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xgalaxy
Jan 27, 2004
i write code

BabelFish posted:

The video is incredibly impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC5KtatMcUw

They're also releasing their online services for free.

I'm curious if they will continue using the same GitHub repository for Unreal Engine 5 or have a "hard break" and do all UE5 stuff in a different repo.
I think I'd prefer a hard break in the repo.

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al-azad
May 28, 2009





xzzy posted:

It's criminal do make a post like that and not mention team fortress 2.

I wanted to focus on stuff achievable by a single artist. You could do a college semester on TF2's art design and I'm sure someone has.

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008






Grimey Drawer

al-azad posted:


Use masks and vertex painting. This screenshot is literally two 32x32 textures, one for the wall and one for the floor. The mesh is then painted to give gradation to the texture. This is why Rare's N64 games looked better than everyone else.
I've posted some examples of this before but it really cannot be overstated what a big effect this has, and how widespread the use was.

Here's a scene from Banjo Kazooie as you see it in the game:

and here is the exact same scene, but without the vertex colors

(also notice the barnacles and such that helps break up the tiling)

There is zero realtime lighting, it's all painted through the vertex colors.

For a more recent example but still the exact same principle, here's a scene from The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword:

and again, the exact same scene but without the vertex colors

Shoehead
Sep 28, 2005

My cause is just...my will is strong...and my gun is very, very large!




If you really want art asset easy mode you should go for 2d pixel art. Those lazy bastards have it too easy

Corbeau
Sep 12, 2010

Jack of All Trades


It's been almost surreal the past few weeks of revising old code. I threw together a ton of jury-rigged stuff just so that I could test other stuff, but I'm now finding that one intelligent revision of an old clunker often solves multiple problems that I thought I'd have to tackle separately. It's almost like the code takes on forward momentum of it's own.

LordSaturn
Aug 12, 2007

sadly unfunny


my usual trick for getting myself to work on my game is "well I really want to add X feature to my implementation of Y class, even knowing that I won't actually use X feature at all because of the way I use Y class" and this always rolls into "I already had X feature, and forgot about it, also I've spent three hours building out the map generation code"

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

Alright, I spent all day working on per-weapon reticles, and this is where things stand:

https://i.imgur.com/6lEMGvf.mp4

The positions are a little off when you don't have a locked target, which is aggravating. Otherwise, yellow indicates that the gun can't fire, with a 🚫 if it's outside the gun's firing arcs, or else a radial-fill circle if it's reloading. White indicates that it can fire. I may end up adding some kind of "reticle is moving in this direction" indicator when it's actively traversing, but I'm not sure it's necessary since you can see it moving.

Too bad Twitter's video encoder would absolutely mangle the tiny reticles. I'd love to show this off; I think it's a big improvement.

jizzy sillage
Aug 13, 2006



Shoehead posted:

If you really want art asset easy mode you should go for 2d pixel art. Those lazy bastards have it too easy

lmao









Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008






Grimey Drawer

Shoehead posted:

If you really want art asset easy mode you should go for 2d pixel art. Those lazy bastards have it too easy
or

you could get the best* of both worlds by combining a 3D world with pixel art textures like we've discussed previously



* may or may not involve a crazy amount of work for what is an extremely niche aesthetic

Ranzear
Jul 25, 2013



Not even pixel art is safe from crazy pipeline and lighting ideas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUkY8ZoRfuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_A8qhTh-8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=786nDr2pglg

Ranzear fucked around with this message at 00:43 on May 14, 2020

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


why even light pixels if you're gonna go old school go hard as a motherfucker and the only lighting changes should be fed directly to the rgb mix

Omi no Kami
Feb 19, 2014




Your Computer posted:

may or may not involve a crazy amount of work for what is an extremely niche aesthetic[/super]

Man, that might be the most succinct summary of game art I've ever heard.

Are there any really crunchy technical walkthroughs of how the n64 used vertex painting/vertex masks? I've seen it brought up before and Banjo-Kazooie looked frigging rad-tacular, but I can't quite grok how they're getting those results. Is it just like multiplying textures in a shader, where you use the masks to blend/colorize a flat hue based on the height or topology of each vertex?

And I'm not a dummy for looking at one-artist workflows for handpainted stuff, right? I keep thinking I should be focusing on photorealism or straight-up retouched photos, since that's what yakuza and most of the other real-world-y games seem to rely heavily on, but every time I do a deep dive on textures.com and the other CC0 sites I always end up with a bunch of textures that are kinda-close but not really what I was looking for, and also need an absolute crapton of manual tweaking and calibrating to the point that I suspect a lower-res handpainted job would look way better in the long run.

Ranzear
Jul 25, 2013



The White Dragon posted:

why even light pixels if you're gonna go old school go hard as a motherfucker and the only lighting changes should be fed directly to the rgb mix

Let's just bring back color vector monitors.

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


well that's a negative extreme to take away from my position

i'm saying snes and ps1 games using desaturated blues for night looks way better than any per-pixel lighting system i ever saw. sometimes i feel like the obsession with replicating exacting light realism can be a detriment to a project, especially one that goes full retro except for the ultramodern vfx

The White Dragon fucked around with this message at 02:22 on May 14, 2020

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008






Grimey Drawer

Omi no Kami posted:

Are there any really crunchy technical walkthroughs of how the n64 used vertex painting/vertex masks? I've seen it brought up before and Banjo-Kazooie looked frigging rad-tacular, but I can't quite grok how they're getting those results. Is it just like multiplying textures in a shader, where you use the masks to blend/colorize a flat hue based on the height or topology of each vertex?
I've spent a bunch of time figuring that stuff out and have posted a bunch of stuff related to it if you don't mind digging through my posts I've also made a shader in Unity to replicate the techniques used, with support for vertex color, texture blending through vertex alpha, transparency through vertex alpha, the weird N64 3-point texture filtering, UV + frame animation and more. Haven't uploaded the updated shader anywhere yet though...

I really should do a proper write-up of all the things I've learned and old techniques I've rediscovered but I don't really have any place to post it and it's a lot of work. I suppose if there's interest I could compile a post with everything.

Lunatic Sledge
Jun 8, 2013

your new best friend


people being able to rate games without playing them makes it a real uphill battle to make money on kongregate

al-azad
May 28, 2009





Your Computer posted:

I've spent a bunch of time figuring that stuff out and have posted a bunch of stuff related to it if you don't mind digging through my posts I've also made a shader in Unity to replicate the techniques used, with support for vertex color, texture blending through vertex alpha, transparency through vertex alpha, the weird N64 3-point texture filtering, UV + frame animation and more. Haven't uploaded the updated shader anywhere yet though...

I really should do a proper write-up of all the things I've learned and old techniques I've rediscovered but I don't really have any place to post it and it's a lot of work. I suppose if there's interest I could compile a post with everything.

Make a Medium post and itíll make the rounds on Twitter by weirdos like me who get giddy at double digit tri counts.

Omi no Kami
Feb 19, 2014




al-azad posted:

Make a Medium post and itíll make the rounds on Twitter by weirdos like me who get giddy at double digit tri counts.

Yeah agree- medium, gamasutra, or one of those other odd dev holes populated by weirdos like us.

Fun tri fact: the N64 logo has 64 vertices and 64 faces.

Flannelette
Jan 16, 2010



BabelFish posted:

The video is incredibly impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC5KtatMcUw

They're also releasing their online services for free.

Oh cool all that work getting good at normal maps and baking lighting going in the trash then, just poo poo something out of Zbrush and it the engine does it for you, this is great and I'm not bitter. Just worried that even if the engine is able to do these things automatically the right way now doesn't mean the wrong way you would have done it was actually the better way for your game and you just didn't try because you had a easier way.

al-azad
May 28, 2009





Flannelette posted:

Oh cool all that work getting good at normal maps and baking lighting going in the trash then, just poo poo something out of Zbrush and it the engine does it for you, this is great and I'm not bitter. Just worried that even if the engine is able to do these things automatically the right way now doesn't mean the wrong way you would have done it was actually the better way for your game and you just didn't try because you had a easier way.

Iím going to have to find this long thread on Twitter by a dev that broke down everything but the gist of it is that itís still a tech demo and there are some noticeable issues in the pipeline like the lighting has a noticeable hard edge and takes a noticeable amount of frames to update. Itís certainly impressive but thereís still a poly budget, youíre not going to be dropping in your photogrammetry scans and call it a day.

Shoehead
Sep 28, 2005

My cause is just...my will is strong...and my gun is very, very large!





And it almost always makes the pixels look muddy and desaturated, like babbies first photoshop pixelart that's all various shades of black with hints of colour.

floofyscorp
Feb 12, 2007



Flannelette posted:

Oh cool all that work getting good at normal maps and baking lighting going in the trash then, just poo poo something out of Zbrush and it the engine does it for you, this is great and I'm not bitter. Just worried that even if the engine is able to do these things automatically the right way now doesn't mean the wrong way you would have done it was actually the better way for your game and you just didn't try because you had a easier way.

Even if it's really as simple as 'just drop your ZBrush sculpt into the game and call it done'(which I doubt, and would only work for static meshes and not for anything you have to rig and animate), I've been making games for over ten years and still haven't had the opportunity to use PBR, the last art revolution of five+ years ago, in a project. Outside of bleeding-edge AAA technology moves surprisingly slowly. Normal maps and light baking isn't going anywhere for the vast majority of us any time soon.

SweetBro
May 12, 2014

Did you read that sister?
Yes, truly a shitposter's post. I read it, Rem.


Yeah, as someone who went pretty balls deep into the whole 2DHD thing a while ago I basically came to the conclusion that "less is more". Anything that makes the actual texture less crisp will usually lead to undesired visual feedback.

Bert of the Forest
Apr 27, 2013

Shucks folks, I'm speechless. Hawf Hawf Hawf!

So I recently did something sort of strange, but hoping it helps get our team (or at least me) to have a more tangible vision of the game we want to make since we've all had a major hit in productivity as of late.

Basically, I made a beat-for-beat "storyboard" of what the opening day of our game looks like, complete with tutorialization and such, because at least to me knowing what I want to see right after I push start might give more meaning to the jumble of mechanics we've been implementing, since there's still a lot of groundwork to lay down for even the most basic assessment of what it feels like to play. Also because we've been needing to flesh out the starting premise and characters a little more, which this at least certainly does clarify.

In total it wound up being 62 images long just for the first in-game day, which is ridiculous to share all of, but I figured I'd share a trimmed down version for want of something to show:

The basic premise has you arriving at camp the day before it opens for the summer.

























The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


lmao i love that last panel

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008






Grimey Drawer

I think it's a great idea and I absolutely love it

When I was younger and didn't know any programming I would do a similar thing, just plot out a "session" of a game idea I had as kind of a comic strip. I had forgotten about it until I saw those images and now I'm thinking I should begin doing that again!

Shoehead
Sep 28, 2005

My cause is just...my will is strong...and my gun is very, very large!




That's cute as hell!

pyrotek
May 21, 2004




Bert of the Forest posted:

So I recently did something sort of strange, but hoping it helps get our team (or at least me) to have a more tangible vision of the game we want to make since we've all had a major hit in productivity as of late.

Basically, I made a beat-for-beat "storyboard" of what the opening day of our game looks like, complete with tutorialization and such, because at least to me knowing what I want to see right after I push start might give more meaning to the jumble of mechanics we've been implementing, since there's still a lot of groundwork to lay down for even the most basic assessment of what it feels like to play. Also because we've been needing to flesh out the starting premise and characters a little more, which this at least certainly does clarify.

In total it wound up being 62 images long just for the first in-game day, which is ridiculous to share all of, but I figured I'd share a trimmed down version for want of something to show:

The basic premise has you arriving at camp the day before it opens for the summer.







Please keep that art style for the game.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





Shoehead posted:

And it almost always makes the pixels look muddy and desaturated, like babbies first photoshop pixelart that's all various shades of black with hints of colour.

When doing pixel art it's very important to pick a good palette of limited colors that help you nail the exact lighting and shadow for your sprite to get a great sense of form, and then mangle it by slapping some procedural gradients on top.

al-azad
May 28, 2009





I will disagree and say that colored lights and sector shading seen in modern Doom and Quake releases is good. The real issue is to never use pure black shadows or white light if youíre not going for realism.

Bert of the Forest
Apr 27, 2013

Shucks folks, I'm speechless. Hawf Hawf Hawf!

Shoehead posted:

That's cute as hell!

The White Dragon posted:

lmao i love that last panel

Your Computer posted:

I think it's a great idea and I absolutely love it

Thanks y'all! Hoping it works as well on my teammates' morale, we'll see!

pyrotek posted:

Please keep that art style for the game.

Hate to disappoint but if it's the sketchy/one color style you're referring to, then yeah the real game definitely has more colors and detail, but still lives up to the cute factor in these if I do say so myself.



baby puzzle
Jun 3, 2011

I'll Sequence your Storm.

I am polishing up graphics and stuff on some new content. I think this is a lovely screenshot.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

Fail to notice your healthbar now, playtesters!

https://i.imgur.com/RqxNdwy.mp4

Elentor
Dec 14, 2004








BabelFish posted:

The video is incredibly impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC5KtatMcUw

They're also releasing their online services for free.

I'm coming out of the woodworks to say some words about that video, which yeah it's pretty impressive, but:

* All the interior models have extremely simple materials: They are either weathered, sand covered objects, or some variation of old bronze material with darkened cavities. These can be done... in a lot of ways. You can do, I dunno, mask the cavities in ZBrush and Vertex Paint them, or do the most basic Unwrapping of the material, or just do everything procedurally with some smart math and a triplanar shader.

They actually remind me of megascans metal presets, if I'm being honest. They are extremely basic.

What makes me worry is that these are the simplest materials you can make while still looking good for a casual observer. I'm having a hard time picturing a 33m polygon model with complex materials being simply exported out of Zbrush on a whim, or some complex sci-fi hard-surface objects that are not just PBR Metal textures.

* The demo uses an absurd amount of instancing. The moment the narrator talks about unlimited detail or something it almost sounded, beat-by-beat, an ad for that old cloud point engine, which I think was called Unlimited Detail. Every demo of that engine consisted of a few objects instanced ad nauseum, so that you could have gigantic scenes with a lot of detail that are... well, just that. Instances of a few objects that probably consume a lot of memory.

This technology has been out there for a long time even for normal, polygon-based engines. In fact, you can take some pretty complex objects in, say, Unity 4, like real heavy stuff and have an impressive poly-count that is beyond anything in any real game thanks to instancing. Nowhere close to the scale of Unreal 5 for sure, but still that has never been used to the extent that these demos use. I found some parts of this demo jarring, because there's so much repetition everywhere, and a lot of AAA games got really good at breaking patterns in complex scenes.

* If you take any game right now and just take it out of Zbrush as it is, the way they claim you can do, two things are gonna happen: The game sizes are gonna make however big games are right now seem like a joke, and no computer is gonna be able to run any of those games. I want to give you pause by making sure you understand that, 10 years ago, there were already PCs built with 64-128 gb DDR for the sole purpose of modeling things in Zbrush. Even now that's still not a reality for most end users.


So, if I were to take a guess, I'd say:



Flannelette posted:

Oh cool all that work getting good at normal maps and baking lighting going in the trash then, just poo poo something out of Zbrush and it the engine does it for you, this is great and I'm not bitter. Just worried that even if the engine is able to do these things automatically the right way now doesn't mean the wrong way you would have done it was actually the better way for your game and you just didn't try because you had a easier way.

I highly doubt the stuff you learned is disappearing. Yes, the gamedev industry is full of "grats your knowledge is now obsolete" moments but this seems more like one of those "look at all that is theoretically possible" demos that are not gonna reflect reality even at a AAA scale except for a few specific situations.

TLDR: I'm extremely suspicious of demos that are basically half a dozen models instanced ad nauseum. We've been through two decades of that never having any real application.

Elentor fucked around with this message at 12:27 on May 15, 2020

Elentor
Dec 14, 2004








For what is worth a lot of the technology shown is super impressive and the lighting is beautiful and everything is beautiful, I just had to be myself and make that post. I'm so sorry.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

My impression is that when they say "this statue was imported directly from ZBrush" what they mean is "the statue was imported directly into UE5, which then made a bunch of LODs of it and the people making the demo decided where the cutoff point was for those LODs in the actual shipped product". Of course for the demo they would choose settings that maximize prettiness because they don't care about file size. But the point is that the artist didn't have to muck around with decimating and making normal maps and so on, not that people will realistically be seeing multi-million-polygon ZBrush models in-game. As you note that's quite implausible given the amount of hardware ZBrush itself needs.

al-azad
May 28, 2009





this thread breaks down some of UE5 in greater detail.

Megazver
Jan 13, 2006


https://twitter.com/HenryHoffman/st...458880984567808

https://twitter.com/danielsantalla/...077583816065026

https://twitter.com/HenryHoffman/st...199659814215680

Does anyone know a good tutorial that will explain what this stuff means to a really dumb person (me)? I love this look and want to learn to do this.

al-azad
May 28, 2009





Megazver posted:

Does anyone know a good tutorial that will explain what this stuff means to a really dumb person (me)? I love this look and want to learn to do this.

If you know nothing about Unity's shader graph you'll have to go through multiple tutorials but the entire node setup has basically been described up front. And Shadergraph is a free package for Unity so you can start a fresh project, install it, and play around. This video will get you started and this video covers the first node described in the effect. Unity Learn is still free for a while and probably has a tutorial on every shader graph node.

Basically:

Vertex noise displacement: uses randomly generated noise to displace the vertices of a mesh (creates the wobble effect)
Albedo noise texture scrolling: overlays a noise pattern with a base color which animates in a specific direction (creates the dark splotch effect)
Modify the time: converts the timing of the animation from a float to an integer to get a choppier animation
Texture blending: blends the noise to create a smoother paint-like flow
Gradient edge mask: creates a gradient around the edge with color burn blending to add extra contrast and break up the perfectly mathematical outline of vector art.

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Shoehead
Sep 28, 2005

My cause is just...my will is strong...and my gun is very, very large!




I'm laying the groundwork for the real boss of dungeon 1

https://twitter.com/Shoehead_art/st...0999636993?s=20

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