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It took me 8 episodes of rewatching Season 2 to realize Frank Sobotka is also Andy Bellefleur in True Blood. 
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May 29, 2013 15:23
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the black husserl posted:I'm pretty sure that dismissing the beads was indeed a symbol that nothing is there, considering that his only characteristic has been discarded. Also didn't David Simon explicitly state that Marlo and The Greek are abstract forces of capitalism? That point is just more obvious in the re-watch. It's just different readings. Taking the dismissal of the beads to be a reveal of sorts, it turning out that there really is nothing to The Greek works - it also emphasizes the idea of these immovable systems and institutions, if you take the beads at the end to be the show firmly pointing at the greek and saying, 'there is nothing but force there', then you also think back to Nick and Frank spending so much time trying to talk to him and wonder why, realise there was never any hope of reasoning with him (or of collectively bargaining with him). I think the beads can also work as a symbol of him as something other than this though, him dismissing the beads isn't entirely the show saying 'he is nothing but a force of capatalism' Its pointing out that while we never saw it in this program, there was an opportunity of there being something else to him, sort of suggesting that although they needed a representation of capatalism for the points they wanted to make in this series, and The Greek was it, if we followed him we'd learn his place as a person, inside the larger system of globalization etc. Also if you want to make a, maybe slightly glib, point about stringer and doors, its that all those locked doors in his condominium at the end were what killed him.
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May 29, 2013 15:28
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pigdog posted:It took me 8 episodes of rewatching Season 2 to realize Frank Sobotka is also Andy Bellefleur in True Blood. The Greeks didn't kill him, they just glamored the gently caress out of him and sent him to Bon Temps.
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May 29, 2013 17:06
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ScipioAfro posted:I'm guessing Orange Devil was taking a Phil Ochs view of liberal america. This right here. What liberal policies fail? Well, it depends on how you define fail and what your goals are, but I'd say pretty much all of them. Then again, I'm a socialist. Stuff like Hamsterdam is presented as a solution to the drug problem. It's simultaneously true and absurd. It's true in that "the drug problem" in the US involves its travesty of a prison system, the disproportionate sentencing of young black men, the damage this does to black communities and inner city communities, but ofcourse also, as we see, white blue collar areas. It's all the petty crime from junkies like Bubbles. It's the drug moneys corrupting influence on politics, it's the police focusing resources on drugs rather than other crimes and the predictable results, including the stats game, etcetera etcetera. But then I'm Dutch, I live in the country that is the inspiration for Hamsterdam, and let me be clear: the drug problem isn't solved. Now, a lot of those issues I just mentioned, it is true that we either don't have them or they are greatly diminished. That's legitimately great and it makes life better for a lot of people. However, we still have addiction. We still have people ruining their life on the needle or the pipe. So no, the drug problem isn't solved, and how could it be? The causes of those addictions (and many if not all other harmful addictions) still exist here. It's true that those, too, aren't as prevalent as the US, given how our recent history has been one of social democracy, as opposed to the US, which has been more laissez-faire, especially since the rise of neoliberalism with Reagan. Canadian Prof. Bruce K. Alexander has done some wonderful writing about addiction, what it is and what causes it in our societies. He makes a convincing case that the current form of globalization and capitalism have a lot to do with it. It's those root causes that I feel very strongly that need to be addressed to really deal with the drug problem. Decriminalization, treating addiction as illness rather than crime, gedoogbeleid, needle exchange programmes, HIV tests, and so on and so forth are all good, but ultimately deal with symptoms and control the damage, rather than address the underlying isuses. I think the Wire is a show that excels at showing that the whole system is hosed, but not just hosed but fundamentally a part of the problems it, at least in theory, exists to address. They're a part of the game. And the game is rigged. You can't just reform these institutions, they are too big and have too much inertia and they will change you before you change them. For me, the ultimate conclusion is that we must do away with the very principles these institutions currently are grounded in and the culture they operate in, in order for them to become forces for good in this world. For some institutions, most desirable would be getting rid of them altogether. Season 2 has a similar story about how capitalism's hosed in relation to the middle class, specifically in this case the blue collar part of it, or what's left of that anyway. Season 3 shows us just why reform isn't an option. Season 4 shows the rot is also in the schooling system, and season 5 shows it extends to the media as well.
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May 29, 2013 21:53
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Oh I agree, and it's fairly indisputable that The Wire offers a severe critique of neoliberalism, most notably in this season but you can argue for subtext in other seasons as well. Like I said, my use of the word "liberal" was not in terms of modern liberal economics, but the general catch-all political term. Simon has actually said in many interviews that the show is about the people who the modern American economy has decided no longer matter. I think a fair bit of it is in subtext though, Season 2 notwithstanding. I think it's a mistake, though, to see Hamsterdam as the show presenting a solution. (On the whole, they present few explicit solutions to anything; it's more about pointing out how hosed everything is.) It's more of a starting point than anything; the important thing to remember about it is that despite its flaws it's still a vast improvement over the status quo. One detail I didn't notice until a few rewatches - Hamsterdam decreases crime in the Western but when Colvin presents the actual stat it doesn't actually seem like that much. It's also important to note how the politicians and police command react to it - a few of them, most notably Mayor Royce, seem to recognize that it's not the worst idea, but are afraid to endorse it because it will mean career suicide. Even Carcetti initially hesitates to cash in on the political opportunity it offers. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 22:39 on May 29, 2013 |
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May 29, 2013 22:35
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pigdog posted:It took me 8 episodes of rewatching Season 2 to realize Frank Sobotka is also Andy Bellefleur in True Blood. It took two full seasons for the thread to call him Sheriff Andy instead of Frank Sobotka. And I know I have seen him in other things, and he's terrific in other things, but he will pretty much always be Frank Sobotka in my mind. Same as how Andre Royo will always be Bubbles, and Michael K Williams will always be Omar. They inhabited those parts so well that even when they are being amazing in other things my mind always goes back to The Wire. I had the same issue with Idris Elba for a long time, until Luther. chesh fucked around with this message at 23:19 on May 29, 2013 |
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May 29, 2013 23:01
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Well, he didn't get made Sheriff until Season 3, so... but yeah, I always called them "Sheriff Farnum and Deputy Sobotka" (Deadwood and Wire roles, respectively)
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May 29, 2013 23:15
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escape artist posted:Well, he didn't get made Sheriff until Season 3, so... Well, yeah, that's what I meant. YOU KNEW WHAT I MEANT STOP BEING PEDANTIC. 
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May 29, 2013 23:18
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chesh posted:Well, yeah, that's what I meant. YOU KNEW WHAT I MEANT STOP BEING PEDANTIC. When will I ever get a chance to be pedantic while discussing True Blood ever again? I saw the opportunity and I snatched it up.
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May 29, 2013 23:46
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Jerusalem dude, I'd like to give you a shout out, your lil' summaries are pretty much giving my fix of The Wire when I don't have the time to re-watch all 60 hours + bonus features and such, please keep up the good work!
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May 29, 2013 23:48
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I feel that way about a lot of Wire and Deadwood actors. (if you love deadwood cameos, watch justified there are so many (especially ellsworth).
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May 29, 2013 23:50
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chesh posted:and Michael K Williams will always be Omar. I dunno man, have you seen him in Boardwalk Empire? He's god drat amazing in that, made me forget he was ever Omar while watching. He plays being utterly terrifying really well which shows good range from the wildcard, honor-bound rogue of Omar.
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May 29, 2013 23:54
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Lugaloco posted:I dunno man, have you seen him in Boardwalk Empire? He's god drat amazing in that, made me forget he was ever Omar while watching. He plays being utterly terrifying really well which shows good range from the wildcard, honor-bound rogue of Omar. I would like to contend this point good sir, I found myself constantly thinking "Ohmagerd, he's as good in this as he was as Omar"
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May 30, 2013 00:14
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His character in Boardwalk Empire is actually Omar's great grandfather
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May 30, 2013 00:18
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Muck and Mire posted:His character in Boardwalk Empire is actually Omar's great grandfather If you can prove that, please do so, so that I can add it to my "told you so" list that i'm giving to my friend (that I got into The Wire) of show's that actually exist in the head of the kid at the end of St.Elsewhere ... (if this needs explaining, please ask, it's vaguely hilarious)
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May 30, 2013 00:24
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I can't but it makes too much sense not to be true
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May 30, 2013 00:25
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There's a great moment in season 3 involving Bubbles (I think) being in Hamsterdam at night. He's just standing there staring around at everything going on around him, and the way it is lit/his facial expression/reactions etc leap out as showing the place for the hellish nightmare it actually is. At the end of the season Bubbles makes a nice comment to Colvin about how nice it was to be able to come down and cop drugs without the police getting in your face, but I always think of that image of him staring in horror at everything around him. Hamsterdam was in no way a solution, it was just taking all the visible problems of the drug trade and pushing it off out of sight (putting it in a paper bag, as Colvin notes). Like the stevedores on the docks or the kids in the schools or dealers on the corner, Hamsterdam is just an abandonment of a section of the population that aren't "needed" any more by modern society, who just wants them to go away rather than dealing with them.
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May 30, 2013 01:40
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Jerusalem posted:There's a great moment in season 3 involving Bubbles (I think) being in Hamsterdam at night. He's just standing there staring around at everything going on around him, and the way it is lit/his facial expression/reactions etc leap out as showing the place for the hellish nightmare it actually is. At the end of the season Bubbles makes a nice comment to Colvin about how nice it was to be able to come down and cop drugs without the police getting in your face, but I always think of that image of him staring in horror at everything around him. Bubbles isn't lauding Hamsterdam. He just explains what it was. Colvin asks "So that was a good thing?" And Bubbles hesitates by saying "...I'm just saying."
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May 30, 2013 01:55
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You guys are all clearly overlooking Michael K Williams' breakout role.
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May 30, 2013 03:17
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RYYSZLA posted:If you can prove that, please do so, so that I can add it to my "told you so" list that i'm giving to my friend (that I got into The Wire) of show's that actually exist in the head of the kid at the end of St.Elsewhere ... (if this needs explaining, please ask, it's vaguely hilarious) I don't want to derail but this is the dumbest thing. The Dumbest Thing. Personally, I'm super glad the Philantropist never took off so we got to have Omar be Chalky White. Hamsterdam did actually have the potential to help the Drug Problem, but it was actually a (partial) solution to the War On Drugs. By legalization with minimal oversight, sure, but the violence dropped off almost totally in the parts of West Baltimore overseen by Colvin's district.
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May 30, 2013 03:23
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Ainsley McTree posted:You guys are all clearly overlooking Michael K Williams' breakout role. I saw him in that before in the Wire, I spent a good part of season 1 trying to remember where the gently caress I had seen that guy before...
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May 30, 2013 03:36
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Jerusalem posted:There's a great moment in season 3 involving Bubbles (I think) being in Hamsterdam at night. He's just standing there staring around at everything going on around him, and the way it is lit/his facial expression/reactions etc leap out as showing the place for the hellish nightmare it actually is. At the end of the season Bubbles makes a nice comment to Colvin about how nice it was to be able to come down and cop drugs without the police getting in your face, but I always think of that image of him staring in horror at everything around him.
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May 30, 2013 04:33
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Jerusalem posted:There's a great moment in season 3 involving Bubbles (I think) being in Hamsterdam at night. He's just standing there staring around at everything going on around him, and the way it is lit/his facial expression/reactions etc leap out as showing the place for the hellish nightmare it actually is. At the end of the season Bubbles makes a nice comment to Colvin about how nice it was to be able to come down and cop drugs without the police getting in your face, but I always think of that image of him staring in horror at everything around him. This right there. I'm almost positive that was supposed to be an intentional hellscape. It's dark as can be in a show full of harrowing settings. e:ffff. Oh well, at least he's got links. I hope whoever writes that ep keeps that in mind.
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May 30, 2013 05:10
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SpookyLizard posted:I don't want to derail but this is the dumbest thing. The Dumbest Thing. I'm sorry, did you just badmouth the Tommy Westphall universe?
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May 30, 2013 07:11
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darthbob88 posted:It's on youtube. Goddamn that's a nightmare, always puts me in mind of Bosch. Is it possible - with all the allusions to capitalism in the show - that Hamsterdam is shown as the libertarian paradise?
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May 30, 2013 12:30
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It seemed to me that Hamsterdam was presenting simple decriminalization of drugs as an empty solution. It might be marginally better than the quixotic and brutal War on Drugs, but it doesn't actually deal with any of the related problems. Hamsterdam is quite literally out of sight, out of mind. That was the Deacon's reason for rebuking Colvin, he created this little microcosm, but did nothing to actually improve the situation of the people involved. For the typical heroin addict, getting arrested is not the biggest risk they are taking.
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May 30, 2013 13:32
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Actually when the public health workers come in they remark that Hamsterdam makes it much easier for them to effectively administer drug treatment, needle exchanges, etc. That doesn't justify it by any means, but getting some of the most at-risk people concentrated one place instead of out in the wind does help things.
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May 30, 2013 14:57
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Protocol 5 posted:It seemed to me that Hamsterdam was presenting simple decriminalization of drugs as an empty solution. It might be marginally better than the quixotic and brutal War on Drugs, but it doesn't actually deal with any of the related problems. Hamsterdam is quite literally out of sight, out of mind. That was the Deacon's reason for rebuking Colvin, he created this little microcosm, but did nothing to actually improve the situation of the people involved. For the typical heroin addict, getting arrested is not the biggest risk they are taking. For Colvin, I don't think it was ever even about helping the addicts (or the dealers, or anyone else caught up in the game). He even has a line in the season that goes something like "I wanna save the parts of my district that are still worth saving," he seemed content to round them up into a little ghetto and to leave them to their own devices; as long as they kept away from the clean-living people and didn't draw any attention to themselves, he didn't really concern himself with how they were actually doing. All he wanted to do was clean up the corners, he seemed frustrated when the Deacon forced him to actually look around and think about what the addicts' lives were like. Perhaps that's a commentary on the relationship between law enforcement and community. On a marginally related note, I always get a kick out of the fact that the bleeding heart Deacon is played by an honest-to-goodness former drug lord.
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May 30, 2013 15:04
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Ainsley McTree posted:On a marginally related note, I always get a kick out of the fact that the bleeding heart Deacon is played by an honest-to-goodness former drug lord. Who by some accounts might still be involved with it in some capacity.
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May 30, 2013 17:02
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SpookyLizard posted:I don't want to derail but this is the dumbest thing. The Dumbest Thing. Are you kidding? there was a section in a cracked.com article about it and everything, go check man, it may not actually be true, but enough of the right actors turn up in the right shows to make it true-looking enough for me edit: To reply to a couple of other posts, I see hamsterdam as less of a thing saying "look, legalisation is bad aswell!" I think it's more a case of "Look what happens if you just open the doors and let everything go at once...." - I think it's preaching moderation, or regulation at the least, saying "This is what happens if you dont at least try to control what you're unleashing on the world..." RYYSZLA fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jun 1, 2013 |
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Jun 1, 2013 00:20
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Ugh, just because an iconic character appears in another show does not mean they "exist in the same universe which is really just an autistic boys imagination." Honestly, we know that St. Elsewhere has a tangential cross over with many shows, but the more shows you try to include within that, the more you reach and the more silly it sounds. David Simon really conceived this show because of the 5 second Munch scene in the last season so it would be canon in the autistic boy's dreams? Come on. Get real. This is just silly.
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Jun 1, 2013 00:41
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RYYSZLA posted:To reply to a couple of other posts, I see hamsterdam as less of a thing saying "look, legalisation is bad aswell!" I think it's more a case of "Look what happens if you just open the doors and let everything go at once...." - I think it's preaching moderation, or regulation at the least, saying "This is what happens if you dont at least try to control what you're unleashing on the world..." To me, Hamsterdam makes the point quite clearly that there is NO easy solution to the problem, no cure-all or quick-fix. The solution to the drug problem is a gigantic overhaul of society itself, a radical and unflinching look at the inequalities inherent in the system that will take decades if not centuries to change. And that kind of solution isn't just highly unpopular, it's career suicide for any politician to approach it that way, and completely unacceptable to the vast majority of a complacent population who would rather complain loudly as things continue as they are as opposed to suffer the discomfort and instability of actually getting something done about it.
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Jun 1, 2013 01:11
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escape artist posted:Ugh, just because an iconic character appears in another show does not mean they "exist in the same universe which is really just an autistic boys imagination." Wait, people actually take that seriously? I always assumed it was just an elaborate in-joke to people familiar with TV history. That said, I love the Munch cameo because it's funny to imagine Law and Order and The Wire taking place in the same universe. (I never knew he was actually credited as Munch until I looked up the IMDB page for that episode). Although I think Simon should have had Sgt Jay Landsman in the scene as well just for maximum mind fuckery.
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Jun 1, 2013 01:21
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cletepurcel posted:Wait, people actually take that seriously? I always assumed it was just an elaborate in-joke to people familiar with TV history. The real Jay Landsman was in that scene.
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Jun 1, 2013 01:45
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escape artist posted:The real Jay Landsman was in that scene. I meant Delaney Williams' character. In the old thread someone commented how much of a mindfuck it was considering that it had Jay Landsman, the Homicide/L&O character he inspired, and Clark Johnson (who had a role in Homicide as well) in the same scene, and that the only way it would be crazier would be if Delaney wandered in. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jun 1, 2013 |
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Jun 1, 2013 02:56
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escape artist posted:Ugh, just because an iconic character appears in another show does not mean they "exist in the same universe which is really just an autistic boys imagination." Thank you for being reasonable. I always thought Richard Belzer was being less Law and Order and more Homicide in that spot, myself.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:02
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SpookyLizard posted:Thank you for being reasonable.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:04
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SpookyLizard posted:I always thought Richard Belzer was being less Law and Order and more Homicide in that spot, myself. Agree, especially because he bought that bar across from the station in Homicide. Munch is as much a Baltimore staple as crab cakes and heroin.
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Jun 1, 2013 05:19
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Munch had a cameo in the X-files too, didn't he? Even in arrested development, now that I think about it.
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Jun 1, 2013 05:24
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John Munch is a a Time Lord, and therefore only one iteration of him exists throughout the multiverse. 
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Jun 1, 2013 06:23
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