Landsharks in Police Uniforms: The German Shepherd Dog Thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Pet Island > Landsharks in Police Uniforms: The German Shepherd Dog Thread

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Am I right that you don't see so many sable GSDs in the show ring? They always seem to be Black and Tans.

We got a GSD at the kennels following an armed break-in at the property. He is an amazing dog, and I can see why people get really taken with this breed. He's totally alert & engaged with everything around him, very affectionate and silly with 'his people', but you'd better believe he'd have your back in a conflict. Some day I'd love to have a GSD or a dobe, but they definitely seem like a 'lifestyle dog' to me - a lot of effort to keep their bodies and minds active and engaged throughout the day.

I've got to say that I can kind of see why some breeders have bred for an exaggerated flying trot. It's a very impressive gait, beautiful even - just a pity that dogs have had to suffer along the way.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2012 21:40

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 21:25

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Tasty_Crayon posted:

Edit: I remember he had a tattoo on the inside of his ear- is this a common breeder practice?

I think most tattoos are done by pet owners who just get their dogs tattooed for security reasons (like a more permanent microchip), but some breeders do tattoo their pups for their own records, usually when they have large kennels.

I'm curious which breeders the PI GSD nerds rate? Also, which GSDs from the past do you favour? Who would be your 'ideal' dog, physically?

# ¿ Dec 11, 2012 01:19

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Please cite some peer-reviewed sources to support the notion that genetics do not inform behaviour in domestic dog breeds. I mean I have "The Dog And Its Genome", published in 2006 sitting right here.

From the chapter on Morphology and Behaviour:

"Tame backcross animals confirmed the genetic basis for behavioral differences between the two populations." (of Siberian Foxes)

(authors; Trut and Kharlamova from the Siberian Branch Russian Acadamy of Sciences; Kukekova and Acland from the College of Veterinary Medicine in New York; Carrier, Chase & Lark from the Department of Biology, University of Utah.)

From the chapter "Behavioural Genetics of Dog Cognition":

"The results of the fox farm experiment demonstrate with unprecedented certainty that selection against aggressive and fearful behavior likely has been the driving force behind the heritable changes observed in domesticated mammals."

(Authors; Hare & Tomasello, Max Planck)

From the chapter "Genetics of domesticated Behavior in Canids":

"It is also apparent that domestication then leads to dramatic changes in social behaviour, and that these changes are undeniably genetic."

"Artificial selection focused on variations in behavioural and morphological traits has led to the development of hundreds of dog breeds, selected to be shepherds, hunters, sled dogs, guardians, and simply companions"

"Dogs and other canids exhibit a fascinating range of behaviours that are clearly heritable. Probably the most commonly recognized examples of this are the very different, breed-specific behavioural repertoires seen in different breeds of dogs."

(Authors; Kukekova and Acland from the College of Veterinary Medicine in New York, Osinka; Kharlamova and Trut from the Russian Acadamy of Sciences; Chase & Lark from the Department of Biology, University of Utah; Erb from the College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell; Aguirre, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Philadelphia).

If you still can't wrap your head around the fact that Behavioural Genetics Is A Thing, go try herding sheep with a Saluki and report back to me.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2012 20:32

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Your argument is basically 'but but but there are German Shepherds who aren't aggressively neophobic towards humans and labradors who are!!!'. Gimme a B, an E, an L, an L, and a Currrrve.

Looking forward to reading your peer-reviewed sources

# ¿ Dec 12, 2012 20:46

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Warbadger posted:

Direct genetic, maternal and litter effects on behaviour in German shepherd dogs in Sweden - Erling Strandberga, Department of Evolutionary Biology, Uppsala University, Norbyv. 18 D, 752 36 Uppsala, Sweden

"Additive genetic correlations among Playfulness, Chase-proneness, and Curiosity/Fearlessness were higher (0.54�0.74) than genetic correlations with Aggressiveness (0.29�0.40). Litter variance ratios (c2) were larger than the maternal heritabilities (0.03�0.10). Boldness had a direct heritability estimate of 0.27 and a direct genetic correlation with Aggressiveness of 0.37. We conclude that there is substantial additive genetic variation, that the mother has rather little influence (both genetically and environmentally) and that the litter seems to have a larger influence than the mother for these personality traits. Genetic improvement in these behaviour traits is thus possible."

In short aggressiveness was on the lower side of the genetic correlations found and the largest influence (over the mother) was the litter.

1) This is a study into the variance of personality traits within one breed. Your argument is that there would be no statistically significant differences in personality traits, such as human aggression, between dog breeds. The data neither supports nor contradicts this hypothesis.

2) The data presented in the report supports the hypothesis that there is a significant, substantial genetic influence on personality traits such as aggression.

"There was substantial additive genetic variation in the
four personality traits, heritability estimates ranged from
0.09 to 0.23. H"

Also relevant:

"The heritabilities and genetic correlations indicate
that it if one wants to increase Boldness, or perhaps
Playfulness and Curiosity, while keeping or lowering
Aggressiveness, this should be possible"

They are acknowledging that it is possible to breed lines of dogs who are significantly more (or less) genetically predisposed to personality traits such as aggression.

Just because litter influences were found to be more significant than direct genetic influences, doesn't mean that the genetic influences themselves are insignificant. No-one is denying that environmental factors ('nurture') don't also play a huge part in defining personality traits in dogs. The authors agree that it is possible to select, genetically, for lines of German Shepherd dogs who are more or less predisposed to aggression. The study does not provide any insight into statistical differences in aggression between different dog breeds. It doesn't really support your argument.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2012 21:35

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Warbadger posted:

I've pointed out in every post that behaviors are partially influenced by genetics - that is exactly what instinct is. The point is that the complex behaviors are primarily learned and that (as in the case with the GSD aggression) breeding would be a complete red herring in a situation where the dog had actually been trained to be aggressive in the past.

There is nothing in the study you presented that supports your second statement.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2012 21:49

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Warbadger posted:

Basically yes, the dog can have a higher propensity to be aggressive from birth, but that isn't going to be the main factor in it actually becoming an aggressive dog - or even particularly relevant when compared to the effects of training it be aggressive.

There is nothing in the study you presented that supports your second statement. Do you understand what statistical significance is?

(Sorry for sperging on about this stuff in the GSD thread, if anyone would prefer I'd be happy to take the discussion somewhere different.)

e.

Warbadger posted:

I know that a few Labradors (among other breeds) made Sch3 and that is a breed with entirely different standards/temperament so I wouldn't really rule out those things from happening either.

You need to embrace the concept of a bell curve.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2012 22:15

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Warbadger posted:

The concept of the bell curve indicates that yes, the dog from my neighbor might very well be able to compete very well in Schutzhund. Not really sure what you're even arguing here.

no poo poo

Look again at the wording of a life less's post - she wasn't ruling out anything - she was saying that you wouldn't expect a dog such as your friend's labrador to earn the title. That's what probability is all about. It is more likely that a GSD from a line of successful Schutzhund competitors would be able to earn its SCH3 than a randomly bred lab. Given the two dogs, you'd expect the GSD to be more competitive. That doesn't rule out that the lab could earn the title, it just means that the likelihood is lower. No-one is saying that breed heritage is 100% prescriptive - we are all aware that there are exceptions and anomalies to every trend.

Again, this derail should probably wrap up - I was in the middle of a longer post addressing the fallacies of the human/dog comparisons you've been drawing, but this is probably the more relevant paragraph;

2) You're handwaving population genetics, and wrong in your assumption that human populations have reproduced in relative isolation. Human beings actually have very low genetic diversity! There is more variation within human populations than there is between them. This means that there has been consistent and extensive gene flow (inter-breeding) between populations throughout our species' history.

By contrast, there is much more genetic diversity in dogs, and specifically between the various breeds;

"variation among breeds accounts for 27% of total genetic variation, as opposed to 5-10% among human populations" (Parker et al., 2004)

The fact that humans have lower inter-group genetic diversity than dogs could very easily account for the lower physical and behavioural diversity that you see in humans when you compare the species.

To sum up, yes GSDs as a population are more predisposed towards serious human neophobia than (for example) whippets, and we could cite studies all day but it would ultimately be trying to batter down a door that is already open. Dog breeds differ, on a population level, in both temperament and behavioural characteristics, sorry man now lets get back to GSDs :3:

notsowelp fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Dec 12, 2012

# ¿ Dec 12, 2012 22:35

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Warbadger posted:

Duffy, D.L., et al., Breed differences in canine aggression, Appl. Anim.
Behav. Sci. (2008)

Only 22% of pit bulls showed strange dog aggression. Higher than the average breed, certainly not the highest, and not high enough to indicate a breed-wide "automatic" behavior. I'd prefer not to go into dog fighting poo poo, but yes, in fact they do condition the dogs to fight.

I think everyone's made it pretty clear that they don't want this poo poo to keep cluttering up the GSD thread, so why don't you head over to the Random Nonsense thread with your study and we can explain how incredibly wrong you are over there.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2012 17:59

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Warbadger posted:

lol stop

Responded in the Pit Bull thread, now shush

# ¿ Dec 13, 2012 21:15

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Huge Liability posted:

Thanks for being inclusive!

Duke's father was a purebred and his mother was a German Shepherd mix, though we aren't sure what she was mixed with. Duke can occasionally pass as a purebred, though. He once fooled a registered GSD breeder.

He's nine years old, so he's beginning to slow down a bit, but he's otherwise completely healthy. We're so thankful that he hasn't shown signs of dysplasia.

I'd definitely mistake him for a purebred. Do you clip/shave his coat, out of interest?

# ¿ Dec 14, 2012 05:55

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

The arguments about what is or isn't 'correct' in GSDs always baffle me because GSDs have had such a diverse array of roles throughout their history. Concepts such as 'preservationist breeding' fall down for me with breeds like GSDs, because they have evolved to fill so many different niches over the last century+. Is the 'real' German Shepherd a herder or a police dog? A Schutzhund champion, a seeing eye dog or a Westminster BIS? It all depends on your perspective, and I'm not sure that there's a 'right' answer.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2012 23:36

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Superconsndar posted:

I like this thread bc I get to look at pretty doggies

Just 4 you~

# ¿ Dec 21, 2012 15:08

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Frankly, show shepherds are gross and pointless too: at least 'King Shepherds' don't appear to be literally crippled by their conformation - plus, their community seems to be super big on health testing too. If someone is looking for a pet GSD, where would you suggest they go? Frogdog show lines? Super hardcore working lines? Being snooty at people for being drawn to a GSD type dog that isn't falling apart in the rear and/or too intense and drivey to fit comfortably into their home is dumb and counterproductive. The breed is a mess, I'd far rather a novice go to a ~~byb~~ breeding for sane conformation and doing health tests than get some wobbly-hocked no-butt travesty from a show kennel.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2013 00:06

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 21:25

notsowelp: Oct 12, 2012; Though she is small, she is fierce.

Triangulum posted:

They're just Shiloh Shepherds (Malamute x German Shepherd) bred with Great Pyrenees for literally no reason besides "GSDs should be bigger, fluffier, and lazier." They're pretty much designer dogs for people who think GSDs are pretty.

I'd suggest they go to the breeders who do a mix of working and good showlines and produce structurally sound but lower drive dogs. There is actually something in between "horrible frogdog", "literally a police dog", and "GSD version of a labradoodle" dude.

Sure but shaming people about :byodame:

GROSS POINTLESS MUTTS for happening to express a preference for saner looking gsds (or gsd types) is pretty dumb considering the state of the breed. Something I notice a lot when people who arent dogladies look at ~shiloh shepherds~, ~king shepherds~ and such is that they'll start talking about how *that's* what the gsds they remember used to look like, and oh man wouldn't it be nice to have a real old-fashioned GSD that actually looks like a dog. Launching into a :smug:

patronising sperglord lecture about labradoodles at that point is completely counterproductive if your goal is actually educating people where to look in a breed which is so bewilderingly and (especially for a newcomer) intimidatingly atomised.

Don't be a dick to people who are impressed by the look of king shepherds and shiloh shepherds; point them in the direction of breeders you consider reputable who are producing similar dogs.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2013 00:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Pet Island > Landsharks in Police Uniforms: The German Shepherd Dog Thread