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CT00 being otherwise unstoppable explains the final final boss's reaction ability, at least. Although there's still ways to set CT00 that I don't think can be countered (like Last Dance).
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Jan 21, 2013 20:06
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Archael posted:Here are some more from the top of my head: The mere fact that the AI CAN see their own reaction abilities makes me pretty convinced that it was completely intentional for the AI to ignore your reaction skills. Imagine how frustrating it would for a player to invest in reaction abilities only for them NEVER to trigger because the AI knows how to avoid them. The FFT AI is, on the whole, really good. As Archael said, it tends to be pretty good at watching the AT list, it can evaluate all available movement/action combinations (which a player cannot easily do, since once you move you can't undo it), they never make movement mistakes (misjudging where you need to be to use a skill), and it's quite savvy about statuses - doing whatever it can to avoid breaking charm, casting Innocent on itself to survive a meteor, etc. If the AI was able to see Reactions and consider hit rates beyond "does this have a 0% chance to hit?," it would be in danger of being too good to be any fun to play against. At least for first-time casual players, many of which feel Vanilla FFT is too hard as it is, with basic jobs and empty and illogical equipment and ability slots.
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Jan 21, 2013 20:28
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Actually one other AI quirk that I'm not sure was mentioned: The AI really, really prefers to move if it can, even if there's no particular benefit in doing so. It also very rarely will move and not act in a turn unless it simply can't do anything.
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Jan 21, 2013 20:43
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^^^ This is one of its greatest failings. It pisses away a lot of turns by sacrificing CT when it doesn't need to, and units hit by Don't Act will run towards a corner, effectively disabling them for longer than need be. My guess is that many of the AI's failings are there because it would be really loving hard to design around them. So if you gave the AI the ability to see reaction abilities, how do you make it decide whether or not it's worth it to physically attack this really squishy unit with, say, 66 brave and Hamedo? Should the AI attack that unit or a sturdier who'd get knocked into HP Restore territory, or maybe one with Abandon and a crazy high dodge rate? It would be a nightmare. Positioning and deciding whether or not to take the risk of an offensive action this turn would be even more difficult. Heavy neutrino fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 20:44
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Oh yeah, that's another one. AI always moves if possible. So that's a big chunk of it's CT that it always spends even if not necessary.
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Jan 21, 2013 20:48
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Heavy neutrino posted:^^^ This is one of its greatest failings. It pisses away a lot of turns by sacrificing CT when it doesn't need to, and units hit by Don't Act will run towards a corner, effectively disabling them for longer than need be. EDIT: Also I'm not sure how well the AI prioritizes MP restoration. They know when to heal, but not always when to restore MP.
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Jan 21, 2013 20:51
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Heavy neutrino posted:^^^ This is one of its greatest failings. It pisses away a lot of turns by sacrificing CT when it doesn't need to, and units hit by Don't Act will run towards a corner, effectively disabling them for longer than need be. I've wondered if it wouldn't be worth an SRPG's designers to apply slightly different AI rules to different units/teams. You could have a stupid setting, which would be great for trash mobs or unimportant story battles, where the enemy does dumb things like sub-optimally place units and not pay attention to counters. Critical story battles and boss battles could have tighter AI, where they'd move better and never fall sucker to abilities like Hamedo, for example. Anybody who's done game AI wanna weigh in on how feasible that is?
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Jan 21, 2013 21:03
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It should be possible, they just need to call different action priority trees. A dumb one could have a thought process like "Will moving put me near to the enemy? Then move." A smart one would have a thought process like "Will moving put me near to the enemy but far away from my healers and too close to a large number of enemies that will be in range to attack me? Then don't move." And a genius one would go "Do I have to move for any particular strategic reason? Is my own position perfectly defensible? Then gently caress it, I'm not the player, I got nowhere to be today."
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Jan 21, 2013 21:11
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sudonim posted:Anybody who's done game AI wanna weigh in on how feasible that is? I can tell you that each unit on a map in FFT can be locked into its own specific AI routine. You can make one unit very aggressive while another runs like a rabbit. There's also very specific AI routines which are unique to certain bosses. Later on in Chapter 4, Prufrock will face a boss that I'm not going to talk about due to spoilers that has a used-only-once AI routine that makes it stick to his starting side of the map, making the Assassination more difficult. As for more complex AI settings, those don't exist in the game. I'm not sure how feasible it would be to add them. Archael fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 21:11
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Archael posted:As for more complex AI settings, those don't exist in the game. I'm not sure how feasible it would be to add them. ...of which FFT still seems to be one of the best if not THE best. I really credit the flexibility of the class system for making this game so much drat fun to play. That sort of thing doesn't get duplicated often enough (I would be happy to be proven wrong).
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Jan 21, 2013 21:24
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Archael posted:Here are some more from the top of my head: So, as someone who never played too much FFT, how does this affect the AI's strategy? Do they go after people who can revive once Ramza is down? Do they target Ramza specifically?
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Jan 21, 2013 21:35
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Archael posted:drat man, that is very nice of you. Thank you. Not a problem, good sir  Archael posted:Unfortunately Square never added a function for how Invite affects a player. If the player gets one of his or her units Invited, the player will still retain full control of it and that unit will still be with the party when the fight is over. This would have been glorious  I'm so sad this couldn't work out, because it would have been amazing.How malleable is FFT, by the way? I know you had to remove some monsters to make room for others, but could you do the same thing for statuses? I know there isn't really much to work with, but would it be possible at least?
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Jan 21, 2013 22:02
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Gharbad the Weak posted:So, as someone who never played too much FFT, how does this affect the AI's strategy? Do they go after people who can revive once Ramza is down? Do they target Ramza specifically? It is possible to have attacks add the Crystal status I believe. As in, hit someone with it, and they go straight from alive to Crystallized. I think it's on the Vanilla Uribo's 'Please Eat' ability that kills them to level up an ally. So if you hacked in an ability that could Crystallize someone, they'd prioritize targeting Ramza with it.
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Jan 21, 2013 22:57
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Hunter Noventa posted:It is possible to have attacks add the Crystal status I believe. As in, hit someone with it, and they go straight from alive to Crystallized. I think it's on the Vanilla Uribo's 'Please Eat' ability that kills them to level up an ally.
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Jan 21, 2013 23:14
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Hunter Noventa posted:It is possible to have attacks add the Crystal status I believe. So if you hacked in an ability that could Crystallize someone, they'd prioritize targeting Ramza with it. UmbreonMessiah posted:How malleable is FFT, by the way? I know you had to remove some monsters to make room for others, but could you do the same thing for statuses? I know there isn't really much to work with, but would it be possible at least?
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Jan 21, 2013 23:18
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The original PSX also had a very small amount of RAM (2 MB), so using tree search algorithms for every possible move like in computer chess games would be impractical. Even with enough memory, it would make each AI unit take like 2 minutes per turn with the PSX's CPU. That's probably why the FFT AI just goes for the best damage or status effect opportunities.
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Jan 21, 2013 23:20
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erotic dad posted:That's probably why the FFT AI just goes for the best damage or status effect opportunities. That said, the AI with auto-crystal moves sounds absolutely terrifying. I'm so glad you didn't give the AI any of those!...right?
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Jan 21, 2013 23:31
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Regarding the potential theory that enemies can Crystallize you... According to the Accessory list at Insane Difficulty (http://www.insanedifficulty.com/index.php/Final%20Fantasy%20Tactics%201.3/accessories) Heroic Gloves can cancel Crystallize (along with Dead, Doom and Treasure)... and you can buy 'em in chapter 3. Chapter frickin' three. They're expensive as hell as well. That's why I suspect that there will be certain enemies, probably only one or two in the entire game (I hope!), that can Crystallize you in one shot. This is going to be fun... to read. ;D
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Jan 22, 2013 00:36
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sudonim posted:...of which FFT still seems to be one of the best if not THE best. I really credit the flexibility of the class system for making this game so much drat fun to play. That sort of thing doesn't get duplicated often enough (I would be happy to be proven wrong). If you haven't already, you might want to try Wild Arms XF on the PSP. It's actually much more closer to FFT than the Advance games and I'm very certain FFT was a very heavy influence including its class system.
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Jan 22, 2013 00:45
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Wild Arms XF is probably my favorite original SRPG for the PSP. One thing about it is that it's fairly difficult in the sense that fights tend to be puzzles.
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Jan 22, 2013 01:00
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Archael posted:Right. The AI is very aware that removing the Charm they applied is a bad idea. This is also why Oil used to be pointless, right? The AI said, "Oh, casting fire on this dude will remove a negative status; I shouldn't use it." Schwartzcough posted:The mere fact that the AI CAN see their own reaction abilities makes me pretty convinced that it was completely intentional for the AI to ignore your reaction skills. Imagine how frustrating it would for a player to invest in reaction abilities only for them NEVER to trigger because the AI knows how to avoid them. Yeah, it would likely turn Hamedo from "immune to Attack with a free counter when they fall for it" to "immune to attack" and magic counter to "immune to non-lethal attack magic". I wish the game had kept all reactions secret on both sides until they fired once. That'd level things out a bit, at least.
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Jan 22, 2013 01:10
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Episode 26: Grog Hill We're half way through Chapter 3 and our hero has definitely reached a low point.  The country is torn by civil war, and the Church is pulling the strings. Prufrock has been declared a heretic and an outlaw, to be hunted down and killed like a dog. A shadow conspiracy is collecting Zodiac Stones and summoning demons. On top of all that, Alma is now being held hostage, and the only thing Prufrock has going for him is an ancient book that says the fantasy Bible is wrong.  Whatever this rear end in a top hat wants, now is definitely not a good time.  Well, this is a bit odd. He doesn't look like a Templar or Inquisitor and isn't wearing Hokuten or Nanten livery.  Further, Riovanes is the capital of Fovoham, which has so far stayed out of the Lion War. How they got Alma, and what they might want with the Scriptures, is, at this point, a mystery.  We're given a little choice here that doesn't really affect anything.  But everyone knows reading is for NERDS!  Malak will make fun of you if you pick 'no'.  Either way, we've got the Germonik Scriptures and they've got Alma, so an exchange is the order of the day. Maybe we can get Mustadio to whip up a fake book like he did with the Holy Stone?  Here's our new destination: Riovanes Castle. Like I mentioned, it's the capital of Fovoham, ruled by Grand Duke Gelkanis Barinten. During the middle of the Fifty Years War, the nation of Romanda, to the north, seized Ivalice's vulnerability and launched an invasion across the Rhana Strait (the body of water directly north of Fovoham). Most of the Ivalician army was caught up fighting Ordallia at the time, but Barinten held off the attack (through some less-than-noble tactics) long enough for the rest of Ivalice's forces to send the Romandans packing.  Before we head out, let's see how Delita is doing...  Ovelia's not to happy with all the “help” she's been getting.  drat Delita. You cold.  But not that cold.  It's a valid question. Remember that Ovelia was specifically groomed to be an heir to the throne by the aristocracy, who wanted to shift power away from the royal family (re: the Queen).  She was probably kept isolated to prevent her from forming any bonds or alliances, so that when exactly this sort of situation occurred, she would have no one to turn to except the nobles that arranged for her adoption as Princess.   This is where Delita gets awfully complicated. Up till now we've seen the frustrated, angry youth and the callous, clever manipulator.   In many ways, what we're seeing from Delita here is a bit of a parallel to what we just heard Wiegraf say.  Both men held strong ideals, and in the end both men set them aside.  But where Wiegraf pledged his soul to the devil...  ...Delita still has a bit of the optimistic young squire left in him.  Of course, it's pretty obvious that it's not really Ovelia he's talking to here.  To us, at least. Returning to our heroes...  It seems we've stumbled upon a group of Nanten deserters.  It's not hard to understand that many peasants have just had enough of the war.  Neither Larg nor Goltana has shown that they care even the slightest bit about commoners' lives, so why should the commoners care who wins the regency?  Unfortunately, that whole 'wanted man' thing has come back to bite us in the rear end.  Listen guy, you really do not want to do this.  Seriously, not a good time to go pissing Prufrock off, especially not when you're standing between him and Riovanes.  Well, at least he's right about that last bit.  Before the fighting can commence, however, a strange young boy appears in a flash of light.  You're in the wrong game is where you are!  And with the addition of some weird kid to the battlefield, the action begins! Marche fights as a Guest for our team, and while he's not particularly strong, it's nice to have another warm body, at least. Anybody approaching this fight like the absolute cakewalk it was in vanilla is in for a rude awakening.  Even the lone Squire on the enemy team is an asskicker. Those two boosted Ice Brands means he can hit for more than three hundred damage a turn.  Oh, and the Chemists are pretty dangerous too. Here's our second rare Steal in a row. The Magic Cannon works like the Summon Gun, and shoots either Explosion, Chain Lightning, or Blizzard. The Magic Cannon is generally not as strong as the Summon Gun so I find it a little strange that the latter appears before the former, and that they should appear back-to-back in any order. Obviously I'm still going to steal them both, plus probably the Feather Mantles.  Alright let's get this thang started.  Ooof. Disabling that Squire is actually super important because he will wreck your poo poo and starts close enough to do it immediately.  Surprisingly, he's not the fastest enemy unit, which is actually a big bummer. Iago would have been able to Choco Star him except that drat Samurai moved directly in the way.   Obviously, poor Iago gets immediately killed in response. Remember, the Squire's dealing that 156 damage twice.  The Samurai can't get into Draw Out range on the first turn, but at least one of them has some spellcasting.  However, trying to charge a spell while Fluellen is next on the AT is a bad idea. And no, this is not a critical hit. Whale Whisker + Two Hands means that for every point of MA, Fluellen hits for 32 damage. Add on the bonus against charging units and you can see some sick numbers.  Of course, with a pair of Chemists running about, the downed Samurai is quickly revived.  And here we see the first instant of Power Source. It is a motherfucker.  Remember how Elixir was taken out of the game? Well, not exactly. Instead, it actually got renamed, and now only enemies can use it. From here on out, any enemy with Item can and will heal themselves to full health/magic, instantly and for free, a literally infinite number of times. This is exactly as much fun as it sounds.  Steal Heart is such a tease.  You'll note that Agrias is hitting for exactly the same amount as the Squire. This is because she too has an Ice Brand (poached from a Blue Dragon) and is boosting it, and they both have the same PA.  One of the other Samurai has Jump and a Spear equipped (an Oberisk, I believe) so she too can hit just about anybody from a good distance.  But she just doesn't hit all that hard. Her PA isn't fantastic (Samurai have access to very little PA-boosting gear) and Two Hands doesn't work with Jump. The only worry here is that she can pick off already-wounded units that you might be trying to hide.  Fairy's incantation.  Marche likes to use magic, despite having a terrible MP pool.  But reviving Iago was about the most useful thing he could do here, so I can't complain.  This is another battle where it's going to be really tough to win a damage race ( Power Source ) so I fall back, as usual, to status effects. And here's one paying off right now!  I like to imagine everyone scooting back an inch when they see her whip out that katana, and then...nothing.  Choco Star has a magnificent hit rate by this point in the game, coming up on 80%.  I was trying to get Iago away from the Squire, but the dude just followed him. Fortunately, he really though Iago needed to be cured of Frog. You go, dude.  Of course, I totally misjudged my positioning. Agrias blocks the Chain Lightning, but the Confused Samurai is snapped back to reality and Iago is blasted back to a single feather. Hey, I never said I was good at this game.  Fluellen is a murder machine, even with next-to-no skills. From here on she'll be my anti-Elixir gal. Can't Power Source from the ground!  Mosfungus Bomb is pretty sexy too. Dat AoE Slow.  I had no idea it triggered Dragon Spirit, though. Learn something new every day.  Marche continues to drop Summons.  They're not very impressive. That damage is pretty pitiful, even on a big AoE, but at least the Samurai's MP Switch is out of the way for a real attack to go through.  The Chemists are pretty good about sandbagging (they tend to keep away from the frontlines well). It's frustrating, but on the other hand they could be blasting my team with Magic Cannons. There's really not a whole lot of strategy in this battle, to be honest. There are two main ways to go: you can either bring some really mobile, high-damage units to blitz the Chemists right from the start, in which case you need to be prepared to weather a couple of nasty Draw Out rounds without dying -or- you can try to catch the Chemists in an unfavorable revival-loop by putting pressure on the Samurai and keeping them from getting turns so that you can wear the enemy down. The former is faster but riskier, since fast attack teams rarely have a lot of endurance. The latter is obviously slower, and depends more on the AI, but keeps your team largely out of harm's way.  New Draw Out animation for you guys. When faced with constant Phoenix Down spam, instant AoE attacks are usually the answer. Draw Out is particularly dangerous on this map because of all the wide, flat spaces, perfect for clumping units up. The terrain isn't particularly hard to navigate, either, so a Draw Out user can easily get in a perfect position. Changing the vanilla Archers to Samurai here was pretty drat nasty on Archael's part.   Damage Split! Probably the Reaction skill I like to see the least on enemy units.  Agrias has worst compat with the Samurai in the back, which is why her damage is so garbage. She also fails to drop the one in the front. Bleh.  The AI usually likes to avoid murdering its own units.  Not that it was a terrible play or anything.  Fortunately, I can do some sandbagging of my own. Mustadio is an Engineer with Item and Throw Item, and probably will be for most of the rest of the game.  That poor Confused Squire is still wandering around the bottom terrace with no idea what's going on.  Marche decides to show off one of his unique skills. The skill description says he throws a snowball with a rock hidden in it. Marche is kind of a dick.  Agrias has gotten a big enough MP pool that White Magic makes a good secondary, though Item is still an excellent choice. Punch Art would be okay too, but I really don't want to equip Martial Arts over Concentrate/Attack UP.  Fluellen's got White Magic also (though she only has three skills unlocked for it) and uses it well, owing to her high MA needed for the Whale Whisker. Usually I prefer to have her knocking units down rather than picking them back up, but I wanted to get Prufrock out of critical here.  Or, more specifically, out of Magic Cannon range. Remember, I'm trying to keep the Chemists on the defensive, so I don't want them to be able to score easy K.O.'s. Also, I want to steal those Magic Cannons, so having Fluellen just walk up and wreck the guy would make that more difficult.  Also also, checking out the AT told me that Prufrock would get a turn before the Samurai got to go, so I can just re-K.O. her without worry. Remember folks, learn to love that AT list!  We've reached the end-game in this battle, so it's time to start disabling the enemy so I can Steal a bunch of good stuff. If only the RNG would cooperate...   They can still put up a bit of a fight, don't get me wrong, but I've got all the momentum so it's just a matter of time, really.  Especially when I've got a unit that can OHKO anybody on the field.  As usual, there'll be some time skips here. The rest of the battle isn't very interesting.  It's mostly just cleanup on the remaining dangerous enemies.  Gotta keep Marche from killing my Steal targets.  Status effects miss a lot.  Some crystal collection helps bring Fluellen up to speed with abilities.  A single Magic Cannon shot is fired.   But Prufrock quickly nabs it.  Carabini Mail adds +1 Speed, which is loving awesome for heavy armor units, who are usually pretty slow.  Feather Mantles aren't rare, but I won't be able to buy them for awhile. With 30% P-EV, they're a staple in Abandon builds.  With one Chemist stripped bare, I move on to reviving the other.  I love how happy Chocobos look when they get a heal.  A second Ice Brand isn't amazing (really only Agrias needs one) but eh, it's free.  Yoink.  Double yoink.  Carabini count = two. Very nice!  With the last enemy down, Prufrock sneaks in a major diss. I think he's supposed to be saying something like “Was this [fighting] really the answer?” but I like to imagine he's just talking trash.  The war trophies are pretty crappy, but we stole/found a bunch of sweet gear so who cares? Two Magic Cannnons, two Feather Mantles, two Carabini Mails, an Ice Brance, and a Black Robe is quite the haul.  Also, new unit!  Later, after Iago has eaten all the bodies...  Well, it's not like they left you much choice. Balbanes probably would have slaughtered them even harder.  Oh hey, it's that Nanten pursuit unit the Squire was going on about. And look who's leading it.  Prufrock sharp like knife.  Olan is a pretty cool dude.  I guess we did sort of save his life and all, so maybe it's just gratitude, but it's nice to have at least one person not trying to have us killed.  At this point I don't think anybody is clear on who exactly started the Lion War. Goltana can point to the whole fake kidnapping thing as the first move by Larg, but the only people who can confirm the truth of that story are dead. Meanwhile, Larg can deny it and say that the imprisonment of the Queen at Bethla was the first offense.  And it's not like either Larg or Goltana would be guaranteed much safety if the other took power. Both sides are pretty well entrenched, it's going to take a lot to end this war.   But at least we're not the only ones catching on the Church's scheming. Exposing the plot probably wouldn't stop the fighting full stop, but it would certainly go a long way.  Before riding off, Olan gives us a few words of encouragement.  Thanks dude. Where we're going, we'll need it. J. Alfred Prufrock fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jan 22, 2013 |
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Jan 22, 2013 01:19
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I am legitimately surprised and a little disappointed Marche wasn't dual-wielding knight swords there. On the other hand, this IS 1.3. drat, those Chemists seem like the most terrible thing though.
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Jan 22, 2013 01:34
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bathroomrage posted:I am legitimately surprised and a little disappointed Marche wasn't dual-wielding knight swords there. On the other hand, this IS 1.3. drat, those Chemists seem like the most terrible thing though. Should have made his class Doubleking.
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Jan 22, 2013 01:42
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So I gotta ask Archael, why Marche as an addition? He isn't exactly the FF character people clamor for and also you didn't make a joke about crippling his kid brother. Just happened to have a sprite sheet handy?
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Jan 22, 2013 01:44
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Is it just me, or is Marche's sprite kind of terrible?
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Jan 22, 2013 01:47
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Davzz posted:So I gotta ask Archael, why Marche as an addition? He isn't exactly the FF character people clamor for and also you didn't make a joke about crippling his kid brother. Just happened to have a sprite sheet handy? Endorph posted:Is it just me, or is Marche's sprite kind of terrible?
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Jan 22, 2013 01:57
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J. Alfred Prufrock posted:
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Jan 22, 2013 01:59
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Davzz posted:So I gotta ask Archael, why Marche as an addition? He isn't exactly the FF character people clamor for and also you didn't make a joke about crippling his kid brother. Just happened to have a sprite sheet handy? Could've been something pulled in from WotL.
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Jan 22, 2013 02:04
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Kyrosiris posted:Could've been something pulled in from WotL. Nope. WotL adds characters from 2 other FF games, but not Marche.
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Jan 22, 2013 02:06
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bathroomrage posted:I am legitimately surprised and a little disappointed Marche wasn't dual-wielding knight swords there. Or that he wasn't stealing like a madman.
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Jan 22, 2013 02:07
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PFlats posted:Nope. WotL adds characters from 2 other FF games, but not Marche. To be exact, it adds Balthier from FFXII and Luso from FFTA2.
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Jan 22, 2013 02:08
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Aha, I was getting him confused with Luso. My mistake.
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Jan 22, 2013 02:10
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Marche's sprite are suck, but what are you gonna do? His Skills are what he's all about. Why would Marche use two Knightswords? Knightswords weren't even that good in FFTA to begin with. Anything that wasn't 5 perfect speed (read- 3 per level) Assassins force leveled from lvl 2 with instant 999 Longbow Concentrated Ultima Mashers was absolutely inferior in that game.
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Jan 22, 2013 02:14
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Because dual wielding Excaliburs is pretty much the coolest thing possible. 
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Jan 22, 2013 02:16
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Since when did Prufrock suddenly become a Thief with Draw Out or a Samurai with Steal? That's not very Mage-y like...
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Jan 22, 2013 02:19
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Archael posted:Why would Marche use two Knightswords?  I did this in FFTA. 
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Jan 22, 2013 02:25
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Nakar posted:You will all regret dissing Marche. He's maybe the second most broken character in 1.3.
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Jan 22, 2013 02:30
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:
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Jan 22, 2013 02:31
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Archael posted:You guys are so cliche. But he's the Doubleking. 
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Jan 22, 2013 02:38
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