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dhamster posted:Yeah, internet denizens these days seem to get pretty mad when media companies decide to market their content to demographics that don't include then. That said, Arnold's character was a lot more interesting in T2 than he was in T1. I know this is a Star Wars thread, but I can't let this pass. Arnold's character in T1 is perfect. He's a robotic killing machine, and it's the role he was made for. One of the best villains ever to appear on screen. T2 is almost an entire remake of T1, but now massively influenced by Arnold's then mega-stardom. Thus, he's the good guy and doesn't kill anyone, which I found weak. T2 is a great movie, but it's not nearly as good as T1.
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Aug 16, 2013 02:37
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Any more hints out there what the plot of the next Star Wars film will be? I'm hungry for info!
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Nov 19, 2013 17:59
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I just watched ROTS and TPM again, and some comments: ROTJ - The movie has the charms of the previous two movies, but it seems like a weak movie. The opening scene is Vader returning to the Death Star 2. Then, the fairly ridiculous "rescue Han" adventure. I couldn't help but think how mercilessly this movie would be critiqued if released today. The action is awkward, the plot doesn't make a lot of sense, and the characters act quite dumb. And then there's the additions from the Special editions - everyone of them, terrible. Lucas felt the movie need a burp joke, for example. TPM - I think this is a great Star Wars movie. It's fun and well put together. I found on this re-watch though that the character of Qui Gon is quite dubious. He lies, he gambles and cheats at gambling, he manipulates innocent creatures, he's insulting. He's not the noble, pure Jedi he seems at first. It's an interesting take, because he's the lead of the movie and as such seems to be Lucas' statement on what the Jedi used to be like. Man did they all mess up Anakin right from the start, though - and not only by taking him away from his mother. The confrontation at the Jedi Council where Qui Gon calls him the Chosen one and the Council says he won't be trained. Mindfucks.
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Dec 5, 2013 21:15
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Diabolik900 posted:I can think of two burps in Return of the Jedi, and neither one was a Special Edition change. List them. The one I'm thinking of is a lingering shot outside of Jabba's place and this frog-like creatures snags a bug with his long tongue, then burps. Looks like an add to me.
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Dec 5, 2013 21:30
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Farecoal posted:No one gives a poo poo about some "deep meaning" either I enjoy most of them, especially TPM. I mean, let's break it down - the first 25 minutes of the movie is pretty awesome (Jedi on the Trade Federation ship). The escape from Naboo scene is pretty cool (Jedi action). All the lightsaber fights are incredible. The triple ending is great. The scenes on Corascant are great. What's bad? Jar Jar stuff? Pod race? Anakin dialogue? These things are not the majority of the movie.
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Dec 5, 2013 21:33
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The prequels are still painful to watch no matter how much analysis you give them
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sebmojo posted:FWIW, that was about what we thought at the time, I saw it when it came out so I was... 12? There was a general feeling it was heading into lameness. Yeah, it was underwhelming in large part, but made up for it back in the day because 2 of the 3 endings for the movie were pretty great (space battle and Luke-Vader-Emperor scene. Ewok battle is ridiculous).
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Dec 5, 2013 21:35
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kiimo posted:That was in the theater release. I stand corrected. Still stupid - and a good insight into where Lucas was heading.
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Dec 5, 2013 21:35
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Is there any fan explanation for why the Emperor went out like such a wuss? He couldn't jump away from Vader? Couldn't catch on to something as he was falling down the hole? The prequels slightly ruined that scene for me because we see how acrobatic Palpatine can be. Originally, we had no idea the Emperor could move around much at all, given how old and feeble he appeared.
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Dec 5, 2013 21:45
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Diabolik900 posted:There's a lot in Return of the Jedi that you could say this about. I still enjoy it a lot more than the prequels, but in retrospect Jedi has a lot of signs of where the series was headed. True. Man, Boba Fett is so lame that entire scene - he's played for laughs. And so was that Luke's plan all along? Everyone get caught and almost killed by Sarlacc?
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Dec 5, 2013 21:51
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Corek posted:Richard Marquand was the director of Return of the Jedi (although a lot of people say Lucas was basically an uncredited co-director.) Hmm. Those "jokes" have all the style of the SE additions. I wonder if Marquand somehow corrupted Lucas?
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Dec 5, 2013 22:37
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Yoda makes several references to the Dark Side covering everything, and there's a few more references of the Jedi not being able to use the Force as well as they once could, because of the Dark Side. Which makes me wonder if the central flaw of the Jedi was in attempting to impose a morality on the Force, rather than just following it. Qui Gon and Dooku seem like Jedi who were following the Force, which has darkened.
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Dec 5, 2013 23:52
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ROTJ has some examples of puzzling dialogue - like the repeated references to "The forest moon of Endor", which gets repeated a couple of times within a few lines of each other. Can anyone explain the logic behind Luke's rescue plan? Or was it all just "because of The Force". Not only does he put everyone in danger (imagine if Jabba just shot them in the palace rather than the elaborate death by Saarlac), but he's bad at it - he can't see/sense there's a trap door below Jabba's throne, even though C3-PO shouts it out. He gets wrapped up by the Rancor. He should have been killed several times over during the fight over the Saarlac.
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Dec 7, 2013 00:10
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Hbomberguy posted:I love how in Return of the Jedi, the Jedi only 'return' for about ten minutes before Anakin dies and they're extinct again. It's a really effective return though, I mean he destroys the Sith, but still. What? Luke's the Jedi. And it's not just boasting on Luke's part - Yoda says once he confronts Vader, a Jedi he will be.
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Dec 7, 2013 02:03
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Hbomberguy posted:I don't think so. A Jedi, as far as Yoda is concerned (see: the prequels) is someone who acts like an idiot and goes after the Sith and cuts them down no matter what the moral justifications, see when Yoda tries and fails to assassinate the emperor in Revenge of the Sith. Luke doesn't confront Vader even though Yoda wants him to, as soon as he gets ahold of himself he throws the lightsaber (THE symbolic weapon of a Jedi, even Palpatine calls it a 'Jedi weapon') away. I like your points, but disagree. Luke refers to himself as a Jedi in the ultimate moment of the movie: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me". Luke's quest is over, he's become a Jedi. Anakin's destiny is fulfilled when he kills the Emperor, then dies. But there is still Jedi - but you're certainly right, a different type of Jedi. One who Force chokes preemptively.
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Dec 7, 2013 04:56
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Well, in ROTJ only, the first time we see Luke he is clad in a cloak very much like the Emperor's, he Force chokes two guards, and then mind tricks Jabba's assistant. Then he threatens Jabba with death. Not very Jedi like. I realize this is established to set up the main conflict of the movie: Will Luke turn to the Dark side, or defeat the Dark side? However, given the nature of the trilogy, the outcome is pretty much assured - Luke is "Good". The ending of the movie does leave this as a somewhat open question, since Luke is still dressed all in black at the end, and having no peers, it seems safe to guess Luke's version of Jedi is going to be darker than Yoda's.
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Dec 8, 2013 15:49
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Lets! Get! Weird! posted:I think the most interesting part of the thread is people defending a trilogy of poorly made and written movies even after a famous destruction of them had gone viral years ago.
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Dec 8, 2013 20:51
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zVxTeflon posted:the prequesl suck because theres no cool space battles and thats like 90% of the reason Cool space battle at the end of TPM, and the beginning of ROTS.
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Dec 9, 2013 05:07
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Darko posted:The ROTS space battle was terrible. There was no clear contrast, colors everywhere for no rhyme or reason, the rising action was stuttered, and there was no clear goal until the very end. You can say "it was supposed to be hectic," but it completely failed at eliciting any emotion besides, "what the hell" with that. Given that the battle is intentionally a farce and in actuality the final move by Palpatine to secure both unlimited powers within the government and a new apprentice as well. As such, the battle seems perfectly presented.
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Dec 9, 2013 17:14
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Do you think there's any merit to the idea that if the OT were released today they'd be panned? There's no way we can know for sure, of course, but I can't imagine a film like ROTJ being released today not being savaged on the internet. "Teddy Bears defeat the best of the Empire? BS!".
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Dec 10, 2013 00:41
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I ask the question only because it seems we, the audience, are more likely to be critical today than audiences in the past. Mainly because of the Internet. The PT is constructed in much the same way as the OT - as a kid's movie, mainly - but the same techniques used in the OT are critically panned in the PT.
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Dec 10, 2013 01:53
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Lord Krangdar posted:It's like a lightsabre slap fight. I know that scene gets made fun of a lot, but I thought that the Obi-Wan v. Anakin fight at the end of ROTS was dramatic and powerful. There's no dialogue and Anakin's sense of rage is palpable, as is Obi-Wan's desperation.
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Dec 10, 2013 06:14
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Carnaticum posted:All you people trying to retroactively put reason into the actions of prequel characters: I defy you to make reason out of Padme. Padme was a great character in the first two prequels. I don't know what happened in the third, and I agree her ending is pathetic.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:35
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Hbomberguy posted:The 'bad acting' of Natalie Portman is in fact the bad acting of Padme. It absolutely serves the story, Padme is a Queen and not very good at all at pretending to be anything else. Numerous times in the movie, Qui-Gon taunts her to her face with the fact he knows she's the real Queen, and when she finally 'reveals' herself, while everyone else looks surprised he just gives a smug grin. How do you know Qui-Gon knew? When Padme does the reveal at the end of TPM, he and Obi-Wan share a look that says to me "wow, didn't see that coming".
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Dec 10, 2013 18:36
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Jerk McJerkface posted:How do you explain the moronic order to clean up a droid and give it some sort of honor? After you unclog your toilet do you have your children hand polish the plunger and put it up on your mantel and tell your family how amazing it is? People clearly develop emotional attachments to droids in the SW universe.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:13
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:People are welcome to my world if they want refuge from the world of *prolonged honking fart sound* Can you go into the use of identity in TPM? We have at least two specific examples of main characters who have alter-egos (Padme and Palpatine). Additionally, the name of the movie lends itself to a question of identity - who is the "Phantom"? The first line spoken by Obi-Wan speaks directly to this. Additionally, Qui-Gon pretends to be just some ruffian for a good deal of the movie, and of course the main example, Anakin - who's presented as both just a kid and the Chosen One.
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Dec 11, 2013 00:07
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Good discussion. Love it! Re: The balance of the Force. It is already out of balance from the moment The Phantom Menace begins. We see this shown clearly by a Sith Lord ordering the unprovoked invasion of a planet of the Republic, and the Republic is seemingly helpless to do anything about it. This is the big clue that everything's already hosed, and it's only a matter of how it's going to collapse. The Force is already out of balance because the Dark Side is calling the shots. We also know it's out of balance because the Chosen One to balance it is discovered by seeming accident, i.e. The Force directed Qui Gon to Anakin. The Jedi are not just the keepers of the peace, but they serve the Republic. The Republic is already corrupted to the core, and thus the Jedi are corrupted. Once a Sith Lord takes over the Republic, all of the Jedi are serving the Sith. A figure like Dooku is interesting because he sensed this corruption and got out, thinking himself a servant to the Force and not the Republic. A wise notion, but the Force itself is corrupted at this point, and following it is following darkness.
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Dec 12, 2013 04:11
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Parachute posted:In regards to lightsaber fighting. I know it was mentioned that it's like a super force battle or whatever, but how does that work when Obi Wan fights Grievous? Well, Obi Wan won. But I think the point was - and with the droid armies too - the use of overwhelming technology can overpower the Force. This debate was specifically articulated in the first movie.
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Dec 12, 2013 17:58
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Parachute posted:I totally forgot that Obi Wan had to use a blaster to defeat the lightsaber robot monster. That's not entirely fair. He defeated Grievous at lightsabers, Grievous ran, Obi Wan chased him, lost his lightsaber, so they fought hand to hand, and then Obi Wan had to blast him.
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Dec 12, 2013 22:14
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KaptainKrunk posted:The funny thing about Padme's "democracy dies" line is that she was the one two movies earlier who called for a motion of no confidence because Valorum wasn't willing to go into Naboo guns blazing, despite the fact that he was the one who sent Jedi knights to rescue her in the first place. I disagree. I think Palpatine set up a situation with Amidala where she felt there were no options available to her. Palpatine tells her the Senate is useless, and she sees this with her own eyes. Palpatine suggests they could make a plea to the Courts, but Amidala realizes that's a long, drawn out process, and due to the emergency on her planet - "the death toll is catastrophic" - she feels compelled to take the fastest route possible. Which is, as Palpatine suggested, a vote of no confidence. Ultimately, nothing that happens on Coruscant resolves the situation on Naboo, but rather it is Amidala taking direct action which does. However, the invasion of Naboo was always nothing but a ploy to get Palpatine elected Chancellor, and so it happened.
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Dec 13, 2013 17:11
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"If droids could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Dec 14, 2013 13:41
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We could go on and on forever about the SE changes, but the worst has to be ROTS Anakin showing up at the end of Jedi. For a lot of reasons of course, prime among them, Luke has no idea who that is.
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Dec 15, 2013 04:10
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Maxwell Lord posted:Would he recognize some middle aged man either? He'd recognize the guy he just saw a couple of days earlier, I think. As it was in the original.
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Dec 15, 2013 04:54
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mr. stefan posted:(Incidentally, the moment where Palpatine starts using lightning on Luke in RotJ is probably one of my favorite moments in the whole series, because if you've not watched the prequels and don't know a lot about Star Wars, you have no idea what's coming or how direct Palpatine is going to be in expressing his power.) Only mentioned in the first movie, only appears as a hologram in the second, and is revealed in the third. His mere name inspires terror - it's an excellent portrayal of a villain. Is it fair to say all the Star Wars movies are really about Palpatine? That it's his story? Because he is the source of all drama/action.
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Dec 15, 2013 20:34
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Who hasn't tried to Force lift the remote control into their hand?
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Dec 16, 2013 00:47
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Just watched ROTS. It's got some great moments, and some terrible moments. I love the opening space battle, and the duel with Dooku is pretty awesome. The entire elevator scene and R2-D2 with a too loud comm? Ug. Terrible. The worst part of this movie, however, is what happens to Padme. From being a legitimate action hero in TPM and AOTC, here she is nothing but, pregnant. That's it. It feels very demeaning. I'm going to fanwank that her death from "lack of will" has something to do with her midichlorians and the shroud of the dark side. I guess. A small awkward moment, I thought, was at the very end when both Obi-Wan and Yoda eagerly refer to Palpatine as "The Emperor". Why? How would they even know? Speaking of which, the passage of time during this entire movie is kinda odd, especially the end. There seem to be several unremarked jumps in time that occur simultaneously with ongoing action. I think I might have some kind of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to the Prequels. I really enjoy them, even though I know they're all flawed.
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Dec 17, 2013 04:05
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After so many years now, is there any better explanation as to what happens to Palpatine's face when Mace Windu deflects his own lightning back at him? Taken as is, it seems fairly ludicrous. I'll say though it was a nice touch that soon after this transformation, Palpatine affects the same walk he had in ROTJ - with his hands held out in front of him. I assume this is so he can zap someone quickly.
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Dec 18, 2013 01:00
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computer parts posted:Some people speculate that Palpatine's face always looked like that and he just used a veil of Force magic to conceal it. Evidence for this: From the cartoon Clone Wars, the hologram of Sidious has horrible, jagged teeth, like we see in ROTS. Palpatine's teeth were normal in AOTC.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:28
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Maxwell Lord posted:While I can see the Asian/Neimodian connection, I think it's odd to claim that Jar Jar is a powerful nonverbal argument for the inferiority of blacks when his connection is to stereotypes that frankly went out of general use well before- it's not the precise same imagery that's used to stereotype black people now even if you can trace a line. Like, there's a reason Birth of a Nation isn't an effective pro-Klan recruitment tool anymore, we don't recognize the iconography as readily. Jar Jar is obviously The Fool, but more so, everyone in the movie either hates him or just tolerates him as well, including most Gungans. Every other Gungan in TPM is shown as capable and as brave as any other group in the movies.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:29
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Maxwell Lord posted:There is that too. (And Boss Nass is Brian Blessed. It is impossible to disrespect a group led by Brian Blessed.) Most of the traits that got associated with the Steppin Fetchit/Mantan Moreland types in movies (that may have been more direct influences- but more on that later)- are common to Fool characters in general, the mangling of language, awkward movement, etc. It was often used for ethnic characters (of many stripes- El Brendel was famously a goofy Swede character with the catchphrase "Yumpin' Yiminy!") but you also see it for the lower-class comic characters in Shakespeare, etc. True. But the Neimoidians are clearly space Japanese from WW2. They even launch a Pearl Harbor like attack.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:35
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Maxwell Lord posted:Well, like I said they have the Asian connection (though I never got specifically Japanese- their accent is more a general sibilance) but Pearl Harbor was a sudden violent strike, whereas the Trade Federation just park troops on the planet and say "'sup bitches, we're in charge." The carnage waits until the climax. It would have been more destructive if the Naboo had even a semblance of an Army - which they don't. They certainly didn't expect the attack. Regardless, from the moment I first saw TPM, the Asian stereotype for them seemed pretty overwhelming. As for Watto, he's specifically a stereotypical NYC merchant - hairy, wearing a wife beater, loud, pushy, etc.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:43
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