewhere, speaking on the consequences of the characters acting according to their nature. However, by the ending you realized you didn't know where you were going with it after changing it several times during writing (as ideas are wont to do), threw up your hands and ended with "women are bitches, amirite?" For a fable, there was no moral. It could have gone somewhere and you threw it away for a pointlessly misogynistic gag. Don't play up the BEST IDEA EVER, splat down this piece of nonsensical garbage and then pointedly ignore all those things when it goes over like a brick to point at B-B-BUT YOUR IDEA. If you plain didn't think of any of that before you posted, then take the above advice and start thinking before you ever try writing again. Echo Cian fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 28, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 20:33
|
|
|
systran posted:Crabrock, whose first entry was a pedophile story that made almost no sense and who now, two months or so later, just won the $50 prize and is getting published. You can probably learn something from him and he's willing to help you.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2013 20:49
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:Thanks but no. Stop posting and go write more. It's what I've done. Jesus.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 00:31
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:Thanks but no. I think maybe I should have waited before jumping into the Thunderdome. I'm not there yet. It might not look like it, but we're gunning for you to get better. And this is a great opportunity. Take Crabrock's offer. Hell, I'll do you a pre-crit too if you like.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 02:10
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:Thanks but no. I think maybe I should have waited before jumping into the Thunderdome. I'm not there yet. No, I think you've come to the perfect place to get better. Other writing threads will sugarcoat things and keep you chasing your tail. Here people are giving you real advice for how to get better. I've learned a lot in just the past few weeks from reading the crits I get, reading other people's stories and those crits, and trying new things. I've also gotten worse because I'm reading Infinite Jest and it's hard not to emulate his style by saying "gently caress everything."
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 03:25
|
|
|
crabrock posted:No, I think you've come to the perfect place to get better. Other writing threads will sugarcoat things and keep you chasing your tail. Here people are giving you real advice for how to get better. I'm going to echo this because it's one of the better places to improve your writing. TD is meant to be strictly about not providing a "hugbox" effect you see in a lot of other online writing groups (nanowrimo forums are a great example), so the (potentially unfortunate) truth is that you won't be cuddled for producing rubbish and people will not stop to consider whether their criticism makes you sad. There's also, generally, an attempt by inthread goons to give good crits, so even amidst the kayfabe and "lol it's rubbish" posts there'd be someone to make a serious evaluation of your work. You can even request for one if you're truly unsatisfied, and people will usually be willing to help as long as you express a wish to learn from the process. If you are currently feeling burnt out by writing and getting crit, I'm going to reiterate Noah's proposal that, regardless if you are acting as judge this week, to try to read some submissions and crit them. I've mentioned it in one of my judging weeks before, but doing this will help you think more about the writing process - what sort of things work/don't work, and why they work/don't.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 04:16
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:Variations on a theme is 90% of creativity, when you get down to it. Is theme something you have established in the early phases of writing the story? Like, does it completely change how you tell the story? crabrock posted:I've also gotten worse because I'm reading Infinite Jest and it's hard not to emulate his style by saying "gently caress everything." I totally understand this sentiment, and allow me to use it to segue into my greater plea for help. Before I go further though, I just want to say that reading critiques in the Thunderdome has been very helpful and I've read some amazing stories, but I need something more personal. Anyways, I read IJ very early in my writing phase and it skewed my perception of the craft a bit. During that phase, I was directly inspired by DFW and I wrote a story with a lot of big words. It was well received at my community college, so I must have done something right, but I feel like I had little control over what I was actually writing. I recognized this problem as soon as I tried to write in a different style. Now, in an effort to combat this problem, I end up writing things sort of like minimalism and the result are these real boring pieces of fiction like the one I came up with for my Thunderdome entry. I guess my problem is an overall lack of control with words, but self-diagnosis can only take one so far. Can anyone help me out on this? I'm not sure which things I'm doing right/wrong anymore. fart particle fucked around with this message at 07:10 on May 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 07:02
|
|
|
fart particle posted:Is theme something you have established in the early phases of writing the story? Like, does it completely change how you tell the story? When I say theme I guess I'm speaking more broadly. Essentially I start with an obvious cliche and start twiddling the knobs until its not obvious anymore. Then I work through the idea in my head until I can see an interesting progression, beginning middle end. Then I write it (not lately though, man gently caress writers block). I do sort of pick a style; hard boiled, minimalist, elaborate, or whatever and that makes a big difference to how I tell the story. quote:I end up writing things sort of like minimalism and the result are these real boring pieces of fiction like the one I came up with for my Thunderdome entry. I guess my problem is an overall lack of control with words, but self-diagnosis can only take one so far. Can anyone help me out on this? I'm not sure which things I'm doing right/wrong anymore. I just read your 'dome story and I think it's decent, and 75% of the way to good. You've got a nice clean style going on there. But I agree there's something missing. It's like the story truck drove up to the lot and dumped a bunch of bricks and 2x4 and you took a photo of it and called it a day. First thing: why should I care abut these characters? Have another useful rule of thumb: what does the character want, why can't they have it, why should we give a poo poo? Conflict building character is cliche because it's true. I also think you missed a trick by describing the most boring parts of your story; why not have them doing crimes on a building site when they get nabbed by the cops? Why not have the fight with the girlfriend? Always have the reader asking questions and don't be afraid to answer them. Then have the answers raise more questions. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 08:37 on May 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 08:02
|
|
|
Yeah, I definitely see what you mean. I didn't have any of those things in mind while writing the story, and they also sound like great questions to ask while reading other stories. I can already see how Noah's story answers all of your First Thing questions just in the first few sentences. Thanks seb, this will help me a ton!
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 08:24
|
|
|
fart particle posted:Yeah, I definitely see what you mean. I didn't have any of those things in mind while writing the story, and they also sound like great questions to ask while reading other stories. I can already see how Noah's story answers all of your First Thing questions just in the first few sentences. Thanks seb, this will help me a ton! Can I suggest you give the Spring Break 'Dome story a rewrite and post it? I'd like to see you have another run at it. Maybe pick a genre and recast it in that? Genres can be super helpful by giving you a ready made toolkit of images and rhythms.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 09:14
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:Can I suggest you give the Spring Break 'Dome story a rewrite and post it? I'd like to see you have another run at it. Maybe pick a genre and recast it in that? Genres can be super helpful by giving you a ready made toolkit of images and rhythms. Sure, I'll give it a shot. Finals are closing in though, so don't expect anything too soon... Sounds like an interesting challenge though--I've never rewrote a story in this way (I usually just scrap it and move on).
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 09:49
|
|
|
To add to the "Join the dome, get better" brigade, I did my first dome a few weeks ago and my story got rightfully ripped to shreds. The biggest piece of criticism I received from the three judges was that I spent way too much time describing mundane poo poo and not enough time making sure interesting poo poo happened. So I took a week off, thought about what the judges said, then entered again and concentrated on pulling back on the mundane and keeping the narrative moving forward. I ended up being a runner-up that week, and I credit every scrap of that accomplishment to the criticisms leveled at me from my previous story. Yeah, sometimes people can be harsh, but a harsh critique is honestly the best kind you can get because it means they want to help you get better. So unless someone literally says, "Stop it dude, find a different hobby and never write again," you should take the criticism as a measure of how you can improve rather than as, "People hate me, I suck, I'm quitting," or, the even worse, "gently caress those guys, they don't know what they're talking about."
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2013 15:02
|
|
|
God help me, I'm thinking of entering a Thunderdome story thanks to all this advice. Knowing me, though, I'll probably get one of those avatars of shame, even with such a good prompt. I do really need practice outside of my pet project, though, so I suppose this will help for whatever else I plan to do with it (even though I know the advice will probably end up being "Read more scrub" or "kill yourself you are terrible").
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 04:05
|
|
|
Manoueverable posted:God help me, I'm thinking of entering a Thunderdome story thanks to all this advice. Knowing me, though, I'll probably get one of those avatars of shame, even with such a good prompt. I do really need practice outside of my pet project, though, so I suppose this will help for whatever else I plan to do with it (even though I know the advice will probably end up being "Read more scrub" or "kill yourself you are terrible"). Think of it this way, the ONLY result is you getting better. There is no way to get WORSE by writing.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 04:09
|
|
|
Hey guys, just so you know, Thunderdome isn't really a thing you need to be "good enough" for. Thunderdome is the sort of thing you do while you're trying to get good enough for other things. Consider this permission to stop giving worthless fucks about avatars or losing in a stupid internet thread. Consider this permission to write whatever the gently caress you want, and lots of it.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 04:23
|
|
|
Motherfuck fuckermuck. Okay so I pulled my head out of my rear end and I'm in this week. It happens every week, I'm okay with that. I researched the details of the story, (vikings, died from an infection after a battle) and I've got a good mental image of how it went down. And I have ideas to explain how the drat story unfolds. But I start to write and it all goes to poo poo. So I deleted it, and started again. And then ignored anything and everything, (books, feedback, self doubt) and ended up just going in loving circles instead of building up to anything, showing anything, giving a poo poo about anything. If there's anything I've learned in my beat-downs here, it's that my grammar is rear end, my ideas are weak, and there's no reason to read or care about my story. With the exception of grammar, all those things happen before the story even begins, the idea, motivation, climax. This time, they're ALL ALREADY IN THE GODDAMN STORY, I just have to put words around it. How is it I am loving this up so bad? Just venting. And now I'm back to writing again.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 14:34
|
|
|
Learning to recognize that your lovely writing is lovely is the first step on the road to improvement. After writing a lot of poo poo, and rewriting and reworking that poo poo, you might end up with something that's merely a turd, and then a hairball, and eventually a marginally slimy lump of clay. Most of us are still in the poo poo/turd phase. However, never give up, never surrender!
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 14:49
|
|
|
Chexoid posted:Think of it this way, the ONLY result is you getting better. There is no way to get WORSE by writing. Alright, this may piss off some people, but here goes. There absolutley is a way to get worse by writing. Or, more accurately, to stay as bad as one currently is. Writing is a craft like every other craft. If a young person were learning how to play guitar, and they were observed to have horrible technique, no teacher worth their salt would tell them to 'just keep playing!' over and over again like some brain-dead mantra. The mistakes in technique must be explicitly corrected; exercises designed to squash problematic areas must be done before the young player can resume his or her attempt at playing real music. I don't know when or how 'just keep writing!!' became the standard-issue advice on writing forums, but all it really serves to accomplish is the kind of frustration people like Mag7 are experiencing right now. Telling someone that 'they loving suck and their writing is horrible' may feel really good for a writer to say; I'm sure it scratches that itch to feel better about oneself by tearing others down, but it's disingenuous to suggest that this actually helps anyone improve. I do very much understand the frustration one can feel while trying to help anyone else improve their craft. I myself have lost it several times in this very thread when inexperienced writers show up only to poo poo the bed when they find out they aren't brilliant. I think Thunderdome is a great idea to get feedback from outside the (incredibly) harmful echo chamber of friends and family, but a significant amount of the feedback I've seen there is long on vitriol and short on specifics. magnificent7 posted:How is it I am loving this up so bad? Mag7, I've read your stuff. Before you do ANY more writing, I'd like you to buy and fully read these three very helpful and informative books. http://www.amazon.com/Art-Fiction-Notes-Craft-Writers/dp/0679734031 This is the best overall view of what it truly means to write fiction, and some good strategies to go forward with that. Gardner gets a bit ramble-y, but the dude wrote Grendel so cut him some slack.  http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Tools...ols+for+writers An excellent, wonderful book on basic and intermediate prose and sentence-building techniques. In terms of actual craft, this book improved my writing threefold. http://www.amazon.com/Story-Enginee...ory+engineering Maybe one of the only books of its kind. Once you've learned how to write cleaner, stronger prose, this book will teach you what goes into making effective and gripping fiction. Story arc, act structure, dramatic tension, plot points etc. are all discussed in detail. It's great that you have a passion for your ideas but there are fundamental--near universal--building blocks of good fiction/prose that you haven't yet grasped. You can get there! Do the work, put the time in, and for god's sake, correct your errors before you continue to write with them and develop more bad habits!
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 15:05
|
|
|
He said he's started several books on writing but never finished them, which i assume means he's read several times how to construct the elements of a story. He shouldn't JUST keep writing, he should write and get feedback and adapt. In your guitar analogy a music teacher has you come in and play for them each week so they can see your problem areas. Mag7 has several people here willing to help him improve so he should write and get crits and then revise and learn, not read endlessly. Sooner or later you have to stop reading and jump in. Writing is more like loving than playing music. A book on sex ed is useful to a point, but no matter how much you read about it you're going to be terrible until you pull your pants down and go at it (and you'll be terrible at first but if you get feed back you can become a good lover).
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 16:22
|
|
|
Yeah, continuing to write in a vacuum just means you end up repeating the same mistakes and bad habits, which only serves to strengthen them.Chillmatic posted:Telling someone that 'they loving suck and their writing is horrible' may feel really good for a writer to say; I'm sure it scratches that itch to feel better about oneself by tearing others down, but it's disingenuous to suggest that this actually helps anyone improve. Correct. People, in general, react in predictable ways to certain phrasings and forms of feedback. Therapists have to teach couples communication techniques because "gently caress you, you loving fucker," usually isn't a great vehicle for inspiring transformation and deepening intimacy in a relationship. If you sincerely want someone to hear and heed your critique or advice, you need to package it in a form that the other person is likely to at least find palatable, if not necessarily agreeable. There are tried-and-true methods for providing feedback, critiques, and criticisms to people. If you get off more on lording over or unloading onto your inferiors, or if you're so disgusted with a particular person that you honestly hope they never pick up a pen again, you at least need to be honest with yourself about that, instead of pretending that you're doing the world a much-needed service by being "brutally honest" (read: brutal).
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 16:59
|
|
|
crabrock posted:He said he's started several books on writing but never finished them, which i assume means he's read several times how to construct the elements of a story. And to the comment that you can't get worse, I'm living proof that in fact you can. My first submission was half-good, (5 out of 10 score?) my second was better than the one person I was competing against, my third was counted as one of the worst three, and my last two have been official losers. There's something to be said about starting out knowing nothing, then learning the rules only to be paralyzed by them. I like your analogy that writing is like loving. In the meantime hey hey I finished my first draft. Crabrock, do you want it NOW in case it's a crappy idea, or would you rather the final thing? I'd rather send you the final draft.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 17:28
|
|
|
crabrock posted:Writing is more like loving than playing music. Wait, what? That is one of the absolute most embarrassing things I've ever heard a writer say. Writing is a craft like any other and the basics of it must be learned before someone, anyone, can write well. How, specifically, are things like music, painting, or photography not like writing in that regard? Would you say that learning how to sing or take photographs is 'like loving' also? People who say things like that provide only endless frustration to new writers. You're completely discrediting the entire craft and art of writing using a horrible, awful, analogy (sex, of all things; an already touchy topic with problematic ego implications) that is confusing at best, and devastating at worst. As though you just have to magically become amazing at writing by doing it all the time without any regard to the study of what makes great writing great. Writing is nothing like sex anymore than becoming a good public speaker is like sex or learning how to drive a car is like sex. quote:In your guitar analogy a music teacher has you come in and play for them each week so they can see your problem areas. Mag7 has several people here willing to help him improve so he should write and get crits and then revise and learn, not read endlessly. First of all, you've clearly never had guitar lessons. You don't simply "come in and play for the guy". They...uh...teach you how to loving play guitar. And they do so waaaay before you start trying to play songs for them. Second, it is questionable--I hate to say--that a given random person on the internet will be qualified to actually help, as our hypothetical music instructor would be. It's subjective, of course; it's always up to person seeking advice to decide whether what they're hearing or being 'taught' is helping. But Mag7, dude. You completely ignored everything I said and then proceeded to say 'well I'm pretty much going to stay the course.' By itself that wouldn't be a problem; as I said before, it's up to you to decide the merit of any advice you're being given--but jesus loving christ, man. You're actually telling us how much worse you've gotten since you started doing Thunderdome, and yet you still blow off some very different advice/suggestions and will just keep doing the same thing that's gotten you into this mess? quote:There's something to be said about starting out knowing nothing, then learning the rules only to be paralyzed by them. You don't know the rules. Your writing makes this abundantly clear. That's why I recommended the books I did. Oh, but right, you've 'tried that already' and it didn't work out, so gently caress it. Right? God, how long did it take for you to become worth a poo poo as a musician? Did you "just play" all the time until you became awesome? Or, perhaps, did a few people along the way show you what you needed to know and give you the tools you needed to be successful? Maybe you did some research into the craft of music? Do what you want, man. But consider how pathetic it looks for you to continue on a path that has thus far amounted to a grand total of: 1. A half-dozen god-awful stories (getting progressively worse as you go) and 2. You publicly whining and complaining on an internet forum. I'll let you be the judge of how well your current approach is working out for you. Chillmatic fucked around with this message at 20:08 on May 30, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 19:55
|
|
|
Loling at your problematic sex ego
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 20:23
|
|
|
crabrock posted:Loling at your problematic sex ego I've no doubt that your own sexual prowess is beyond reproach. Just consider that your dumb advice may actually be hurting other writers' progress, alright?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 20:30
|
|
|
Chillmatic posted:stuff
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 20:35
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:Jesus Christ man. Ease up. Be gentle with him, it's either this or he leans out his window and screams at the moon until the neighbors complain.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 20:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 18:33 |
|
|
I'm constantly being given step by step breakdowns of my sex mistakes, so speak for yourself.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2013 20:56
|
|