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mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Plenty of breads don't contain sugar at all and don't taste acidic. I suspect the people who found an acidic taste used natural unsweetened cocoa, which is acidic. If you try that recipe be sure to use Dutch process cocoa. This is just my intuition though, so I don't know for sure. Increasing sugar wouldn't hurt if you are going for a sweeter loaf but it will rise very fast and you probably can decrease the yeast.

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mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


I think mp means the crumb itself has a bit of a golden hue. When I've made challah I've used recipes that have like 8-10 eggs/egg yolk and the color is noticeable. Doctor's recipe is more similar to a regular sandwich loaf.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


GigaFool posted:

To be fair, most 'golden' challah in the supermarket is colored artificially. The golden exterior is easy enough to get at home with an egg wash right before baking.

vvv- Doctor's recipe is a bit light, but I hope you don't mean 8/10 per loaf. I don't really want to debate the 'rules of challah' but I've never seen or used a recipe that heavy, and I grew up in a Jewish family.

I've done 2 eggs + 2 yolks for one large loaf and 4-5 whole eggs or 8-10 egg yolks for two loaves.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


This is my usual soft white bread loaf, it's pretty soft and fluffy but slices well.

100 g 100% hydration starter
50 g water
50 g AP flour

Let that go for an hour or two then add:

180 g water
30 g honey
32 g dry milk (or replace water with milk)
1 - 2 tsp instant yeast (depending how fast I want it to rise)
1 5/8 tsp salt
26 g softened butter (about 2 tablespoons)
350 g AP flour

Mix and knead to form a soft pliable dough, adding up to 35 g more water depending on your flour and humidity. If you don't have a sourdough starter you can just skip the starter step and do do 280 - 315 g water and 450 g flour.


Once the dough is nice and stretchy without tearing, let it rise until double, usually an hour or two depending on how much yeast you used. You can stick it in the fridge and let it go more slowly overnight if you want. Once doubled, redistribute the gas in the dough by stretching and folding it a few times.

Form the dough into a sandwich loaf and place in your loaf plan. Let it proof until it rises a couple inches above the lip of the pan, usually about an hour. Preheat your oven to 350 F some time during the proof.

Bake the bread, spraying some water from a spray bottle into the oven at 30 second intervals for the first couple minutes, or you can also throw some ice cubes into a hot baking pan when you first put the bread in the oven. Start checking at 40 minutes for doneness, when the internal temp is 195 F. Let cool for five minutes in the pan on a cooling rack, then turn the loaf out to cool outside the pan.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


I have a pullman loaf pan too and love it for the uniform loaf. I love a good rustic bread but that stuff stales so quickly, so my go-to for keeping around the house is a good soft white bread that we can eat over the course of a week.

optionally start with 200 g sourdough starter
125 g milk (or 225 g if no sourdough starter)
30-40 g butter
80 g egg (or just 2 eggs and add more flour if needed)
450 g flour (or 550 g if no sourdough starter)
40-60 g sugar
1 Tb salt
3 3/4 tsp yeast (less or none depending on the strength of your sourdough starter)

Rise, degas, shape into a 13x4x4 pullman pan.

Once the dough has risen almost to the lip, bake at 350 F 30-40 minutes or until internal temp is 190 F. Take the lid off the pullman pan in the last 10 minutes or so.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Woof! Woof! - this the enriched bread I make regularly for a soft white bread. For a 13 x 4 x 4 pullman loaf:

225 g milk
30-40 g butter
80 g egg (or just 2 eggs and add more flour if needed)
520 g flour
30 g potato flour
40-60 g sugar
1 Tb salt
3 3/4 tsp instant yeast

Mix, ferment, shape, proof.

Bake at 350 F 30-40 minutes, until internal temp is 195

Sometimes I'll replace 100 g each of the milk and flour with 200 g of sourdough starter.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Unfortunately bread makers just don't make great bread. It can't bake the bread the way an oven does, it may also be fermenting the dough at a higher temperature which speeds up the process but time allows more flavors to develop out of the flour. Use your bread machine to mix and knead your dough but then take the dough out and continue the fermentation, shaping, proofing, and baking process as if you had kneaded by hand.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Thumposaurus posted:

You need to really really really knead it.
Like 30-40 minutes in a kitchenaid mix it.
The big holes come from breaking the gluten.

30-40 minutes in a kitchenaid is overkill. You're not developing much more gluten after a certain point and at the same time too much kneading and you are oxidizing the dough too much which will affect flavor, and you will start to break down gluten which is NOT what results in big holes in bread.

The holes in bread result from CO2 gas (from the yeast activity) expanding air pockets in your dough. You want to preserve these air pockets in your dough throughout your bread making process to achieve bread with holes. To do this you want:

1. Wetter dough: Wetter doughs are less dense, which helps the CO2 diffuse throughout the dough to reach those air pockets. Those air pockets can expand more easily in a wetter dough

2. Sufficient gluten formation: You need the air pockets to be able to expand and contain the CO2 that is created, both during the fermentation process and during the baking process. The gluten network within the dough is what allows this to happen. Sufficient kneading is part of this (but not 30-40 minutes of it), and as some people have mentioned, time helps too, especially if you have a wetter dough that is more difficult to knead, and as a bonus the time also develops more flavors in the dough. If you do a slower rise in the fridge, make sure you decrease the amount of yeast you use though

3. To preserve and redistribute air pockets: Handle your dough gently so that you are not losing those air pockets when you work with it. One technique, the stretch and fold, is a nice way to help redistribute air pockets (so, for example, you don't get just one large air pocket that all the CO2 builds up in and then it gets too large and more easily bursts) as well as helps to realign your gluten network and strengthen it. Here is a nice video on stretch and fold, you can do this a few times during your primary fermentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJlCT3PM

4. Proper proofing and baking: The last step before you bake is to proof your dough, when the last part of the fermentation occurs. You want to bake the bread at the point where the yeast is still active and CO2 production is still expanding those air pockets. With the quick burst of heat at the beginning of baking, those air pockets expand further quickly, becoming even larger, a process called oven spring. Bake too soon and your air pockets will not have expanded sufficiently, bake too late and they tend to deflate.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


If you want a more open crumb, increase the hydration of your dough. You want at least 70% hydration, push it higher if you can manage to work with the dough still. Stretch and folds are good for working with really wet dough.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Short version: To get a more open crumb, increase the hydration of your dough. At least 70% but even higher if you can (if you take the weight of the water in your recipe and divide it by the weight of flour in your recipe, it should be .7 or higher). To get more structure in a really wet dough, you'll want to do stretch and folds instead of any sort of regular kneading technique.

Longer version:

The holes in bread result from CO2 gas (from the yeast activity) expanding air pockets in your dough. You want to preserve these air pockets in your dough throughout your bread making process to achieve bread with holes. To do this you want:

1. Wetter dough: Wetter doughs are less dense, which helps the CO2 diffuse throughout the dough to reach those air pockets. Those air pockets can expand more easily in a wetter dough

2. Sufficient gluten formation: You need the air pockets to be able to expand and contain the CO2 that is created, both during the fermentation process and during the baking process. The gluten network within the dough is what allows this to happen. Sufficient kneading (or stretch and folds with a dough too wet to knead) is part of this and time helps too, especially if you have a wetter dough that is more difficult to knead, and as a bonus the time also develops more flavors in the dough. If you do a slower rise in the fridge, make sure you decrease the amount of yeast you use though.

3. To preserve and redistribute air pockets: Handle your dough gently so that you are not losing those air pockets when you work with it. The stretch and fold is handy here too to help redistribute air pockets (so, for example, you don't get just one large air pocket that all the CO2 builds up in and then it gets too large and more easily bursts) as well as helps to realign your gluten network and strengthen it. Here is a nice video on stretch and fold, you can do this a few times during your primary fermentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJlCT3PM

4. Proper proofing and baking: The last step before you bake is to proof your dough, when the last part of the fermentation occurs. You want to bake the bread at the point where the yeast is still active and CO2 production is still expanding those air pockets. With the quick burst of heat at the beginning of baking, those air pockets expand further quickly, becoming even larger, a process called oven spring. Bake too soon and your air pockets will not have expanded sufficiently, bake too late and they tend to deflate.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


How warm is your kitchen? There's very little yeast in that recipe, if your kitchen is cooler, increase the yeast or ferment longer. It may not completely double as such a wet dough but do make sure it has fermented long enough, either with more time or more yeast. Add some stretch and folds during the fermentation process. If you're knocking out air when handling the dough, you can help that by strengthening the gluten network to hold that air in as well as redistribute the gasses within the dough, as you don't want just one big air bubble, you want them throughout the dough.

Then when you shape it, giving it a bit of structure and surface tension will better help hold in the gasses. Just a loose fold like you're folding a piece of paper to fit into letter sized envelope to form the dough into a loose oblong shape, and then as with the fermentation, make sure you have given it enough time to proof, but not too long.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


1.5 cups water and 3 cups flour is quite a high hydration dough, probably 86-90% depending on how you measured your flour. 86 would still be reasonable. You probably added enough flour to get it to around 70% plus or minus some, which is about the minimum hydration you want for these types of breads. So it'll be fine, just not as open a crumb as it would have been if wetter. See how it bakes up and next time look into the stretch and fold technique which is one of the better methods to develop gluten and structure in a very wet dough. You'll be able to achieve some structure without adding so much more flour. Look up my other posts in this thread, I've posted a video or two on stretch and fold.

After you shape it, you do want to proof it, usually at least 1-2 hours, but it depends on temperature and your yeast activity. Usual rule of thumb is to swell to about double or a little less in size, depending on your hydration. How the dough reacts when you press your finger into it is another test, if it springs back very quickly it needs more proof time, if it fills back in very slowly then it's ready. If the dent remains without filling back up, you've overproofed.

mich fucked around with this message at Apr 4, 2015 around 16:21

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


More kneading is not going to make your bread more dense, underkneading would more likely result in dense bread due to not forming sufficient gluten to give the dough structure to trap the gasses created by your yeast. Most likely, you can use either a bit higher hydration or longer proofing time.

How did the dough feel after kneading? Was it soft and supple or did the dough feel stiff? If it felt stiff then your dough could use more hydration.

Those are also very fast rising times using a lot of yeast. Don't go exactly by time but make sure your dough has fully fermented/risen before shaping, and then after shaping make sure they fully proofed before baking.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Yes. The big advantages of baking in a Dutch oven are that the cast iron holds heat well and when you bake it with the lid on you trap steam which keeps the crust from setting too early for your bread to expand. That holds true for any bread you are baking, regardless of the mixing method.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Ishamael posted:

Well if I am toasting the bread then it doesn't really matter, what I'm looking for is whether there is a way to maintain that initial balance of crusty outside and chewy inside.

Sadly there isn't a way to get back that crusty outside without reheating, and if your bread is sliced, the inside will toast. You can try wrapping the slices in foil except for the crust but it still won't be quite the same. If your bread is a large boule, consider shaping it into 3 or so baguettes instead. Then you can wrap and freeze the whole baguettes, and when you reheat each one, none of the inside is being exposed to radiant heat to get toasted up.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Long cold ferments work fine with sourdough breads. You do want your starter to be active so you would feed your starter in whatever manner/ratio you typically do at room temp. When your starter is ready, mix it with your flour, water, salt, then the rest of the bread baking process is the same as any bread. I usually like to do a few hours of room temp fermentation during which I do a few stretch and folds before putting it in the fridge for the cold ferment, but certainly you could do a no knead process too.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Wedding day bread for a friend. Just a basic sourdough boule.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


High hydration doughs start a really gloopy mess but you should be able to achieve some structure once you develop the gluten in the dough. Whether you are hand mixing or using a mixer, I really recommend doing a series of stretch and folds at 30 minute intervals for 2-3 hours during primary fermentation. That will really help develop structure in your dough. The bread I make most often is fermented at room temperature for 2-3 hours with the stretch and folds before going into the fridge for the rest of primary fermentation. (Stretch and fold: :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJlCT3PM)

Parchment paper definitely is the way to go to start, just slide the whole thing paper and all onto your stone/steel/whatever.

I also really recommend doing a boule to start so you can more easily cover it with a stainless steel bowl or such during the first part of baking in order to keep more steam in contact with the bread at first.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


If you leave your main sourdough starter in the fridge and take out just like 20-30 grams of it and feed that to the amount of starter you need, it can take half a day for it to be ready to use but it will also be less acidic.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Using a larger amount of more mature starter will result in a more sour bread. So increase the amount of starter in the final bread dough, adjusting flour and water added to the dough as needed. Also let your starter become very mature before using it, letting it get to the peak of its activity and then letting it ride a bit past that.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


Kaluza-Klein posted:

I had been using King Arthur plain flour but realized that the attempts I made yesterday were all accidentally done with their bread flour. Trying again right now with the plain flour.

When you say stretch and fold during the first rise, do you mean immediately before or after, or just at some point in the middle?

A series of stretch and folds at the beginning of bulk fermentation is great for developing structure in higher hydration doughs that start off too gloopy. Immediately after you mix your dough in the mixer, do a few stretch and folds. It helps to transfer your dough to a rectangular-ish shaped container to do this, or just your table top. Using a dough scraper is real helpful especially at first too. Three more times, at 30 minute intervals, stretch and fold the dough. Each time you stretch and fold, do it until you see the dough forming a bit more structure with the fold. After each subsequent interval you'll see and feel the dough develop more structure. If it doesn't, you're not stretching and folding enough times for each interval.

After those two hours, then continue your bulk fermentation as normal, like if you would usually put it in the fridge to retard fermentation, do it at that point, or continue fermentation at room temp if that's what you usually do.

mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


With pizza stone/steam set-ups, you'll get a better oven spring if you use a large stainless steel bowl to cover your dough during the first 20 or so minutes of bake. When I bake, I slide my dough onto a baking steel, pour hot water into an old pan that I keep on my lower rack, AND use a big bowl or steam pan to cover. When you combine all three of these elements, I find it better than using a Dutch oven.

Big roasting pan lids or steam pans are great if you then want to venture into making batards or other shapes.

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mich
Feb 28, 2003
I may be racist but I'm the good kind of racist! You better put down those chopsticks, you HITLER!


At just 70% hydration it's definitely not the water content, that is not very high hydration at all so the problems are with the structure of the dough.

I think the problem is too long of a primary fermentation and then too long of proofing. Once a dough overferments, it'll lose a lot of structure. At that point, baking it as a ciabatta works best rather than trying to shape it into a boule.

I would definitely try making a smaller loaf to start so you can have a better feel for the dough and work with it. Scale it down to about 400 g of flour.

During your first 2 hours of primary fermentation, do stretch and folds every 30 minutes. That is when you should be doing stretch and fold, not after primary fermentation. I highly recommend these s+f at the beginning of primary fermentation to help give structure to the dough. It doesn't add much work over doing pure no-knead but significantly improves your dough.

I would then move it to the fridge to retard the primary fermentation. The cold dough will then also be easier for you to work with to shape it. After you shape it, proof in a basket or lined bowl to help keep the shape as it proofs. You can proof for up to 2 hours at room temp or stick it back in the fridge to let it proof even a bit longer, but definitely keep an eye on how the dough is feeling throughout proofing because it can end up taking a shorter or longer amount of time based on numerous factors.

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