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probably a bit of sunk cost fallacy going on there, too
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Jun 5, 2019 19:11
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all those gun's will be lost in time, like b-balls on suburban lawns
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Jun 5, 2019 19:14
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Lutha Mahtin posted:probably a bit of sunk cost fallacy going on there, too Oh yeah, sunk cost fallacy and pride go hand in hand. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 19:15
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There are, other things aside, at least tens of thousands of dollars worth of high quality graphics made for this game, finished polished and formatted. Hard/impossible to reuse or resell but already a solid asset backbone even if a project were started from scratch. I can easily see how that would affect decision making.
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Jun 5, 2019 19:15
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Bisse posted:~~The Undying Screaming Baby~~ Are you guys sure the Barkley 2 Kickstarter wasn't a decade long performance art exhibit
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Jun 5, 2019 19:22
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CYBEReris posted:all those gun's will be lost in time, like b-balls on suburban lawns time to slam
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Jun 5, 2019 19:32
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I enjoyed the basement streams and this thread. if anyone still really wants an RPG about shooting guns that has a bunch of confusing systems in place and nothing seems to make sense but it's a finished product i recommend playing E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy. e: I Pledged $315 And All I Got Was This Sexy Cyberdwarf Pillow handsome only face fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 19:35
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Midjack posted:If anyone has anecdotes about the vaguely phallic red pepper enemies I’m all ears here. 'peno stags. Rhopunzel posted:These are the worst kinds of people to work for in gamedev. There is nothing more infuriating being told how to do your job and how long something should take by someone who doesn't write a line of code or place a single pixel. gently caress them. Having ideas isn't a job. Telling people what to do isn't a job. I dunno, seems like they could have used a manager of some kind! Krakox posted:Hell that one dudes been making a game where you can see princess peache's titties since 2013 just dump the assetts link Alan Smithee posted:at least we'll always have Shaq Fu 2 Barkley 2 is still better than shaq fu 2. In it's current state. Rectal Death Adept posted:Calling it. The guy who took complete control of the intellectual property then used that control to browbeat everyone off of the project one by one is now worried that aforementioned control means he is solely responsible for violating Kickstarter's Terms and failing to deliver. That's why he and his brother are both concerned with speaking in the present/future tense of a game that everyone quit working on. I mean, they're not accountable for anything, so why does it matter? Hiratio and co I'm curious what made you decide now of all times was the time to talk about this.  Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 19:59
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Rotten Red Rod posted:So... Pride. Seems more like ego.
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Jun 5, 2019 20:11
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I think he mentioned that he became aware of this thread when people were posting about the Steam game he and Laz worked on, and was surprised to learn that there was an active thread for Barkley 2 on the internet
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Jun 5, 2019 20:15
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As an aside, I think the development of Into The Breach has some really interesting parallels with this game. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/03/25/into-the-breach-creators-almost-gave-up/ https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/03/05/into-the-breach-interface-design/ Crowdfunding doesn't remove the need for management, producers, editors, or anything like that. They're not just there to provide money and be evil, cutting down on creator's visions. There HAS to be someone who is capable of getting things done. 
Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 20:25
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Rotten Red Rod posted:So... Pride. How about, an incomplete understanding of game development, as opposed to ur in-depth psychoanalysis
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Jun 5, 2019 20:33
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Gortarius posted:I'm up for a few more years of working for nothing to complete someone else's game that is already several years late and has gigantic issues that we will just pretend will be magically fixed when Johnny Appleseed jumps out of the bushes one day and does it for us.
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Jun 5, 2019 20:35
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Unlucky7 posted:If Bhroom did admit the project was dead, what could he be in trouble for? The entire chance of project failure is baked into crowdfunding, and by all indications the money is gone, but also used in the exact ways it was supposed to have been used. What exactly is the albatross around his neck that is keeping him from affirming what everyone else involved with the project has said? See the version of the Kickstarter Terms of Use the project ran under (and which therefore form part of the implicit contract between backers and ToG): https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 It specifically says that project owners have to either deliver what they promised or give refunds to backers. Later versions of the Terms of Use amended this to say that if a refund wasn't possible you had to provide a breakdown of where the money went - but that's no help to Bhroom because the project ran under the old terms. How much problem this is for Bhroom's credit rating/personal legal liability depends a lot on how ToG was set up as a company to begin eoth.
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Jun 5, 2019 20:42
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Kickstarter Post is up (on time??): https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/talesofgames/barkley-2-an-rpg-sequel-to-barkley-shut-up-and-jam/posts/2528443 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay so next update. Firstly, I want to say that I am beholden to you the backers over the fate of Barkley. I personally want to release the game at some point which is why I’m still working on it. I want to solve both relationships with other team members and also continue to honor the original design and layout of the game. I do, however, think you are all owed something SOON to at least show that this wasn’t a take-the-money-and-run situation. There is a game to be played here, with some holes albeit. So please leave in the comments if you’d like a demo, I assume most would and hopefully a discussion about that can happen. This would be like a “floor demo,” and you could certainly call it a vertical slice. It would be balanced to the best of my ability with some general information to guide you at the beginning. Despite what people might think, I don’t have a fundamental issue with also releasing the source code. I want to take the appropriate steps towards doing so first. I think an explanation of the state of the game is justly warranted, and then explanations or videos and demos of what we have done. All that is much more understandable to most backers than just a GM1.4 project, and I think is the more appropriate first steps before dumping everything without backup information. Also, the rest of the team, past and present would need to be consulted. I think there are 4 topics that should be covered in the coming days. 1 – what’s in the game now, 2 – what’s not in the game, 3 – the history of the development, 4 – the future. Each one has merits but instead of dropping a wall of screen caps and then a development wish list, I think I’ll try a little mixture of what is in and what is not and maybe how that would influence what can be done in the future. (I’ll save the history for a larger update, as obviously it’s a sensitive subject and I have no interest at all with pointing fingers, nor do I have the right to.) I’ll cover combat in the game for this post. In a few days: exploration and questing. NOTE: I fully realize and agree that the story and quests in B2 were a much bigger motivator to funding this game than the combat. I agree that the next post about that topic is going to be more important and consequential. I will immediately start working on that update after this one and put it up soon. It will also confront an issue that I think has been assumed but not accurate: that this game is not the game originally planned. I believe it is. I can collect and release some design documents about these as well but here is the basic idea illustrated in the Quick Menu: I’m showing this not to surprise anyone about how COMPLETE the game is, or even prove that “See! Work was done!” I’m just attempting to explain the systems that work in the game currently. This will allow me to better break down what is not in game more clearly below. This Quickmenu is newer and is pretty close to feature complete. It is a bit messy and places like the 6,7 and 8 needing visual sprucing, but it does the job. As a refresher for the idea of the gameplay, it’s essentially a circular explore-collect-combine mechanic that increases the strength of both the player and the weapons they use. It was claimed before on Kickstarter and other places, but the system is best described as Borderlands meets Shin Megami Tensei. This requires you to collect gun’s, then selectively breed (fuse) them to get the appropriate effects for what you are looking to do. Okay so now what is in the game: You can run out of ammo, refill ammo, level up, get more gun’s, breed gun’s and explore the world. Naturally aiming and shooting (combat) and losing health/dying is all in the game as well. I’d have been living in the woods by now if those core aspects weren’t working. The game-cycle works, with balance eventually either breaking down or being a little too hard from the start of the game. We just need a lot more TLC on the balance (see below where I talk about playtesting.) To me, the big thing that is missing, or rather, not that great: Zaubers. They themselves are fine and work, all 5 of them, but they lack the imperative in combat to use them often, or even at all most of the time. Zaubers (or another type of secondary combat mechanic to replace it), hamper some of the combat feel in the game and is a thing that I personally think should be worked on. There are ideas for what we could do, but essentially that’s what I consider the major combat mechanic that could be worked on and would take time. Also missing from game in no particular order: · Zaubers (read above.) · Improved Quickmenu – alsa stated above. This is just second polished version of the menu. · Fully Realized Prefix 2s – the second Prefixes in the game are linked to the periodic effect of the gun. I’ve explained it before but it’s kind of like applying status effects like poison or slow ala standard RPGs. They used to be much more complicated, and therefore pretty buggy. Laz reduced their complexity and then they were further reduced by GZ. They are fine now but could be helped by shaving the number down (done through the genetic breeding system). Right now, there is space for a whopping 60 of them, admittedly too many. There is some happy medium between interesting effects and doable amount. · Suffixes – same story with suffixes but there are less of these and they are all kind of just joke’s. What we have can stay the same with what we have but deserve some polish for sure. · More dumb enemies. We have some that are robust intelligent baddies, and others that are kind of dumb and simple. We have plenty of the complicated enemies and need a few more simple enemies to round out the game and make areas feel uniform in population. As an example, the Swamps have about 5 dynamic enemy types, whereas the Mountain Pass only really has one. · Equipment and Candy – the systems for developing these and adding them to the game are totally in. You can buy them and equip them. There aren’t a lot of variations of Equipment yet, the game is missing my guess 5-or-so types of equipment and a bunch of candy. Most of this is just dependent on further combat balancing. · Boss(es) – this is an interesting topic because the game has a few and only TRULY needs one more: The Final Boss. The first boss in the game is a giant catfish that is playable but is missing some gorgeous sprite animations that Frankie drew for it but haven’t been hooked up yet. There is another humanoid miniboss, and big crab thing, and a bullet hell boss in Brain City that also function but some need a little sprite love. The plan was always to just get to the final boss as soon as possible once issues with animation and AI were ironed out or accepted. Speaking of, AI and Animation code has always been in a feasible-but-really-hard-to-work-with status and we’d be benefitted by a rebuild. That of course, would be a much larger undertaking and was always just a footnote during our discussions on how to make more bosses. There are also other prototypes of bosses that have been sitting around and could get a treatment into the game but are certainly not considered “required.” · Balance – the game is unbalanced, as anyone might expect. The game assuredly needs playtesting. The reason we didn’t playtest besides at conventions for the first 3 years is that the combat was simply broken, and if 95% of your testing base comes back with the same complaint that “enemies and gun’s don’t work” then it’s kind of redundant. We have had play-test worthy combat for 2 years now: once the Gun’s breeding was kind of locked in, and especially with the introduction of the new quickmenu this year. The reason for not getting playtesters since that time is simply the same reason for not updating: It was a mistake and I was always waiting on that big success story to roll up (as covered in last update). I cut out some explanations of design and game-intent kind of stuff because currently I just want to highlight the raw count of what is in and what is not. Is this list complete? Certainly not, but these are the big issues in my mind, and I hope would be shared with most who had worked on the game in recent times. The TIME it takes to finish these tasks and enhancements is a dilemma that has plagued development from the beginning. The answer is always “not really a lot of time IF there is constant work, constant communication, and a little bit of luck.” So, I would not hazard a number to quantify the work the game needs. Again, my goal is not to convince you this can still be done right now, it’s just to enumerate the success and failures of development so far. That said, and in conclusion: regardless of what happens to Barkley 2 in this form, I’m still going to work on it. I’m still going to try to bring the original vision of the game to life, but I don’t consider this some type of hostage situation where I am dangling a broken game over the masses. You have all been extraordinarily patient about these things, and I am always blown away by the constructive feedback, negative and positive from the backers. Whether or not I am working on the game with the team that I so dearly miss and wish that we could reconstruct our friendships or not, I’m just going to dump as much of my feelings and outlook into these updates in the coming days. I appreciate everyone reading, and I look forward to continuing the conversation. Give me a moment and I’ll start replying to direct messages to me as well. Apologies for the delay on that since Sunday. Thank you, Liam Truecon420 fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 20:53
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I agree that everyone should probably let it die etc. and that it would be the best and it would help raise the possibility of you all being pals again. But at the same time, god loving dammit I really want to A. see all the art B. hear all the music and C. Read all the dialogue. If there is ANY way that those 3 things can happen while also providing closure, and repairing friendships, and avoiding some kind of lawsuit, that's what I want to do. Whatever the easiest and safest way to do that. Some people say "just make an RPG maker game with standard gameplay but the good assets" and none of you will ever loving do that, and that's fine. Just, whatever is even less ambitious than that. I get me some space-duergar lore. And uh, if you're giving up all the gameplay plans, could someone maybe give us the actual plot synopsis? Hoopz wakes up 1000s of years later with amnesia and a mohawk on a giant space station ruled by Cuchulainn, and...........? handsome only face posted:I enjoyed the basement streams and this thread. if anyone still really wants an RPG about shooting guns that has a bunch of confusing systems in place and nothing seems to make sense but it's a finished product i recommend playing E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy. DUDE. Dude. How did I nor anybody else make this connection? Barkley 2 was basically trying to just be EYE Divine Cybermancy. It's so obvious! It's a janky action RPG with intentionally opaque and complex RPG mechanics, set in a silly grimdark cyberpunk space dystopia with a slick aesthetic that is committed to taking itself serious internally (that is, the characters treat the world as serious) Not to imply that some French Warhammer nerds with a Source devkit could compare to Frankie's art, ofc. Liquid Dinosaur fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 20:57
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The "zaubers decrease your stats" thing actually sounds like a great idea to me. It's a way to make them actually a last resort, and would give you more of a feeling of being road-weary when you get to the next save point. You'd just need to make sure the zaubers are powerful enough to be worth it.
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Jun 5, 2019 21:05
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Warthur posted:See the version of the Kickstarter Terms of Use the project ran under (and which therefore form part of the implicit contract between backers and ToG):
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Jun 5, 2019 21:12
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Truecon420 posted:Kickstarter Post is up (on time??): https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/talesofgames/barkley-2-an-rpg-sequel-to-barkley-shut-up-and-jam/posts/2528443 Jeez, this is sisyphean. I guess at this point the best outcome is none of the original creators get sucked back in, and just focus on their own projects, cuz there's NO way he's finishing it. Props to him for actually updating in the 3 days window he gave himself. Doesn't really excuse the 2-year silence before that...
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Jun 5, 2019 21:14
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Saw "butt candy" in the image and I'm immediately sold Echoing the notion that probably the best priority should be repairing friendships but I do feel that the game is salvageable but i need of some new and experienced help Uncle Wemus fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 21:16
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one thing that stands out to me in taht update is:quote:It will also confront an issue that I think has been assumed but not accurate: that this game is not the game originally planned. I believe it is. this sorta reflects what some of the devs have been posting, that the original design document was held as some kind of holy bible despite being 100% unworkable in practice. i'm not sure if liam is misinterpreting people saying they dont want the game if the original devs arent working on it anymore as people saying they don't think he will make the original pitched game personally i was just looking forward to a b-ball cyberpocalypse sequel and couldnt give a single poo poo about how it played. the gun fusions sound like my kind of poo poo but i was more looking forward to some joke's
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Jun 5, 2019 21:25
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Uncle Wemus posted:Saw "butt candy" in the image and I'm immediately sold 
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Jun 5, 2019 21:26
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November 2023 is like, 4.5 years away. Two people committing to the repo 4x a month *could* perhaps release a heavily pared down version of the game by then. Whether or not that should or will happen is a completely different story, because it shouldn't and in all likelihood won't - but the truly faithful still have cause to believe in t h e p r o m i s e
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Jun 5, 2019 21:28
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I just gotta say looking at this image is like a nightmare. This poo poo looks confusing as gently caress
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Jun 5, 2019 21:31
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Truecon420 posted:Kickstarter Post is up (on time??): https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/talesofgames/barkley-2-an-rpg-sequel-to-barkley-shut-up-and-jam/posts/2528443 This is just awkward. It's obvious that trying to honour the 'original design' is one of the major problems. Unless an eccentric billionaire decides to come and fund everything for fun, it's over. Regardless of it's of his own making or not, I'd just feel bad to see someone trapped and trying to escape indie game developer hell for the next six years. quote:Despite what people might think, I don’t have a fundamental issue with also releasing the source code. That's encouraging though. I guess I don't care what he does for the next decade as long as he sorts out releasing the stuff that already exists.
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Jun 5, 2019 21:34
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Well, he wants to finish it, and seems to think he can. Hopefully the plan isn't just "hope the old gang comes back."
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Jun 5, 2019 21:35
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I, uh, I dunno about this
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Jun 5, 2019 21:36
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The REAL Goobusters posted:I just gotta say looking at this image is like a nightmare. This poo poo looks confusing as gently caress I don't think that's there all the time, it's something you pop in when you need to do something in the menu during combat. Or out of combat maybe. Considering that, I think it's okay. You just have an inventory/equipment on the left, status on the right, pushable buttons on the top.
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Jun 5, 2019 21:41
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Stabbatical posted:Unless an eccentric billionaire decides to come and fund everything for fun, it's over.
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Jun 5, 2019 21:44
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DACK FAYDEN posted:let's soak the goddamn Minecraft Nazi for money 
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Jun 5, 2019 21:46
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Stabbatical posted:Unless an eccentric billionaire decides to come and fund everything for fun, it's over. Quick! Someone tweet at Elon Musk
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Jun 5, 2019 21:46
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Dezinus posted:Well, he wants to finish it, and seems to think he can. Hopefully the plan isn't just "hope the old gang comes back." the plan is to either: A) get random coders to honour the holy game design doc for free B) get money from ???? to get random coders to honour the holy game design doc (in some tweet he said he's looked at taking out loans  )C) lure the original devs back to honour the holy game design doc
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Jun 5, 2019 21:46
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Hentai Jihadist posted:the plan is to either: I feel like he could possibly lure at least some back if he were to offer his resignation and full rights
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Jun 5, 2019 21:52
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Truecon420 posted:Kickstarter update AKA total baloney Jesus loving christ. Why can't he just let it die? That update is basically a collection of varying degrees of deception and hot air. This is ridiculous. This is somehow becoming a worse nightmare. I have to warn GZ not to look at it or he might hork so hard that he dies on the spot. I'm not sure I even know what to say anymore. The worst thing is that somehow all of a sudden people in the KS comments are eating it all up, hook, line, and sinker. If this would have just died off, it would have ended in a wet fart. Now it's headed for a total catastrophe because the house of cards is being rebuilt on sand. Me and GZ talked a lot about how to bring this thing to completion over the years, and if it even could be completed, especially near the end of 2018 before it all fell apart. We both agreed that drastic measures and cuts were needed. Had GZ been given the helm it would have taken us year or two years of work to get it done, with a lot of cuts made. With the rate of work being done on this since me and GZ left it would take literal centuries to complete. This is not a hyperbole. The amount of code that needs to be typed in there, the amount of writing that needs to be done, the amount of graphics and audio that need to be figured out is staggering, and the GIT log has these gaps of several days and weeks, almost a month, when no work whatsoever is done. When there is an entry in GIT it's small potato stuff, something you can do in 15 minutes at most. Also who is going to code all these things and fix all these issues? Me and GZ are gone and we are so loving salty we are never coming back to Barkley. I'm not bringing this up to say that hey we are some master game developers, no one else can do it but us. I'm bringing this up because we were there for years and know what systems there are, where most of the problems lay and that no one is allowed to fix them unless it's done 100% like it was envisioned in some fever dream. Who would ever volunteer, and then stay on board this project after this debacle was brought to light? I have to re-read this update just to make sure I'm not hallucinating.
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Jun 5, 2019 21:55
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Hentai Jihadist posted:the plan is to either: I guess it's C? quote:Tales of Game's Creator 32 minutes ago Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 21:55
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Gortarius posted:Jesus loving christ. Why can't he just let it die? You wouldn't even consider coming back if Liam gave up all his rights on the project? No ownership, no stake, no authority, just gone and GZ was given the lead?
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Jun 5, 2019 21:59
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Rotten Red Rod posted:I guess it's C?
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Jun 5, 2019 22:03
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:do they have any contracts and company ownership documents written up at all what do you think
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Jun 5, 2019 22:04
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Stabbatical posted:what do you think Lost in a flood.
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Jun 5, 2019 22:10
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so when does this get moved to the star citizen forum like it should have been four years ago
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Jun 5, 2019 22:14
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