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Arkeus posted:Yeah, it seems we are watching a different show. Akane doesn't want to take down Sybil, she wants to make it stronger and more pervasive. Sybil isn't "bad" in the show, the whole theme of S2 is how Akane has to juggle a direct attack against Sybil into a way to make Sybil stronger and not just defend it. I don't mean Sybil is evil in the sense that it's the main villain but as we've seen so far it's easy to manipulate the results and it's not omniscient at all. IIRC Akane is interested in a world where a system similar to Sybil won't have to exist to judge/maintain society because people should have free will and etc. There are a few scenes where she doesn't rely on Sybil's judgement and decides on her own how to handle the situation. This is based off my own observations from S1 and S2 as there might be some new details I've missed from the Extended version. Although, Togane doesn't really have much characterization going for him other than him being a foil to Akane's persona and his goals. Also, he's not a failure as he was able to turn several Inspectors into latent criminals already in the past. Raenir Salazar posted:Well stronger in a certain sense, she wants it to be more objective and less driven by pettiness or ego like the Togane chief. Welp but that's the message how Sybil can't be flawless because it was made by people and people can't be perfect  Also, they mentioned there was a lot of funding by special interest groups and politicians for it before it was completed. Alder fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 03:18
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Sybil is evil because it doesn't actually care about catching criminals. It knows a lot of it's judgements are bullshit, and just keeps on going. Any flaw is covered up and detractors are arrested or murdered. It's not an unfeeling computer that is blindly doing it's best. It's a collection of psychopaths trying to perpetuate its own existence.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:15
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Dr_Amazing posted:Sybil is evil because it doesn't actually care about catching criminals. It knows a lot of it's judgements are bullshit, and just keeps on going. Any flaw is covered up and detractors are arrested or murdered. It's not an unfeeling computer that is blindly doing it's best. It's a collection of psychopaths trying to perpetuate its own existence. But guns don't kill people I want to give the original creators the benefit of the doubt and say they had good intentions but their methods were poorly thought out and implemented. Wouldn't it be nice to feel there's someone who could provide all the answers instead of people who are motivated by petty factors? A system where justice is quantified by HUE or Crime Coefficients?
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Dec 15, 2014 04:46
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I'm sure the creators did their best but the whole system seems to barely held together by gum and shoelaces. It's a well known fact that being the victim of crime is indistinguishable from being the perpetrator. It's treated as a feature and not a bug. The whole system goes into red alert if something stresses out the public, but no one is able to figure out that maybe they should just look at the settings instead of treating everyone that had a bad day like a ticking time bomb. The whole thing could maybe work if it was just a calculating machine. But a self aware system that can enforce the law at will is a terrible idea. Maybe it went wrong when they started adding criminal brains into the mix. If it's 90% criminals maybe that's causing a lot of the problems.
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Dec 15, 2014 05:00
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I think P-P series works better as a character study and/or self-reflection on how JPN society considers mental illnesses than a sci-fi dystopia because so many plot holes. It's interesting because it tries to confront IRL problems but still falls somewhat short to expectations at the end. BTW:I knew someone who called S1 "pretentious" which misses the point where the police can use rayguns to administer JUSTICE and secret brain box harvesting rooms.
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Dec 15, 2014 06:10
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TBH, I thought the first season was largely Urobutchi dissecting modern Japanese culture across a broad spectrum. This is another reason I found this season so lackluster, as it traded that social commentary for a string of exploding corpses. While the hijacking episode came close to a sort of commentary on how gaming effects people, in the end it really wasn't that deep. :/
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Dec 15, 2014 06:36
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Arkeus posted:Togane's evil face? what? seems like either you or I are completely misreading this show. Roughly four minutes in to episode 10, there's a still image of him while he monologue about how much he's going to gently caress up Akane and it's like the animators thought Jack Nicholson was drastically under selling his insanity in the Shining. I mean honestly at this point his character makes no loving sense. It's not even the kind of thing I normally notice, but this instance was just so loving goofy I started laughing.
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Dec 15, 2014 07:26
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:Roughly four minutes in to episode 10, there's a still image of him while he monologue about how much he's going to gently caress up Akane and it's like the animators thought Jack Nicholson was drastically under selling his insanity in the Shining. I mean honestly at this point his character makes no loving sense. It's not even the kind of thing I normally notice, but this instance was just so loving goofy I started laughing.  Yup, pretty goofy.
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Dec 15, 2014 07:35
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Dr_Amazing posted:I'm sure the creators did their best but the whole system seems to barely held together by gum and shoelaces. It's a well known fact that being the victim of crime is indistinguishable from being the perpetrator. It's treated as a feature and not a bug. The whole system goes into red alert if something stresses out the public, but no one is able to figure out that maybe they should just look at the settings instead of treating everyone that had a bad day like a ticking time bomb. To be fair, there's only been two dictatorships in all of fiction whose power reaches lovecraftian levels of horror in how self perpetuating and enduring their legacy and ability to crush the human spirit is. 1984 and Brave New World if no one knows. P-P's brain jars are scubs compared to that.
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Dec 15, 2014 22:44
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That's partly because the Japan in PP is made up of a number of competing hierarchies (just like in regular Japan, which has pretty much just the one dominant political party, but lots of factions and ministries compete for power). You have Welfare and Public Safety, which makes up the most important centre of power. At its core it is Sibyl and its Enforcers, and in the periphery are all the network of stress scanners. Then you have other ministries, like Economy, which desperately try to defend their turf from MWPSB. Sibyl seems happy to delegate those other responsibilities to those other ministries, if only to allow the illusion that it does not have absolute power over society. PP is dependent on the facade of a rule of law. It could never work with 1984 levels of arbitrariness and state authority.
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Dec 15, 2014 23:07
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Raenir Salazar posted:Well stronger in a certain sense, she wants it to be more objective and less driven by pettiness or ego like the Togane chief. a°) Togane's chief is currently his mother as a punishment for her. She isn't Sybil, she is in fact cut off (most times) from Sybil and is there to co-orodinate because she hosed up. This is why Akane when talking about Sybil didn't care what the chief was saying- the chief right now is an inmate, not a leader. b°) What Sybil is afraid to do is to be able to judge collectives which individual members are clear. While that is partly for self-preservation, it's also explicitely because they didn't want to go too far into dictatorship and judging societies/etc. What do you think the movie trailers is about wars in other countries? Obviously, Sybil becomes able to judge the US/EU as 'evil' that must be eradicated, thanks to Akane (and that's partly Akane's goal). Dr_Amazing posted:I'm sure the creators did their best but the whole system seems to barely held together by gum and shoelaces. It's a well known fact that being the victim of crime is indistinguishable from being the perpetrator. It's treated as a feature and not a bug. The whole system goes into red alert if something stresses out the public, but no one is able to figure out that maybe they should just look at the settings instead of treating everyone that had a bad day like a ticking time bomb. It works. Sybil is /good/ in the setting. It makes people happier, safer, more productive. It's not finished growing/evolving, but so far it's a flat out better world than ours/etc, at least given what was shown. Now, as for "evolving", they are currently taking constant baby-steps, hence Mika and testing how she acclimate to the truth, etc. Akane wants bigger steps/more dictatorship. quote:The whole thing could maybe work if it was just a calculating machine. But a self aware system that can enforce the law at will is a terrible idea. Maybe it went wrong when they started adding criminal brains into the mix. If it's 90% criminals maybe that's causing a lot of the problems.
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Dec 16, 2014 03:36
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You are crazy nuts if you think the moral of this show or what it's trying to portray is that sibyl is a good thing even the shitshow that is season 2 understands that and it completely missed all other points
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Dec 16, 2014 04:29
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Phobophilia posted:You have Welfare and Public Safety, which makes up the most important centre of power. At its core it is Sibyl and its Enforcers, and in the periphery are all the network of stress scanners. Reminds me, I kept waiting for someone in the show to mention the other govt bodies but it never happened . This leads to me wondering if Japan still has a parliamentary style politics as of now. Sure everyone is cool working for the Safety Bureau but what about working for Finance or Agriculture, huh? Someone has to regulate all those Super Wheat Oats or materials. What happened to the world building? I need to know. The Chief=Sybil as the body itself is just a container so she can pretend that Sybil isn't pulling all the strings and running the entire show. People would be more accepting of a another human as the main leader vs a just a system/program, right? Also, I don't see where in either season as the audience we're suppose to think this is a GREAT IDEA for society.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:43
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Arkeus posted:
It's not a feature (or shouldn't be) because it shows that Sybil just isn't that good at judging people. The whole point is to identify criminals before they commit crimes. At that point they can be given treatment/ exploded to protect society at large. But we've seen many times that just being a victim of a crime can push you into explosion territory. We've also seen that it's pretty easy to talk these people down if you stop threatening to explode them. Despite this law enforcement is encouraged to quickly murder anyone the gun tells them too. It's common for Sybil to treat people worse than the criminals do. Trying to communicate with a criminal or victim will likely get you exploded yourself. But then it fails the other way. Criminals keep finding ways to exploit the system. The solution they come up with is to hide the problem and bring the criminals into the system that runs the whole country. You can argue people seem happy but they're basically walking pharmacies at this point. The whole thing is just one hasty solution slapped on another. We can't detect all criminals: deny it and recruit more criminals to help us. Our best cops are being flagged as criminals: demote or arrest them. Our highest ranked cops can't figure out the simplest crimes and are murdering victims too: hire more criminals. (But only good ones) Cops are still murdering a lot of innocent people: ignore it. Just want to note as well how dumb it is that Sybil is supposed to be able to give an extremely precise measurement of how criminal you are but uses it on a pretty binary live/die decision. Steal something: jail Listen to the wrong music: jail Assault: death Murder: death Terrorism: death Extremely successful terrorism: welcome to the Sybil system.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:00
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So they flushed enough brains to lower the crime coefficient to normal (asymptomatic) but left Togane Sr.'s brain in the system? And what is the collective psycho pass sibyl referred to exactly
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Dec 18, 2014 20:29
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Relin posted:So they flushed enough brains to lower the crime coefficient to normal (asymptomatic) but left Togane Sr.'s brain in the system? And what is the collective psycho pass sibyl referred to exactly Togane Sr.'s brain was in the Chiefbot so it got fried when Kamui shot at it. The collective psycho pass is basically a judgement on society instead of on individuals, so that even if every member of the society could be deemed as lawful the society itself could be judged as ill/criminal. The implication being that Japanese society could very drat well receive a negative judgement, and I suppose that Nazi Germany would be a very good historical example of what we're talking about.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:54
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YF-23 posted:Togane Sr.'s brain was in the Chiefbot so it got fried when Kamui shot at it.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:05
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YF-23 posted:Togane Sr.'s brain was in the Chiefbot so it got fried when Kamui shot at it. The collective psycho pass is basically a judgement on society instead of on individuals, so that even if every member of the society could be deemed as lawful the society itself could be judged as ill/criminal. The implication being that Japanese society could very drat well receive a negative judgement, and I suppose that Nazi Germany would be a very good historical example of what we're talking about. That, and Groups within the society Or even Other nations, hence why we are getting a movie where they appear to be in war with the US Dr_Amazing posted:It's not a feature (or shouldn't be) because it shows that Sybil just isn't that good at judging people. No, see, the point is to get people before they become criminals, or to make sure people are criminals. In this show, commiting a crime doesn't make you a criminal, it's being someone that doesn't care about comitting crime/etc that make you one. There is no 'punishment' as long as you are not deemed a criminal even if you kill hundreds of people, as they don't punish crime itself. quote:Snip stuff Arkeus fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 22:37
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Relin posted:I thought they only downloaded/connected into the bot one at a time though, when was it established the brain was in the robot Season 1. Makishima cracks the chiefs head open like a coconut and kills Kouzoborou
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Dec 18, 2014 23:31
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Well that was lame. Togane still made some p good faces throughout, I guess. Bring on that movie.
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Dec 18, 2014 23:36
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I never understood why one of the Sybil brains gets to be in charge (via robot chief) or why anyone would think that the Sybil brains (who are all criminals) would want to enforce the system that chopped them up and put their brains in a jar. Was that explained somewhere in the first season? I mean, I get how Sybil is made up of a bunch of disparate brain types so it can compare the person being scanned against a huge spectrum of criminal abnormalities but shouldn't there be some external system that just uses the brains as sample data? Isn't that like quarantining plague patients but then putting them in charge of the hospital?
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Dec 19, 2014 00:04
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organism posted:I never understood why one of the Sybil brains gets to be in charge They take turns. Being a brain in a jar would get pretty boring.
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Dec 19, 2014 00:08
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Zahki posted:They take turns. Being a brain in a jar would get pretty boring. Do they just go "well, shucks, guess you foiled my dastardly schemes and now I will do my utmost to uphold this system that executed me with no ulterior motive on my part"?
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Dec 19, 2014 00:13
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organism posted:Do they just go "well, shucks, guess you foiled my dastardly schemes and now I will do my utmost to uphold this system that executed me with no ulterior motive on my part"? They're a collective, they work like the Borg. Being assimilated into the collective presumably means they lose their individuality til they get to have a ride in the Chief robot.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:10
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Zahki posted:They're a collective, they work like the Borg. Being assimilated into the collective presumably means they lose their individuality til they get to have a ride in the Chief robot. I'm rewatching the first season now, and yeah, this is pretty much how it works as far as I understand it. When Sibyl was explaining itself to Akane, it was saying to her that all the brains in the system have "harmonized" with each other, such that they can pool their collective intellect as one system but their individual personalities have more or less vanished.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:15
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Are we just going by the trailer? I clearly heard the word "terrorist organization" so I doubt its an all out war or how that would begin to make sense. Though it'll be funny if it involves an allegory to Commodore Perry in some way given how isolationist the current Japan is.
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Dec 19, 2014 03:20
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The description from wikipedia: Four years after the death of Shogo Makishima and the disappearance of Shinya Kōgami, the Japanese government begins to export the "Sibyl System" technology to other countries, spreading it throughout the world. A state in the midst of a civil war, SEAUn (the South East Asia Union, pronounced "shian"), brings in the Sibyl System as an experiment, and the coastal town of Shambala Float achieves temporary peace and safety. But then terrorists from SEAUn appear in Japan, slipping through the Sibyl System and attacking from within, drawing Akane Tsunemori and her team to Shambala Float to investigate. I don't get a vibe that America is involved from that or the trailer. Or I missed something key in the trailer.
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Dec 19, 2014 04:13
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Dangerous Person posted:The description from wikipedia:  I hope it doesn't spread to my poor beaver and maple syrup paradise.  
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Dec 19, 2014 04:18
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Arkeus posted:That, and Groups within the society Or even Other nations, hence why we are getting a movie where they appear to be in war with the US TBH, has there ever been a movie where USA is shown in a positive light vs JPN? @YF-23: Agreed and good summary of main episode points which I wasn't 100% certain about when the credits started rolling and all. The ending was better than I expected and I think I understand S2. I don't want to start comparing S1 and S2 because they were too different and I won't gain much from it either. Instead I think S2 worked well as a subplot featuring Akane and how she respects the law despite well it's flawed and good people sometimes die for no reason. The villain Togane is kinda boring for his reasons and actions but hey, so it goes. Kamui well, he did have a few memorable scenes, and I liked how he directly asked Akane why she didn't just end Sybil right then and now.  Mika in the end did NOT administer justice which is fine with me. She did learn about her personal limits and the scene w/Yayoi was nice. I still stand by the idea how the creators let her story fall apart into nothing. BTW: I didn't get to see Kougami but maybe the movies will have his surprise entrance. IDK. Bonus: 
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Dec 19, 2014 04:34
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Just caught up with the show, which is apparently finished? That was short. I wouldn't say this was a bad second season - maybe just not quite as good as the first - but the themes didn't make as much of an impact as the first. Kamui's body and brain being a patchwork of pieces from other bodies feels like a contrived way to deal with the idea of judging Sybil as a collective consciousness - which on its own isn't a bad concept but it's just not possible to do without some major contrivance, and in that regard I supposed this story was a best case scenario. But at the end of the day it feels unnecessary, almost detrimental to the ideas of the first season. Also, Kogami didn't show up in person once. That's the most disappointing part.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:36
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He showed up in her mind though, and that's what counts.
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Dec 19, 2014 21:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:He showed up in her mind though, and that's what counts. True and twice if you count him in the OP/ED too. I swear all zoom-ins on the cigarette and incense holder were a bit overdone and I felt like I was watching an ad...
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Dec 19, 2014 22:36
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ViggyNash posted:Kamui's body and brain being a patchwork of pieces from other bodies feels like a contrived way to deal with the idea of judging Sybil as a collective consciousness - which on its own isn't a bad concept but it's just not possible to do without some major contrivance, and in that regard I supposed this story was a best case scenario. But at the end of the day it feels unnecessary, almost detrimental to the ideas of the first season. I was unclear about So at the end it at first it looked like all of the brains were being disintegrated to form some even-more-collective entity, but apparently it was just some of the brains being taken out of the aquarium for being bad fish? Do I have it right? But doesn't getting rid of individual brains go against the whole collective judgment thing? 
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Dec 25, 2014 09:26
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Zogundar posted:I was unclear about In the same way that Mama Togane turned out to be a bad apple, there must be many other bad apples in the collective. It just so happened that Mama Togane was the most capable at directly influencing the outside world and was therefore the most noticeable. As for going against collective judgment, yes, it kind of does. That was Kamui goal in the end: to force Sybil to judge itself and realize it it imperfect. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Dec 25, 2014 |
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Dec 25, 2014 15:31
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I ended up liking the central theme of this season: that Sybil fosters healthy individuals but a sick society. I just wish they could have developed the idea more.
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Dec 25, 2014 15:44
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Zogundar posted:I was unclear about Those were the brains that were responsible for the rise of the Sibyl's collective psycho pass. Individually, their psycho pass was null - since Sibyl only accepts criminally asymptomatic people by definition. But Sibyl's collective psycho pass, once issued, was through the roof, so Sibyl wanted to correct that, and it calculated that the reason its collective psyscho pass was so high was the judgement input of those bunch of brains, so it corrected the collective psycho pass by removing the cause for it shooting as high as it did, ie the brains whose judgements made it increase. e; v Whoops. In my defence I kinda doubt anyone reading this thread at this point hasn't actually watched the last episode. YF-23 fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 25, 2014 16:07
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YF-23 posted:Those were the brains that were responsible for the rise of the Sibyl's collective psycho pass. Individually, their psycho pass was null - since Sibyl only accepts criminally asymptomatic people by definition. But Sibyl's collective psycho pass, once issued, was through the roof, so Sibyl wanted to correct that, and it calculated that the reason its collective psyscho pass was so high was the judgement input of those bunch of brains, so it corrected the collective psycho pass by removing the cause for it shooting as high as it did, ie the brains whose judgements made it increase. might wanna fix your spoiler tag there love
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Dec 26, 2014 16:26
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Gotta say that Psycho-Pass was some fun stuff; thanks for the tip-off, guys as I love that sort of dystopian, sci-fi thing.
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Dec 31, 2014 01:08
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New movie trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn9DEPD7Rko more spoilers
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Jan 9, 2015 07:28
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Yeah, that pretty much just looks smokin hot all the way around. And it's definitely got a proper movie budget behind it, too.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:39
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