Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Staticpulse posted:

And that's exactly why you want a dedicated skill slot for Spell Ward. Even a rank 1 magic avoid will get those hit rates to ~25% or so.

Spell Ward is probably the single most essential skill in the game. Nothing benefits characters like effective immunity to status effects. Especially later in the game, when enemies drop the lower ranks of offensive spells, carrying only III and IV, but still have the status spells kicking. The AI's fetish for doing things regardless of if they help, when combined with the damaging spells costing 40+ while status spells cap at 30, means they'll be flinging Poison Mists even if saving up for Acid Rain is a much better choice. It applies to much more dangerous spells like Stormspark, Petrifog, or Black Williwaw. Spell Ward turns a Petrifog from taking 2 frontliners to 0.

The enemy's also terrible at setting up mages. This early Spellstrike is essential as magic is all about statuses and a good Spellstrike skill means Balmy Breeze is sleeping everyone in its range. Later, when high-end spells kick in, it's all about Spellcraft and Augment element to murderize people, and Expand Mind, Meditate, and other MP helping skills to cast said spells. The AI frequently forgoes all of these. Between that and your Spell Ward, an enemy Enchantress goes from making a statue garden to plinking your guys for 5 damage every now and then. This is huge in a game that values effective actions so much. Enemy mages essentially become blank slots in their roster, and your action economy gets a big swing, both from them not doing much to your side not having to clean up.

Quite a few classes top out at Spell Ward II, which isn't sufficient for nullifying status spells when others are getting III or IV, but still it's the difference between a 100% Shackle and 65%, which can sometimes save your rear end.

Spell Ward matters.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Helmet 10 Warehouse, as part of this being an RPG, I have become a horrible master of it. Besides the madness it also means I could make effortposts on classes using fell knowledge not meant for mortal man, if you like.

I'll not spoil any special classes until we get them, like White Knight. And I can easily avoid story spoilers. I'll have to mention elemental weapons and augment element equipment nigh constantly, though.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Let's start with some technical disclaimers. Every nonmonster class can use (though not always learn) every recruitment skill, ~ology, elemental augment and attenuate, status resistance and proof, Tactician I and II, Swiftfoot, Jump, and Wade I, Trajectory, and all 4 ranks of Field Alchemy. These will be omitted due to their sheer redundancy. Every class also has the first two ranks of Fortify, Resistance, and Spell Ward, and the first three of Truestrike, Trueflight, Dodge, Sidestep, and Constitution. I'll note the highest ranks of these skills the class gets, since it kind of matters. If a skill is entirely absent that means the class doesn't get it at all, like Expand Mind for classes with no MP.

Monsters do not get weapon skills, recruitment skills, Swiftfoot, Jump, or Field Alchemy. They're kind of odd.

Warrior



Races: Human, Winged, Lizardman, Lamia, Orc, Skeleton
RT: 32 Move: 4 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: Fists, Daggers, 1H Swords, 2H Swords, Axes, Hammers, Cudgels, Whips, Bows [1H], Crossbows [1H], Thrown
Armor: Heavy
Support: Rampart Aura II1, Counterattack IV, Knockback IV, Strengthen IV, Fortify III, Resistance II, Truestrike IV, Trueflight III, Dodge IV, Sidestep IV, Spell Ward II, Constitution IV
Other: Parry, Deflect, Overpower, Wade II, Siege
Action: Mighty Impact, Double Impact
Special: N/A

1: They can use the skill, but not learn it. It must be learned in a different class.

Soldier's the run-of-the-mill frontliner. They get a lot of weapon types, though the value of weapon ranks means switching a lot isn't really advised. Mighty Impact's 100% hit and auto-crit are handy, and Double Impact is a big boost to damage output. Access to Rampart Aura helps them control the flow of enemies while also ensuring dudes stay near them to get impacted in one way or the other.

Warriors are technically competent, to be sure, but their biggest problem is they have a lot of competition with no real reason to be picked. Ninjas and several special jobs get Double Attack to do the whole "hits twice" thing without having to spend 50 TP in the first place. Several other generic classes are competent frontliners but can do other things, like Knights with Heal and Instill Light for example. You've got classes that hit harder, take hits better, and have other tricks like magic or special moves. Why bother with Warrior when you've got so many better options?

The early early game they're fine, as you don't have that many classes. Late-story those other classes are all running about and the warrior struggles to even matter until you hit early-postgame, when they finally get Double Impact and elemental weapons to... almost keep up with other classes, but not quite. Unless you've got a very specific obsession, namely hitting twice with a 2H weapon or with a shield equipped, they don't have anything to make them stand out.

It's a hard life for the Warrior, ain't it?

Orange Fluffy Sheep fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Feb 26, 2014

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


I got a Lich earlier today! Now to wrap up the PoTD as quick as possible, level her up, and kidnap an orc just to see what classes it has! Or I could beg someone in here to post an orc's list for me. I'm pretty sure gremlins have familiar/rogue just like faeries do, though.

To celebrate getting a class this late in the loving game, it's the class that made it all possible!

Archer


I imagine he's trying to determine if that vague shape of a dude in the distance is the enemy commander, or Donnalto.

Races: Human, Winged, Skeleton, Lizardman, Lamia, Skeleton, Orc
RT: 26 Move: 3 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: Daggers*, Bows, Crossbows, Thrown
Armor: Medium
Support: Counterattack III, Knockback II, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Resistance II, Truestrike III, Trueflight IV, Dodge III, Sidestep IV, Spell Ward II, Constitution IV
Other: Parry, Deflect, Overpower
Action: Eagle Eye, Double Shot, Tremendous Shot
Special: N/A

*Sticker, Baldur, and Damasc daggers only.

The archer is the ranged equivalent of the warrior. As you might imagine, being able to attack more than one panel away is a huge bonus. You might also think the archer is balanced by some weakness.

It's really not.

The only generic class to get 2h bows, the archer is in a unique position of being able to hit, like, seven to a dozen panels away without having to bother to move. This allows archers to focus every fiber of their being on making arrows hit harder, and boy do they get to hit hard. A good archer can one-shot enemy mages without any sort of boost and one-shot nearly everything with tremendous shot. Seriously, golems are like the only exception because they take minimal damage from piercing. An amazing number of battles end up being your frontline letting the archers get shots in on the boss, and this plan works because archers get drat brutal. Their shots beat the warrior's impact in practicality due to this range and sheer oomph.

If they do have weaknesses, it's the obvious inability to do much in melee. Their daggers are basically token inclusions and having a dagger means having a 1h bow. Sometimes, the 2h bows get insane ranges like 6-9 that make shots awkward because you have to be so far away. Denam also has a bad habit of running up to fortified positions head-on and yelling at them, leaving your archers terrain that can hinder shots, like large height differences and obstacles.

Still, those are minor compared to what the archer brings. It's easily the best class in the game, in terms of how much value it generates throughout the game. The rear end-beginning of the game, when all you have is shortbows, is the only point they don't dominate. Bows never leave them wanting past that, and sometimes you get crazy things like Seige Bows +1 having on-hit Bound, or the elemental bows allowing the archer to cast instill element spells on themselves or friends. They're always ready to pick off mages, soften up knights, or sometimes just pick off everything that even looks at you funny as they chain tremendous shots.

While they can use crossbows proficiently, there's other classes that get 2h crossbows, but only archers get the 2h bows that let them rain arcing terror on enemies. Trajectory is also a great use of a skill slot because it lets you know which shots are possible or not, saving a lot of time and grief figuring out arrows's physics and flight paths, and sometimes it can shock you with how crazy of a shot is possible.

Have I gushed about archers enough I can do it all day. It and a unique spellcaster class are the only classes of which I run multiples.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


PFlats posted:

You can run multiples of a unique class? That seems... wrong.

It's unique in that only unique characters get it. White Knight is one, for example. I suppose "special class" is a better name.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Bregor posted:

(Now I hope this isn't the moment where someone tells me Spellcraft is useless just like Strengthen/Fortify :ohdear: )

40 points of magic are all that separate two of my light magic casters and one can barely crack >1 numbers and the other regularly shaves a third to half of a thing's HP with Judgment II. Then there's mages with 40 more than that and they can't not one-shot things with summons.

Since you've got me talking about spellcasters, let's talk about the basic one! A note, some classes have different names depending on the user's gender. This has no practical difference.

Wizard/Enchantress


"Don't tell anyone, but the beard's a fake. I can't grow a whisker, but how could anyone respect a smooth-faced magus?"

Races: Human, Winged, Lamia, Orc, Skeleton, Ghost
RT: 25 Move: 3 Jump: 1/2
Weapons: Daggers*, Hammers**, Cudgels,
Armor: Light
Magic: Air, Earth, Lightning, Water, Fire, Ice, Dark
Missile, Indirect, Status, Drain
Support: Fortify II, Spellcraft IV, Resistance IV, Truestrike III, Trueflight III, Spellstrike IV, Dodge III, Sidestep III, Spell Ward IV, Constitution III, Insight IV, Expand Mind IV, Channeling IV
Other: Reflect Damage II, Absorb MP II
Action: Meditate, Conserve RT, Engulf
Special: N/A

*Sticker, Baldur, and Damasc only
**Caldia only


The Wizard/Enchantress is your first dedicated elemental spellcaster, and for most of the game the only one whose classmarks you can obtain without wanting to die. The damage spells are not really exceptional until later, when you get higher ranks of Spellcraft and access to elemental augmenting stuff. Thankfully, until that happens wizards can fling statuses on allies and enemies. As the enemy regularly disregards Spell Ward, you can often get 100% hit rates, and swing the flow of battle in your favor pretty easily. A well placed Balmy Breeze or Petrifog can take out 3 enemies at once, and a good Stormspark or Petriburst can make that dragon at which you are chipping away not use Toxic Breath. When the damage starts to pick up, well...

The Wizard is outclassed by several other classes. And I don't mean the way the Warrior is, where other classes fill the niche. I mean, these classes literally do everything the Wizard does and more. Witches have the same spells the Wizard do, but they get spellbooks, Light's missile and indirect spells, and Draconic magic. Necromancers have even less RT than the Wizard, and have Necromancy (obviously). Liches may have slightly more RT, but have hella INT and even more elemental magic. And spellbooks. And Necromancy and some Draconic. That's just generic classes. Warren's Astromancer, for one, makes Wizards look like goddamn punks.

: Lanselot, hey, Lanselot.

: What's up, War-man?

: Look at that punk. He thinks he's a mage, but he can't even cast Abyss.

: Did the jester pillage a wardrobe for fun or do you seriously think you're a mage?

: My mom thinks I'm cool. :saddowns:

Conserve RT sounds neat... until you notice it costs 16 RT itself. Engulf makes status spells hit farther, but those both take 1) a lot of RT the Wizard doesn't accumulate too quick 2) RT and Actions better spent on Meditate. At rank 1, Meditate enables casting a I missile or a 20 MP status spell every turn. At higher ranks, you're dropping summons and II and III indirects and coming out ahead. Sounds like that'd be an edge but... pretty much every other dedicated elemental spellcaster gets Meditate. Witches, Necromancers, Liches, Warren's Astromancer, all get Meditate as well. They really don't get anything to themselves.

I mean, Wizard's worth it in the early game, before the other spellcasters have availability, but if a Magus Mark drops then whoooops Wizard's completely worthless now. It's only good for getting other guys Meditate at that point. Quite a shame, really.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Neurion posted:

Meditate is hands-down the skill I use the most. It gains experience slowly, but with how often you can and will be using it in battle it shouldn't make much difference. Some +1 mage equipments will boost the rank of Meditate while equipped, too, allowing you to recover even more MP for magical casting funtimes.

Wizard Hats +1 give 2 ranks to Meditate on top of 12 INT and 10 MIND. I've never not had everyone capable of wearing one have one perched prettily atop their heads. It also gives silenceproof but ahahaha Silent Light hitting anyway.

Theoretically a rank 12 Meditate would give 60 MP a turn but that would involve Meditate ranking up.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Oz you cheating fucker Knight Commander can't equip Nomad Bracers :argh:

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


This is apropos of something.

Cleric


"Sempai isn't my braid so beautiful!? Can I be back in the team? ...Sempai?"

Races: Human, Winged
RT: 24 Move: 3 Jump: 1/2
Weapons: Cudgels, Caldia, Lobber
Armor: Light
Magic: Divine
Heal, Debuff removal, Dispel, Ease, Boon of Swiftness, Exorcism, Major Heal, Resurrection
Support: Fortify II, Spellcraft IV, Resistance IV, Truestrike III, Trueflight III, Spellstrike IV, Dodge III, Sidestep III, Spell Ward IV, Constitution III, Insight IV, Expand Mind IV, Channeling IV,
Other: Sanctuary II, Reflect Damage II, Absorb MP II*
Action: Mother's Blessing, Mother's Mercy
Special:

*must be learned in another class

I think this is accurate. I stopped using a Cleric in chapter 2 and am mostly going by what I saw NPCs using.

Revealing that I stopped using clerics segues well into what I think. Unlike Warrior and Wizard which are technically competent, just outclassed, Clerics have a specific, narrow niche. They recover HP with Heal and Major Heal and remove status ailments. The problem is this niche is successfully replicated by the Field Alchemy skill. Mend Leaves and Mending Seeds out-perform Heal on HP recovery and the status recovery items don't need MP and actually have 2-panel range. It's also not unique in that a Valkyrie gets Heal and Ease while also doing Other Things. Knights get Heal and can use items. Then you get to special classes.

So what does the Cleric have to itself? Major Heal is AoE healing, having actual HP recovery above Quench and a huge area for II and III. Resurrection is nice if you like to not use consumables but it costs 100 loving MP. The big thing here is Exorcism.

Cleric is one of three classes to get Exorcism, besides Catiua's Priest and another special class we haven't seen yet. Exorcism is what makes undead bearable before elemental weapons, and still useful afterwards. So is this what redeems the Cleric? No, not really. Necromancy has a similar spell in Banish, and the Draconic spell Starfall exorcises undead. Though these require reagents, they're still spells not in Divine usable by noncleric classes. Also, Exorcism costs 34 MP.

I mention MP costs because the Cleric doesn't have any way besides Expand Mind and Channeling to stretch its natural MP gain. No Meditate, no Conserve MP, no Malitza's Staff, nothing. They have horrible Mind Leaf addictions and demanding consumables to achieve basic functionality is a bad thing. So you've got to pick between healing and exorcising, and when your support class can't support, well, I believe you've got problems.

Really, the Cleric's problem is that they can't contribute offensively. The closest they get is Boon of Swiftness which, while awesome, is 1) a bad thing to have an entire character dedicated towards doing 2) Valkyries get it too. You've got a generic class that can support even better and also has swords. Then you have several special classes. White Knights get Heal and status recovery spells, but they're in heavy arms and armor and have loving Velocity Shift, for one.

Early game, sure, they're passable, when Heal's 40 HP recover is more than enemies deal, and the chapter 1 Nybeth battle needs some Exorcism. The only other place they could be useful is some battles in some Chapter 3s where there's a lot of undead and Heal and Exorcism as offense can shine. By the time you get to the optional dungeons and their piles of zombies, you've got better ways to deal with them and classes that literally replicate what they do but have Other Things.

Also Grimoires Exorcisme cost 800 goth so it's not that hard to stock up on a few and have anyone capable of making a ghost go away in a pinch.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Helmet 10 Warehouse posted:

I sat down to work on the next update only to remember that the next fight is one of those choose which side you want to attack form battles. :siren:So I need all of you to pick a side, left or right.:siren:


Picture for reference.

Ah yes, Denam's practiced "run straight at the enemy castle's gates head-on" stratagem I mentioned. :allears:

Right because, looking at the wheel of fortune, I did left in my Chaos run and apparently I didn't like it, as neutral went right again.

Tithin Melias posted:

I must have been weird as gently caress then, I used two or three at all times. My offensive line was a wall of meat, two clerics and two archers.

Having a healer on hand isn't a bad thing, mind, and it'd make sense coming from other games to assume the dedicated healer class would be useful. The game, in the one time I've ever seen it directly give gameplay advice, says "keep one in every battle party" as well.

It's not too obvious its main functions are handled elsewhere easily, and it being the only blue circle for Exorcism you have in chapter 3 certainly is tempting.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received




So I forgot some skills on the Warrior and Archer - actions that grant 100% accuracy to nearby allies for melee/ranged attacks, respectively.

They are, however, utter garbage and don't really change anything. Warrior's still outclassed, Archer is still Combat King.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Prowler posted:

Oh ninja, I would never quit you.

I tended to spread my buffs out over all of my powerhouses, but I wonder how much havoc a high elemental skilled, element touched, attack boosted, elemental weapon, status touched ninja could wreak.

I do this with Hobyrim and it's along the lines of 300 damage each swing.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Staticpulse posted:

According to the skill descriptions for weapon types, they add to accuracy.

So yeah when you hit about rank 3 or 4 then truestrike/flight become irrelevant in all but the most fringe situations, and using skills for fringe situations is what we call a waste.

Hell I had a character switch weapon types (daggers are much better than swords for Ice fyi) when I was rear end-deep in post-game and only rarely was her accuracy not 100% before she got any ranks.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Someone tell me to care enough about LUCT to post the Valkyrie write-up because the Valkyrie's really interesting but I just don't feel like even touching my PSP ever again.

loving Daedalus Racks.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Neurion posted:

Some annoying endgame/post-game BS.

That sums up everything I've done in LUCT for the past forever and ever.

Rune Fencer/Valkyrie


"The wings bring the whole thing together, you know. Ain't they spiffy?"

Races: Human, Winged, Orc
RT: 26 Move: 4 Jump: 2/3 Swim
Weapons: 1h Swords, Spears, Caldia, 1h bows, 1h crossbows, thrown, lobber
Armor: Heavy
Magic: Air, Earth, Lightning, Water, Fire, Ice, Divine, Dark
Missile, Summon, Instill, Silent Light, Boon of Swiftness, Dispel, Ease, Heal
Support: Rampart Aura II*, Counterattack III, Knockback III, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Spellcraft IV, Resistance IV, Truestrike IV, Trueflight III, Spellstrike IV, Dodge IV, Sidestep III, Spell Ward IV, Constitution IV, Insight III, Expand Mind III, Channeling III,
Other: Parry, Deflect, Wade II
Action: Conserve MP, HP Infusion, MP Infusion, Barricade
Special: N/A

*doesn't learn by itself

Every class can be broken down into one of 3 overarching roles. Physical units, who establish the front line and deal damage with weapons, offensive casters who use magic to damage and debuff enemies, and support casters who heal and buff allies.



Something like that I can't draw okay we're not scrutinizing the exact pixels each class inhabits we're discussing classes in broad terms.

The first four classes are pure versions of these roles, with Warrior and Archer being different sides of Physical, and the Valkyrie sits in the middle, performing all 3 jobs at once, wielding heavy weapons, casting healing spells, and flinging a spiritsurge for good measure.



At least, that's the idea. In reality, the Valkyrie's physical prowess and its support magic have much bigger effects than its offensive magic.



And its exact position wavers violently depending on where you are in the game and what stuff to which you have access. The Valkyrie is a class whose exact utility and role for the party changes quite radically - and get this, it's never quite bad.

At the rear end-beginning, it's a frailer knight, but that quickly changes when it gets its hands on instill spells and Boon of Swiftness. Instill spells pretty much slap a free 25% damage on physical attacks and is the single best buff in the game for increasing your physical dudes' damage output, and Boon of Swiftness is More Turns In A Turn-Based Game. Then they enter an awkward phase where they have trouble quite keeping up with the purer physical units and their magic damage is as junk as everyone else, leaving them as almost pure support. Still not as bad as Cleric because a Baldur Sword +1 up someone's rear end is a Baldur Sword +1 up someone's rear end, and Instill spells are that gooooood. The things that utterly revitalize them are as follows:

Dispel/Ease: Now they're as good as Clerics at healing statuses, in addition to their other things!

Elemental weapons: Their physical damage picks back up, especially as Light murderizes undead and Valkyries favor light as their element - there's even a light spear!

Summons: The Big One, Summons are weird indirect spells that deal 2 to 4 hits, each slightly weaker than the basic indirect spell. Only slightly, and since they hit multiple times they end up better for single-target damage than pretty much everything else in the game. Right when we're hitting a billion augment element ranks and higher ranks of spellcraft!

It's only about then do they really live up to being the do-everything class, because then they do everything. And they're helped by two of the best Action skills in the game.

Conserve MP is 30 TP for making spells cost 0 MP, which is 1-to-1 with Boon of Swiftness and a discount for Heal III, Summons, etc. And TP is far easier to accumulate than MP, given a spear in someone's gut can net 50 or more. It enables near-constant streams of summons. The other one is HP Infusion, and is probably the best ever. It's 1-to-1 TP to HP, and if that doesn't inspire glee I don't know what to tell you. We're talking surviving a half-dozen attacks and coming out without a scratch. Nigh invulnerability. Effective immortality.

Still, though, Valkyries do suffer from a lot of not-as-good-as. Dedicated physical units can deal and take facepunches better. The few other mages blessed enough to get summons drastically out-damage the Valkyrie's, and their support is limited to instilling or quicken or single-target healing. It's understanding that versatility comes at a price of effectiveness, and that they have loving radical action skills that convert TP to much more important Ps.

Also, about Divine Magic: it just has more things. In addition to Missile, Instill, and Summon, it's got Heal and Ease and such. Even if your Valkyrie isn't light-focused, she should still have Divine Magic just to have access to Boon of Swiftness and Heal.

Just don't expect them to post the highest numbers and you'll be rewarded with a class that's never quite useless.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received




Denam's expression has been stoic through everything that's befallen him. The massacre, Vyce's betrayal, Catiua going to the Dark Knights, he's kept his face straight.

For the first time, we see Denam overcome with emotion. The only loss he can't handle is the loss of family.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Knight


"Sir Swordnboard McMullet, reporting for duty!"

Races: Human, Skeleton
RT:36 Move: 4 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: 1h Swords, 1h axes, Hammers, 1h Crossbows, Lobber
Armor: Heavy
Magic: Divine
Heal, Instill, Hearten
Support: Rampart Aura IV, Counterattack III, Knockback III, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Resistance II, Truestrike IV, Trueflight III, Spellstrike II (why), Dodge IV, Sidestep III, Spell Ward II, Constitution IV, Inisight II, Expand Mind II, Channeling II, Tactician II
Other: Parry, Deflect, Overpower, Sanctuary, Absorb MP II
Action: Guardian Force, Sanctuary Shadow, Phalanx, Rampart Shadow
Special:

Remember my little triangle graph of roles? Put something real close to physical but have it edge a bit towards Support. That's Knight. They're less capable of hitting people in their faces than Warriors, but make up for it by having really tough faces. They equip the best gear for raw defense and have high HP, Vitality, and Resistance growths. Throw in the ability to heal and use Instill Light, and I bet you're just waiting for me to get to the weaknesses aren't you.

Well, first off, there's the ol' tactical RPG problem of the player being on the offensive. Battles start with your guys in their little 3x4 box that Deman must think is downright erotic, and the enemies spread out all over the map. Despite superior numbers, the enemy can't concentrate on a single spot like you can. So instead of it being 12 vs. 16 it's 12 vs. 4 four times. When the enemy uses a Knight to command a chokepoint, it allows its scattered troops to converge and beat you down through attrition. It goes back to action economy. By staying on the offensive, you prevent the enemy's forces from effectively acting their number.

Second, Knights have really high RT which is exacerbated by heavy equipment. Knights have a real problem getting turns. Their turns aren't all that valuable, either. Their offense is the attack command with a single weapon and their support is bare-bones.

Phalanx is a drat sexy ability, reducing damage to 1/10th, but the AI notices it and will target around it. If you can set it up so that the Knight's the only target, the enemy will still act on its fetish of doing things and crash itself like waves on a rock - with damage to match. Sure, this often results in the knight getting double-turned, but they'll usually just crash on it again, filling TP back up to Phalanx again. At level 3 and 4, Rampart Aura starts poking out diagonally, with all the utter madness that implies.

Like Wizards and Warriors, the Knight gets outdone by special jobs. White Knight pretty much bills itself as a superior Knight and while it lacks Phalanx, Velocity Shift is so grossly absurd that it doesn't much matter. There's a few others I'd love to discuss because they make my pants tighter if you know what I mean, but, spoilers.

Early on they're perfectly functional but kind of interchangeable with Valkyries, but while Valkyries go into an awkward phase where they get Boon of Swiftness but can't really do much damage, Knights keep chugging along like before. It's when special classes show up and elemental weapons make battles a hell of a lot more lethal that the Knight really loses its luster.

The enemy using Phalanx will forever be the ultimate pain in the rear end, though.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


waah posted:

Don't wanna step on toes, so I am gonna ask. Helmet10 and OFS, you mind if I take a crack at a couple of the non human classes, patriarch, hoplites, juggernaut etc? Obviously I would have to stay within the LP (and now that I think of it it don't think you have any of these classes so moot point I guess).

I don't have much experience outside of human classes except Vartan and Patriarch so knock yourself out.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Bluh okay if my brother weren't playing LUCT right now I'd post more about a class. Should I cover the White Knight, given we have the classes to which to compare it, or Terror Knight, given it's the next generic on the list?

Necromancers are fuckin' fast, so fast you can tank with Drain Heart and Meditate. At least, if the undead aren't around to be immune to darkness. I put wind magic on Cressy so she'd have something to do at the undead, even if the deadshot is kinda wimpy.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Bregor posted:

Lament of the Dead is a real nice ability but holy poo poo are the units slow.

Just slap a silly doodle and that's the summary.

E: You know what here you go.

"In the Tortoise and the Hare, I'm the snail. With a sprain. Boo!"

Orange Fluffy Sheep fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Sep 19, 2014

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Votin' 1. Princess or no Princess she's Catuia dammit, and she and Denam only have each other for family left!


Drakenel posted:

...Though that's probably the law answer and I'm a sucker for the law path. :v:

We're past Law/Chaos, actually. All versions of chapter 3 lead to this chapter 4, the differences being which sidequest setups we have and different unique characters. Law wouldn't have Cerya and Cistina here to talk to Sherri, but it would have other conversations in later battles. A sidequest for a unique dragon-focused beast tamer is only in Law, because the other important character, the unique Dragoon, is only in that path.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


White Knight

"Sorry, ma'am. Fiery steed costs extra."

Characters: Myrdin, Gildas, Two Law-Only Special Characters
RE: 34 Move: 4 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: Fists, 1h Swords, 2h Swords, 1h Axes, Spears, Hammers, Damasc Mace, 1h Crossbows, Lobber
Armor: Heavy
Magic: Divine
Awaken, Innervate, Singing Light, Awaken Stone, Cleanse, Hearten, Heal
Support: Rampart Aura IV, Counterattack IV, Knockback III, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Resistance IV, Truestrike IV, Dodge IV, Sidestep III, Constitution IV, Insight II, Expand Mind II, Channeling II
Other: Parry, Deflect
Action: Paralysis Blade, Velocity Shift, Guardian Force, Sanctuary Shadow, Rampart Shadow

Our first special class is the one that's generally given to players first and I'm fairly certain of that. It's available on all three routes along with its classmarks, in chapter 3, as part of the story. Compared to the poo poo some special classes make you go through they're polite as hell.

The 34 RT seems high but the smallest RT bonus any of the candidates have is -9 so it ends up alright. Besides that it does look like what it purports to be, an improved Knight, but it plays kinda different. They don't have the Action or Special abilities that other frontline classes have to mitigate damage, nor do they have the damage output to achieve safety via murder.

They're more like, support units who can exist on the frontline perfectly fine. A Cleric in heavy armor, if that helps conceptualize it. They handle this hybrid role by being slightly less potent clerics that can wield swords and such and still deal perfectly respectable damage, and most importantly, they have Velocity Shift.

Oh my god, Velocity Shift.

Okay, so it costs all the White Knight's TP to use and it reduces adjecent allies RT by the amount spent. Basically, the White Knight gives allies free turns, and considering TP is easy as hell for a competent frontliner to get it means your White Knight, when not busy cracking skulls or patching up allied skulls, can be a turn battery. Or have them be a turn battery primarily and do the rest when eh, they don't quite have the TP yet. In a turn-based game, extra turns generally mean you're winning.

Besides that, Paralysis Blade is pretty fun on a class with Counterattack IV, since inflicting stun without spending turns to do so ain't that bad of a plan, and stun prevents counterattacks which can help damage races. Their status-healing magic isn't as robust as the clerics, but it handles the worst of the common ones with awaken, awaken stone, and cleanse.

Just loving use Velocity Shift and revel in your knight increasing the number of turns you get. It's not complicated.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Berserker


"DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT IS TO FIND SHIRTS IN MY SIZE?!"

Races: Human, Lizardman, Orc
RT: 34 Move: 4 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: Fists, Daggers, Axes, Hammers,
Support: Rampart Aura II*, Counterattack IV, Knockback IV, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV*, Resistance II, Truestrike IV, Trueflight III, Dodge IV, Sidestep III, Spellward II, Constitution IV
Other: Parry, Deflect, Overpower Wade II, Siege
Action: Berserk, Sanguine Assault, Risk Management
Special: N/A

Use, but can't learn. Why they can't learn Fortify IV themselves is beyond me.

So I'll be frank, I tried to use a berserker in my latest playthrough but he pretty frequently underperformed and he got replaced. Shame as I did it several levels within Sanguine Assault.

If Knights are to be high defense, low offense frontliners, then Berserkers are the opposite. They don't take lumps to well but they dish lumps out effectively. In theory. Without their action abilities they don't dish out lumps particularly more effectively than any other frontliner.

Risk Management is garbage, let's just get that out of the way. It doesn't reduce the damage taken, so whoever is getting the damage is getting Berserker-defense-based damage, and the Berserker is on the high end of HP, and either way it's spending TP to not get TP when the Berserker really wants TP. Berserk causes the Berserker (I am tired of typing 'er' already) to hit the five tiles to his/her front and sides, which is situational, since it has friendly fire and a surrounded Berserker is probably being maimed, but it can hit multiple enemies at once. Sanguine Assault increases the Berserker's Strength by 50% for a hit. To give an example, that's jumping over 20 levels worth of Strength. When 20 points are all that separates the Berserker from the Wizard, you're starting at around +50 at level 14 and going up.

I mean, I've never really used it but I imagine that having the key stat suddenly being at postgame levels would really hurt! And some rudimentary research indicates it'd pierce the defenses of monsters like golems and dragons through sheer musculature. Someone give me a trip report on Sanguine Assault, because my lack of experience with it is what's holding me from giving a fair assessment of the Berserker. They pick it up right as I was feeling underwhelmed with one for gently caress's sake.

Besides that, they really want a Valkyrie as a pal because they get hurt really easily, they're a fairly high base-RT class using action abilities and demand Boon of Swiftness, and of course Instill spells are always helpful for a physical attacker. Make sure they don't bite it and (presumably) Sanguine Assault should be a perfectly viable action.

You know, assuming the Ninja hasn't just butchered the battlefield by the time they get there. Hoo boy that's going to be a fun assessment.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Glazius posted:

Have the sisters got some kind of combo attack, or are they all just good units?

They're good units with excellent base RT (-9 for Cistina and Cerya, -10 for Sherri and Olyvia), high stats (look at Sherri's 44 int and 38 mind holy poo poo), and they share a powerful special magic class.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Swordmaster


"Looking halfway between Obi-Wan Kenobi and a hobo is the point, mom! Did you order my practical elite katana yet?"

Races: Human
RT: 26 Move: 4 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: 2h Katanas, Lobbers
Armor: Medium
Magic: War Dances
Support: Counterattack II, Knockback IV, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Resistance II, Truestrike IV, Trueflight III, Spellstrike IV, Dodge IV, Sidestep III, Spell Ward IV, Constitution IV
Other: Parry, Deflect, Overpower, Wade II, Siege
Action: Preempt, Mighty Strike, Mind's Eye
Special: N/A

I should just say this class sucks because it isn't that good at first glance and takes some out-of-the-box thinking to derive its niche, and it's Hobyrim's default class which may lead you to think Hobyrim isn't worth using, when in fact Hobyrim is busted as a Ninja due to his insane -12 RT and high base dexterity. Making people not use Hobyrim is a loving crime.

The Swordmaster is sort of mediocre in every stat but Dexterity, which is backwards as 2h Katanas respond more to strength. War Dances have some interesting spells like mass-strengthen, fortify, and slow, HP recovery, and a TP drain, but they're cast from TP and without using action abilities the Swordmaster is a bad frontliner, so the class is sort of hard on its TP reserves.

Preempt is fun with knockback, as it can shove the enemy back before they even hit you. This sort of blinktanking via knockback is the aforementioned niche, but knockback isn't reliable, both in that it isn't 100% before IV and that terrain and the skill Steadfast can get in the way. It also doesn't really work on ranged attacks or magic. The magic isn't a big deal as the class gets full Spell Ward but it's only got default Sidestepping and enemies do occasionally use Tremendous Shot. Most enemies are melee though so who knows, you could just have Alec Guinness here keep shoving people that want to stab him backwards. When you get into places like the Palace of the Dead with a lot of bottomless pits, you can get sadistic with knockback. :twisted:

Mighty Strike is only 25% extra damage and it takes the same one action a turn as Preepmt. Mind's Eye is just flat avoids melee attacks until next turn which is at once more reliable than Preempt but it lacks the reversal of momentum that Preempt has.

This class is full of ifs and buts and is a horrible TP hog, but the situations in which it works seem like they might be worth it. If nothing else, it can do some unique things.

And they have a 2h katana that casts Petrifog which goes well with their high ranks in spellstrike, even if the weapon doesn't augment its own element.

Next time is the Dragoon, whose niche is "kills monsters loving dead".

I think I'm using male designs too much. 9 reviews and only 3 are women. My defense is that the dudes lend themselves to jokes better, but still.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Dragoon


"Oh, don't you know? I L:love:VE dragons! Especially when they're in chunks!"

Races: Human
RT: 28 Move: 4 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: 1h Swords, 2h Swords, Axes, Spears, Crossbows
Armor: Heavy
Magic: None
Support: Rampart Aura II* Counterattack IV, Knockback IV, Strengthen IV, Fortify III, Resistance II, Truestrike IV, Trueflight III, Dodge IV, Sidestep III, Spell Ward II, Constitution IV,
Other: Parry, Deflect, Overpower, Wade II, Steadfast, Siege*
Action: Dragonslayer, Dragon's Wound, Dragonsbane, Beastslayer, Beastbane
Special: N/A

*use, can't learn disclaimer blah blah

Dragoons are a physical attacker with a niche. The niche is making monsters die horribly and painfully and very quickly. Dragonslayer and Beastslayer apply some sort of horrifying multiplier to damage, going from "shaves off most of their HP" when the Dragoon is but a mewling child and "instagib" when they get rolling. They're actions, so the multiplier is applied to their regular attack, so they get TP from the murderbeam, often well in the hundreds. I've had entire battles about my Dragoon chaining kill to kill while the rest of the team set up his shots.

Outside of beast murder, they're a perfectly decent frontliner, albiet without any tricks. Their sheer utility in laying waste to unnecessarily tough monsters is worth a slot in your A-team.

Don't fall for using melee weapons on them. They can and should use crossbows for the range. Against monsters they can do kill chains really easily with a six-panel range. Not to mention, in battles light on monsters, they can just take pot shots to build to a finisher. Brimstone Hail hits an area really hard and I've never seen an enemy survive a Deathwail to the face.

So, yeah, a Dragoon with a crossbow is a fantastic addition to the team. Try it.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Ninja


"I am skilled in all three forms of ninjutsu: having more turns, more move, and more damage output."

Races: Human
RT: 22 Move: 5 Jump: 3/4
Weapons: Some Daggers, 1h Katanas, blowguns, 1h bows, 1h crossbows, some throwing weapons
Armor: Medium
Magic: Ninjutsu
Support: Counterattack II, Knockback II, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Spellcraft IV, Resistance II, Truestrike IV, Trueflight IV, Spellstrike IV, Dodge IV, Sidestep IV, Spell Ward IV, Constitution IV
Other: Double Attack, Parry, Deflect, Overpower, Swiftfoot II, Jump II, Wade II
Action: Evanescence, Concentration, Steelstance
Special: N/A

Ninja's fuckin' broke. RPGs keep giving ninjas high speed and it turns out having a lot of turns is good. They keep getting high movement ability and it turns out being able to get into position before everyone else and take extra routes is good. And for whatever reason they keep getting to swing two weapons and never get a meaningful drawback applied to this ability, so they just deal twice as much damage as everyone else, and it turns out that's good.

I mean I suppose they're frail. Ish. Not very particularly, but they get Steelstance to make up for it. By all objective measures Steelstance is a pretty bad skill, since it isn't that significant of a decrease in damage, but it's patching up the one weakness they may have had. It's not like killing endlessly with melee attacks doesn't fill up TP nigh instantly.

Ninjutsu is kind of bad. Ninjas don't have the intelligence to use low-rent summon spells adequately and besides that you're taking time to do that instead of murdering with two swords. It's a false flag. A smokescreen. A red herring. Assign double attack and thresh your foes as though they were wheat.

Do I have to explain that dealing 200% damage is good? No? Thanks. You made this easier. They do that and have other advantages and their drawbacks are covered by their advantages.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Huh, really? The only place I've seen the II ninjutsus is in enemy spell lists. I might give it a spin if I ever get out of the PoTD since Hobyrim already has over 4000 SP to spare.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Hunt11 posted:

So what determines the gear you find in shops? Is it the progression of the story or the highest character level?

Story progress, the presence of Deneb, or if the clerk is a skeleton or not.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Lord


"My stoic expression won't keep the hair out of my eyes by itself, you know."

Character: Deman
RT: 25 Move 4 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: Fists, Daggers, 1h Swords, 2h Swords, Axes, Spears, Hammers, 1h Katana, 2h Katana, Cudgels, Whips, Spellbooks, Blowguns, Bows, Crossbows, Thrown
Armor: Heavy
Magic: Air, Earth, Lightning, Water, Fire, Ice, Divine, Dark, Draconic
Everything. All of It. Missles to Summons to Major Heal II to Forbidden
Support: Rampart Aura IV, Counterattack IV, Knockback IV, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Spellcraft IV, Resistance IV, Truestrike IV, Trueflight IV, Spellstrike IV, Dodge IV, Sidestep IV, Spell Ward IV, Constitution IV, Insight IV, Expand Mind IV, Channeling IV
Other: Parry, Deflect, Overpower, Steadfast, Double Attack, Siege, Swiftfoot IV, Jump II, Wade II Reflect Damage II, Reflect Magic II, Absorb MP II
Action: First Aid, Tremendous Shot, Phalanx, Mighty Impact

If that looks like a list of everything to you, well it sort of is. I may have missed something just because there's so many things. All Lord's really missing is Necromancy, Ninjutsu, War Dances, and Fulsils.

Piece of poo poo game not letting me have a gunslinging necromancer grumble grumble...

Another note, Lord doesn't learn one goddamn thing by itself except First Aid, elemental attenuates, and status-proofs. You have to hunt down everything else. You get five marks so you don't really have to hold off.

Anyway though it looks like Denny can do anything in this class, reality is never so simple. Lord's stats are naturally slightly skewed towards physical attacks, and his heavy armor and lack of Meditate hit his spellcasting more. God what I wouldn't do for a Wizard Hat +1 on his head. Still, he's about as good as a Valkyrie in INT/MNDwise, his spell list includes everything in the available schools, and he has full access to spellcraft and spellstrike so it's not anywhere near bad. If nothing else, Divine Magic gives you the sort of frontline cleric you wish White Knights were with full access to Boon of Swiftness, Exorcism, Instill Light, and Major Heal, among others. He's also got full Draconic privileges for Starfall and its weird support spells like Springboard. For the stuff that doesn't rely on magic like Heal and Exorcism, he is fully capable and makes other frontliners with utility spells look like one-trick ponies.

The obvious attraction here is the physical. Double Attack is as hosed up here as it is on Ninjas, if not more so due to Denny's amazing weapon selection (though I have him use 1h katanas anyway (he had a billion ranks and the katanas have augment light)). He's got Tremendous Shot and Mighty Impact if single weapons are your cup of tea, and Phalanx is perhaps more useful here due than on Knights to the lower RT. First Aid is a full HP restore to an adjacent ally, but Divine Magic and Field Alchemy can handle HP restoration and other things.

The hidden potential of the Lord is in what odd combinations exist only here and nowhere else. Rampart Aura and Spell Ward both at IV, Wisplight and Exorcism in the same spell list, Phalanx with a bow, Swiftfoot II and Petrifog, and many more. The only possible weakness of the class is that you only get 10 skill slots so it's hard to really embrace his versatility, but that's a weakness of the player rather than the Lord. Let Denny carve his own niche simply because no one else can really claim being able to do anything and everything. In that sense, he's sort of like a Valkyrie+1, and considering Valkyries are already one of the best classes...

Orange Fluffy Sheep fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Feb 10, 2015

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Oh good wikis for everything strike again and someone else compiled all these skills for me.

Rogue


"Pro-tier Asspuncher Club! Represent!"

Race: Human, Faerie, Imp
RT:23 Move:4 Jump:2/3
Weapons: Fists, Daggers, Blowguns, 1h Bows, Crossbows, Thrown
Armor: Light
Support: Counterattack III, Knockback III, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Resistance IV, Truestrike IV, Trueflight IV, Dodge IV, Sidestep IV, Spell Ward IV, Constitution III
Other: Steadfast, Parry, Deflect, Overpower, Treasure Hunt II, Reflect Damage II*, Reflect Magic II*
Special: Sneak Attack, Speedstar
Action: Steal, Sparagmos, Booby Trap, Disarm, Selfish Kiss*1, Coquettish Kiss*2, Agonal Scream*, Lingering Kiss*

*use but can't learn
1stun/silence/petrify version
2poison/envenom version

Whew, okay, this class is far heavier on specials and actions that other classes and that's a big reason for their utility. The kisses and Agonal scream are Familiar skills so only faerie and imp rogues have access to 'em.

So the Rogue is your thief-class for this game that should never be stealing. Steal is nigh useless- its hit rate is abysmal and it takes eons to level up. A guy has been using it from release to today and his withered miserable husk announced he had finally reached level 3. Most of all, everything you could steal is a drop as well. Your archer would be better at getting items via pinpoint assassinations. Booby Trap and Disarm are equally as useless.

So you have Sneak Attack, which massively boosts melee damage to enemy asses. So get a good fist or knife and obliterate enemy asses. It's a big multiplier and as a special you still get TP on the hit, so love it. Speedstar inflicts Quickness on the user, and it is excessively good as this already fast class can Boon of Swiftness themselves for you!! Sparagmos deals slashing air damage in a 2-panel radius and it's actually ridiculously hefty damage for a generic human class's action skill. There are even Augment Air fists and knives, even if they are total pains to obtain. Sparagmos doesn't really need it to hit hard anyway. Between those three skills a Rogue is a TP hog but they pick up Tactician II for you so it's all fine. Just destroy enemy asses, air slash enemy asses, and speed up ones own rear end.

On the Familiar skills that are worth a poo poo, Agonal Scream is a fear ability and those are always nice. Lingering Kiss deals damage and drains HP and resets RT, but it's dark and undead null that, and you'd have to get a Familiar to postgame levels to have both. IIRC faeries are as competent as humans when in the class for whatever it's worth.

They're a bit fragile statistically, and don't have anything to save their own asses from obliteration. Still, their advantages well outweigh that. Sneak Attack, Speedstar, and Sparagmos. The three S's of Rogue competency. Try 'em out. They're surprisingly good.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


victrix posted:

Crafting feels like the first draft of a new gameplay mechanic.

But it's not like it'll ever get patched, so patch it yourself :v:

The three changes it desperately needs are the removal of failure chances, and the ability to mass-produce, and getting rid of the loving animation.

I've made Wootz Steel. I know the flaws of crafting. They're carved into my soul.

Anything else? Some way to make low level classes catch up faster, something with the complicated-rear end system of flags for extra dungeons or at least not tying so much equipment to books dropped in byzantine circumstances in extra dungeons... and why the gently caress is all the good gear except for robes and chokers dropped in byzantine circumstances in the Palace of the Dead?

Basically make crafting not suck and make crafting matter more than your caster's augment element ranks so that the Palace of the Dead is an endurance marathon and not pausing every floor for ten to ten thousand minutes getting important drops.

loving Daedalus Racks man.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


RareAcumen posted:

Getting new classes could do with being easier too, I prefer the Final Fantasy Tactics method of 'You know enough skills in this class to use this class' system.

What's wrong with having to kill one specific Necromancer in one obscure branch of a bonus dungeon but only if you met the obscure recruitment requirements for the unique Necromancer and have her in the team?

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


waah posted:

Catuia catches a bad rap because 16 bit sprites can't really convey war atrocities and ethnic cleansing. Through the lens of everyone else she loves being massacred, most likely in front of her very eyes, it makes sense that she is overly clingy.

Not clingy enough to actually join Denny's wacky crew, mind.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received



Revisit stages you'd have no reason to revisit and go to towns you have even less reason to look at to get a key item; repeat over a dozen times.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Beast Tamer



"I got this skull at wholesale, actually. It... kinda says dragons don't survive my taming, doesn't it?"

Race: Human
RT: 30 Move 4 Jump: 2/3
Weapons: Fists, Axes, Hammers, Cudgels* Whips, Blowguns1, 1h Bows, Thrown
Armor: Light
Support: Counterattack III, Knockback IV, Strengthen IV, Fortify IV, Resistance II, Truestrike IV, Trueflight III, Dodge IV, Sidesep III, Spell Ward II, Constitution IV
Other: Steadfast, Parry, Deflect, Overpower, Wade II, Reflect Magic II1
Special: N/A
Action: Empower Beast, Empower Dragon, Repel Beast, Repel Dragon.

*I have no idea why they let random folks have the Baldur and Damasc Maces.
1Use, but can't learn.


Beast Tamers are bad.

Theoretically their point are beasts and dragons. They aren't particularly good at Subdue or Tame and the Empowers are not worth a unit who is below average in stats and high on RT. Monster units fall off as they lack elemental weapons and can't stack more than one augment element rank, and thus a support unit for them also is bad. The support for your monsters invariably having much higher RT than the monsters is bad. Beast Tamers have oddly high Mind, but no way to use really it. Besides that and their Strength, their stats range from disappointing to sad, especially Dexterity, as it limits their ability to build TP with ranged attacks. 30 RT is a lot for a class with an easy-to-punch face and no big tricks.

I suppose a Breath II backed by Empower Dragon would hurt a fair bit, but by that point you're dedicating two units to doing what one could. Would Empower Beast affect a Cyclops's summon magic? It wouldn't change things at all since the actually good summoners can circumvent MP costs in some way and summon more.

The only real point to leveling them is so the two special Beast Tamers join with better equipment. They also start with rank 2 Subdue or Tame so you can take the only thing Beast Tamers give you, the ability to recruit 27 dragons, and put it in a good class.

Orange Fluffy Sheep fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Aug 17, 2015

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Mraagvpeine posted:

Are we close to the end of the game?

We are close to the end of the main storyline.

We are nowhere close to exhausting the disturbing amount of stuff there is to do in this game.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Warlock/Witch


"My elfin ears do hear... you're kinda low on wyrm gems. Could you pick some more up? ...Please?"

Race: Human, Ghost, Lamia
RT: 26 Move: 3 Jump: 2/3
Magic: Elemental*, Draconic
Missile, Indirect, nonlight utility, all Draconic
Weapons: The same generic daggers and hammers everyone gets, Cudgels, Spellbooks
Armor: Mage
Support: Fortify II, Spellcraft IV, Resistance IV, Truestrike III, Trueflight III, Spellstrike IV, Dodge III, Sidestep III, Spell Ward IV, Constitution III, Insight IV, Expand Mind IV, Channeling IV
Other: Absorb MP II, Reflect Damage II*
Special: Meditate*, Golem's Bane
Action: Control Golem, Empower Golem, Gordian Key

*use, but can't learn

Basically they're wizards with more options. They get the same access to elemental spells (though not the skills themselves, but you need to go get Meditate anyway soooooo) and on top of that they get golem gimmicks and the entire draconic library and spellbooks. And Spiritstrike and Judgment for some reason.

Spellbooks are really good, they give huge bonuses to INT and MND and they give +2 to Anatomy and its kin. Better than any staff until you get to elemental ones and Malitzas' Staves.

The golem stuff is weird but unlike Beast Masters, Witches get to be completely worthwhile units outside of their monster gimmick. Golems do include the rocky badasses that have been pissing us off recently, but also pumpkinheads, which gets really strange. But that's a lot of investment into this gimmick tbh. It does make exploding fun. I have no idea how Golem's Bane works but I assume it's like the beast/dragon ones i.e. not useful. Gordian Key is worthless though. Gordian Lock is really loving rare. I think you'd have to engineer situations to get hit with it.

Draconic Magic is very interesting for how obscure and rare it is. The Healcraft-granting spell is dropped 33 floors down the Palace of the Dead for gently caress's sake. It includes extremely powerful mobility spells Springboard and Teleport, Negate Spell and Nullify Strike which can save someone's rear end, revival at the cost of one's own life via Sacrifice, and the damage spells. These are expensive but powerful, and notably light-elemental Starfall can exorcise undead. All Draconic spells require Wyrm Gems, and though you can buy them you can only hold 99 at a time, which runs out quick when Starfall costs 3 gems a casting.

Witch and Lord are the only classes with full access to the Draconic spell list, which makes Witch an interesting proposition to be sure. None of the special magician jobs get the whole thing. But at the same time, it's a narrow and kinda limited niche, don't you think? It may be worth sticking with Wizard anyway, because even if they are outclassed you wouldn't have to re-level a class you've been using all along, you know?

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Hydra


I don't know what this is. But if it's in, if it's in, good.

Race: prefers the term "realist"
RT: measured in stellar scales Move: on the Jump: Mario-esque
Magic: died that day in 1997 when I saw Chuck 'e' Cheese take off his head to reveal he was a just guy in a suit
Weapons: just these guns *flexes, biceps droop down like cartoon*
Armor: 17 days left on 60-day free trial
Support: stilts
Other: preferable
Action: claims to be ready for some
Special: we are all in our own way

Let's be serious here you aren't using a loving hydra. You are not going through the effort of kidnapping one, raising the class from level one, and fielding it. You can excuse it for an elemental dragon because those at least look cool but most assuredly not a loving hydra.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received


Necromancer



"I know the Jason mask look is kinda ridiculous, but have you seen the face stocking the ladies use? Crazy."

Race: Human
RT: 22 Move: 3 Jump 1/2
Magic: Non-light elemental*, Necromancy
Weapons: generic daggers and Caldia, non-sacred cudgels
Armor: Mage
Support: Fortify II, Spellcraft IV, Resistance IV, Truestrike III, Trueflight III, Spellstrike IV, Dodge III, Sidestep III, Spell Ward IV, Constitution III, Insight IV, Expand Mind IV, Channeling IV
Other: Abosrb MP II, Reflect Damage II*
Special: Meditate*
Action: Animate Dead, Condemn, Consecrate Dead

*use, but can't learn*

Basically they're wizards with more options, again. They get the same access to nonlight spells and Meditate though they need to learn them from Wizard. They have a much better INT score than Wizard or Witch and a slightly lower RT of 22, which works with the low weight of wizard equipment to give them impressively tiny RT scores. They have the same equipment as wizards. Then they get their unique tricks.

They have a bunch of undead-related options via skills, including a way to still undead. They can revive allied undead at full HP, which is fun if you have one at the front so they never really break. Necromancy is the interesting thing here, and if you can actually put the pieces together it's interesting. You can zombify generics to make about anything an undead, not just skeletons/ghosts. They have another undead-stilling spell, a few extremely rare statuses including Bewitched off of Tainted Love, the ability to drain HP and recover MP, an AoE damage spell that damages living units and heals undead, and the ability to gtfo. Unfortunately summoning entire undead like Nybeth did is enemy-only. Those spells are really obscure, with a lot only for sale in the Palace of the Dead. They require reagents, which has the same sustainability question as Draconic magic, but thankfully they use a variety of reagents rather than just one for all their spells.

Another problem is the class's obscurity itself. You can recruit one in a late chapter II Law battle who is lacking the spells to really stand out or Meditate to keep up with your mages who actually have it, or snag Cressida. Cressida at least comes with some classmarks so you can get a nondark magic type so she can do anything to undead and Meditate so she's on par with the rest. The rest of your classmarks come form one necromancer in one floor of the PotD occasionally, so basically gently caress you.

Life Force (that HP-to-MP spell) and extra undead stilling are great. Base 22 RT and high INT (barely behind Liches and Matriarchs) are great. But there's a lot of hoops to jump through to get there, and if there's a lot of enemy zombies they're little more than wizards who can still undead. It may not be worth the work.

  • Locked thread