Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«156 »
  • Post
  • Reply
pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

Pillbug

Boywhiz88 posted:

Also, I’ve mentioned it before but season 5 (in 2007/8) brings up fentanyl. Almost 100% sure of that. Just one of those tiny mentions that just portends something greater.

I caught that too this time around. And it was in the context of causing many more deaths.

zenguitarman posted:

I just finished Generation Kill not that long ago and James Ransone is incredible in it

Holds up on a rewatch!

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


kaworu posted:


We cut to black childlren in the street at night running circles in some anonymous man in a hoodie, in a filthy and dangerous looking area full of trash, with big rats wandering about. McNulty pulls up, dropping Bubs off, and he remarks "Thin line 'tween heaven and here." I sort of got it, but as a white upper-middle class individual who was still in his early twenties and under the financial and medical umbrella of my parents at the time, I did NOT truly understand it. I didn't really quite get why his experience at that soccer game could be described as 'heaven'. I just didn't really GET it. I didn't notice the dramatic match-cut from the happy white kids playing soccer in the daytime with parents and responsible adults watching, to happy black kids running and playing in the dark of night, in a sketchy west-side alley with only a faceless man in a hoodie with a brown paper bag watching, garbage lies in piles and a rat wanders around. That is a VERY stark contrast, and I feel almost embarrassed that this whole bit kind of... passed me by.


you're looking at it the wrong way, cuz.

if you were like me, and hopelessly naive when you first watched through the series, this show was your first really clear look at how the sausage gets made. you were still hopelessly naive after you finished the show, but there were some things in you that were different afterward. some things that grew into greater curiosities to investigate how certain aspects of society really play out. you look back and feel embarrassment now at how little you understood when you first watched, but it's in part because you watched that you even have the insight necessary to make that observation now.

all the pieces matter

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Crook County

James Ransone is a treasure.

And so are all of you.

dreffen
Dec 3, 2005

MEDIOCRE, MORSOV!



Ziggy is also on Bosch season 2. Actually Dozerman is part of his crew there too.

Hasselblad
Dec 13, 2017
NRA shill who thinks homeless people would love to live in migrant border camps. Help me realize I am a bigoted piece of shit.


Ginette Reno posted:

Did you forget Marlo Stanfield exists
Did you forget Avon existed?

quote:

murdered his girlfriends, murdered kids, tortured and murdered people who stole from him. Murdered the working man for being an honest witness

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Nap Ghost

Marlo murdered a working man for wanting it one way, but it was the other way

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020


Boywhiz88 posted:

5. Still need to watch Simon’s new one and The Deuce. But The Wire is just a siren song.

The Deuce is very good, and has some incredible acting from Emily Meade and Maggie Gyllenhaal (along with David Simon's attention to detail), but its not as narratively tight as The Wire. Havent caught The Plot Against America yet though.

Bloodbath
Apr 10, 2005

GRIM AND FROSTBITTEN KINGDOMS

Another good Ziggy show worth checking out


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Winter_Sun_(American_TV_series)

Mr. Prokosch
Feb 14, 2012

Behold My Magnificence!


Yeah, Avon would murder a man for testifying, Marlo would do it because he thought he might have given him a funny look.

Dumb Lowtax
Jul 9, 2005


Plaster Town Cop

i heard marlo sucks dick

ShaneMacGowansTeeth
May 22, 2007



I think this is it... I think this is how it ends


Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/AoDespair/statu...474233974980609

Syrian Lannister
Aug 25, 2007

Oh, did I kill him too?
I've been a very busy little man.


Sugartime Jones

Dumb Lowtax posted:

i heard marlo sucks dick

Heard Marlo won't come to the streets neither

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Mr. Prokosch posted:

Yeah, Avon would murder a man for testifying, Marlo would do it because he thought he might have given him a funny look.

Avon would kill a man because he though he might have been given him a funny look and then tried to justify it.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Syrian Lannister posted:

Heard Marlo won't come to the streets neither

The simple ease with which Omar figures out exactly how to hurt Marlo really is amazing. The fact that Marlo never knew it was happening and his realization that nobody will ever believe that once he finds out really is just an absolutely incredible scene.

dreffen
Dec 3, 2005

MEDIOCRE, MORSOV!



Jerusalem posted:

The simple ease with which Omar figures out exactly how to hurt Marlo really is amazing. The fact that Marlo never knew it was happening and his realization that nobody will ever believe that once he finds out really is just an absolutely incredible scene.

Truly, that whole scene is great. The narrowing down to who it could be, and Monk being very gun shy about sharing details and Chris getting onto him and shutting him up and downplaying it. And has one of my favorite lines; “My name is my name.”

Dumb Lowtax
Jul 9, 2005


Plaster Town Cop

I was so puzzled until I realized that I still need to see the final three episodes

Boywhiz88
Sep 11, 2005

floating 26" off da ground. BURR!

Just made a connection that didn’t come up in Jerusalem’s S3, E12 recap.

As Rawls is dragging out the poo poo talk to Bunny during the final COMSTAT, Colvin barks back “Get on with it, motherfucker.” That was noted in the recap, however, it’s the same last words as Stringer Bell. I mean, we already knew but that really puts the cap on the “firing squad” image that COMSTAT provides throughout the season.

There’s a non-zero chance I made that connection in previous rewatches but I love I can catch new stuff 12+ years after seeing that season for the first time.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS


Floss Finder

Boywhiz88 posted:

Just made a connection that didn’t come up in Jerusalem’s S3, E12 recap.

As Rawls is dragging out the poo poo talk to Bunny during the final COMSTAT, Colvin barks back “Get on with it, motherfucker.” That was noted in the recap, however, it’s the same last words as Stringer Bell. I mean, we already knew but that really puts the cap on the “firing squad” image that COMSTAT provides throughout the season.

There’s a non-zero chance I made that connection in previous rewatches but I love I can catch new stuff 12+ years after seeing that season for the first time.
They even both get cut off without finishing the line - Stringer by the shotgun and Colvin by Rawls with an "excuse me".

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



Re-watching this show at age 34 really is a radically different experience than watching it for the first time at age 20 in 2006, or rewatching it 4 years later at 24 in 2010 after the recession and the spectacular collapse of the multi-national criminal ponzi scheme referred to as "Keynesian economics" I thought that I'd reached a somewhat more enlightened place and I understood the show much more fully. Of course, that was useful bullshit, and now... well... now I'm just very aware that I will always be ignorant and always have more to learn, more to glean, more to understand. It's inspiring that I always find more and more subtleties in great pieces of art like this.

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


kaworu posted:

Re-watching this show at age 34 really is a radically different experience than watching it for the first time at age 20 in 2006, or rewatching it 4 years later at 24 in 2010 after the recession and the spectacular collapse of the multi-national criminal ponzi scheme referred to as "Keynesian economics" I thought that I'd reached a somewhat more enlightened place and I understood the show much more fully. Of course, that was useful bullshit, and now... well... now I'm just very aware that I will always be ignorant and always have more to learn, more to glean, more to understand. It's inspiring that I always find more and more subtleties in great pieces of art like this.

me at 18: i have achieved full awareness
me at 19: oh, NOW I've achieved full awareness
20-23: crippling depression
me at 24: sigh. okay. I'm fully aware now.

narrator: no he wasn't

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 28 hours!


I think the majority of goons itt understand the wire better than David Simon at this point.

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


Stairmaster posted:

I think the majority of goons itt understand the wire better than David Simon at this point.

yeah i was amazed to hear David Simon is more or less a neolib who believes all capitalism needs is more regulation.

bruh, did you watch your magnum opus. like he gives talks all the time about tricky dick Nixon and ronald reagan and how trivially easy it was for them to not only dismantle new deal policies, but then make that platform politically repulsive for a generation.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

If your takeaway from the wire was “only the current manifestation of institutions are corrupt, we just need different institutions” then it’s not David simon who wasn’t paying attention

Simon doesn’t believe that noble goals are enough to overcome the resistance to change from the status quo, the difficulties that come around when you try to actually implement change, and the corruption/dilution of ideals that comes with attaining power (see: hamsterdam, stringer’s push for gentrifying the drug trade, the special education classes in season 4, and basically everything carcetti promised w/r/t both the police and the schools)

The through line of the entire series (and it’s explicitly stated in the book of the corner) is that achieving any lasting change requires both personal, human care (eg kima, Steve Earle for bubbles, bunny Colvin for namond, curry for his boys, prez for his kids) AND extremely lucky circumstances.

So yeah him not being in favour of revolutionary change doesn’t conflict at all with the wire.

Dumb Lowtax
Jul 9, 2005


Plaster Town Cop

The show explores revolutionary change (hamsterdam) but what it does not explore is total self-collapse of the existing structures, and what comes next

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Dumb Lowtax posted:

The show explores revolutionary change (hamsterdam) but what it does not explore is total self-collapse of the existing structures, and what comes next

Yup totally. Simon is way more interested in talking about how things are hosed than he is in talking about how to fix it. He’s more of a reporter than a visionary, which is great because visionaries are generally big dumb idiots.

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


awesmoe posted:

If your takeaway from the wire was “only the current manifestation of institutions are corrupt, we just need different institutions” then it’s not David simon who wasn’t paying attention

Simon doesn’t believe that noble goals are enough to overcome the resistance to change from the status quo, the difficulties that come around when you try to actually implement change, and the corruption/dilution of ideals that comes with attaining power (see: hamsterdam, stringer’s push for gentrifying the drug trade, the special education classes in season 4, and basically everything carcetti promised w/r/t both the police and the schools)

The through line of the entire series (and it’s explicitly stated in the book of the corner) is that achieving any lasting change requires both personal, human care (eg kima, Steve Earle for bubbles, bunny Colvin for namond, curry for his boys, prez for his kids) AND extremely lucky circumstances.

So yeah him not being in favour of revolutionary change doesn’t conflict at all with the wire.

i agree with pretty much everything you said, including that simon's general outlook appears to be that the only answer to society's ills is real, human compassion.

i still think it's reasonable to feel a little incredulous/surprise that someone who made the wire could believe "capitalism, with more regulations" would provide that.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

God Hole posted:

i agree with pretty much everything you said, including that simon's general outlook appears to be that the only answer to society's ills is real, human compassion.

i still think it's reasonable to feel a little incredulous/surprise that someone who made the wire could believe "capitalism, with more regulations" would provide that.

I think the argument is that it’s the system least likely to gently caress everything up and easiest to keep in check. Minimising the chance of dystopia, not maximising the chance of utopia

E: this is my attempting to reconstruct simons point based on my recollections of his work, rather than me arguing the point myself

Dumb Lowtax
Jul 9, 2005


Plaster Town Cop

Again, the guy had at least a whole season on the failures of meritocracy and focus-grouped academic approaches to fixing institutions, and the destructive effects of vested interest in individual leaders who have a history of pragmatism. And then he went and endorsed Elizabeth Warren in real life

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


replace james franco? lol uhhh gently caress off

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle



I think a key concept on the wire is a revolution doesn't really change things. Hamsterdam and legalizing drugs just shuffled where the bodies were buried in the end.

Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 03:30 on May 16, 2020

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


Jack2142 posted:

I think a key concept on the wire is a revolution doesn't really change things. Hamsterdam and legalizing drugs just shuffled where the bodies were buried in the end.

hamsterdam isn’t a revolution. at best it’s a Limited Hangout, implemented by a jaded yet still firmly establishment figure who’s too old for this poo poo and not really interested in sweeping systemic reform. What bunny IS interested in is solving one or two social ills with an eclectic patchwork of abolitionist, socialist, anarchist, and utilitarian theories lazily thrown together (the urban police major needed to be reminded of communicable diseases?)

another lesson that could be drawn from this, with an eye toward the fact that not even the authority of the commanding officers within the department was legitimately challenged much less that of the overarching economic system that is directly antagonistic in nature to the ideals represented by the existence of hamsterdam, is that siloed and poorly planned/coordinated social reforms will only succeed in changing where the bodies are buried.

Dumb Lowtax
Jul 9, 2005


Plaster Town Cop

God Hole posted:

not even the authority of the commanding officers within the department was legitimately challenged much less that of the overarching economic system that is directly antagonistic in nature to the ideals

Good point, it may have been praxis, but it was NOT revolution... in any sense that threatened the actual problem people (Burrell, Rawls, the mayor, all those connected)

And even as just Praxis it may not have been a failure! Did it save more lives than it cost? Who knows if the healthcare workers present were able to offset some harm that might have otherwise happened behind closed doors. And for a time, the city's poor got to breathe without police interruption or territory based violence, which tips the equation even farther.

Orange Devil
Sep 30, 2010

CUNT


Hamsterdam was very likely a net good while not disrupting any of the actual causes of the suffering it alleviates.

So sure, we should support things such as that because it materially helps people and reduces suffering. But it doesn't actually solve anything.

Kind of like capitalism with better regulations.

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


Orange Devil posted:

Hamsterdam was very likely a net good while not disrupting any of the actual causes of the suffering it alleviates.

So sure, we should support things such as that because it materially helps people and reduces suffering. But it doesn't actually solve anything.

Kind of like capitalism with better regulations.

another consideration should be “localized & temporary net good” vs “universal permanent net good”

hamsterdam may seem far fetched on its face to the layman but bored police commanders have a long, storied history of accidentally discovering revolutionary social change while loving around with departmental procedures, for instance what would happen if we just stopped patrolling lol-OH gently caress CRIME IS GOING DOWN ABORT ABORT GET THE CARS BACK ON THE ROAD

every single police officer in the US in the past 50 years has studied the Kansas City preventative patrol experiment, despite its results being clearly abolitionist on its face! you better believe that in the world of the wire, the hamsterdam case is going right in every subsequent criminal justice textbook that goes to print. now why would that be? why would the establishment be okay with teaching their entire workforce about social experiments that are essentially existential threats to their authority?

because it matters who revolutionary tactics come from. when they teach officers about the Kansas City experiment, it’s an inoculation. if anything similar to hamsterdam (anywhere now, not just in Baltimore) were to naturally manifest among the civilian population later on or a progressive officer starts getting some funny ideas, other officers will instinctively recognize it for what it is and shut it the gently caress down either with some good old fashioned anti-intellectualist rhetoric - and if that doesn’t work - brutal crackdowns and/or reassignment to the pawn shop unit.

that’s not to say the bunny’s of the world shouldn’t try; he has obvious positive effects on people around him, and his example could potentially inspire future revolutionaries, but as we can see the population of Baltimore has been successfully suppressed for a long time. they have little to no class consciousness or institutional memory outside of a few pockets. in all likelihood, bunny made revolutionary change less possible

God Hole fucked around with this message at 13:24 on May 16, 2020

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.




God Hole posted:

i agree with pretty much everything you said, including that simon's general outlook appears to be that the only answer to society's ills is real, human compassion.

The Dickensian aspect.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





God Hole posted:

another consideration should be “localized & temporary net good” vs “universal permanent net good”

hamsterdam may seem far fetched on its face to the layman but bored police commanders have a long, storied history of accidentally discovering revolutionary social change while loving around with departmental procedures, for instance what would happen if we just stopped patrolling lol-OH gently caress CRIME IS GOING DOWN ABORT ABORT GET THE CARS BACK ON THE ROAD

every single police officer in the US in the past 50 years has studied the Kansas City preventative patrol experiment, despite its results being clearly abolitionist on its face! you better believe that in the world of the wire, the hamsterdam case is going right in every subsequent criminal justice textbook that goes to print. now why would that be? why would the establishment be okay with teaching their entire workforce about social experiments that are essentially existential threats to their authority?

because it matters who revolutionary tactics come from. when they teach officers about the Kansas City experiment, it’s an inoculation. if anything similar to hamsterdam (anywhere now, not just in Baltimore) were to naturally manifest among the civilian population later on or a progressive officer starts getting some funny ideas, other officers will instinctively recognize it for what it is and shut it the gently caress down either with some good old fashioned anti-intellectualist rhetoric - and if that doesn’t work - brutal crackdowns and/or reassignment to the pawn shop unit.

that’s not to say the bunny’s of the world shouldn’t try; he has obvious positive effects on people around him, and his example could potentially inspire future revolutionaries, but as we can see the population of Baltimore has been successfully suppressed for a long time. they have little to no class consciousness or institutional memory outside of a few pockets. in all likelihood, bunny made revolutionary change less possible

Reminds me of Top Gear's ongoing thing about speed cameras

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADj_lnKVRhE

(Lol at the EU bit at the end, welp)

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


when I was in Europe I was struck by how luxuriously long yellow traffic lights were. you had plenty of time to analyze which is more feasible: stopping or rolling through. Studies tell us that there is a direct correlation between how short the yellow light is, and the amount of fatalities that occur at that intersection.

yet the yellow lights in the US get shorter and shorter, more and more people get t-boned and die, but those unmanned traffic cameras are rolling in the dough baby!!!

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Crook County

God Hole posted:

replace james franco? lol uhhh gently caress off

After seeing that pic of McNulty’s actor mustachioed up, I think he would’ve done a way better job playing Franco’s role in The Deuce.

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle



God Hole posted:

another consideration should be “localized & temporary net good” vs “universal permanent net good”

hamsterdam may seem far fetched on its face to the layman but bored police commanders have a long, storied history of accidentally discovering revolutionary social change while loving around with departmental procedures, for instance what would happen if we just stopped patrolling lol-OH gently caress CRIME IS GOING DOWN ABORT ABORT GET THE CARS BACK ON THE ROAD

every single police officer in the US in the past 50 years has studied the Kansas City preventative patrol experiment, despite its results being clearly abolitionist on its face! you better believe that in the world of the wire, the hamsterdam case is going right in every subsequent criminal justice textbook that goes to print. now why would that be? why would the establishment be okay with teaching their entire workforce about social experiments that are essentially existential threats to their authority?

because it matters who revolutionary tactics come from. when they teach officers about the Kansas City experiment, it’s an inoculation. if anything similar to hamsterdam (anywhere now, not just in Baltimore) were to naturally manifest among the civilian population later on or a progressive officer starts getting some funny ideas, other officers will instinctively recognize it for what it is and shut it the gently caress down either with some good old fashioned anti-intellectualist rhetoric - and if that doesn’t work - brutal crackdowns and/or reassignment to the pawn shop unit.

that’s not to say the bunny’s of the world shouldn’t try; he has obvious positive effects on people around him, and his example could potentially inspire future revolutionaries, but as we can see the population of Baltimore has been successfully suppressed for a long time. they have little to no class consciousness or institutional memory outside of a few pockets. in all likelihood, bunny made revolutionary change less possible

I think that is an interesting take, thanks for sharing.

I know to a certain extent in some ways Seattle has effectively done the Hamsterdam in regards to our homeless population, I am not sure if it is really improving their situation however. Certainly has made a lot of people mad and the police very angry, which feeds into what you are saying on it undermining their authority and thus must be opposed.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Laterite
Mar 14, 2007

It's Gutfest '89

Grimey Drawer

Hamsterdam was just another form of juking the stats

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«156 »