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Kilson posted:Counterpoint: Sorilea I don't think we actually see any weak willed strong channelers though. So it's more like: Strong Channeling -> Strong Will but not Strong Will -> Strong Channeling Which seems to me like it'd make any high level channelers debating being a bad case of "No U"
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Jan 18, 2014 10:55
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Well, yeah... saying "strong will (a diplomatic way of saying 'behaves like a dick to other people') causes strength in the Power" is probably getting cause and effect mixed up. Just about any human in possession of superpowers is going to develop the habit of advising everyone else as to where they can stick their halfwit opinions.
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Jan 18, 2014 13:21
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Eric the Mauve posted:Well, yeah... saying "strong will (a diplomatic way of saying 'behaves like a dick to other people') causes strength in the Power" is probably getting cause and effect mixed up. Just about any human in possession of superpowers is going to develop the habit of advising everyone else as to where they can stick their halfwit opinions. Case in point: Rand(madness aside) and the Wonder Girls Before they got strong in the power they're generally fairly decent people. Having some of the greatest superpowers out there changed that fast.
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Jan 18, 2014 13:26
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It's just like what happens when modern people get behind the wheel of a car, really. Isolated from the people you're being a dick to and feeling protected by 1-2 tons of encasing metal, the vast majority of "decent" people immediately morph into aggressive, selfish shitlords that will happily endanger others' safety to shave 20 seconds off their commute and do everything humanly possible to get in front of someone else just because they can. (I do not exclude myself from this, mind.) Decency and manners are basically unnatural things that face-to-face society subtly but powerfully enforces upon most people.
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Jan 18, 2014 14:27
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veekie posted:I don't think we actually see any weak willed strong channelers though. Didn't Talaan basically say "gently caress this, I'm out of here" and got out of dodge rather than undergo the humiliation the Windfinders were putting on her and the Aes Sedai? Did we ever see her again? I think that's either pretty strong will or pretty weak, depending on how you look at it. e: oh, huh, rather than undergo the rest of her Windfinder-mandated training she simply went straight to the source and asked to be a White Tower novice, which makes her the exact opposite of typical Windfinder Aes Sedai apprentices (the "sacrificial lambs"), so she was last seen at Shayol Ghul with Cadsuane's group VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 15:41
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api call girl posted:Didn't Talaan basically say "gently caress this, I'm out of here" and got out of dodge rather than undergo the humiliation the Windfinders were putting on her and the Aes Sedai? Did we ever see her again? Strong will really, because gently caress all this bitching and sniping if she wants to learn anything. The Windfinders and Aes Sedai are playing politics instead of actually trying to teach anything, both ways.
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Jan 18, 2014 16:16
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Hopeford posted:I'm halfway through Lord of Chaos. Loving the series so far, but uhhh, is this around the time the series "slows down" that everyone speaks of? I ask because the non-Mat chapters are starting to feel like a little bit of a chore. "Birgitte and Aviendha don't need minders," he said absently. regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 17:26
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veekie posted:I don't think we actually see any weak willed strong channelers though. Moghedien? Mesaana? Asmodean?
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Jan 18, 2014 18:09
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Kilson posted:Moghedien? Mesaana? Asmodean? Moghedien and Asmodean are amongst the weakest channelers amongst the Forsaken, even so Moghedien took quite a bit of work to break.. Mesaana was shown to be strong willed, it's just a difference in strategy.
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Jan 18, 2014 18:30
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I think being a Forsaken automatically puts you in the strong channeler category, regardless of where you rank among other Forsaken.
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Jan 19, 2014 04:07
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Yup: http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html?m=1
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Jan 19, 2014 06:17
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Blind Melon posted:I think being a Forsaken automatically puts you in the strong channeler category, regardless of where you rank among other Forsaken. Yeah, but both were nerfed. Moghedien was collared and her spirit broken. Asmodean was shielded, down to a mere trickle.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:16
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Yeah, we never actually see what Asmodean would have been like on his own. In the Age of Legends, he still got to rule his own little fiefdom and execute people who played music better than him. In the series proper, we see him in an uneasy alliance with Lanfear of all people and then as Rand's lapdog. And Moghedian was plotting her own rise to power up until the last moments of the series. She just preferred to work indirectly rather than charge headfirst into battle.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:01
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My impression was that Asmodean was content to chill and make music until Lanfear rousted him (there is some throwaway line to this effect) and then he saw an opportunity to strike for the finish line, took it, and lost. I don't think Asmodean executed better musicians, as I recall he simply maimed them so they could no longer play their instrument of choice, or sing or whatever. He also severed his mother, which makes you wonder if his backstory was the gifted musical progeny with really hard driving parents who demanded he be the best.
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Jan 19, 2014 10:10
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Blind Melon posted:My impression was that Asmodean was content to chill and make music until Lanfear rousted him (there is some throwaway line to this effect) and then he saw an opportunity to strike for the finish line, took it, and lost. RJ clarified on that. Asmodean was as reprehensible as any of the Forsaken, he did a great deal of evil things for nothing more than his personal gratification, petty as that may be. He was doing some serious spin doctoring to seem harmless because his ship had sunk and Rand was his only hope of survival.
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Jan 19, 2014 10:25
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I was referring to after being freed with that first paragraph, and I didn't mean to imply that Asmodean got a job, saved up some money, bought a harp and a house, and spent his days composing music. Of course he did evil self serving stuff, and especially during the War of Power (like maiming his competitor musicians). Asmodean never whitewashed himself, he was smart enough to avoid the subject of past crimes entirely. But he also didn't take over any nations, or raise any armies after being freed which suggests that there was some truth to his claims that he was in it for the music.
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Jan 19, 2014 11:02
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What would raising armies and stealing nations have to do with strength of will?
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Jan 19, 2014 11:25
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It takes some to do it. By all indications he had no big plans until he got rolled into Lanfear's. That would indicate a lack of will maybe, especially when you are on team take over/destroy the world.
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Jan 19, 2014 11:28
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Asmodean was the greatest. All the other Forsaken wanted to rule the world or crush their enemies, he just wanted to jam forever. Everybody else is destroying armies or crafting hellspawn, he's putting his resources into maiming Thomas Kinkade.  "Sir! We are prepared to slaughter the innocent for the glory of our dark lord!"  "See to it, but first, put out Roy Orbison's eyes."
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Jan 19, 2014 11:31
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Blind Melon posted:It takes some to do it. By all indications he had no big plans until he got rolled into Lanfear's. That would indicate a lack of will maybe, especially when you are on team take over/destroy the world. It takes will to do it, but will doesn't mean he'd want to. He's applying his will towards rocking out for all eternity. Besides, the Forsaken are lovely team players. Lanfear's objective is to get into Rand's pants.
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Jan 19, 2014 11:34
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McNerd posted:I couldn't even bring myself to finish New Spring, it was so bad. Isn't this also where RJ revealed that Siuan and Moiraine used to do it? That's always bugged me. It kind of spoils some degree of their motivation and what bonds them together. Also, kind of a retcon for something that I never even saw as hinted at.
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Jan 22, 2014 16:05
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AlternateAccount posted:Isn't this also where RJ revealed that Siuan and Moiraine used to do it? That's always bugged me. It kind of spoils some degree of their motivation and what bonds them together. Also, kind of a retcon for something that I never even saw as hinted at. Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jan 22, 2014 |
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Jan 22, 2014 16:11
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It is strongly implied that they are 'pillow friends' which is an Aes Sedai euphemism for Lesbian activities amongst initiates. Aes Sedai avoid talking about it, and the implication is that the concept in general is more 'single sex boarding school experimenting and shenanigans' than Sian and Moirane actually being gay.
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Jan 22, 2014 16:28
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Asmodean is pretty great, and probably one of the Forsaken with the most "character" other than maybe Ishamael. But then again the amount of character you can attribute to the Forsaken is pretty much linear with their #page-space ('sup Demandred/Mesaana).
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Jan 22, 2014 20:24
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I was always under impression Alivia was much stronger than Lanfear.
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Jan 23, 2014 13:39
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WastedJoker posted:I was always under impression Alivia was much stronger than Lanfear. When Lanfear mentioned Alivia was stronger than she had been at the height of her powers, Alivia has an angreal. I think she mentions it's impossible Alivia is naturally stronger as nobody could be stronger.
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Jan 23, 2014 15:18
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AlternateAccount posted:Isn't this also where RJ revealed that Siuan and Moiraine used to do it? That's always bugged me. It kind of spoils some degree of their motivation and what bonds them together. Also, kind of a retcon for something that I never even saw as hinted at. Naw, that was brought up some time before the Tower Rebellion in the main series as well. I recall an Aes Sedai saying it was pretty suspicious that former pillow friends would suddenly pretend they didn't know each other after getting raised.
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Jan 23, 2014 15:32
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I had forgotten about that ranking, but Morgase’s strength being at the lowest totem pole kinda sinks any sort of "Strength of Will = Strength in the One Power" idea, because she resisted/broke compulsion from one of the Forsaken.
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Jan 23, 2014 19:27
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Pimpmust posted:I had forgotten about that ranking, but Morgase’s strength being at the lowest totem pole kinda sinks any sort of "Strength of Will = Strength in the One Power" idea, because she resisted/broke compulsion from one of the Forsaken. You're going the wrong way. Strength in power implies strength in will, so that anyone who is very strong with the One Power will have a good deal of will to go along with it. The converse is NOT true, that strength in will implies strength in power. There are plenty of strong-willed people who are weak with the One Power.
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Jan 23, 2014 19:46
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Grundulum posted:You're going the wrong way. Strength in power implies strength in will, so that anyone who is very strong with the One Power will have a good deal of will to go along with it. The converse is NOT true, that strength in will implies strength in power. There are plenty of strong-willed people who are weak with the One Power. Sorilea. Or, in fact, any number of people who can't channel at all. Any of the Heroes of the Horn (that aren't Rand) would probably count here.
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Jan 23, 2014 20:08
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Kinda hard to tell if most of the strong channelers are actually strong in will too or just incredibly Crazy/Selfish/Dense, especially considering how many of them start to have shitfits whenever things don't go their way. I thought one big theme is that "letting go" and those who manage it are the actually strong ones (like say, Morgase or any other formerly "strong ruler" who ends up in some sort of spanking relationship  ), not the ones who can throw around a busload of fireballs.Basically it's just a useless thing to believe in, because strength in power equals strength in will except when it doesn't (which holds true for those weak in the power, or those not channelers at all).
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Jan 24, 2014 06:50
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It's just a stupid thing you'd convince yourself of to justify a social standing system based on the power. It shouldn't be considered anything but Aes Sedai making themselves feel better about their dumb system.
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Jan 24, 2014 18:16
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Not to mention being told constantly to shut up and defer to her because she is stronger in the Power / finished school quicker just might have an influence on will.
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Jan 24, 2014 23:38
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Just finishing a reread and I forgot just how much of a min-maxed player character Androl is its awesome.
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Apr 3, 2014 20:38
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So various parts of the Worldcon community seem a bit grumpy that the Wheel of Time as a complete series has been nominated for the Best Novel Hugo this year. Can't wait to see if their dislike will be enough to overwhelm the WoT fans votes who joined the past year or two.
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Apr 24, 2014 20:49
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I haven't read the rules, but being allowed to nominate/vote for a 14-book series published over two decades does seem a little bit against the spirit of "Best novel of the year" in multiple ways.
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Apr 25, 2014 13:54
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Grundulum posted:I haven't read the rules, but being allowed to nominate/vote for a 14-book series published over two decades does seem a little bit against the spirit of "Best novel of the year" in multiple ways. It's my understanding that WoT was ineligible for nomination before for exactly that reason. So this is essentially its only chance for the Hugo.
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Apr 25, 2014 15:14
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Grundulum posted:I haven't read the rules, but being allowed to nominate/vote for a 14-book series published over two decades does seem a little bit against the spirit of "Best novel of the year" in multiple ways. According to Brandon's assistant Peter, the person who wrote and got said rule included says it's a perfectly fine use of the rule. Although yeah, I think lots of people are doing a "well, really?" about it. Including me. And each individual work should have been eligible for a Hugo but apparently wasn't nominated. Therefore it is eligible as a whole now that the story is complete. Also, the entire Wheel of Time series is going to be included in the voter packet. Just need to finish it and all the other novels before voting in July. edit: and a LonCon3 supporting membership is £25 which would get you voting rights (and the voter packet with nominated works that the publisher permit to be sent to voters), and the ability to nominate for next years Hugos (though not vote). fordan fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 21:23
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fordan posted:According to Brandon's assistant Peter, the person who wrote and got said rule included says it's a perfectly fine use of the rule. Although yeah, I think lots of people are doing a "well, really?" about it. Including me. Shouldn't be too hard. Reading WoT in a month or so is fairly comfortable. I've done it in 10 days when I've pushed myself.
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Apr 26, 2014 01:35
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fordan posted:edit: and a LonCon3 supporting membership is £25 which would get you voting rights (and the voter packet with nominated works that the publisher permit to be sent to voters), and the ability to nominate for next years Hugos (though not vote). So, about 45 bucks for ALL of WoT plus whatever else ends up in the nomination packet? How do I give these people money, because that's one heck of a deal.
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