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Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Thumposaurus posted:

There's a Tuscan bread that I used to make at the old bakery I worked at that didn't use salt in it.

I think that is the trademark of Tuscan bread in general, that and being a bit stale I think?

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Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


dad. posted:

if you retard the loaf for any amount of time after forming, the crust will have blisters which might be pretty on a sourdough, but not really what you're aiming for in challah. If anything, prove it to the point where it would go in the oven, egg wash it, and freeze it. Bake it for a longer period of time at a slightly lower temperature. the loaf will shrink a little in the freezer due to thermal expansion, but it will rebound.

Defrost before baking, or straight in an oven?

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


dad. posted:

The process would go:
1. Finish forming. first egg wash.
2. Prove to baking volume, second egg wash, place in freezer.
3. Freeze until egg wash is dry and loaf is cold/firm (doesn't necessarily mean frozen solid), wrap in plastic, store for no more than a week.
4. remove from freezer and place in preheated oven

This is all contingent on using good, not old yeast.

Thanks!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


I may have an ever so slight accent..

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Black Griffon posted:

Apparently I need to get my Danish friend to say things to my phone. What we're you trying to say?
'Remember the bread'

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


An open letter to mindphlux! (because the cheap bastard doesn't have PM's)

Everything I know about bread!

The order of the ingredients doesn't really matter, if only you remember this...
You're working with two different elements - your yeast and your gluten - both of which are important for the formation of a proper loaf, bun, whatever...

Yeast is alive, and needs to be active.. If you're using dry yeast, then activate it - add a splash of lukewarm water to the yeast, and then add a tablespoon of sugar - mix it, and look at it untill it starts bubbling happily away (unless you can't be bothered to wait that long - which is about 10 minutes!!!) then just mix it thoroughly and let it liquify.

If you're working with active yeast, then drop a block of yeast into the standmixer and add a tablespoon of sugar to it, and turn the standmixer on, and then go away for a while - when you return the yeast will have liquified, and that means that it is active like hell..

Drop your flour on top of that... Different flours have different gluten contents, the less gluten there is in a flour, the longer you have to knead.

I usually use 60-100% durum (which shouldn't be possible according to some).

Add your water, and add about a little handfull of salt (don't be stingy with the salt).

There you have your basic bread - this recipe is about :

50g of active yeast or 1 package of dry yeast
30g sugar
1kg flour
30g salt

Hydrate as you wish..

But what about the gluten formation?

Well - here is the deal with the gluten formation...

Do not add your coarser material to the bread from the start - whole grains, nuts, raisins or whatever, actually get in the way of the formation of gluten - meaning that they act as some sort of inhibitor..

The way that you do it is by first kneading the hell out of the dough (with your standmixer) until it gets a shiny surface - this means that not only has everything been hydrated, but by now it has actually developed the gluten, it will take about 5 minutes on low on your standmixer. The window-paning thing has always confused me, because I think window-paning happens earlier than optimal gluten formation, and misleads a lot of people into thinking that they're done before they actually are....

Then you can add your bran of choice to the bread, and let it knead in for a couple of minutes, or until it has spread evenly through the bread.

Also - Salt - salt makes a difference to not only the taste, but also the texture of the dough - I think it helps in the formation of gluten, but dough with salt is much more pliable and springs easier back when pressed than dough without salt..

Anyways - you're looking for gluten!

Shiny surface = gluten!

Also - the dough will collect on the hook more at the end of kneading, so just because it looks like it is a sloppy mess at the beginning, doesn't mean that it will end out like that!

Hydration
All the water that you add to your bread should be lukewarm (37*c up to 42*c, but just hold your hand under, and if it doesn't scald you, and doesn't make you freeze your fingers, it is about right - if it only is 25*c it doesn't really make any difference, because it will still do what it has to do, only slower)...

So how do you know how hydrated your dough is??

You look into the bowl!

If, after 2 or 3 minutes, the dough is collecting on the hook, but is still sticking to a larger area of the bottom, but not the sides of the bowl - you're at 80%, which is about as hydrated as you want it to be.

If it lets go of the bottom of the bowl when you lift the hook out, then you're around 50%, which can be ok, if your dough has a lot of butter in it..

Smaller sticking to the bottom of the bowl is around 65-70%.

(And you can also hear it... but that is a different story, and not scientific in any way)

Taste
Now.. we're talking pure bread! Not with additives, which can be fun, good and general win the heart and minds of lesser persons.

But for pure bread!

Yeast is farting a lot of good stuff out into your dough, the gas for the rise, but also estere - which is a good thing about yeast...

Estere can taste of anything from rotten animal flesh to bananas - in general the estere of tame yeast tastes like.. bread!

So the more bready a flavor you want - the worse conditions you give your yeast!

This means - cut back on the yeast - and then let it rise slowly under harsh conditions... Shout at it in German while you're at it, to make it feel mistreated, because that will cause the yeast to piss itself, and that is what you want!

What I am saying is...

Use 1/50th of the yeast in the recipe above, use cold water and use time... Then the yeast will develop a more bready flavour..

You can do the first rise, and then knock it back and put it in the fridge - I've done that as an experiment, and the bready flavour improves until day 5, then it starts deteriorating, and at day 8 it is nigh unedible..

(I did this by creating the same dough - exact measures, same batch of flour, same batch of yeast (had bought a kilo of active yeast in one package), every day for 8 days, let them rise at the same temperature (in the oven at 40*) for the first rise, for the same time, and then I put them in my fridge to store.

I took them out at the same day, with 25 minute intervals, and let them reactivate on the kitchen counter in the same way (couldn't do the exact same placement)

Baked them in the same oven at the same temperature for 20 minutes (then 5 minutes for the oven to get completely temperature stable again), and sat them on the counter till they were all room temperature (here - I am assuming that resting time doesn't impact too much)..

Day 5 is best!)

Moistness
Moistness is not the same as hydration - the moistness (and how long the bread will keep) can come from a lot of stuff...

Carrots are good for keeping the bread moist for longer periods of time (just add a couple of hundred grams of grated carrot to the dough before kneading)

Oatmeal is good for the same (make a couple of bowls worth of oatmeal, and replace flour with it)

Grated squash is good for keeping moist

and...

Fats (oils, margerine, whatever).

So how about shaping?
Stretch and fold, because all of your strands of gluten are bunched up after using a machine... not really an issue, but some people like the look of something that has been stretched and folded a few times..

Use baskets for rising (if you want) or let them rise under a wet side cloth. Alternatively you can brush them with milk constantly, but if you've done everything else right they will get a somewhat mutated surface look during the rise.

Finally... bake them - use a stone if you swing that way (but do it at high heat then) or use a plate if that is your preference... I ususally swing back and forth, and use a stone, with bursts of steam in the oven (I just pour in about half a cup of boiling hot water, not that loving ice-cube thing, because I want a lot of steam, and I want it now - not waiting around foppishly while drinking tea and looking at melting ice)..

Steam right at the beginning and again at 3-5 minutes in..

The taste of your steam doesn't matter - I have tried some pretty hefty stuff, and it really doesn't make a difference, unless you go to extremes (how the gently caress do I get this fucker to taste of anything that I steam with??? Let's try a teaspoon of ammonia).. Not recommendable, but your oven gets really clean, and so does your sinuses.

All of the above is true for whichever kind of bread that you want to bake - the rest is just in the shaping and the namecalling of them, and sourdough is really only about getting othere estere, and some sourness into the bread too..

Edit: for content - this just came out of the oven

Happy Hat fucked around with this message at Oct 19, 2012 around 13:27

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


I sometimes use whole wheat for the more rustic taste of it, the coarseness is a good match for the coarser pates and rillettes I think.

I also use the coarser flours for starters, not sure why, outside of that is how my dad does it, and that's how he was taught during his apprenticeship in the 50's, but that is primarily rye..

Finally I use it to smuggle a bit of fiber into the kids diet (well, I basically only use the coarser flours there).

I would assume that the enzymes, or whatever, doesn't make a difference when you're using a process that only takes a couple of hours?

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Depends on your definition of 'nice'.

For a really neat and nice crust you need steam at the start, then going to dry and high heat!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Potato breads are fukken AWESOME!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Yesterday I discovered that using a 40:40:10:10 - tipo 00:garlic/horseradish mashed potatoes:rye:corn flour makes for an amazing pizza dough.

The corn flour was used for rolling and dusting! Hydration around 65%

The crusts were the thinnest I've ever made (and I make mine thin). The hardest part was keeping them from tearing! Wife stated that I might want to write down the recipe (she thinks that I write stuff down, but that would be counterintuitive).

A 60:40 flour:mash makes for an amazing bread too (you asked rattle).

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


The reason for my discovery was that I didn't have enough tipo 00, and I was all out of durum too.. I need to go shopping!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Leper Residue posted:

So the last two nights I've tried to make bread using the NY Times recipe and my dough just won't rise.

The first night, I just threw the flour, salt and yeast in a bowl and then the water and mixed it. The second, I tried mixing the yeast with the water first.

I used two cups whole wheat flour and one cup regular flour. What obvious thing am I doing wrong? Is it the wheat flour?

Edit: I used half a teaspoon of yeast the second night.

Maybe you killed the yeast with salt?

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Leper Residue posted:

I was using active dry yeast, with cold tap water. It sat around 15 hours, with nothing.

I'll try again tonight with room temperature water, more yeast and regular flour. I'll test the yeast first too before I waste more flour.

Also, should I use iodized salt or kosher? I don't think we even have any iodized in the place.

Just use salt-flavored salt!

After 15 hours something should have happened regardless of the amounts of yeast!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Babby's first completely own dogma bread (no recipes)



I told her to hand-knead to get a feeling of the dough..



A lot of kneading happened, also some patting...

She wanted to braid it - braided it became





And then she baked it...



My only participation in this was to walk through the process with her before hand, to instruct her in what the things should feel like and telling her about the motions she should use when kneading...

It was ok for a first attempt.

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Tomorrow she will get to operate the standmixer, as she has understood the formation of gluten.

I will also have her wash out the gluten from some dough, and have her bake it to see what oven-spring is all about (that is how dad taught me, that is how I'm gonna teach my daughter.. also banjos).

We're having fun!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Choadmaster posted:

Sounds awesome. I cook with my friend's kids fairly often, because that's one of the few things her daughter and I both enjoy doing; but even then it often turns into "What, it's going to take more than ten seconds to make this whipped cream? *Hands bowl to Choadmaster.* Tell me when it's ready..."

You should do some Youtube videos like Leroy Diplowski does in the candy thread. I don't know anything about breadmaking and it sounds like you know how to teach it! (Mostly kidding; spend the time with your daughter and not us goons!)

The language barrier would be insuperable...

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Dr. Klas posted:

Tell us more about this! How is this done and what is the end result supposed to be?

Doing it right now - will post pictures when we're done!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Gluten experiment... what is oven spring about really?

This is enough dough for one(1) bun. Standard dough - kneaded for 5 minutes on the machine until gluten formation was satisfactory, after first rise.



Let's wash it... When you wash a dough, some of it is water soluble (well - I don't know about soluble, but some of it for sure isn't)..



We first hand wash it, so she can get a feeling for the gluten in her fingers...

After having felt that some of the dough gets washed away, and some of it doesn't we continue to wash it under a running fosset in a fine mesh sieve.



After the water runs clear, and for a while longer, because it is fun, we end up with the gluten..



So here's a size reference - there's no air in the gluten what so ever right now...


(Thanks for the cookies dino!!) The size of the cookie is a bit larger than a quarter - I would have compared it to a dollar bill, but my emergency lap-dance money is at work right now.

We then bake it at 240*c for about 17 minutes and get this...



.. money shot of the 'bun'.



The consistency of gluten is somewhat like the consistency of well-chewed gum, with a high hydration... it is more firm than egg-white, but it is snot like in consistency.

You can achieve the same by chewing freshly harvested small grain for a while, then you get 'farmers chewing gum' which basically is gluten (I think).

This is how oven spring works I think (also expansion of gas at heat - but...??)

Happy Hat fucked around with this message at Dec 28, 2012 around 14:05

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


And here's the finished product of her lesson today...

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


me your dad posted:

I'm super jealous of your steel countertops.

Thanks - I love them too.. Also they're cheaper than granite...

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Choadmaster posted:

About those "buns" (thanks for the writeup!) were they for educational purposes only or are they something worth eating? Your description of the texture did not sound appealing.
It got eaten - it tastes like... hmm.. nothing really. It's almost pure protein, and is reminscent of egg-white in taste.

Texturewise it is really interesting actually, it gets crunchy when baked, and it could be used as a good receptacle for other tastes - it is extremely fluffy, so I guess it could be easily stuffed with ice-cream for profiteroles, or with jams, or even savoury stuff.

Choadmaster posted:

Fwiw, I didn't even realize you weren't a native English speaker; your English is certainly better than mine (archaic "fosset" [faucet] notwithstanding ). Forums search seems to indicate you're Danish - and the product of a tragic supermarket discount purchase. I would never have known.

Ahh.. my reading at times leaks into my writing. No worries, I've started Italian now, so I foresee a lot of handgestures and genital touching in the future. (also thanks)

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Result of todays lesson


Still - not touched by me!

So proud!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Vagueabond posted:

It is how you make seitan; tempeh involves fermenting soybeans and growing a mycelium to fill the gaps in the 'brick'. Neither is terribly difficult, but seitan is wheat and tempeh is soy.

Actually you're both wrong...

It is the authenticated eductational method for 9yr girls of what gluten is, and what it's properties are.

She does not know what either tempeh nor seitan is, the latter did however spark some interesting thoughts about God and the purpose of life in general. Also why people would name a food 'Satan'.

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Focacce with steeped dried rosemary, the oil from tomato confit, and the tomatoes too...

100% durum.

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Also school buns for the kids..


Standard carrot buns with pumpkin and sunflower seeds

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


FishBulb posted:

I have done it in the past because I assumed I was supposed to but it didn't seem to make much of a difference so I stopped.

Well - you can sift flour for really fine bread - but it is not really something that I think is worth doing

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


coop52 posted:

I tried baking my first loaf today, using this recipe http://chickensintheroad.com/cooking/grandmother-bread/ , and it didn't turn out very well.



I mixed the dough, kneaded it until it was smooth, and let it rise for an hour and a half or so. I shaped the dough and put it in a Pyrex dish (don't have a loaf pan or stone or anything) and put it in the oven on 180C for 20 minutes. My oven isn't a real oven; it's a microwave/convection oven combo. The top crust turned out really nice, but the bottom was still really runny, so I flipped it over and put it back in for another 10 minutes on 180C. I let it cool on a rack for 45 minutes before I cut it.


What do you think went wrong?

Your oven sucks!

Also - did you just deflate it, and then straight in the oven it went?

Also - temperature - 180 is too low, 200 is better 220 even more so.

Also - time - with that temperature you should probably be looking at something like 40 minutes..

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


axolotl farmer posted:

If your oven only heats from above, it's going to be very difficult to get your bread to bake evenly.

Hmm - unless there's a chicken spit...

That would actually be an interesting thing to try out at home..

Spit roasted bread - in the oven!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Devoyniche posted:

Can you replace most of or all of the liquid (excluding the water you use for proofing your yeast) in your bread with another liquid (like beer) without any ill effects or would it get too beery as it ferments?

Yes, yes you can!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


unixbeard posted:

Why does my sourdough keep exploding out the side and not where its been scored



and yeah my oven was a bit too hot ...

crumb shot, i used about 30% rye flour, tastes real good



Try scoring lenghtwise...

Also - you're letting your crust dry out too much in the second proofing probably - do you let them rise under a moistened towel?

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


unixbeard posted:

The one at the back was scored lengthwise, it baked over then blew out in the corner there, admittedly less than the first one.

Nah I've been rising them under plastic wrap with a tea towel over it, I'll try dampen it a bit and make sure they are fully covered.

Spraying a thin layer of oil on them could help you, but does the crust dry out before you put them in..

Alternatively the heat in your oven is too dry (it dries out the crust too quickly, setting it, thereby not allowing for expansion...) - you can counter that by putting in either a sheet pan in the bottom, or a cast iron pan on the top and let that heat up with the oven. Then spraying (i use a syringe for that) hot water into the pan right after you put in the breads, quickly closing the oven door.

This will create steam, which then will moisten your breads crust and allow for more expansion, and is my preferred method when I am baking at high temperatures (280*c).

You can repeat the steaming after the first 5 minutes in the oven, I cannot really determine if it has a discernible effect on the bread, but it may be worth the try.

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Hopper posted:

I think I sapped all the yeasts strength...

I'll know soon.

That really shouldn't be possible

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Burger buns - any good recipes?

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


The Doctor posted:

I would actually advise against doing this since it can also be a recipe for complete failure. Following the most basic guidelines will increase your chances of success by a lot. This is just based on my own experiences though since for years I would try "throw it all together, it's just bread!!" and ended up with a brick every time.

I dunno.. I think that if you have the process down it is drat hard to fail at making a bread?

(I have not used recipes for the last 20 years or so, so I may have eaten/forgotten all my failures).

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


The Doctor posted:

The point is that a beginner does not have the process down.

You are, as always, entirely correct.

My comment bordered on the self-adulatory in tone too.

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


This may actually also have something to do with the fats... I've found that with bread with a lot of hard fats (butter) you need to let it raise longer than if you use the same amounts of liquid fats - also the temperature.

And for some odd reason this varies... I have yet to figure out exactly why, but it is not a situation that is directly replicable for me, so I haven't found the root cause for it, but it is something which is outside of my direct control (I've ended up with a dense as gently caress bread, and when repeating the process, step by step, it's ended up being fluffy, moist and perfect - I suspect that the temperature of the fat has something to do with it).

The only remedy is not using timing as a measure, but size instead, as others are suggesting.

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Also - I've also found that granulating the fat into the flour helps to prevent this..

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Holy poo poo, someone put that on goonswithspoons wiki?

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??


Do you have cast iron? Use it instead of a stone..

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Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??






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