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ImpAtom posted:So your argument is that any force that has enough power is completely justified to use that power, even if it means encroaching on the rights of countries they do not have belong to, in order to enforce their idea of justice onto the people of those nations? The Jedi aren't automatically justified in whatever they do simply because they are powerful. We're discussing slavery specifically, so yes I'm saying they're justified in fighting against it, regardless of borders.
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Dec 1, 2015 16:40
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Yea I'm not sure where anyone's getting the idea that the Jedi would just waltz into Hutt territory and unceremoniously murder everyone. But if it comes to a fight they have the power to come out on top, unlike normal people who can't move things with their mind, leap tall buildings, sense the future, etc. Who's to say they wouldn't try diplomacy first? I'd assume they would.
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Dec 1, 2015 16:48
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By the time we see them in the prequels its true that the Jedi can't start a war without the Republic being drawn into it, and that would be irresponsible. But that's why they shouldn't have allowed themselves to become so attached to the Republic in the first place. They can't make the moves they would otherwise make to fight against injustices like slavery because of their attachments, which is crazy because the attachment thing is written right into their code! ^^^^what he said
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Dec 1, 2015 17:17
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ImpAtom posted:The movie actually argues the opposite. While Qui-Gon Jinn has noble ideals he goes outside of the structure of multiple occasions and every single time he does he causes a long-term problem in order to achieve a short-term goal. Likewise the Republic refuses to support Padme when she seeks help and so she actually calls for a no-vote of confidence in them because of that, which in turn allows Palpatine to take control. If anything the prequel trilogy is a post-Iraq condemnation of taking action without concerns for long-term consequences. So you're saying that it was Padme calling for the vote of no confidence was the problem there? Not the ineffective Republic that caused a trade dispute and then refused to help when Naboo is blockaded because of it?
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Dec 1, 2015 17:25
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ImpAtom posted:I'm saying that perhaps the solution to complex political problems is not "a group of superpowered dudes go in with magic powers to beat up all the bad guys." They wouldn't be handling complex political problems, that's exactly the kind of poo poo I'm saying they should be staying out of. Slavery isn't a political problem, at least not when you have literal super powers. Its an injustice that should be fought against, regardless of politics.
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Dec 1, 2015 17:32
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ImpAtom posted:So your ideal view of the Jedi are a group of stateless actors who 'take action to fight against injustice' where injustice is defined by their religious code? I just want to make sure I'm clear on what you expect the Jedi to be. Yes, but remember that this is a fictional group that is clearly defined by the films. Jedi by definition protect peace and justice, if they aren't doing that then they aren't really Jedi anymore if we're going to talk about an "ideal" version of what they should be.
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Dec 1, 2015 17:39
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ImpAtom posted:There is no such thing as a fictional group in films. The Jedi are fictional but they are a stand-in for real world organizations. There is no real-world equivalent to the Jedi because they have infinite magical powers that allow them to do things that would be game-changers in the real world. In the real world no group of a few hundred dudes could ever really accomplish what the Jedi are capable of as far as freeing people from oppression.
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Dec 1, 2015 17:50
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Neo Rasa posted:Are you one of those people that thought Elysium was unrealistic because it was about rich people making sure people that have to work for a living don't have affordable health care and that that was unrealistically evil? I have not seen it but no I don't think I'd feel that way. There is definitely symbolic significance to the Jedi, just not in a way that's really relevant to this discussion. We're specifically discussing different ways the Jedi could potentially behave in Star Wars, and they have options available to them that simply don't exist anywhere in the real world.
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Dec 1, 2015 18:17
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Hazo posted:We're actually sorta not discussing this-- I asked but nobody answered. What should the Jedi have done to free the galaxy of slavery, if not engage in war in sovereign space? They walk up to a slaver and say to them "We are freeing your slaves. From now on you will not own people. If you insist on fighting us over it, so be it." Then you go to the next guy who has slaves and have the same conversation. Eventually all the slaves will be free or all the Jedi will be killed. Nobody's saying the Jedi will instantly be able to solve any problem, but becoming inseparable with the Republic did nothing but make things more difficult.
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Dec 1, 2015 18:53
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Hazo posted:Do you think this is a reasonable and feasible thing to be done? Like, in the real world (a single planet), can we go up to different slavers or drug dealers or terrorists or what have you and just say "cut it out or die"? I really don't see how you think this is at all realistic for Jedi to do across the galaxy, even with the "superpowers" of moving rocks with their minds. The Jedi philosophy isn't realistic, that's probably the main reason why its been abandoned by so many. It means drawing a line in the sand and putting one's self in danger to protect others or give them freedom. But as I've said multiple times now, they have powers and abilities way beyond anything in the real world, and because of that they are capable of living by that code if they so choose. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be dangerous, or that they would always succeed, but they aren't exactly the neighborhood watch. With all the insane poo poo I've seen Jedi do across the films and in the various t.v. shows, I wouldn't bet against them.
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Dec 1, 2015 19:39
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This debate about slaves is always lame because the standard, boring answer is really still the best one: Go watch Hidden Fortress. If after watching Hidden Fortress you still think the droids are meant to be automatons with no feelings or free will then I guess movies may not be for you.
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Dec 2, 2015 16:36
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Kurzon posted:Why give them feelings? Isn't the whole point of droids to have servants who have no feelings and can be thus can exploited without remorse? They have feelings because they are connected to the Force and are actually living beings.
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Dec 2, 2015 16:40
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Kurzon posted:Ordering an army of clones is not like ordering a pizza. The Kaminos, if they had any sense, would have made a few phone calls asking why nobody from the Republic was checking up on their progress. It was explained a lot more in depth how all that went down in the Clone Wars series, but I know that's not really a defense. It should have been fleshed out more in the actual films.
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Dec 2, 2015 19:26
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porfiria posted:How is it possible that a random world no one's ever heard of has the industrial capacity to build a galaxy-beating army? Like, how could such a thing even come about? People have absolutely heard of Kamino and know all about their clone armies. The specific army built for the Republic is a secret.
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Dec 2, 2015 19:36
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Beeez posted:So has any supplementary material explained why Jakku is so important? I've heard it's apparently supposed to be the last battle of the war, but why? Why would losing there be enough for the Empire to call it quits? I think there is some novel or comic that explains all that. I assumed Jakku itself isn't all that important it just happens to be where certain Imperial assets were lost and they couldn't come back from it. I remember in the EU the remnants of the Empire had a hierarchy pretty much based on who had command of the biggest Star Destroyer, and I think by the end of RotJ there were only one or two Super Star Destroyers left in existence. So if they lost a few of those really important ships it would have been tough to come back from, and the Jakku battle does involve a Star Destroyer crashing on the planet.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:01
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Fred Breakfast posted:Also, Mark Hamill STILL looking good https://www.thewrap.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-mark-hamill-luke-skywalker-undercover-as-stormtrooper-hollywood-boulevard-video/ He's really the best ambassador for Star Wars that anyone could have hoped for.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:17
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Kurzon posted:No reason to discard them in the mud. What's your point? Palpatine manipulated Anakin just like he manipulated everyone else. He's very confident he'd be able to figure out a way to bend Luke to his will because its what he's good at.
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Dec 4, 2015 15:11
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Kurzon posted:He doesn't manipulate Luke they way he did with Anakin. Palpatine fed Anakin's arrogance and fears. With Luke, he just tried to make him lose his temper. He(well technically Vader, but acting as Palpatine's agent) played on Luke's fear that his loved ones would be hurt or killed. Sound familiar? If Luke sees that Palpatine too powerful to defeat, he may be willing to side with him in order to save his sister. Or maybe Palpatine would have figured out some different weakness to exploit. Who knows, we never get to find out.
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Dec 4, 2015 15:24
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The "strike him down and take your place at my side" line maybe sounds like Luke would just kill Vader and turn right on the spot, but I'm sure Palpatine would have been planning to incapacitate him in some way at least for the moment. Like the poster above said, Palpatine was being totally open with Luke about his true nature, so I doubt he would have expected it to go down the same way it did with Anakin.
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Dec 4, 2015 16:58
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Beeez posted:I think people get way too hung up on the idea that Jedi aren't supposed to use violence at all, or that Luke was rejecting using violence or his lightsaber ever again while on the Death Star. I don't think anyone is really saying that. When Luke throws is lightsaber away he's not rejecting all violence, he's rejecting the false choice being shoved down his throat by the sides that have been pulling him in opposite directions for three movies.
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Dec 4, 2015 18:04
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What was the reaction amongst Star Trek fans when Kirk was given that ridiculous death in Generations? I'm curious because I'm pretty confident something similar will happen with one of the originals like Han or Luke. Like, I know people make fun of it now but back then were people writing angry letters and completely freaking out that Kirk went out like a bitch?
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Dec 9, 2015 16:16
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thathonkey posted:My prediction: Boyega gonna get owned, possibly killed, by kylo then rey will be revealed as the true force user. I really don't see this happening. Of the two characters Boyega is the one who's proven he has real acting ability. Seems like a bad idea to give up that kind of asset when there's still like fifty Star Wars movies in the hopper.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:33
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euphronius posted:I grew up with the original vhss in the 80s and they looked like poo poo compared to the redone versions. I think the Special Editions came along at the perfect time for me. I had seen the original versions many times on t.v., but I didn't really have time to "grow up with them", because when the Special Editions were released I was only like 10 years old. So my first theatrical Star Wars experience was the SE, and it blew my mind just the same as the original version did for people when it was released. I had seen the originals but hadn't had time to become so attached to them that any change would be offensive, I just thought it was really cool that all the special effects looked better.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:52
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I do wonder how the prequels play if you don't ever realize who Palpatine is. Like maybe there's some awesome reveal moment that I never noticed. Its not a mindset I can really imagine myself in because from an early age I was immersed in all the EU novels and all that crap so I wasn't going to forget who Palpatine was.
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Dec 9, 2015 18:05
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Nessus posted:The point of that minor shift and the Jabba scene seemed to be to make Han look less evil, and perhaps remove the question of "is he going to just sell Luke and Obi-wan to the Imperials." This may have been a bad decision but that seems to be the overall effect of the shifts. It is kind of neat how people appear to have gotten so vastly emotionally invested in that thin sliver of nuance, though. Shows you the power of film! I can't remember but I think its a Marcia Lucas quote, she said something like "If the audience doesn't applaud when Han comes back and saves Luke at the end, the movie didn't work". Setting up Han as an unscrupulous character is important for creating that tension the audience should have about whether Han is really going to follow through on what he says and leave. Shooting Greedo was one of a handful of very important scenes that set all that up.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:34
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MrMojok posted:The thing I never got about this idea is that there's nothing unscrupulous about Solo shooting him first under the table. Dude is pointing a gun at him, and has said he is going to kill him. You're right, and I suppose unscrupulous isn't the right word. It shows he's willing to do anything, even kill, to protect himself. And the way he does it is very cold, calculating. All that makes it easier for the audience to believe that he may actually leave at the end, after all staying isn't the "smart" thing to do and involves a high chance of death.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:50
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Nessus posted:As it is, he shoots a tiny sliver of a second after Greedo, from his position of having him covered with the gun underneath the table. I may not be a scoundrel-ologist (and indeed sometimes it feels like that word was made up for Star Wars) but I don't think it ruins the character. It absolutely doesn't ruin the character and fans make a much bigger deal out of it than it really needs to be. That said, it does show that on some level Lucas didn't fully understand why the Han Solo character works so well for the movie. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 21:21
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Detective No. 27 posted:I don't think Finn is gonna get killed. Luke was about to get blasted by Vader in the trench before Han showed up. Finn will get schooled and then rescued in the knick of time. Yea there's any number of different ways he could escape, assuming he has to die there just because he's not as good with a lightsaber as Ren is a lack of imagination. My guess is he'll bumble his way through a very quick fight where he just barely blocks a few half-assed swings by Ren, then get rescued somehow. You can see Ren is swaggering around like he owns the place, I'm thinking he will not be taking Finn seriously at all.
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Dec 10, 2015 16:12
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gohmak posted:Watch Finns face in the Chinese trailer when he faces Kylo Ren. He goes from apprehension to determined resolve in a fraction of a second. This kid has serious acting skills and I will Really this is the most important reason Finn will be sticking around, probably for several movies at least. They've already had some issues with the performance of one of the less experienced actors, Boyega is an asset to the franchise that I don't think they'd discard to quickly.
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Dec 10, 2015 16:23
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that he will not be killed off in this movie.
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jivjov posted:The whole concept is an exercise in pedantry. This is the answer.
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Dec 10, 2015 17:37
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It is really very interesting how both sides of these arguments think of the other side as the ones doing the nonsensical screeching in protest to the measured, rational points being presented by the good guys.
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Dec 10, 2015 20:16
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The video games that came out in 1999 all still had very visible, jagged pixels all over them. Even for a gamer its very easy to forget how far things have come unless you sit down and try to play some older stuff.
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Dec 10, 2015 20:44
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gohmak posted:I was disappointed in the Anikan vs Dooku fight in AOTC because the book said Dooku was a master of a fencing like form that was better suited for lightsaber dueling while the average jedi focused on a form that was better suited for deflecting blaster fire. What was shown on screen did not reflect that. Unfortunately Christopher Lee really couldn't move around by that point and any actual fencing action would have been done in very wide shots.
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Dec 10, 2015 22:04
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Cnut the Great posted:Yes, there was an argument over the matter a while back in this very thread. So some people were arguing that Luke like used the Force somehow to sense that he could survive the fall? Or that he just slipped?
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Dec 10, 2015 22:17
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thathonkey posted:Wow ive never seen people defend the prequels unironically and in earnest... I feel like ive stumbled upon one of those rare village tribes that have managed to live for years never having made contact with the outside world Nobody really tries to argue that they're unappreciated masterpieces or anything like that. But the prequels have their strong points, and their weak points are often similar to the flaws of the OT, just without the benefit of nostalgia. There are a lot of people who saw the prequels in the theatre the one time over a decade ago, probably have very little memory of the actual experience, but they just parrot the standard RLM opinions without ever going back and reevaluating the films for themselves.
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Dec 11, 2015 15:33
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thathonkey posted:I actually just watched all 6 films in order over the past few weeks and as a huge fanboy of star wars since age 8 (even a lot of the horrible EU material) I still hated the prequels just as much as I did when I first saw them at age 13 or so. They look, feel, and sound mediocre with mediocre and tedious screenplays to round out the theme on hitting the mark of bloated mediocrity in every single element and category of film making. I dont need RLM to create a criticism to parrot. It's all self evident and anyone with a shred of taste in film can see that. Also a lot of the time people who defend the prequels(not me I'm one of the worst posters here) actually post screenshots and detailed analysis about what they appreciate about them. Vague adjectives like "mediocre" aren't really all that useful.
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Dec 11, 2015 16:09
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Guy A. Person posted:The thing is "mediocre" is a much more moderate criticism than a lot of fans who think these films are terrible and make no sense and ruined Star Wars. Even "trainwreck" is an exaggeration; what exactly merits that description? Agreed, "mediocre" more of the kind of criticism I'd expect to hear from someone who's actually sat down and watched the movies with the honest intention of enjoying them. So its a step up from a lot of Star Wars fans who hate the prequels for reasons they can't adequately explain, but then refuse to watch them again and really put that hate to the test.
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Dec 11, 2015 16:27
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RBA Starblade posted:I can think of no better way to spend an evening than to settle in and watch something I hated the last couple times I saw it. That's fine but then don't expect anyone to give a poo poo about your opinion if you saw a movie once 15 years ago and can't remember enough about it to criticize beyond worthless adjectives. Those are the people I'm talking about, the ones who never went back to the prequels once the hivemind decided that they were bad somewhere around 2004.
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Dec 11, 2015 16:47
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I think part of the issue is that the relationship doesn't seem to be there as a way to add romance to the movie, or humanize Anakin, or any of the traditional reasons it would normally be included. Its there to demonstrate that Anakin is a very damaged person and has no ability to interact in normal way that would be conducive to a healthy relationship whether it be romance, friendship, or otherwise. He never had a chance from the day he was accepted into the Jedi order, all of his awkwardness and weirdness is there to demonstrate that to the audience.
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Dec 11, 2015 17:14
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