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What if all of us in here all worked together to finish Barkley 2? I’ll make the wiki
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Jun 4, 2019 15:48
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As much as the project failing sucks, this developer commentary is fascinating. I'd put a few bucks in for a documentary of the Barkley 2: Hoopz is Chaos Dunking in Heaven with my Kickstarter Money: Chapter 1 of the Dark Drakerz Saga. Plus I'm curious what happened to the sealed copy of Barkley Shut Up and Jam! that I sent the dev team. Did they fight over it? Am I the cause of this?!
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Jun 4, 2019 16:06
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I never had a stick in this and it was dead by the time I started casually following this thread, but after seeing Frankie's art, I need to know, who owns the guns art? It deserves to see the light of day, even if in a different game entirely.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:08
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edit: If you don't have anything nice to say.
Deep Thought fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 16:26
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I'd like to kick in $10 towards a documentary about how the game fell apart and then another $10 towards a documentary about how the documentary fell apart
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Jun 4, 2019 16:38
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There's a lot of talk of salvaging Barkley 2, making it open source, releasing a build, and so on. I fought extremely hard to try and make this game happen and it did not work. Around the time Chef and Brian left, work was going at a snails pace and the game was still in disrepair. Liam called me and told me that without me this game would be dead. I wasn't interested, it was too much to take on with little in return and I had my own projects. Then he told me that I would be "partners" with Liam in the ToG business since we were the only two remaining, that I would have authority creatively, and he would do whatever it takes to help me. I would have abandoned the game if those things were not promised. The reason this game didn't fall apart sooner is because the majority of the time I spent on this game was fixing or making things that were not in dispute. Making this game viable was my priority. After I addressed the majority of technical problems in this game, we were moving more on to game content, systems, and focusing more on scope. It was basically a war of attrition at this point. I would argue against the game being complicated, cutting down ideas, and so on, which was met with "Hold on a second, let's talk about this..." which led to countless meetings, TRAC tickets and compromises. Having to fight against this lunacy constantly took a toll on both me and Laz (Gortarius). There were times where Laz would do work on this game that moved it forward and Liam would throw a poo poo fit because "he was not informed" of it. I defended Laz every single time and told Liam he's crazy for criticizing someone for doing free work on this struggling game. He knew that Laz and me were a package deal, so Liam tried to convince me to "fire" Laz and I told him that's never going to happen. Towards the end, Liam even told me that if he was ever a negative influence on this game, he would step away and let us continue. This was during a period where he was struggling to do any meaningful work on the game and facing a lot of personal issues. Then design decisions on this game were made by Liam and presented as if it was some "agreed on" thing. I would point out I never consented to those features or ideas. Then it turned into more arguments and meetings. The game was starting to fall apart again because I was aware that my "authority" was meaningless and dealing with Liam was becoming more and more taxing. That's when I took an extended break from this game. When I came back, I aired all of my grievances with the game and over the period of a month there was a very slow back and forth. I informed other ToG members (including Liam's brother, Bort / Brian) of what was going on and my plan to finish it with Laz, since we were the only ones moving the game forward. I received a vote of confidence from everyone I spoke to. This all ended in a 3 hour call between me and Liam where I confronted him directly on everything. He admitted that he needs me to finish the game but said he will not leave the project and decisions need to be cleared by him. I even said to him, what do you think the public or backers would think if they knew about this? He didn't care. He didn't care that I was the only remaining original team member. I reminded him of his promise to leave if he became a negative influence. He didn't care. He knew that I was capable of getting it done, but it had to be with him in control. There was no way in hell I was going to continue working with this clown so I told him I quit. Laz left days later. I don't care about the tiny amount of productive work Liam may have done on this game, because it was based on a foundation where he was the supreme ruler of this game and he pitted team members against each other to do so. I don't care if it was done in bad faith or through incompetence. I would also say no one took more advantage of the Barkley 1 legacy and the success of the Barkley 2 Kickstarter than Liam. For those in the know, they know what I'm talking about. I'm glad that even the public, with what little they have seen of him, can see how delusional he is. I'm being extremely kind when I talk about him and even he knows that, the reason he has no rebuttal. You cannot salvage this game without him dissolving all of his rights of the contracted work done, which by my estimate is about 35% of the game. I don't know what contract Chef signed, it's possible Liam may have exclusive game rights to the music he made during his time. In some unlikely event that Liam gives up that, then you need all of the team members to consent to their work being released for free. There were about 20 people who worked on this game at some point and it would need to be determined if they have a stake from looking at contracts, etc.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:57
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Jun 4, 2019 17:03
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I think a lot of problems regarding the shortcomings of combat came down to this idea that the games' original plan was sacrosanct, and that as long as the game didn't first fit that exact plan, it could not be fairly "judged", and trying to improve the feel of combat was a waste of time. Like, there is this original idea, like a holy design document, and it's fairly complex and involves all parts of the game's gameplay loop working together, and is based around the game being an RPG first, and an action game second. So the idea is that, the shooting should remain simple, because the actual game's core lies in the special effects from the shooting, and you need to think of your shooting in terms of combat actions in a turn-based RPG, and for this to work we also need gun fusion to work, because this is how you customize your loadout and end up with more options in combat. And until the game fits that idea closely, any problems we see with the game are not yet "fair" to act on, because we are judging this incomplete execution of that underlying idea instead of the true game's core gameplay, which will still take months and months to realize, because it plugs into all of these different systems. Trying to improve enemies or combat is a waste of time, because that will all be deprecated once the game has its "proper" combat mechanics or gun fusion mechanics etc. But yeah this approach meant no playtesting would be taken seriously until everything was in place and working to the satisfaction of the original plan. And the game's combat being just one sliver of it, while the dialogue and quests were more important, were the "real" core of the game, meant this took a very long time.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:04
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I'm getting my  worth, I think. Holy moly. Thanks to the devs and related folks for sharing the details.I really hope all the gun's sprites and music gets released someday in some form at least!
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Jun 4, 2019 17:34
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Hiratio posted:There's a lot of talk of salvaging Barkley 2, making it open source, releasing a build, and so on. I fought extremely hard to try and make this game happen and it did not work. Go off king
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Jun 4, 2019 17:34
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Hiratio posted:an actual loving nightmare To be honest this is surprising but unfortunately it all also 100% absolutely believable knowing the people involved. I have no reason to believe this is anything other than the truth. I want to add that bhroom (Liam) is in a really lovely seat right now and I sincerely wish him the best. It's not his fault that the game become a now-deceased overscoped nightmare. He is however a very key reason that we never could do anything to prevent what's happening now, and obviously for the animosity towards this project. Which brings to mind the Gelatinous Cube, which I want to talk about soon.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:50
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Every time you guys talk about how impossible it was to get the combat working properly I think of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KQNpQD8Ayo
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Jun 4, 2019 17:58
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Smdh at liam, personally
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Jun 4, 2019 18:00
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I'm here for the Gelatinous Cube.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:00
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Bisse posted:Which brings to mind the Gelatinous Cube, which I want to talk about soon. 
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Jun 4, 2019 18:01
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i append my offer of hiring all barkley 2 devs for nothing, to make lovely basketball themed rip offs of candy crush in a remorseless sell out gesture, by adding that my managerial style is inspired by the tao and wu wei, which is to say, capriciously absent and free from all direction or input beyond absent minded smiling and nodding
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Jun 4, 2019 18:04
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I have no idea what the gelatinous cube is is this a metaphor or
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Jun 4, 2019 18:09
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The real Barkley 2 was the friends we made along the way.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:25
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Bisse posted:\ Liam sounds a lot like somebody who is actually directly responsible for continuing to poo poo in his own seat and should have probably given up whatever hold he has over this project instead of choking it to death with his general incompetence and mismanagement. But that's just my impression from reading these past updates .
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Jun 4, 2019 18:28
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FrankieSmileShow posted:I have no idea what the gelatinous cube is it's my devastated junk
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Jun 4, 2019 18:39
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as cool as the gun's system sounds the game should've had pretty simple combat poo poo. i wanted it for the writing/characters/joke's. why wasn't bball tactics the combat?? Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 18:43
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Big Mad Drongo posted:Barkley 2 has finally achieved true Goon Project status! The first half of Barkley 2 consists of the real game, but the second half is actually Zybourne Clock.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:44
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Kung-Fu Jesus posted:The firefighting game with aliens was fantastic. I still think about it a lot. I remember the game pack! Yeah, that twist with the alien invasion was super cool. I had a lot of fun playing through all those games with friends, easily worth the $60 I spent on the kickstarter. Thanks to all the Barkley people for making wonderful games, and I look forward to trying any other stuff you make in the future. Barkley 2 might not be happening, but the people are still around, and still making things. Frankie's horror RPG, cboy's writing in Katana Zero, that zoo game twitter... It's good the kickstarter didn't keep them from creating other things.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:45
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avoraciopoctules posted:
Laz and GZ also have their Phucker series. https://gzstorm.itch.io/phucker-in-the-woods-0
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Jun 4, 2019 19:00
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avoraciopoctules posted:zoo game twitter What’s that?
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Jun 4, 2019 19:02
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Sounds like an absolute clusterfuck with regards to everything from project management to business management. I feel bad for Bort/Brian, it's got to be really uncomfortable when it's your brother being a lovely influence wrecking the project and evening agreeing it'd be progressing better without him. Hiratio posted:This all ended in a 3 hour call between me and Liam where I confronted him directly on everything. He admitted that he needs me to finish the game but said he will not leave the project and decisions need to be cleared by him. I even said to him, what do you think the public or backers would think if they knew about this? He didn't care. He didn't care that I was the only remaining original team member. I reminded him of his promise to leave if he became a negative influence. He didn't care. He knew that I was capable of getting it done, but it had to be with him in control. There was no way in hell I was going to continue working with this clown so I told him I quit. Laz left days later. Hearing this as a backer, that's pretty disgraceful on his part. He already looked nuts on the Kickstarter post and Twitter but I've lost all sympathy for that guy right now. Also nth-ing that I'm going to check out Katana Zero and that Astrojone game posted upthread (when that comes out).
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Jun 4, 2019 19:15
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NickPancakes posted:Laz and GZ also have their Phucker series. https://gzstorm.itch.io/phucker-in-the-woods-0 For Phucker in the Woods, it's probably better to wait for the Steam version which fixes some things and makes Hiroshi into a less of a hideous piece of poo poo / almost tolerable. For Phucker in the Gulag though you should go for the Itchio version because Steam was out of it's mind and wanted us to censor the game, so it's the inferior version. As for something that people might actually be interested in (I hope this time I knew how to embed images (getting the link on imgur is enough, right?)):      I'm not sure if all of these are up to date because I would try to spice them up almost every day and then it takes two million years to compile these overview images so I would only do that very rarely. There's more but I don't care enough to go through the hassle of getting them.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:30
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What on earth was the Grand Vision for this game that turned it into such an unmanageable lovely snowball, when all literally anyone wanted was memes and jokes in a slightly more refined deployment of RPG maker aping FF-style combat--or the approximation of such in Unity or whatever?
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Jun 4, 2019 19:35
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they were using gamemaker.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:38
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It sounds less and less like scope creep, although that was there to an extent, and more like lack of any sanity checks. Yikes.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:42
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They got the B-Ball madness. Sad, really.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:49
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Willie Tomg posted:What on earth was the Grand Vision for this game that turned it into such an unmanageable lovely snowball, when all literally anyone wanted was memes and jokes in a slightly more refined deployment of RPG maker aping FF-style combat--or the approximation of such in Unity or whatever? That's not what the devs were interested in making. They'd all grown as people and game developers in the years between the original game and the kickstarter, and wanted to make a "real game" instead of just a joke delivery system. Barkley SUAJG was brought up as a hilarious meme and an oddity but nobody thought of it as a good game, and many didn't think of it as a real game at all. I can completely understand why they wanted to make something that wasn't just a hilarious footnote to gaming, but an actual respectable project that was also hilarious. E: Sorry to speak for others, I'll shut up now.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:49
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Gortarius posted:For Phucker in the Woods, it's probably better to wait for the Steam version which fixes some things and makes Hiroshi into a less of a hideous piece of poo poo / almost tolerable. I know you mentioned that the artificial limitation of having the maps be all interconnected was a mistake but they do look nice don't they lol
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Jun 4, 2019 19:49
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From what I understand, this gun combat thing with gun fusion etc and this general story was always the idea for Barkley2, something that was conceptualized even before Barkley1 came out. A lot of the complexity was for quests though. The combat was just the part that me and Bisse were most familiar with I think, on my end from working with all the guns so much. I never had to tangle with the quest and dialogue scripting stuff that much, though I did to a lot of work related to them through sprite assets. That part of the story is being a bit underrepresented here I think, most details on specific issues and complexity coming out about combat. Im sure Laz and GZ would have a lot of stories about the more writing/quest oriented side of it.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:51
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NickPancakes posted:Laz and GZ also have their Phucker series. https://gzstorm.itch.io/phucker-in-the-woods-0 What, WHAT? That's THEM? I knew the humor seemed familiar. I'm going to go and buy Phucker in the Gulag on Steam right n... Oh, it's... Free? HOW DO I GIVE YOU MONEY Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 19:51
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Lurdiak posted:That's not what the devs were interested in making. They'd all grown as people and game developers in the years between the original game and the kickstarter, and wanted to make a "real game" instead of just a joke delivery system. Barkley SUAJG was brought up as a hilarious meme and an oddity but nobody thought of it as a good game, and many didn't think of it as a real game at all. I can completely understand why they wanted to make something that wasn't just a hilarious footnote to gaming, but an actual respectable project that was also hilarious. Barkley 2 could have been a Walking Simulator and they could have gotten both the fan satisfaction AND the respectibility down. 
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Jun 4, 2019 19:58
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mycot posted:Barkley 2 could have been a Walking Simulator and they could have gotten both the fan satisfaction AND the respectibility down. walk around an empty B-Ball stadium and pick up recordings of barkley talking about being a lesbian
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Jun 4, 2019 20:22
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Jun 4, 2019 20:23
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These ideas really sound like enter the gungeon for some reason
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Jun 4, 2019 20:24
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Uncle Wemus posted:These ideas really sound like enter the gungeon for some reason yeah not gonna lie i'd be completely fine with barkley 2 being barkley with this supposed gungeon-like combat but without gungeon's roguelike aspect
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Jun 4, 2019 20:26
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