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Sheep-Goats posted:I know bartenders in their 50s and it ain't no job for an older guy/gal. The only ones that don't seem totally busted are the ones with union casino jobs or ritzy hotel bars, but there's crosshairs on every one of them from management. I'd probably get a job a the local VFW haha. Most bars where old people hang out don't want young bartenders so there is a market for them although it is admittedly small. If I can't do that then I guess I'll bag groceries until I'm dead 
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Aug 13, 2012 22:24
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I'm watching the poo poo out of Bar Rescue right now
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Aug 13, 2012 23:24
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Attn GMs: Hire older bartenders; I don't trust anybody younger than me to fix anything more complicated than a gin and tonic, and they'll probably gently caress up the gin:tonic:ice ratio. Now where's my goddamn manhattan? 
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Aug 14, 2012 04:27
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Frozen Horse posted:Attn GMs: Hire older bartenders; I don't trust anybody younger than me to fix anything more complicated than a gin and tonic, and they'll probably gently caress up the gin:tonic:ice ratio. Now where's my goddamn manhattan? Maybe you're going to the wrong bars. If I want a beer, I go next door to the pub. If I want a Manhattan, I go to my steakhouse, or over to a fancy hotel bar. Speaking of my steakhouse and their wicked cocktails, what do you all feel about this presentation: each cocktail is mixed, and poured into a tiny little carafe, which in then put in a bowl surrounded by crushed ice. This is served with a chilled cocktail glass. I like it. It keeps the cocktail chilled properly without dilution, and it just seems very ritzy and clever. I've never seen it anywhere else, though.
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Aug 14, 2012 04:31
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My manager decided it would be best to have a bar meeting on Wednesday at 2pm. I have to be at work at 3pm. I really don't feel like coming into work an hour early when they're not actually going to fix any of the issues I bring up. But I'm going to do it anyway, just to throw it at them. I got my rear end kicked last night because our service bartender decided it was in her best interest to leave 2 hours early. So I had to cover the service bar and the bar as a whole (I have 32 seats at my bar and they were all full) because some manager said she could go early for no reason. If i'm not tipping you out, you're getting paid hourly, you cannot leave early. This ended up costing me money because I couldn't give a good level of service to our guests and I'm not getting paid to make drinks for the servers, she is. I'm tired of this poo poo.
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Aug 14, 2012 04:41
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edit: whoops, wrong thread
zmcnulty fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Aug 14, 2012 |
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Aug 14, 2012 04:58
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Are you supposed to ask what scotch to put in the Rusty Nail? Scotch can be fairly varied and that goes extra for its drinkers. I don't know if I really belong in the list, but some beginner (or accidental) bartenders might be in a similar situation and have questions, so I guess I'll put my name on there. odiv - Fitness club bartender. Mostly low volume with some pretty busy events a few times a year. edit: zmcnulty: That's weird, it seemed like the right thread.
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Aug 14, 2012 05:15
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Wasn't necessarily the wrong thread but didn't really want to bring up the discussion again. "Wrong thread" seemed like the easiest excuse. It's like globalization, no point in arguing over it since there's no right answer. To answer your Rusty Nail question. I've had them with scotch (single malt and blends) and bourbons and enjoy them all. If asked though, I'll say blended, if only because I don't want to waste a good single malt in a Rusty Nail. And blends tend to be cheaper should the bartender decides to charge based on ingredients. zmcnulty - not a bartender in any professional capacity whatsoever, just something I might attempt if I get laid off. If anyone wants to know about bars/drinking in Japan though, ask away zmcnulty fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Aug 14, 2012 |
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Aug 14, 2012 05:23
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odiv posted:Are you supposed to ask what scotch to put in the Rusty Nail? Scotch can be fairly varied and that goes extra for its drinkers. Just use a cheap blend unless they specify. JW red is fine. Anything pricier and the Drambuie just shits it up really. It's supposed to be an affordable low brow kind of scotch drink, something for a blue collar guy. Not a frufru thing. Daric posted:My manager decided it would be best to have a bar meeting on Wednesday at 2pm. I have to be at work at 3pm. I really don't feel like coming into work an hour early when they're not actually going to fix any of the issues I bring up. If she leaves early she gets hourly tips. Take all the server tip outs and divide them up based on a weighted average of hours worked. So if you were service for 3 hours and she was for 6 you'd get 3/9 times the total and she'd get 6/9. This is absolutely standard and if she has the gall to demand all of it then get in her face. raton fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Aug 14, 2012 |
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Aug 14, 2012 08:08
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Sheep-Goats posted:Just use a cheap blend unless they specify. JW red is fine. Anything pricier and the Drambuie just shits it up really. It's supposed to be an affordable low brow kind of scotch drink, something for a blue collar guy. Not a frufru thing. Not how it works at our restaurant. Bartenders split tips between us the way you're saying. Service bartender gets paid $13 an hour just to make server's drinks. They don't get tips.
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Aug 14, 2012 08:17
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Daric posted:Not how it works at our restaurant. Oh. Then either she can't leave or mgmt gets to pay you 13 extra an hour while you do two jobs. Or the servers can make their own drinks. But who am I kidding. Someone just goes "HEY YOU AT THE BAR, YEAH, YOU, EAT A PILE OF poo poo" and you have to or else they will take you off your shifts.
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Aug 14, 2012 08:22
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Sheep-Goats posted:Oh. Then either she can't leave or mgmt gets to pay you 13 extra an hour while you do two jobs. Or the servers can make their own drinks. Yeah, the bar portion of the restaurant isn't run very well. I'm going to bring up a lot of stuff at this meeting because there's just too much stuff that's out of control. They keep moving up new people that just aren't getting it. Hell, they're training a new guy now and there's not a single open shift for him to take. The last guy they trained barely has 2 shifts.
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Aug 14, 2012 08:25
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PT6A posted:Speaking of my steakhouse and their wicked cocktails, what do you all feel about this presentation: each cocktail is mixed, and poured into a tiny little carafe, which in then put in a bowl surrounded by crushed ice. This is served with a chilled cocktail glass. We just started doing this for martinis served on our patio and I think it's a great idea to combat a drink heating up without having to compromise on dilution.
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Aug 14, 2012 08:43
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Daric posted:Yeah, the bar portion of the restaurant isn't run very well. I'm going to bring up a lot of stuff at this meeting because there's just too much stuff that's out of control. They keep moving up new people that just aren't getting it. Hell, they're training a new guy now and there's not a single open shift for him to take. The last guy they trained barely has 2 shifts. Don't bother. They bring people in without having shifts for them on purpose. Then they can say "oh Gunther needs shifts" and dilute someone else's. Keeps the staff hungry, which keeps them divided and cheap. Again, let me assure you that this isn't accidental blundering. It's strategy. That's how some places are run. Limit yourself to one thing a meeting and make it something minor and easily fixable. The meetings are just window dressing, management doesn't give two shits what anyone says in those meetings.
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Aug 14, 2012 15:03
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Sheep-Goats posted:Just use a cheap blend unless they specify. JW red is fine. Anything pricier and the Drambuie just shits it up really. It's supposed to be an affordable low brow kind of scotch drink, something for a blue collar guy. Not a frufru thing. I cannot take anyone talking about Drambuie as 'blue collar' seriously because of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfOXVNdivLE
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Aug 14, 2012 15:22
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It's blue collar, not bogan. Like the video though.
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Aug 14, 2012 15:26
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nrr posted:We just started doing this for martinis served on our patio and I think it's a great idea to combat a drink heating up without having to compromise on dilution. I'm not sure, but it seems like you end up getting a lot more cocktail at the place I'm talking about. I don't know if the martini glasses are smaller than average, but it always requires at least two pours. Two martinis can get your dinner off to a very memorable start (contrary to the end of the meal, which you probably won't be remembering).
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Aug 14, 2012 16:03
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Sheep-Goats posted:Don't bother. They bring people in without having shifts for them on purpose. Then they can say "oh Gunther needs shifts" and dilute someone else's. Keeps the staff hungry, which keeps them divided and cheap. I'm going to bring the stuff up in the meeting and then take it to the GM. They've asked me to be a manager (this is kind of a chain restaurant but not exactly) and my dad is an old fraternity brother of the concept leader so I feel like if I give him some notes next time he comes in, he'll at least consider them. And it's easy stuff. Like, we serve our beer in frosted mugs. I would prefer to serve cold beer, not a cold glass. And the cooler for the glasses is set too cold so when the beer hits the glass, it immediately foams up. So they're losing a lot of money just on wasted beer. It's just stupid stuff. We are a New Orleans style restaurant, that's cool, I love cajun food and I think it's a cool concept. We have 8 beers on tap. They are: Bud Light Dos Equis Lager Shiner Bock Stella Artois Saint Arnold's Elissa IPA (St. Arnold's is a craft brewery here in Houston and they're great) Sam Adams Octoberfest Shock Top and last, and definitely least, Abita Turbodog Abita is a craft brewery from Louisiana. Having an Abita beer on tap is a great idea because it goes along with our concept. But instead of having the Abita Golden on tap, which goes really well with fish and our food they put the Stout in there in the middle of the Texas summer and they're having us serve them in a frozen glass. I've sold 1 Turbodog in the 2 months it's been on tap. And with the St. Arnold's beer, I love the IPA. It's a really great beer, not too hoppy even though it's an IPA and I'm glad we're trying to support craft breweries at least a little bit. But, if you're going to have the IPA, have it in a bottle. Put a different St. Arnold's beer on tap that's going to sell more like the Lawnmower which goes with blackened fish, which is about 50% of the items on our menu. This is pretty stream of consciousness and I'll make a more concise write-up but overall my bar manager has good ideas, but terrible execution.
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Aug 14, 2012 17:36
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Sheep-Goats posted:Again, let me assure you that this isn't accidental blundering. It's strategy. That's how some places are run. Limit yourself to one thing a meeting and make it something minor and easily fixable. The meetings are just window dressing, management doesn't give two shits what anyone says in those meetings. Ding ding ding. I honestly wouldn't even complain to management about the service bartender leaving early, they did that on purpose to save hours. That problem could be solved by making them tipped employees but that's neither here nor there. Management could give two shits about how you feel about it because you can be replaced easily. Pick your battles and don't complain about poo poo that management does to save money or you'll just be pegged a whiner. Complaining about the beer mugs is a much better idea and is constructive, that's picking your battles the right way. Tony Jowns posted:I cannot take anyone talking about Drambuie as 'blue collar' seriously because of Drambuie does taste like poo poo, but those dudes have some serious manhood issues. Applebees Appetizer fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Aug 14, 2012 |
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Aug 14, 2012 17:43
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leica posted:Ding ding ding. I honestly wouldn't even complain to management about the service bartender leaving early, they did that on purpose to save hours. That problem could be solved by making them tipped employees but that's neither here nor there. Management could give two shits about how you feel about it because you can be replaced easily. Pick your battles and don't complain about poo poo that management does to save money or you'll just be pegged a whiner. Complaining about the beer mugs is a much better idea and is constructive, that's picking your battles the right way. You guys really aren't getting my restaurant. They didn't do it on purpose to save hours. The manager that let her go is also a bartender. She asked him to leave and he doesn't give a poo poo so she left. This is a place where they will happily let us take service bar shifts in overtime. At time and a half that's like $20 an hour. They really don't care. This isn't a bar first, restaurant second, it's a pretty expensive seafood restaurant with a bar. It's a Pappas restaurant for anyone in Texas who will recognize that name.
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Aug 14, 2012 17:51
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Daric posted:It's a Pappas restaurant for anyone in Texas who will recognize that name. And that's the reason nothing will ever change at PDX; because Pappas managers would rather have 6 extra servers on the floor than a table have to wait five minutes to be sat. It's the same with the bar, and no meetings that a bar manager has is going to change anything. And don't go into management at Pappas, unless you hate your life.
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Aug 14, 2012 18:36
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Fair enough, you should know the intricacies of your bar and how management does things. In my experience working in the hospitality business, management is very aware of hourly wages, who has what hours and tries to avoid overtime as much as possible. You could have explained a little more detail earlier so we'd understand better, but it sounds to me if the manager doesn't care either way then you should hash it out with the service bartender.
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Aug 14, 2012 18:45
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Coming from Australia, it's hilarious to me how much owners try and cut costs by cutting staff out here. What are you paying to have that bartender on for an extra hour? The price of a beer or two? It used to cost $29 an hour on weekends to have me on back home in oz (and that was 8-9 years ago, I can only imagine what it is now) and I can clearly understand why I'd get cut if it wasn't worth having me around. Out here though, is cutting a bartender or calling them in late really worth the tradeoff in service that you're providing? It sometimes makes me wonder just how bright management is, trying to save an extra couple of bucks to make the customers wait longer when your customers are really the ones paying for your staff anyway. Sure, maybe it's the best bet sometimes and I know every dollar counts, but if you really need to save $8 then you might want to look into other areas that you could be more efficient first In my old club my owner started holding off bartender starts by half an hour to an hour and refusing to pay us for setup time to "cut costs" by making a grand total savings of maybe $10-$15. While literally every second night the ATM (which he owned) would go out of order or run out of money, costing him literally hundreds of dollars in lost revenue and he refused to get it serviced or stock it with more cash. Good thing you saved that $4 on not having both bars open at the same time, genius, because those guys that just spent $400 in here and have another 1-2k to spend between them just had to walk out the door because you're too cheap to keep the ATM running.
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Aug 14, 2012 23:15
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These threads are awesome. I'm on like page 16 of one of the old threads, but I do have some questions that I haven't seen an answer for yet. 1: When it comes to practicing at home, is it possible to buy some empty bottles, or just go to like a bar and ask for some? I figure I can fill those with water/apple juice/etc just to get used to pouring. 2: I saw that list of drinks James Woods suggested people memorize. Should I know how to make that stuff by doing it at home first? I ask because I'm not a huge drinker, and well, that's a lot of booze. 3: Is it better in your opinion to go for barback first? Or should I just say gently caress it and try getting a 'tenders job straight out? 4: Bar shifts. I have a job I work Fri-Sat-Sun. It pays about 10/hr and I work 8-5. It's an okay job, but if I got the chance, should I take a bartending fri-sat-sun job and tell those people I have to work weekdays/quit?
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Aug 15, 2012 00:52
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Bash Ironfist posted:These threads are awesome. I'm on like page 16 of one of the old threads, but I do have some questions that I haven't seen an answer for yet. 1) I know if someone came asking me for bottles I wouldn't give it to them, but that's because we have some kind of business arrangement here to get deposit money back (there's a bottle-deposit charge here in BC). Try your local liquor store if they take empties back; otherwise I don't think it really matters what kind of bottle you use, most are fairly similar and the weird ones (I'm looking at you, Dissarono) never really feel good to pour with anyway - and probably won't have spouts at whatever bar you're working at first. Practicing pouring is for muscle memory with respect to timing your pours, all you really need for that is a glass bottle (750mL or 1140mL - that's a 26oz or a 40oz), to get used to the weight, and a couple different spouts (that is, spouts of different end widths) to get used to timing your pours. You might also want to get a 1oz and 2oz shot-glass and a metal shaker. They'll help you measure out your shots and get a feeling for timing. Also, some regions (like here in British Columbia) pouring into a 1oz shot glass first with hard liquor is mandatory - no timed pours. 2)I doubt you need to really buy all that stuff, you should probably just memorize the ingredients/process and know what the bottles look like. 3) Yes, it will be easier to find a job this way. But if you get offered a bar position immediately I would take it. It might be rough-going at first but a few weeks in at most you should be much more comfortable than your first couple shifts (my first shift ever was on a busy karaoke night with one other tender and I essentially took on a barback roll in all but name). 4) I don't know what minimum wage is where you are, here in Vancouver it's now $10.25 - assuming your minimum isn't much lower than that, absolutely. You'll undoubtedly make as much or more money in tips. (I wouldn't worry though - you likely won't get the Friday/Saturday evening shifts at first).
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Aug 15, 2012 01:03
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JawKnee posted:1) I know if someone came asking me for bottles I wouldn't give it to them, but that's because we have some kind of business arrangement here to get deposit money back (there's a bottle-deposit charge here in BC). Try your local liquor store if they take empties back; otherwise I don't think it really matters what kind of bottle you use, most are fairly similar and the weird ones (I'm looking at you, Dissarono) never really feel good to pour with anyway - and probably won't have spouts at whatever bar you're working at first. Hey, thanks! Those are good ideas. Minimum wage here in California(Not sure if L.A has a seperate wage) is about 8.25/hr I believe. I'm glad I don't have to buy all that booze. Not a lot of money on me atm. Where can I buy bottles like that? Or can it just be any sort of bottle? Also, the spouts. Best to buy it online, or a shop?
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Aug 15, 2012 01:07
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You can probably find spouts easily enough at a local restaurant supply store - ask for a tapered spout, and a speed spout (or fast-pour spout). Don't get ones with cork stoppers, get the rubber/plastic stoppers - the cork will degrade and you'll end up having to buy new ones. You might also occasionally run across econo-pour spouts - which automatically measure out 1oz for you (I've seen these in hotels and a couple of bars) - they are worthless to you at this point, avoid them. As for bottles, any glass liquor bottle will do (don't use a wine bottle - while they might work fine the length of the neck is often longer than a liquor bottle and could throw you off). Absent the few odd bottles (Galliano, Luxardo, Dissarono, Don Julio and the like) most are cylindrical with short necks, a few are square or some other basic geometric shape - your average vodka or whiskey bottle should be fine. You might be able to buy empty bottles like this at a brew shop, but I don't really know - maybe just pick up whatever you like to drink?
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Aug 15, 2012 01:22
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JawKnee posted:You can probably find spouts easily enough at a local restaurant supply store - ask for a tapered spout, and a speed spout (or fast-pour spout). Don't get ones with cork stoppers, get the rubber/plastic stoppers - the cork will degrade and you'll end up having to buy new ones. You might also occasionally run across econo-pour spouts - which automatically measure out 1oz for you (I've seen these in hotels and a couple of bars) - they are worthless to you at this point, avoid them. Thanks a lot! I'll look around for a restaurant supply store, there's probably several, considering it's Los Angeles. As for the bottles: My main go-to is a gin and tonic. Sometimes Vodka and tonic with a splash of citrus. Might buy the stuff to make one of the drinks on the list. That way I can try them, and have the bottles/booze to practice with! Edit: I have half a handle of Jose Cuevo gold. I'll practice shots with that, and just pour it back in. Had a bad experience with it a while ago. The smell makes me gag a little now.
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Aug 15, 2012 01:33
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My first job in the service industry was as a hostess on the opening staff of a restaurant in Florida. One of the things the owner/chef drilled into our tiny little skulls before we opened was that you do not, under any circumstances, scoop ice with the destination glass. Glass is clear and glass can break - the gently caress are you gonna do if you break a glass in the ice machine/ice bucket? I'm now a shift manager at a hotel/restaurant/bar in New Mexico, with my duties primarily being on the hotel side, but I spend a reasonable amount of time in the bar and restaurant. I see bartenders scooping ice directly into glasses, and it kind of freaks me out. Is that a frowned-upon thing or did I just have a really anal retentive owner/chef back in Florida?
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Aug 15, 2012 01:49
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twigplant posted:My first job in the service industry was as a hostess on the opening staff of a restaurant in Florida. One of the things the owner/chef drilled into our tiny little skulls before we opened was that you do not, under any circumstances, scoop ice with the destination glass. Glass is clear and glass can break - the gently caress are you gonna do if you break a glass in the ice machine/ice bucket? It is 100% wrong and a health inspector or bar spotter will bust you for it. However, you will probably never stop it. Ever.
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Aug 15, 2012 02:04
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Scooping with a glass is absolutely a dumb move, and your co-workers/staff should know so. Burning a well is No Fun. You might also run through what to do if they do break a glass in the well with them - I didn't get this kind of training and the first time I shattered a wine glass in a well I just kind of stood there for second; now luckily I was the only tender on at that point and business was slow - but if you've got a shared well and another tender doesn't see what you've done... Best method I've seen, as soon as it happens drench the ice in some grenadine, scoop as much into a free bar sink as possible, get a fresh bucket of ice to make drinks from until you're done, if you have a coffee maker get a jug of boiling water for washing down the ice you couldn't scoop out of the well. VVVVV Paints the ice a virulent red, but as Shooting Blanks says, training in that situation is paramount VVVVV JawKnee fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Aug 15, 2012 |
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Aug 15, 2012 02:05
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What's the purpose of the grenadine dump? e: I assume it does something to make the ice melt faster, but do elaborate!
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Aug 15, 2012 02:11
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The two most important parts are grenadine and communication - if the rest of the bar staff doesn't know what red ice means, it's pointless. I once had a new barback that had never had to burn a well before, and twice in one night before I caught him did the guy just hose the grenadine off with the soda gun. Not his fault for not knowing, but be sure to communicate what red ice means, and what to do about it. Edit: ^^ Because it's very high in sugar content, it sticks to the ice very well, and your ice well will turn bright red. Any bartender will look at it and immediately realize that SOMETHING is wrong with the ice in that well. ^^
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Aug 15, 2012 02:11
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Here I was being all focused on functionality that I forgot that red is like the universal color for "No, stop."
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Aug 15, 2012 02:23
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Heh, sometimes I take for granted how awesome it is working with plastic cups. I was at a bar down the beach recently to visit a fellow bartender, and as I was watching her scrub glasses it reminded me of how much of a pain in the rear end it was to be in the weeds and having to stop to wash glasses because I ran out of rocks glasses or whatever.
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Aug 15, 2012 02:55
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leica posted:Heh, sometimes I take for granted how awesome it is working with plastic cups. I was at a bar down the beach recently to visit a fellow bartender, and as I was watching her scrub glasses it reminded me of how much of a pain in the rear end it was to be in the weeds and having to stop to wash glasses because I ran out of rocks glasses or whatever. What kind of place do you work at that uses plastic cups? Or does it use both plastic and glass? The bars I've been to mainly use glass. But I've seen/talked to bartenders who will pull out plastic cups when they're serving college kids who are doing jaeger bomb after bomb, because they know those kids are gonna get hosed up real quick and don't want to have to deal with them dropping and smashing glasses. I got a free drink for keeping that very thing from happening. Some smashed college frat boy was waving around this mostly-empty glass, and it flew from his hand, and I managed to catch it. The bartender gave me a shot of tequila in a glass you normally drink like a whiskey sour in. Half full too. I woke up the next morning with the devil loving my brain.
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Aug 15, 2012 03:42
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I used to scoop ice with the glass a lot at one place I worked as we had those thick walled indestructible Libbey glasses there (though I don't recommend following my example). At my other jobs I used to bring in a huge rear end ice scoop that could ice three tumblers in one shot, but it's more rational to just use the tin. Anyway, despite my bad habits I do think that glass directly in the ice is as close as it gets to a inarguably Wrong Thing in a bar.
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Aug 15, 2012 04:33
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Bash Ironfist posted:What kind of place do you work at that uses plastic cups? Or does it use both plastic and glass? The bars I've been to mainly use glass. But I've seen/talked to bartenders who will pull out plastic cups when they're serving college kids who are doing jaeger bomb after bomb, because they know those kids are gonna get hosed up real quick and don't want to have to deal with them dropping and smashing glasses. Congrats on your first safety meeting
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Aug 15, 2012 04:37
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Bash Ironfist posted:What kind of place do you work at that uses plastic cups? The bar I work at is right on the beach and glass is not allowed by law. Cops give out tickets for a hundred bucks a bottle. I've seen people get busted with a cooler full of beer bottles, you do the math.
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Aug 15, 2012 04:38
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leica posted:The bar I work at is right on the beach and glass is not allowed by law. Cops give out tickets for a hundred bucks a bottle. I've seen people get busted with a cooler full of beer bottles, you do the math. Ahh, I didn't know that! A bar right on the beach sounds like a pretty nice place to work, scenery-wise. Growing up as a beach kid, that seems like an awesome place to bar tend. nrr posted:Congrats on your first safety meeting Well, thanks? Not sure what you mean. So here's the thing. I have a job I don't really hate, the people I work for are pretty nice, and they pay me over minimum wage. But I have an aunt and cousin moving in with us, and the 3 days I work just isn't enough money. I know some people have said a good way to get in is to barback. But it seems like barbacks tend to make minimum wage. I'm wondering if it'd be worth the risk of taking a full-time barback job and gamble on maybe getting promoted, versus sticking with this job, practicing a lot at home, and lying my rear end off hoping to get a bar tending job. I don't really know enough people to put a bunch of people down as fake bosses/other bartenders. I'm 26 and male, but I LOOK younger. Young enough that I constantly get carded not only for drinks, but smokes too, even at the place I buy my cigs from regularly. So I don't think my appearance would be a huge factor in it, besides being a dude. But from what I've read, it sounds like it's an insanely hard job to get into. Plus, I live in Los Angeles, so there's that factor. I don't mean to go e/n on this poo poo or anything, but some input from dudes who've been in the bar tending scene a while would help me out a lot!
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Aug 15, 2012 05:21
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