Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«1306 »
  • Post
  • Reply
KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Throatwarbler posted:

During that period GM had *checks notes* 6 different V6 engine families in its lineup

Buick 3800
60* V6
90* V6 SBC used in the base trucks
High Value V6
High Feature V6
The 54* Opel V6 used in the Saturn Vues that didn't use the Honda V6

Plus the LX5 V6 Northstar and the Atlas Inline-6. Plus 5 different displacement/NA/Turbo/Supercharged versions of each. And an Inline 5 Atlas because why not.

GM Today: Welp, no manual transmission Corvette because it would cost too much to certify another drivetrain with the EPA.

i mean the reason that they aren't certifiying more drivetrains is that they appear to have actually learned a lesson from the early 2000s.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


cakesmith handyman posted:

I only know that because of your megatruck engine shenanigans. How are you thinking of getting that cross country if you get everything else in a trailer?

I'm debating selling it and buying a wrecker 5 ton on the other side of the country. I need a wrecker way more than a cargo truck anyways.

BigPaddy posted:

Chevy, Olds, Buick and Pontiac V8 are all entirely different. Olds, Buick and Pontiac share the bellhousing pattern so you can interchange the trans but that is about it. Want to use a chevy distributor in a Pontiac? Nope they turn different directions. All the engine mounts are different as well so you can’t just use a LS mount kit without modifying the frame mounts on most B bodies, A bodies there are kits since the frames are the same.

Also the engine designs didn’t really stabilize until the mid 60s and for Pontiac at least there are 4 different intakes and head designs from 1950 to 1965 and there are no aftermarket options for anything pre 1965. The other thing with Pontiac V8s is that because there is not big block and small block definition it is all one design you cannot use heads designed for a 389 and above to work on a 350 or below without chamfers due to the bore size on the smaller engines. This means Pontiac 350s are relatively cheap and anyone who wants power has to find a 65 to 68 389 or a 68 and up 400 to 455 if they want to be able to just bolt on speed parts.

The tl;dr is if you have an old GM and want to hop up the engine just throw a SBC or BBC in it and enjoy the huge after market.

I... Uh... This offends me in ways I thought impossible.

kastein fucked around with this message at 12:21 on May 20, 2020

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



Please, give the Olds 307 its due.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



All the GM brands were run as competitors for a very long time.

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto.


wesleywillis posted:

IIRC, the 402 was just some weirded out version of the 396 that got a slightly bigger bore or something right? And it was installed in "396" cars and called a 396, but it just happened to be 402ci instead was it not?

That's surprisingly complicated, actually. In the Chevelle and Camaro it was still billed as a 396, presumably so they didn't have to throw out the SS396 badges. In the Monte Carlo and C10 pickup it was advertised as the 402. In (some?) full-size cars it was the Turbo-Fire Jet 400.

Q_res fucked around with this message at 15:18 on May 20, 2020

joat mon
Oct 15, 2009

I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.


Q_res posted:

That's surprisingly complicated, actually. In the Chevelle and Camaro it was still billed as a 396, presumably so they didn't have to throw out the SS396 badges. In the Monte Carlo and C10 pickup it was advertised as the 402. In (some?) full-size cars it was the Turbo-Fire 400.

The Turbo-Fire 400 was the 400 small block
The Turbo-Jet 400 was the 402 big block

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto.


Oops, right you are. Though I feel like me mixing up those two remarkably similar names is pretty understandable.

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



Thanks to all. Just wanted to give props because holy heck I didn't know about the 402 so I learned something.

And somehow it exists in terrible car stuff.

Fornax Disaster
Apr 11, 2005

If you need me I'll be in Holodeck Four.

Colostomy Bag posted:

Please, give the Olds 307 its due.

The Olds 307 is basically the 60s Olds 350 with a reduced bore. Because of this, some people have improved the performance of their late 80s GM cars by swapping in an engine manufactured twenty years earlier, which is not how technological progress is supposed to work.

Goober Peas
Jun 30, 2007

Check out my 'Vette, bro




Colostomy Bag posted:

Please, give the Olds 307 its due.

It never got fuel injecton.

Darchangel
Feb 12, 2009

Tell him about the blower!



Q_res posted:

Chevy, Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac all also built their own, unique 350s. And if you define a big block as an engine "capable of reaching comfortably over 400 cubic inches with a bore spacing of at least 4.500 inches" the Chevy and Buick 350s would be considered small blocks and the other two big blocks. I know technically nobody uses "Big Block" in relation to Pontiac because the 301, 303, 326, 350, 389, 400, 421, 428 and 455 are all the same block. But if you use that universal definition it does fit.

edit: Almost forgot, Chevy produced a 400 ci small block and a 402 ci big block simultaneously. 1970-72.

The Buick and Olds engines follow the same pattern as Pontiac. No true “big block” - the 400 cube and up engines are just a taller deck version of the “small block”. Can use the same heads, and front dress, water pump, timing cover. Intakes are wider, of course, so not interchangeable between small and big block, and the dizzy is taller.

Darchangel
Feb 12, 2009

Tell him about the blower!



kastein posted:

I... Uh... This offends me in ways I thought impossible.

I’d also point out that just throwing a SBC in a non-Chevy of the era is also generally offensive to the officianados of said cars. Even worse than an SBC in a Ford, sometimes.
I own a ‘70 Olds, proudly Olds-powered for the time being

Fornax Disaster posted:

The Olds 307 is basically the 60s Olds 350 with a reduced bore. Because of this, some people have improved the performance of their late 80s GM cars by swapping in an engine manufactured twenty years earlier, which is not how technological progress is supposed to work.

The 260 Olds, on the other hand, not only has tiny bores, but a shorter deck than the “small block” Olds. At least it could make V8 noises, and easily bolt up to existing chassis and drivetrains. Likewise, it could be easily replaced by a much better engine.

Goober Peas posted:

It never got fuel injecton.

Not as such, but the 350 Olds did, in the Cadillac Seville (and *only* the Cadillac’s Seville!), and the it could be swapped to the 307, if you wanted to do that for some reason.
They really should have put EFI on at least the roller-cam 307 in the Hurst Olds.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011



A new rotary from Mazda being taken to bits to check it's up to scratch. Yikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6YFQQ7FiIk

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





wesleywillis posted:

IIRC, the 402 was just some weirded out version of the 396 that got a slightly bigger bore or something right? And it was installed in "396" cars and called a 396, but it just happened to be 402ci instead was it not?

The apocryphal story that got posted on the 67-72 boards all the time was that there was apparently some water damage event (flood? sprinkler? idk) that caused minor damage to a shitload of blocks that was dealt with by machining the bores slightly larger instead of scrapping all the blocks. Sounds crazy, but given old GM, it's at least somewhat believable.

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.

Megamarm

Olympic Mathlete posted:

A new rotary from Mazda being taken to bits to check it's up to scratch. Yikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6YFQQ7FiIk

I think the info floating around about that motor is that it had actually clearly been opened before based on the sealant used and some other poo poo

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto.


Darchangel posted:

The Buick and Olds engines follow the same pattern as Pontiac. No true “big block” - the 400 cube and up engines are just a taller deck version of the “small block”. Can use the same heads, and front dress, water pump, timing cover. Intakes are wider, of course, so not interchangeable between small and big block, and the dizzy is taller.

Bore spacing between a Buick 350 (4.240")and a Buick 455 (4.750") are completely different, the 350 shares its block with the 300 and 340. I literally acknowledged that Pontiac only had one block, but by comparing it to companies that had a SB and a BB you can see that it would comfortably classify as a BB.

Q_res fucked around with this message at 23:42 on May 20, 2020

Memento
Aug 25, 2009




Clapping Larry

Olympic Mathlete posted:

A new rotary from Mazda being taken to bits to check it's up to scratch. Yikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6YFQQ7FiIk

That shot at 4:54 when he spins it on the stand and it starts pissing brown water is

emf
Jul 31, 2002




Colostomy Bag posted:

Please, give the Olds 307 its due.
I've owned two vehicles with Olds' 307: a 1980 Toronado, and a 1986 Caprice Estate (burgundy with wood panel). It was a remarkably quiet-running engine for it's day. It's 150 140 unenthusiastic ponies made it dog slow, though.

emf fucked around with this message at 01:04 on May 21, 2020

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto.


If Olds had been a little earlier with the 307 HO it very likely could have ended up in the 3rd gen Firebird. It was one of the alternatives they considered after GM killed the 301 Turbo.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





That reminds me of at least one other Stupid GM Fact - they built three different five liter GenI SBC engines over the years. 302, 305, and 307.

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto.


That one I actually give them a pass on, those engines all pretty much made perfect sense for their purpose and the timeframe of their introduction. Only the 302 and 307 were really contemporaries and they were very much opposite sides of the same coin. The 305 made perfect sense as a replacement for the 307 because it let you use 350 components you were already building.

taqueso
Mar 8, 2004









Fun Shoe

That engine is such a cute little cube, I want to love it.

Boaz MacPhereson
Jul 11, 2006

Day 12045 Ht10hands 180lbs
No Name
No lumps No Bumps Full life Clean
Two good eyes No Busted Limbs
Piss OK Genitals intact
Multiple scars Heals fast
O NEGATIVE HI OCTANE
UNIVERSAL DONOR
Lone Road Warrior Rundown
on the Powder Lakes V8
No guzzoline No supplies
ISOLATE PSYCHOTIC
Keep muzzled...


IOwnCalculus posted:

That reminds me of at least one other Stupid GM Fact - they built three different five liter GenI SBC engines over the years. 302, 305, and 307.

Yeah, and only one is worth a drat.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

So does anyone actually like any Gm products

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester


I've willingly owned two GMs.

Dr.Smasher
Nov 27, 2002

We will make everything... Metal

I've had an 85 Monte Carlo with a 350, a Buick GN, and a 93 S10 manual

I miss the GN and S10.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Throatwarbler posted:

So does anyone actually like any Gm products

I own three and I want to put a GM engine in the one that isn't.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


oldsmobile was cool, rip to a real one

coupedeville
Jan 1, 2012

MY ANACONDA DOM'T WANT NONE UNLESS U GOT CUM SON!

I'm still looking for a late 80s cadillac brougham sedan in good shape for a not ridiculous price. The 5 litre will be replaced with an LS because why not?

corgski
Feb 6, 2007



Throatwarbler posted:

So does anyone actually like any Gm products

The mid 80s-early 90s S-10 is a decent compact pickup with great parts availability thanks to Grumman LLVs.

90s Solo Cup
Feb 22, 2011

To understand the cup
He must become the cup





Colostomy Bag posted:

Please, give the Olds 307 its due.

Which one? The limp-wristed 140-hp version or the 180-hp HO version the 80s 442 used? Either way, just gimme a SBC or a LS.

coupedeville posted:

I'm still looking for a late 80s cadillac brougham sedan in good shape for a not ridiculous price. The 5 litre will be replaced with an LS because why not?

Had this post happened sometime around late 2009, I could have sold you mine for a song. I had a Gen II LT1 swap in mind, but those plans never gelled.

Throatwarbler posted:

So does anyone actually like any Gm products

Anything Northstar-powered, but I'm pretty sure that's listed somewhere in the DSM-IV as a mental illness.

The present-gen Impala's pretty neat

90s Solo Cup fucked around with this message at 04:33 on May 21, 2020

Number_6
Jul 23, 2006

BAN ALL GAS GUZZLERS

(except for mine)


Pillbug

Throatwarbler posted:

So does anyone actually like any Gm products

I liked the 4th gen F-bodies (owned an LT1 and LS1 Z28), and the Holden-bred Pontiac GTO (had one). Also liked the Corvette and V-series Cadillacs but those are/were too rich for my blood.

Mr. Wiggles
Dec 1, 2003

I would never shop at Costco. The paper towels won't fit into my sports car!


I currently have an 85 El Camino, I've raced a ton of 3rd gen Camaros, I've owned several J-bodies, 3 suburbans, a K20 pickup with 16.5 HMMWV wheels/tires, the Isuzu S10 clone, and my daily (state car) is an Impala.

So yeah, I've got some GM baggage.

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

A garden full of trees, and a pocket full of cheese.

The 305 was IIRC basically a 327 with a crank from a 283?

And of course, the requisite heads etc that flowed worse than a 327 etc...

Boaz MacPhereson
Jul 11, 2006

Day 12045 Ht10hands 180lbs
No Name
No lumps No Bumps Full life Clean
Two good eyes No Busted Limbs
Piss OK Genitals intact
Multiple scars Heals fast
O NEGATIVE HI OCTANE
UNIVERSAL DONOR
Lone Road Warrior Rundown
on the Powder Lakes V8
No guzzoline No supplies
ISOLATE PSYCHOTIC
Keep muzzled...


wesleywillis posted:

The 305 was IIRC basically a 327 with a crank from a 283?

And of course, the requisite heads etc that flowed worse than a 327 etc...

Nah, the 305 was a new block with a goofy bore size and a 350 crank. The 307 was a 283 with a 327 crank. At least the 307 was rated for a full 200 hp .

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto.


Yeah what he said.

302 = 327 with 283 crank
307 = 283 with 327 crank
305 = 350 with skinny bores

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



90s Solo Cup posted:



Anything Northstar-powered, but I'm pretty sure that's listed somewhere in the DSM-IV as a mental illness.



Seek help.

Darchangel
Feb 12, 2009

Tell him about the blower!



Q_res posted:

Bore spacing between a Buick 350 (4.240")and a Buick 455 (4.750") are completely different, the 350 shares its block with the 300 and 340. I literally acknowledged that Pontiac only had one block, but by comparing it to companies that had a SB and a BB you can see that it would comfortably classify as a BB.

Whoops, you're right on the Buick. I'm not an expert on them - Olds is my jam.

Q_res posted:

If Olds had been a little earlier with the 307 HO it very likely could have ended up in the 3rd gen Firebird. It was one of the alternatives they considered after GM killed the 301 Turbo.

There's a precedent for that, considering that the later 6.6 Trans Ams were Olds 403s.

Throatwarbler posted:

So does anyone actually like any Gm products

I've owned my '70 Cutlass for almost 30 years, and have had a '68 El Camino (regret selling), a '78 Monza, and an '81 Buick Regal, and enjoyed them all until they broke.No worse than any other hooptie I've owned. My wife bought and drove a '96 GMC Sonoma (manual, new), and a '00 Astro (used, but in '01), and they were fine.
Current stuff is too expensive for what it is, but that really applies to a lot of the manufacturers, in my opinion.
I like the new Vettes, and Caddy V-stuff as well, but LOL at affording that poo poo. Would have liked a G8 or Holden-based SS.

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



We poo poo on every manufacturer fairly equally.

GM takes the biggest hit just due to their size and the '70s '80s era of malaise (which of course was focused on via a documentary).

But good lord, back then if you told me that they could crank out something like the C8 I would think you were sniffing glue.

In short: All car companies have smart engineers. But bean counters and bad management usually ruin it all.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



i think people really poo poo on GM because of their patented habit of releasing kind of poo poo or otherwise nerfed product that has potential, dicking around, making it good, and then immediately killing it

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«1306 »