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HenryJLittlefinger
Jan 31, 2010

stomp clap


Can someone please explain Hungarian high altitude flour to me? I made a sourdough loaf and some biscuits, and couldn’t tell any difference from my usual Gold Medal loaves and biscuits, except a little better crumb. My wife made roux with it last night though and when she was browning the flour a bunch of it kind of melted and clumped up almost like tar. It was weird. Higher sugar content? More gluten/other proteins?

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Solumin
Jan 11, 2013




Hey bread thread. Does anyone have any experience with 100% rye loaves? I've been trying to make sourdough rye bread with my own starter, and my bread keeps turning out without absolutely no holes in it at all -- just a dense block. I swear it even collapses in the oven a little. I'm know I'm not going to get the rise I would see with wheat bread, but I would still expect a little rise! I'm baking it in a bread tin, if that helps -- I'd like to have sandwhich-shaped slices if possible.

I'm using my own starter, so I know I'm not guaranteed to get fast rises like I would with commercial yeast. My starter takes a good 6 - 12 hours to double, mostly because it's a little chilly here for yeast, about 65 - 68 deg. F in my kitchen. When actually using it to make bread, I see a great rise when doing the levain build, but then basically nothing after making the full dough. Any thoughts?

(It turns out I'm allergic to wheat, but I'm not ready to cut bread out of my life, so I'm stuck with 100% rye recipes. I'm not allergic to all gluten. Vital wheat gluten isn't an option.)

SymmetryrtemmyS
Jul 13, 2013

I got super tired of seeing your avatar throwing those fuckin' glasses around in the astrology thread so I fixed it to a .jpg

Solumin posted:

Hey bread thread. Does anyone have any experience with 100% rye loaves? I've been trying to make sourdough rye bread with my own starter, and my bread keeps turning out without absolutely no holes in it at all -- just a dense block. I swear it even collapses in the oven a little. I'm know I'm not going to get the rise I would see with wheat bread, but I would still expect a little rise! I'm baking it in a bread tin, if that helps -- I'd like to have sandwhich-shaped slices if possible.

I'm using my own starter, so I know I'm not guaranteed to get fast rises like I would with commercial yeast. My starter takes a good 6 - 12 hours to double, mostly because it's a little chilly here for yeast, about 65 - 68 deg. F in my kitchen. When actually using it to make bread, I see a great rise when doing the levain build, but then basically nothing after making the full dough. Any thoughts?

(It turns out I'm allergic to wheat, but I'm not ready to cut bread out of my life, so I'm stuck with 100% rye recipes. I'm not allergic to all gluten. Vital wheat gluten isn't an option.)

Rye doesn't produce gluten. Have you considered using glutinous rice powder? Your only other option is to ferment it for like an entire week and then steam/bake it for 12-24 hours like schwarzbrot.

Electric Hobo
Oct 22, 2008



Grimey Drawer

Solumin posted:

Hey bread thread. Does anyone have any experience with 100% rye loaves? I've been trying to make sourdough rye bread with my own starter, and my bread keeps turning out without absolutely no holes in it at all -- just a dense block. I swear it even collapses in the oven a little. I'm know I'm not going to get the rise I would see with wheat bread, but I would still expect a little rise! I'm baking it in a bread tin, if that helps -- I'd like to have sandwhich-shaped slices if possible.

I'm using my own starter, so I know I'm not guaranteed to get fast rises like I would with commercial yeast. My starter takes a good 6 - 12 hours to double, mostly because it's a little chilly here for yeast, about 65 - 68 deg. F in my kitchen. When actually using it to make bread, I see a great rise when doing the levain build, but then basically nothing after making the full dough. Any thoughts?

(It turns out I'm allergic to wheat, but I'm not ready to cut bread out of my life, so I'm stuck with 100% rye recipes. I'm not allergic to all gluten. Vital wheat gluten isn't an option.)
Danish rye bread can be made with nothing but rye, but it can be an aquired taste. It's more like pumpernickel, so it's dense and hard, and usually sliced thin.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004



Fun Shoe

You can do all-rye sourdough too, but you need a ~12 hour ferment after the dough is shaped and it still doesn't rise much.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


http://girlmeetsrye.blogspot.com/20...routed-rye.html

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013




Thanks for the replies!

Electric Hobo posted:

Danish rye bread can be made with nothing but rye, but it can be an aquired taste. It's more like pumpernickel, so it's dense and hard, and usually sliced thin.

I'll look up a recipe for that! Pumpernickel is usually a ~12 hour bake, which sounds fun.

Liquid Communism posted:

You can do all-rye sourdough too, but you need a ~12 hour ferment after the dough is shaped and it still doesn't rise much.

Alright, I'll try doing the post-shape rise longer. 8 hours just isn't enough I guess. I'm tempted to go to ciabatta levels of hydration, too.


This looks great, thanks!

SymmetryrtemmyS posted:

Rye doesn't produce gluten. Have you considered using glutinous rice powder? Your only other option is to ferment it for like an entire week and then steam/bake it for 12-24 hours like schwarzbrot.

Whoever told you that was a liar. Using something to augment the gluten is an interesting idea, I'll look into it.

SymmetryrtemmyS
Jul 13, 2013

I got super tired of seeing your avatar throwing those fuckin' glasses around in the astrology thread so I fixed it to a .jpg

Solumin posted:

Thanks for the replies!


I'll look up a recipe for that! Pumpernickel is usually a ~12 hour bake, which sounds fun.


Alright, I'll try doing the post-shape rise longer. 8 hours just isn't enough I guess. I'm tempted to go to ciabatta levels of hydration, too.


This looks great, thanks!


Whoever told you that was a liar. Using something to augment the gluten is an interesting idea, I'll look into it.

Okay yeah, rye contains gluten, just not glutenin. It's a different form, and much weaker as well as lower quantities. I did speak inaccurately.

JudgeX
Jul 22, 2007

What we do have in common is the fact that we're human.


Unfortunately these are the properties of rye, without the ability to create an elastic gluten network it's going to be a dense bread. However, finely milled rye flour will give you a more open crumb than coarse ground rye flour. are ancient grains and offshoots off the table as well?

poverty goat
Feb 15, 2004



I made a couple loaves of 100% hydration 100% rye sourdough a few weeks back. It was really easy, just mix, put in loaf pan, proof and bake, and I got a relatively dense crumb with tiny holes. There's no need to knead and develop gluten, as rye doesn't work the same way and working it will turn it to cement, and there's nothing to shape because it's a loaf pan full of batter. I did have an issue where it would fall a bit at the tail end of the bake and the crumb inside the loaf would separate from the top crust, but otherwise it was a fine loaf of rye bread for the trouble.

I didn't stick with it though because wheat is p great

poverty goat fucked around with this message at Mar 30, 2019 around 17:25

JudgeX
Jul 22, 2007

What we do have in common is the fact that we're human.

poverty goat posted:

I made a couple loaves of 100% hydration 100% rye sourdough a few weeks back. It was really easy, just mix, put in loaf pan, proof and bake, and I got a relatively dense crumb with tiny holes. There's no need to knead and develop gluten, as rye doesn't work the same way and working it will turn it to cement, and there's nothing to shape because it's a loaf pan full of batter. I did have an issue where it would fall a bit at the tail end of the bake and the crumb inside the loaf would separate from the top crust, but otherwise it was a fine loaf of rye bread for the trouble.

I didn't stick with it though because wheat is p great

This is what lets you integrate an other wise foolish amount of seeds, nuts, dried fruits, and sprouted or soaked grain. I just invented rugbrod

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013




"Dense with tiny holes" is better than what I'm getting now, which is dense with no holes at all. 100% hydration sounds interesting though, I might have to try it. My last recipe was 69% hydration.

I wish I could still eat wheat.

JudgeX posted:

Unfortunately these are the properties of rye, without the ability to create an elastic gluten network it's going to be a dense bread. However, finely milled rye flour will give you a more open crumb than coarse ground rye flour. are ancient grains and offshoots off the table as well?

I have no idea, sadly. I don't know what specifically in wheat it is that I'm allergic to, because it's easier and cheaper to eliminate all wheat than try to narrow it down. So if it has the same gluten structure as wheat (gliadins + glutenin), it's best I avoid it.
Barley, oats and rye should all be fine, so anything more closely related to those than to wheat would be interesting options.

poverty goat
Feb 15, 2004



Have you ruled out spelt? It's a close relative of wheat, but it's anecdotally easier for some people with gluten issues to digest. It's also delicious and it behaves kind of like wheat.

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013




Alright, just baked another loaf. Something like 74% hydration, let it proof for a full 12 hours. The last couple hours were on top of the oven as it preheated.
It's a massive improvement over the last loaves! It has an actual (slight) dome to it.
However, the sides split, which (afaik) suggests it was underpoofed. I also noticed that the dough seemed really dry after 12 hours.

So, next time:
- tighter seal on the tin when proofing. I've been loosely covering it, gonna try a tighter cover with plastic wrap.
- let it rise longer (24 hours??) or in a warmer area. (I have little control over the heat of my kitchen.)
- possibly an even wetter dough??

I've got something to look forward to tomorrow, at least!

poverty goat posted:

Have you ruled out spelt? It's a close relative of wheat, but it's anecdotally easier for some people with gluten issues to digest. It's also delicious and it behaves kind of like wheat.

I have not! I'm hesitant to try it, since it's so closely related to wheat. And I don't know if I have a wheat gluten problem, or something else in wheat.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Most 100% rye breads tends to be dense and chewy. If you google ruisleipä resepti you ought to find plenty of finnish recipes for rye bread, perhaps google translate can help to make them understandable. 100% rye breads are traditional here. I don't bake 100% ryes though, they're so plentiful in stores and difficult to bake properly I think. So I just buy something like Oululainen jälkiuunileipä, a favorite of mine.

Menschsein
Sep 15, 2007

Ne carne ne pesce

Ham Wrangler

I'd also stress that with homemade rye bread, as you retain and feed part of the starter, you really need to come to terms with the fact that with a new starter, the first x (four or five or so) loaves are a sacrifice to the bread gods. The starter needs time to evolve into itself and it can be a longish process.

Here's a legit rye bread (loaf tin) recipe, disregard the somewhat unorthodox approach. Smoked meat is optional. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTGT2P-zsGg

Solumin
Jan 11, 2013




Menschsein posted:

I'd also stress that with homemade rye bread, as you retain and feed part of the starter, you really need to come to terms with the fact that with a new starter, the first x (four or five or so) loaves are a sacrifice to the bread gods. The starter needs time to evolve into itself and it can be a longish process.

Here's a legit rye bread (loaf tin) recipe, disregard the somewhat unorthodox approach. Smoked meat is optional. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTGT2P-zsGg

When you say "sacrifice to the bread gods," do you mean in terms of taste or just overall quality?
You're the second person to link that video to me! I haven't been able to finish watching it.

Just finished a loaf this morning! 80% hydration. I had the loaf tin tightly covered with plastic wrap, but part of the loaf stuck to the plastic! So I had to leave it uncovered after that because I didn't have a better solution.
The loaf looks great, I'm letting it set for a few more hours. Thanks for the advice, bread thread.

Menschsein
Sep 15, 2007

Ne carne ne pesce

Ham Wrangler

Solumin posted:

When you say "sacrifice to the bread gods," do you mean in terms of taste or just overall quality?
You're the second person to link that video to me! I haven't been able to finish watching it.

My black bread endeavours are way behind me, but as I recall, the older the starter, the more reliable (and valuable) it is. The flavour and crumb develop, so you can say the overall quality gets better.

This might be random advice, but if you're interested in obtaining an old starter, assuming you're in a large city, the local Estonian House or community almost fetishises black bread and someone is certain to share their starter with you. Beware the old ladies though, they might adopt you and teach you The Right Way To Bread. Disclaimer: experiences may vary.

Hell Yeah
Dec 25, 2012



probably one of the last ones i'll put out this year since i dont bake much bread in the summer:

Stringent
Dec 22, 2004

The internet is the universal sewer.


https://twitter.com/SeamusBlackley/...465991619891201

Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010




"Uniquely nontoxic gluten"

SymmetryrtemmyS
Jul 13, 2013

I got super tired of seeing your avatar throwing those fuckin' glasses around in the astrology thread so I fixed it to a .jpg

if you are in the market for a kitchen scale, especially one for bread, forget the kd-8000 and go straight for the maestro

it's basically the same price (comes in lower than the kd8k + ac adapter, and it includes an adapter) and it is a pretty big upgrade in several ways

key differences, from least to most important:

1) softer touch buttons, with a more responsive ui
2) more pleasing beeps
3) better form factor, with a slightly larger weighing platform and less vertical height
4) it shows you how close to overloading the scale you are, so you don't damage it
5) detachable display
6) slide-out 0.1g scale
7) it's all black so that's obviously a huge perk

it's basically what happens when you ask michael ruhlman how to design the perfect kitchen scale. he takes the kd-8000 and overhauls it.

Edmond Dantes
Sep 12, 2007

Reactor: Online
Sensors: Online
Weapons: Online

ALL SYSTEMS NOMINAL


So I finally decided to :justbake: and tried following this recipe to make burger buns. Results were not spectacular but I think not terrible?



That's right out of the oven, after the second coat of butter while they were still hot. They look super undercooked in the picture, but I swear they look a bit better in person; they baked for 18 mins at 190C (375F); the bottom is quite brown so I don't think I undercooked them, but they don't look like the site's pictures

Anything I should be on the lookout for? I halved all measurements since I was only making 4 buns, but other than that I followed the recipe to a T. Let rise for 2 hours covered then ~50 mins after making the 4 separate 'buns'.

Jan
Feb 26, 2008



I maimed a finger tendon a month ago so I've been on a kneading break. But I came back to what I'd say is my best sourdough loaf so far.









My starter seems to have been growing more sour and the previous loaf was way too acidic and I hated it, so I used the double fed recipe from FWSY. It turned it out pretty okay.

Jan fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2019 around 22:31

Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010



Jan posted:

I maimed a finger tendon a month ago so I've been on a kneading break. But I came back to what I'd say is my best sourdough loaf so far.

:discoursechef:





My starter seems to have been growing more sour and the previous loaf was way too acidic and I hated it, so I used the double fed recipe from FWSY. It turned it out pretty okay.

That looks wonderful, especially the crust. I've been baking my sourdough in the dutch oven at 450 for 30 minutes, lid on for the first 10 minutes. The crust seems to come out really pale even though the interior is at 200 degrees. The crust also seems to fracture and throw shards all over the place when I go to cut it. What might I be loving up?

Thumposaurus
Jul 24, 2007



Edmond Dantes posted:

So I finally decided to :justbake: and tried following this recipe to make burger buns. Results were not spectacular but I think not terrible?



That's right out of the oven, after the second coat of butter while they were still hot. They look super undercooked in the picture, but I swear they look a bit better in person; they baked for 18 mins at 190C (375F); the bottom is quite brown so I don't think I undercooked them, but they don't look like the site's pictures

Anything I should be on the lookout for? I halved all measurements since I was only making 4 buns, but other than that I followed the recipe to a T. Let rise for 2 hours covered then ~50 mins after making the 4 separate 'buns'.

Did you eggwash them before baking?

JudgeX
Jul 22, 2007

What we do have in common is the fact that we're human.

Edmond Dantes posted:

So I finally decided to :justbake: and tried following this recipe to make burger buns. Results were not spectacular but I think not terrible?



That's right out of the oven, after the second coat of butter while they were still hot. They look super undercooked in the picture, but I swear they look a bit better in person; they baked for 18 mins at 190C (375F); the bottom is quite brown so I don't think I undercooked them, but they don't look like the site's pictures

Anything I should be on the lookout for? I halved all measurements since I was only making 4 buns, but other than that I followed the recipe to a T. Let rise for 2 hours covered then ~50 mins after making the 4 separate 'buns'.

they look too light for sure, color is flavor. that's a bake issue whatever you baked on was too conductive and the oven was too low.

if you like them then you did it right, other than that baking is a game of numbers, the more you do it the better you get

Edmond Dantes
Sep 12, 2007

Reactor: Online
Sensors: Online
Weapons: Online

ALL SYSTEMS NOMINAL


Thumposaurus posted:

Did you eggwash them before baking?

I butterwashed them (recipe said butter!).

JudgeX posted:

they look too light for sure, color is flavor. that's a bake issue whatever you baked on was too conductive and the oven was too low.

if you like them then you did it right, other than that baking is a game of numbers, the more you do it the better you get

Oven was smack at 190C (got an oven thermometer a while back so I go by that); could be a surface issue, I used the tray that came with the oven with baking paper on it since I don't have a proper baking sheet.

They're not bad, flavour-wise, but they do feel a bit... dense? They're not scone dense, but they're not proper bun spongy either.

plester1
Jul 9, 2004

I am NOT a merry man!

Edmond Dantes posted:

I butterwashed them (recipe said butter!).

From the recipe:

quote:

Brushing buns with melted butter will give them a soft, light golden crust. Brushing with an egg-white wash (1 egg white beaten with 1/4 cup water) will give them a shinier, darker crust. For seeded buns, brush with the egg wash; it'll make the seeds adhere. And, feel free to add the extra yolk to the dough, reserving the white for the wash.

The recipe photo shows seeded buns, so I presume they were egg washed.

Thumposaurus
Jul 24, 2007



Egg white only will make them shiny not necessarily darker. Egg yolk and milk will make them the darkest with egg yolk and water being in the middle.
Add a pinch of salt to your eggwash as well it will help break down the egg proteins so you don't have a lumpy egg wash.

Jan
Feb 26, 2008



Pham Nuwen posted:

That looks wonderful, especially the crust. I've been baking my sourdough in the dutch oven at 450 for 30 minutes, lid on for the first 10 minutes. The crust seems to come out really pale even though the interior is at 200 degrees. The crust also seems to fracture and throw shards all over the place when I go to cut it. What might I be loving up?

I couldn't say, I haven't experimented a lot with different variables! Might be lid-on duration, this particular one was 475F with lid on for 30 minutes. The recipes in FWSY have a little temperature variation (450-500) but he pretty much prescribes 30 minutes for all of them, followed by 15-30 minutes lid off until being dark brown.

JudgeX
Jul 22, 2007

What we do have in common is the fact that we're human.

Edmond Dantes posted:

I butterwashed them (recipe said butter!).


Oven was smack at 190C (got an oven thermometer a while back so I go by that); could be a surface issue, I used the tray that came with the oven with baking paper on it since I don't have a proper baking sheet.

They're not bad, flavour-wise, but they do feel a bit... dense? They're not scone dense, but they're not proper bun spongy either.

baking is hard as hell. no matter how descriptive anything is, the only time you actually learn anything about the craft is when the dough is in your hands. note the texture, tension, taste, smell, and look of the dough at every stage.

you're making an enriched dough, so it'll have a rich, tight, even crumb. it sounds like you nailed that but didn't maximize your rise. i'd guess you either overfermented or overproofed the batch.

Jimbozig
Sep 30, 2003

I like sharing and ice cream and animals.


Okay, so I have this rye sourdough starter that I've had and used for years. But this year we moved to a new house and then I got really busy for a few months and neglected it at the back of the fridge. I've had times when I've neglected this starter for that long before and it's been fine once I revived it. But this time it looks weird. It's covered in some lumpy slimy white stuff. So I wanted to get some outside opinions on whether this is dangerous and bad, or whether the good yeasts and bacteria just went crazy being left alone for so long and made this weird layer and it could potentially be revived. But it doesn't smell mouldy - it smells very strongly yeasty. Based on appearance it looks gross, but based on smell there's no problem at all. Here's a photo of it:



I know I could just make a new starter, but a) I've had back luck with countertop fermenting in this new house - my pickles and sodas have not thrived. And b) I have a sentimental attachment to this starter since I've been using it for so long.

I fully expect to be told that I'm being dumb and just look at it you idiot - throw it out and start over.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT HOW I GHOULISHLY CELEBRATE THE DEATH OF CHILDREN TO TEACH THEIR PARENTS "A LESSON"


Just feed it once and find out.

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

My starter's surface after not feeding it for a long weekend



BraveUlysses
Aug 7, 2002




Grimey Drawer

Pham Nuwen
Oct 30, 2010



Jimbozig posted:

Okay, so I have this rye sourdough starter that I've had and used for years. But this year we moved to a new house and then I got really busy for a few months and neglected it at the back of the fridge. I've had times when I've neglected this starter for that long before and it's been fine once I revived it. But this time it looks weird. It's covered in some lumpy slimy white stuff. So I wanted to get some outside opinions on whether this is dangerous and bad, or whether the good yeasts and bacteria just went crazy being left alone for so long and made this weird layer and it could potentially be revived. But it doesn't smell mouldy - it smells very strongly yeasty. Based on appearance it looks gross, but based on smell there's no problem at all. Here's a photo of it:



I know I could just make a new starter, but a) I've had back luck with countertop fermenting in this new house - my pickles and sodas have not thrived. And b) I have a sentimental attachment to this starter since I've been using it for so long.

I fully expect to be told that I'm being dumb and just look at it you idiot - throw it out and start over.

From what I've heard, as long as it's not covered in black mold you're probably ok? If I had a strong attachment to the starter I'd just take a small spoonful and use it to inoculate a fresh batch of flour & water.

Honestly it looks like if you took a whole jar of dried yeast granules and, like, misted it with water just enough to make things swell up.

Jimbozig
Sep 30, 2003

I like sharing and ice cream and animals.


Okay, well I just scooped off the top layer, took 4 oz from below and fed it a bunch of rye flour and water, so we'll see how it goes in a few days.

Chrysalis
Jun 1, 2004



Forgive me bread gods for I have sinned.

My starter was in the fridge about a month before I decided to get it out to warm up before feeding. And then I forgot it in a neglected corner of the kitchen for two more weeks. The top layer was slimy with dark mold, so I discarded down to the last 16 grams on the bottom of the jar, fed, and put it in my proofing box. It smells heavily like...rotten fruity pebbles, which I'm guessing are esters from the yeast being extremely stressed. I'm a terrible starter mom. Hopefully I can revive it

Edit: I have a lot of faith in the resilience of yeast/bacterial colonies. 17 hours after the first feeding, the starter got a decent 2x rise and was falling again. Still smells pretty stinky and a runny consistency.

After feeding 2 subsided, funky smell mostly gone and has much more substance. I’m sure it’ll recover after more feedings, but I won’t be baking anything with it for awhile until I’m sure all the yuck is bred out.

Chrysalis fucked around with this message at May 4, 2019 around 18:32

Boot and Rally
Apr 21, 2006

8===D


Nap Ghost

Hell Yeah posted:

probably one of the last ones i'll put out this year since i dont bake much bread in the summer:



This looks like the stuff I buy from a local baker. How do I make this?

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Hefty
Jun 11, 2008



Is my starter okay?

It's about a week old, 100% hydration. I started feeding it every 12 hours after the first couple days, but it's been about 24 hours since its last feeding and it did this? I don't know if you can tell from the picture but it's got a layer of kind of crusty, dried bubbles.

Should I scoop it off? Toss the whole batch? Mix it in?

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