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blixa
Jan 9, 2006

Kein bestandteil sein

I made some 80% hydration baguettes over the weekend. So drat good, the girlfriend and I ate two on Saturday and two on Sunday.

Proofing



Finished product



Crumb shot

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guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

I know no-knead bread is normally made in a Dutch oven, but would I enjoy any -- not all -- of the benefits if I make regular bread the regular way, and just bake it in the Dutch oven?

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Yes. The big advantages of baking in a Dutch oven are that the cast iron holds heat well and when you bake it with the lid on you trap steam which keeps the crust from setting too early for your bread to expand. That holds true for any bread you are baking, regardless of the mixing method.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

Awesome, thanks. I'll give it a go next time.

therattle
Jul 24, 2007

I'm a family man - I run a family business. This is my son and my partner, H.W.


Soiled Meat

mich posted:

Yes. The big advantages of baking in a Dutch oven are that the cast iron holds heat well and when you bake it with the lid on you trap steam which keeps the crust from setting too early for your bread to expand. That holds true for any bread you are baking, regardless of the mixing method.

Indeed. I bought a La Cloche dome for this, which is awesome.

the42ndtourist
Sep 6, 2004

A half-dead thing in the stark, dead world, clean mad for the muck called gold

mich posted:

Yes. The big advantages of baking in a Dutch oven are that the cast iron holds heat well and when you bake it with the lid on you trap steam which keeps the crust from setting too early for your bread to expand. That holds true for any bread you are baking, regardless of the mixing method.

I just started using the dutch oven and I love love love the loaves it turns out.

I'll try this question here, since the one time I asked in the homebrew thread I got essentially no help: I hear that lots of homebrewers throw some of their spent grain into bread, but the way I grind my malt is way too coarse. When I tried tossing some spent malt into a loaf it was not pleasant due to the barley husks being ~70% intact, which meant that the loaf was full of hard, sharp, scratchy bits.

So on the weekend, I skimmed some spent barley before I tossed the rest out, and then dried it out to try and mill it down. Wasn't really successful as without the meat of the grain inside the husk, the husks just collapse down and run through the mill without being broken. What can I do to make the barley work in bread? Does anybody else use spent grain in bread? How is yours different from mine?

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

I don't really understand how you guys fit no-knead bread into your schedules. To me it's harder than just making normal bread.

Say I go for the full 18-hour first rise. For a given baking time I have to start at -20 hours (basically, +4, then back a day), which means second stage at about -2, and the bread is out of the oven around +1, and cool enough to cut and eat around +2.

So say I want to eat (+2) at 6:30. That would have meant being home to bake at about 4:30, when I'm still at work, and home to start the second rise 2 hours earlier, around 2:30. If I eat any earlier then I have to be home even earlier in my workday. If I get home at 5:15, which I usually do and which is common to a 9-5 sort of schedule, if I start immediately it's two hours for the rise (7:15) plus an hour to bake (8:15) and an hour to cool (9:15). I don't want to be eating dinner at 9:15pm.

Say I go for the opposite extreme, and do the low end at 12 hours for the first rise. That actually becomes harder if I want to serve bread with dinner, because it means being up at 5:00 or 5:15 in the morning. And I have the same problem when I get home from work.

If I want to just bake in the morning, before work, when I get up, I have to allot 4 hours (2 to rise again, 1 to bake, 1 to cool). I get up earlier than I have to for work, but even that two hours is about half the time I'd need.

The only thing I can see working is finishing at night, after dinner, and just having it for the next day or whatever. Is that what you guys do? These schedules are doable on the weekend, I guess?

therattle
Jul 24, 2007

I'm a family man - I run a family business. This is my son and my partner, H.W.


Soiled Meat

guppy posted:

I don't really understand how you guys fit no-knead bread into your schedules. To me it's harder than just making normal bread.

Say I go for the full 18-hour first rise. For a given baking time I have to start at -20 hours (basically, +4, then back a day), which means second stage at about -2, and the bread is out of the oven around +1, and cool enough to cut and eat around +2.

So say I want to eat (+2) at 6:30. That would have meant being home to bake at about 4:30, when I'm still at work, and home to start the second rise 2 hours earlier, around 2:30. If I eat any earlier then I have to be home even earlier in my workday. If I get home at 5:15, which I usually do and which is common to a 9-5 sort of schedule, if I start immediately it's two hours for the rise (7:15) plus an hour to bake (8:15) and an hour to cool (9:15). I don't want to be eating dinner at 9:15pm.

Say I go for the opposite extreme, and do the low end at 12 hours for the first rise. That actually becomes harder if I want to serve bread with dinner, because it means being up at 5:00 or 5:15 in the morning. And I have the same problem when I get home from work.

If I want to just bake in the morning, before work, when I get up, I have to allot 4 hours (2 to rise again, 1 to bake, 1 to cool). I get up earlier than I have to for work, but even that two hours is about half the time I'd need.

The only thing I can see working is finishing at night, after dinner, and just having it for the next day or whatever. Is that what you guys do? These schedules are doable on the weekend, I guess?

I mix first thing, bake at night, eat the next day.

Ishamael
Feb 18, 2004

You don't have to love me, but you will respect me.

guppy posted:

I don't really understand how you guys fit no-knead bread into your schedules. To me it's harder than just making normal bread.

The dough is in the fridge all week, I grab a pound of it whenever I want to bake, let it rise for 60-80 mins, then bake for 25. I get home from work at 5:30 - 6, we can be eating bread at 7:30 when my wife gets home.

Also, "cool enough to cut and eat"? You mean there are people who can let the bread cool all the way before eating it? I cannot resist it, that is when it is the best. Hot bread fresh out of the oven, served maybe with a beef stew or pasta and meatballs...Mmmmmm.

EDIT: Even when we don't eat it hot, it's pretty easy. I make the dough on Sundays, it sits in the fridge all week (the NK version I make can sit in the fridge for up to 9 days). I make new loaves every couple days in the evening for the next day's meals.

Ishamael fucked around with this message at Apr 16, 2015 around 13:27

TenKindsOfCrazy
Aug 11, 2010

Tell me a story with my pudding and tea.


guppy posted:

I don't really understand how you guys fit no-knead bread into your schedules. To me it's harder than just making normal bread.

You're overthinking no-knead. It's a very forgiving, flexible dough. I find it's fine with an 8-hour rise, and fine with a 16-hour rise. Like Ishamael says you can make a ton, keep it in the fridge and bake a bit every day if you like. No-knead is the furthest thing from an exact science as baking gets!

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012

People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


The hard part can be getting it to rise. I tried to make some in November...too cold, no dice.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

Hm. When you keep it in the fridge, do you let it ferment on the counter for the 12 hours plus or minus 10 hours or whatever and then refrigerate? Or do you just stick it in the fridge right away? What do you do when you take it out of the fridge? If I have to wait several hours for it to warm then the "just grab a bit from the fridge" instant-gratification aspect starts to look difficult to achieve. I'm not sure I fully understand how to integrate the refrigerator into the process.

I had similar questions the other day when I tried rising normal bread in the fridge -- I left it on the counter for like an hour because I had time in the morning, then stuck it in the fridge, and when I baked it I let it rise again for a little over an hour and it worked in that I got tasty bread, but it didn't expand nearly as much as I'd have liked and the resulting loaf was smaller and more dense than usual. I used a full 2 1/4 oz envelope of instant yeast, too, knowing the fridge would retard its growth.

SymmetryrtemmyS
Jul 13, 2013

I got super tired of seeing your avatar throwing those fuckin' glasses around in the astrology thread so I fixed it to a .jpg

guppy posted:

Hm. When you keep it in the fridge, do you let it ferment on the counter for the 12 hours plus or minus 10 hours or whatever and then refrigerate? Or do you just stick it in the fridge right away? What do you do when you take it out of the fridge? If I have to wait several hours for it to warm then the "just grab a bit from the fridge" instant-gratification aspect starts to look difficult to achieve. I'm not sure I fully understand how to integrate the refrigerator into the process.

I had similar questions the other day when I tried rising normal bread in the fridge -- I left it on the counter for like an hour because I had time in the morning, then stuck it in the fridge, and when I baked it I let it rise again for a little over an hour and it worked in that I got tasty bread, but it didn't expand nearly as much as I'd have liked and the resulting loaf was smaller and more dense than usual. I used a full 2 1/4 oz envelope of instant yeast, too, knowing the fridge would retard its growth.

Stick it on the counter for a while, then toss the whole mess in the fridge once it's doubled in size. Cut off a hunk and toss with in the oven. No warming up needed.

The mistake you made was retarding the fermentation too soon. Let it fully ferment, and then fridge. That way, you get delicious flavor (from the retarded period in the fridge) and great texture.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

Hm, okay, I'll try that, thanks. This was normal bread, not no-knead, and Mark Bittman led me to believe that I could slow-rise in the fridge over 8 to 12 hours -- he didn't say anything specific about letting it rise outside the fridge, I think it was suggesting doing the entire rise there to slow it down -- and then pulling it out, shaping, rising, and baking. I figured a second rise would need at least an hour. But it's cold so I thought it would need more than that. But, the whole point -- besides flavor -- was to fit it to my schedule by rising at work, so if it takes much more than that, the benefit is lost.

If no-knead is that forgiving it might work out better. If you're doing the "pull out as much as you need" thing then I'm assuming you're making small amounts like rolls, certainly less than a whole loaf's worth, or else you're getting 1 to 2 loaves out of it.

SymmetryrtemmyS
Jul 13, 2013

I got super tired of seeing your avatar throwing those fuckin' glasses around in the astrology thread so I fixed it to a .jpg

guppy posted:

Hm, okay, I'll try that, thanks. This was normal bread, not no-knead, and Mark Bittman led me to believe that I could slow-rise in the fridge over 8 to 12 hours -- he didn't say anything specific about letting it rise outside the fridge, I think it was suggesting doing the entire rise there to slow it down -- and then pulling it out, shaping, rising, and baking. I figured a second rise would need at least an hour. But it's cold so I thought it would need more than that. But, the whole point -- besides flavor -- was to fit it to my schedule by rising at work, so if it takes much more than that, the benefit is lost.

If no-knead is that forgiving it might work out better. If you're doing the "pull out as much as you need" thing then I'm assuming you're making small amounts like rolls, certainly less than a whole loaf's worth, or else you're getting 1 to 2 loaves out of it.

I make a big Cambro full and get 3-4 loaves along with a bunch of rolls and so on. I like wrapping sausage chunks in dough and baking them for a while, sometimes. Quick things like that.

Bittman's method relies on higher amounts of yeast for faster fermentation, if I am thinking of the right one, and won't give you the same flavor. With my method, either use a preferment or a tiny pinch of yeast. You want the countertop rise to be perfect after approximately overnight.

Ishamael
Feb 18, 2004

You don't have to love me, but you will respect me.

guppy posted:



If no-knead is that forgiving it might work out better. If you're doing the "pull out as much as you need" thing then I'm assuming you're making small amounts like rolls, certainly less than a whole loaf's worth, or else you're getting 1 to 2 loaves out of it.

The recipe I use has about 3 or 4 one-pound loaves in it, or 2-3 bigger ones.

The one I followed was:

32 oz. AP flour
3 c. warm water
1.5 Tbsp yeast
1 Tbsp salt

Mix until a wet sticky dough is created, place in large bowl and let rise for 2-3 hrs. Cover, place in refrigerator for 2 hrs (up to 9 days).

When you're ready to bake, sprinkle the dough with flour, pull off 16-19 oz. dough, form into loaf or boule, place on parchment.

Preheat oven and baking stone to 450 (I have had better luck with 500), let dough rise 60-80 mins. Place a pan on the bottom rack under the stone. Slice the bread with a knife and dust with flour.

Place parchment and dough onto stone, add 1 c. water to the pan, bake 25 mins.

EDIT:

I just made 2 mini loaves today!

Ishamael fucked around with this message at Apr 19, 2015 around 14:40

Ishamael
Feb 18, 2004

You don't have to love me, but you will respect me.

Double-postin' to ask a storage question.

So I make these loaves that I really enjoy, they have a nice crackly crust and a soft interior. But then I am unsure of how to best keep them. If I leave a loaf out, it gets stale and hard, and if I put it in a bag the humidity makes the crust soft and chewy. It's not bad, but it is so much nicer when the crust is still crispy.

How do you guys store your fresh bread?

PatMarshall
Apr 6, 2009



Try slicing and freezing your bread - you can take out a slice as needed and revive in the toaster or oven.

Ishamael
Feb 18, 2004

You don't have to love me, but you will respect me.

PatMarshall posted:

Try slicing and freezing your bread - you can take out a slice as needed and revive in the toaster or oven.

Well if I am toasting the bread then it doesn't really matter, what I'm looking for is whether there is a way to maintain that initial balance of crusty outside and chewy inside.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

Slicing and freezing like PatMarshall said is what I do. If you don't want to freeze then basically all you can do is store it on the counter in a Ziploc, cut end down, and hope for the best, which probably won't be good enough.

For toast you can toast directly out of the freezer; for regular bread you can warm in the oven at 200-250 degrees for a little while.

Megasabin
Sep 9, 2003

I get half!!

I recently started making bread, and I have two questions.

1. The bread I make tends to have the inside too densely packed for my liking. I'd like something where the inside is spongy and soft, instead of tightly packed like white bread. How do I accomplish this? Ideally I'd like something that looks like Ishamel's pictures on the previous page.

2. How long can dough be stored in the refrigerator (not freezer)?

therattle
Jul 24, 2007

I'm a family man - I run a family business. This is my son and my partner, H.W.


Soiled Meat

Megasabin posted:

I recently started making bread, and I have two questions.

1. The bread I make tends to have the inside too densely packed for my liking. I'd like something where the inside is spongy and soft, instead of tightly packed like white bread. How do I accomplish this? Ideally I'd like something that looks like Ishamel's pictures on the previous page.

2. How long can dough be stored in the refrigerator (not freezer)?

1. Longer ferment with a bit less yeast, plus higher hydration.
2. Dunno. Up to a week?

Obligatory Toast
Mar 19, 2007

What am I reading here??

Scrot Eel posted:

I've tried two different methods of the no-knead recipe and I'm still undecided on which one works best. I used to only do the Lahey method, of preheating the oven and dutch oven before putting in the dough. Recently, I've started doing the Cook's Illustrated version of putting the dough into a cold oven and dutch oven and cooking from there.

Has anyone done any testing against these two methods? I'm thinking the cold oven method seems to be a bit more airy and bubbly. It's been a while since I've tried the hot oven method, mainly because I kept burning myself on my tall dutch oven when dropping in the dough . Here's the Cook's recipe, if anyone wants to try it. I really like the addition of vinegar and beer. Even in such small amounts, it really does boost the flavor.
I considered doing this today, but I actually don't have any lagers in the house, so instead I'm doing the 24-hr sourdough recipe they have in that same issue, but instead of using nothing but AP flour I'm doing about a quarter AP, half bread flour, quarter rye. I've done it before in December, and the loaves were amaaaaazing.

I'm gonna try the anadama bread next. I bought some blue cornmeal I wanna try with it.

Obligatory Toast
Mar 19, 2007

What am I reading here??

24 hours later, drat near perfection (slight overrise on my part - they sat on a 500 f oven for 30 min, oops)


Bronze
Aug 9, 2006

DRRRAAINAGE!!!

repeat of my first forkish bread baking attempt but now with a bit more experience. just a white flour poolish bread. i'd like to bake them darker but i've got a small oven and can't set the rack high enough to avoid bottom burning. ah well.


mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Ishamael posted:

Well if I am toasting the bread then it doesn't really matter, what I'm looking for is whether there is a way to maintain that initial balance of crusty outside and chewy inside.

Sadly there isn't a way to get back that crusty outside without reheating, and if your bread is sliced, the inside will toast. You can try wrapping the slices in foil except for the crust but it still won't be quite the same. If your bread is a large boule, consider shaping it into 3 or so baguettes instead. Then you can wrap and freeze the whole baguettes, and when you reheat each one, none of the inside is being exposed to radiant heat to get toasted up.

Obligatory Toast
Mar 19, 2007

What am I reading here??

Bronze posted:

repeat of my first forkish bread baking attempt but now with a bit more experience. just a white flour poolish bread. i'd like to bake them darker but i've got a small oven and can't set the rack high enough to avoid bottom burning. ah well.




Whaddup Bonavita buddy.

Slanderer
May 6, 2007

i'm not mad,
this is actually funny to me


Soiled Meat

So I picked up a good IR thermometer and confirmed that my oven is thermostat is way off at higher temperatures. I thought it was only ~25 degrees too high, but it is at least 50 off, maybe more. Any thoughts on where/how I should be measuring my oven temperature to determine my offsets? I have a perpetually-empty baking pan on my bottom shelf to block direct heat, and my baking stone on my middle-top rack. Should I just preheat my oven with the stone in it for an hour or so and use the highest temperature on the stone (since the side closest to the oven door might be 25 or more degrees cooler than the far side)?

Bronze
Aug 9, 2006

DRRRAAINAGE!!!

Obligatory Toast posted:

Whaddup Bonavita buddy.

too bad it doesn't hold temps lower than 140f. would be handy for bread.

Ishamael
Feb 18, 2004

You don't have to love me, but you will respect me.

mich posted:

Sadly there isn't a way to get back that crusty outside without reheating, and if your bread is sliced, the inside will toast. You can try wrapping the slices in foil except for the crust but it still won't be quite the same. If your bread is a large boule, consider shaping it into 3 or so baguettes instead. Then you can wrap and freeze the whole baguettes, and when you reheat each one, none of the inside is being exposed to radiant heat to get toasted up.

That was exactly my question, thanks for the answer! I will give it a try and see how it goes.

Cymbal Monkey
Apr 16, 2009

Lift Your Little Paws Like Antennas to Heaven!


I've been making this sourdough as my standard for a couple months now and I'm incredibly happy with it. The four day timetable looks daunting but it's actually surprisingly little work, just start Thursday night and bake Sunday to fit it into a work or school week. Everyone should try this. It's got a great tang to it and a super satisfying, chewy crumb that toasts up beautifully.

Every time I've tried their baking heats it's come out far too dark, edging on burnt. I bake this at 200C on a granite stone for 40 minutes and get excellent results.

Cymbal Monkey fucked around with this message at May 10, 2015 around 00:06

PatMarshall
Apr 6, 2009



That looks amazing!

I really like that site for their very clear formulas. They work great as is, but I'm tempted to boost the hydration a bit as I'm using KA flour which can supposedly handle more hydration than European flour and my crumb isn't quite as creamy as I would like. As for the temps, i generally go pretty high (500 F preheat, 450 F bake), but I'm also using a dutch oven rather than a stone. The results are on the dark side, but I think that's the trend these days (at least that's what Chad seems to be going for in Tartine).

Cymbal Monkey
Apr 16, 2009

Lift Your Little Paws Like Antennas to Heaven!


One way in which I sometimes modify it is I leave the starter (not the starter starter, but the rye and wheat starter you first make in the recipe) in the fridge an extra 24 hours, which results in a slightly less active final proofing and a slightly denser loaf, but really ups the sourness wonderfully. My local lactobacillus really isn't the most impressive, and I grew up eating San Francisco sourdough that would make your mouth pucker almost, so I find that extra day really helps build up acid.

Ishamael
Feb 18, 2004

You don't have to love me, but you will respect me.

I am not sure if this will be interesting to anyone, but I figure that pictures are always good when it comes to food. So here are some photos of the steps of the no-knead bread I made yesterday.

Here is the rough dough, it's a 75% hydration dough that is just flour, water, yeast and salt.


The first rise is on the counter, here it is after about an hour.


I keep it covered with another one of these old timey enameled bowls.


But sometimes it rises enough to start moving the bowls! (this was at the end of the rise, about 3 hours)


Then it goes into the fridge for a minimum of 2 hours, usually overnight. It can stay there for up to a week or so. When it comes out it has fallen some.


But the gluten production is off the charts.


I grab about a pound of dough and put it on some parchment.


Let it rise about 80 minutes, then sprinkle with some flour and score.


And bake on a hot pizza stone at 500 F for 25 minutes. (I add a cup of water to a pan under the stone too)


It's delicious!

Cymbal Monkey
Apr 16, 2009

Lift Your Little Paws Like Antennas to Heaven!


I can never get those great looking score marks I see on artisan loaves, where it's like a fissure ripping through the loaf, I always end up with a glossy, stretched looking portion. Here's the closest to a real rip I've gotten, usually slashing 1.5-2cm down.

Slanderer
May 6, 2007

i'm not mad,
this is actually funny to me


Soiled Meat

Cymbal Monkey posted:

I can never get those great looking score marks I see on artisan loaves, where it's like a fissure ripping through the loaf, I always end up with a glossy, stretched looking portion. Here's the closest to a real rip I've gotten, usually slashing 1.5-2cm down.



Are you using a water pan in your oven?

Cymbal Monkey
Apr 16, 2009

Lift Your Little Paws Like Antennas to Heaven!


Slanderer posted:

Are you using a water pan in your oven?

Yep, 2 cups of warm water in a tray on the floor of the oven, but often I let the steam escape about 10 minutes into baking.

Cymbal Monkey fucked around with this message at May 11, 2015 around 17:37

Nooner
Mar 26, 2007

AN A+ POSTER (:

how do I make bread?


I WORK IN AN OFFICE!! (Get it? cause bread also means money sometimes!)

therattle
Jul 24, 2007

I'm a family man - I run a family business. This is my son and my partner, H.W.


Soiled Meat

Nooner posted:

how do I make bread?


I WORK IN AN OFFICE!! (Get it? cause bread also means money sometimes!)

Wow. You came up with that joke all by yourself? You should be very proud of yourself. I can hardly stop laughing long enough to reply!

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unterdude
Oct 16, 2004

i'm gay


therattle posted:

Wow. You came up with that joke all by yourself? You should be very proud of yourself. I can hardly stop laughing long enough to reply!

Could you hypothetically make bread though, in an office setting? Would toaster ovens be able to thoroughly bake? And do fluorescent lights negatively impact yeast culture growth?

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