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Thanks for the corrections, dwazegek.Skeesix posted:I think if David Simon felt this way about the head shot, then he should have portrayed its use as something less than an unambiguous good that Bond was too cocky to use. Regardless of how he feels about it personally, it makes complete sense that law enforcement would make use of a,"Your argument is irrelevant, go to jail" card against a guy they were convinced was a criminal. The fact that this is open to abuse and misuse is a bad thing, and reflects badly on those prosecutors and police who use it as a crutch in place of actual police work. Freamon was happy to have the Head Shot because it was the cherry on top of a LOT of hard work and research revealing numerous demonstrable instances of fraud on Clay's behalf. In the real life case of Norris it seems to have been used as a way to escape the very real fear of the prosecutor that he was going to look like an idiot for so publicly pursuing a case that had nothing behind it.
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Nov 29, 2013 23:42
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Or alternately, I'd say the easiest way to avoid the Headshot is just not make yourself a target for investigation like Clay Davis or Ed Norris (I'm not saying Norris was corrupt but he was high profile and obviously made an enemy or two somewhere along the line.)
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Nov 30, 2013 01:37
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Skeesix posted:I think if David Simon felt this way about the head shot, then he should have portrayed its use as something less than an unambiguous good that Bond was too cocky to use. They had Rhonda explain that it was bullshit. Nothing different than any kid out of college does for his first starter home. I thought it was a pretty well done explanation of how a sufficiently motivated investigation can find something you did illegal. Same with Herc and Burell, you'd have to be a saint to not have hosed up something in this XXX,000 pages of rules and regs, and ain't nobody in politics or narcotics is a saint.
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Nov 30, 2013 01:47
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Jerusalem posted:In perhaps the only demonstration Marlo would ever make of softness, he quietly tells Joe to close his eyes, to breath and relax. Giving the nod to Chris, he watches as Chris pulls the triggers and blows Prop Joe's brilliant brains out of his head. The look on Marlo's face is almost orgasmic, not because he gets off on violence or pain, but because by that gesture and Chris' response, he has solidified his own power.
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Nov 30, 2013 03:53
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The parallelism of Burrell being fired and Prop Joe being killed is obviously quite intentional given that Joe himself remarks they were at high school together. I'm interested in discussions on this. I mean, they're even removed from power in the same way - Carcetti buys off the ministers and Nerese to fire Burrell, while Marlo convinces the Greek with suitcases of cash. My take - Prop Joe is a guy who survived for a remarkable period of time through pure cunning, keeping himself neutral in most wars, and understanding that most drug lords ultimately will favor making money peacefully. Suddenly, he's confronted with Marlo who plays an entirely different game and he doesn't realize it until it's too late. Burrell, likewise, got to the top through his political skills, basically. He survived Carcetti's first attempt to fire him by exploiting his political capital, but his fatal mistake was continuing to give him bogus police stats. Just as Joe assumed that Marlo would want to just learn how to launder money so he could go semi-legit like the rest of the Co-Op, Burrell assumed that Carcetti, like most politicians, was ultimately about his own advancement - which obviously isn't an inaccurate take. I've always assumed the reason he gave the bogus stats was because he assumed Carcetti would need them for running for Governor - and of course, Carcetti does order Daniels to juke the stats later. Yet he miscalculated the same way Joe did. This isn't a perfect parallel maybe but it seems quite interesting in any case for the shows theme of individuals vs institutions.
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Nov 30, 2013 04:12
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It's a good point - Burrell and Joe are basically removed by a new, younger and hungrier generation in the form of Carcetti and Marlo respectively. Carcetti and Marlo are both ambitious and ruthless, though Carcetti has "legitimacy" that excuses a great deal of the things he does - the fact that he's white and Marlo is black probably shouldn't be ignored either, Carcetti is rewarded for his ambition and ruthlessness, while Marlo is considered a monster.
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Nov 30, 2013 04:16
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To be fair, Carcetti doesn't murder people on a whim.
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Nov 30, 2013 07:34
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ChikoDemono posted:To be fair, Carcetti doesn't murder people on a whim. Maybe not, but he sentences loads of schoolchildren to life without education. On a whim. If you want to tally murders then sure, no comparison. I wonder how close it'd be if you tallied lives ruined.
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Nov 30, 2013 13:08
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If Marlo and Carcetti are parallels, then who is the Greek, the man above it all who stays the King no matter what, in Carcetti's world? I'd say some fatcat capitalist who buys politicians, but I can't quite recall one on the show. Krawczyk is a little too smalltime for this, especially what with his run-in with Omar and Brother Mouzone, but I don't recall us seeing anyone bigger.
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Nov 30, 2013 14:02
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Orange Devil posted:If Marlo and Carcetti are parallels, then who is the Greek, the man above it all who stays the King no matter what, in Carcetti's world? I'd say some fatcat capitalist who buys politicians, but I can't quite recall one on the show. Krawczyk is a little too smalltime for this, especially what with his run-in with Omar and Brother Mouzone, but I don't recall us seeing anyone bigger. The US government, for one (though they only show up at the tail end of the Hamsterdam arc).
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Nov 30, 2013 14:31
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Orange Devil posted:If Marlo and Carcetti are parallels, then who is the Greek, the man above it all who stays the King no matter what, in Carcetti's world? I'd say some fatcat capitalist who buys politicians, but I can't quite recall one on the show. Krawczyk is a little too smalltime for this, especially what with his run-in with Omar and Brother Mouzone, but I don't recall us seeing anyone bigger. Levy? The lobbyist Frank Sobotka employs? They all seem to make their living by skimming off money from a steady stream of criminals provided by society.
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Nov 30, 2013 17:40
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computer parts posted:The US government, for one (though they only show up at the tail end of the Hamsterdam arc). That's the closet parallel, but I don't think the comparison entirely holds--what we see of the government in the show boils down to either a hideous bureaucracy or the component parts working against each other (like the FBI leak in season two that lets the Greek escape). I'd argue that, at least in Simon's point of view, it's the particularly American mix of capitalism and representative democratic government that's the equivalent to the Greek. Like the Greek, it has no real name, no real face, creates entire institutions to support itself, and devours the people that serve it--except for the close circle of people at the top. And it's happy to do wrong and aid the enemy in pursuit of its own interests. The only difference is that it's made up from many instead of one. (I don't think it's an accident that the guy is The Greek, not The Turk or The Russian--he's someone who comes from a place known for inventing democracy.) That makes it sound like the loving Illuminati or some poo poo, and this isn't a particularly nuanced argument, but whatever. Asbury fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Nov 30, 2013 |
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Nov 30, 2013 18:08
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It's interesting how "the King" in the world of the street and the drug trade then is an individual, but so far all "the King"'s we can come up with in the world of politics are institutions.
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Nov 30, 2013 19:56
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3Romeo posted:(I don't think it's an accident that the guy is The Greek, not The Turk or The Russian--he's someone who comes from a place known for inventing democracy.) The Greek posted:
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Nov 30, 2013 22:25
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I am not even Greek
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I'm pretty sure that is not what 3Romeo meant. Yes, The Greek is from somewhere else (dude always seemed from Yugoslavia or something to me) but the writers chose for him to be The Greek, rather than The Russian, the Turk, the whatever, because Greece came up with what would become our modern day democracy.
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Nov 30, 2013 22:32
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I've seen some people argue that Marlo is supposed to represent pure capitalism. I disagree - the intent is actually for The Greek to represent it, and I think he does do so far more than Marlo. Marlo represents the culmination of street culture completely cut off from the outside world - something actually CUT OFF from the benefits of capitalism. To this end, it should be noted that Joe dies in his grandfather's house - a relic from a time before white flight, deindustrialization, etc. Joe, and to a lesser extent Avon, aren't as ruthless as Marlo because they know some remnants of a less isolated time. If Marlo truly represented pure capitalism, he would not murder people on a whim just to maintain his name. All of the Greek's decisions are based on avoiding attention from the police and continuing to make the most money possible. It's completely deliberate that Vondas tells Nick proudly "My name is not my name", while Marlo screams in jail that "My name IS my name!" If Marlo was capitalism, he would actually be satisfied with his final fate. A notable contrast in their decision making, I think, comes in dealing with the Sobotkas. When Marlo is arrested he immediately suspects Michael of snitching and orders his death. The Greek leans toward killing Frank but is initially talked out of it by Vondas; he only kills Frank when he hears proof that he has talked to the cops. And when Nick snitches, they know he's doing it but don't kill him because they know he can't give the cops any decisive evidence (they even have hitmen outside his house for awhile, so it's not just the fact he goes into Witness Protection.) He even managed to leave Witness Protection and I'm going to assume they knew this but didn't care. If it were Marlo I think he would have had them all killed just on principle alone, even if it meant more potential police attention.
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Nov 30, 2013 23:07
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The Greek posted:
Neither is democracy 
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Nov 30, 2013 23:41
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Maybe capitalism is the wrong word, but I think Marlo represents that same sense that there are people out there who have no sense of morality or right/wrong - there is only what accomplishes their goals, and everything else is a hindrance to be eliminated. Somebody in your way? Remove them. Somebody affects your brand? Destroy them. Somebody seeks to compete with you? Either absorb them or wipe them out. Marlo is a shark, he exists purely to exist, he kills and dominates for no reason other than that he can - there is no emotional connection with anybody else, everybody is a tool to be used for his benefit - even Chris Partlow ends up being discarded/used to ensure Marlo will still be in a position to "be the King". He's like one of those Wall Street sharks/wolves - other people are irrelevant, friendship is secondary to advancement, advancement and power and respect is all that matters, and in the end even the money is nothing more than a status symbol - a sign of the power he wields and the dominance he has over his kingdom.
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Nov 30, 2013 23:44
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There are bits of Stalinism as well. He's the big brother on the streets, always watching. Complete with near mythical secret police in Snoop and Chris. If you cross him, he'll literally make you disappear. Since it's folks from the wrong zip code, it's like you never existed at all.
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Dec 1, 2013 00:15
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3Romeo posted:Neither is democracy Who did?
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Dec 1, 2013 08:25
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Sneaky Fast posted:Who did? I think he's probably making the point that ancient Greece excluded people from the democratic process. There was no full enfranchisement in Greece*, as women and slaves were excluded from voting. But that's neither here nor there, and saying something like that, not explaining it, and then punctuating it with a smug face is probably the most useless post you could make. *I am referring to the city-state of Athens, in particular.
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Dec 1, 2013 10:54
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It was meant as a tongue-in-cheek reply to The Greek's quote about not even being Greek. And escape artist, dude, this is one of the best threads on the forum that all of us have contributed some great discussion to (you and I both have done some writeups)* so I think we've earned the right to have a useless post now and again. *still blows my mind that Jerusalem has done so many, because they aren't exactly easy
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Dec 1, 2013 12:25
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I thought Marlo obviously represented pure thirst for power. He didn't give a poo poo about the game like Avon did or the money like Stringer or the Greek do. He just wanted to be on top. Since he was born a poor black kid on the West Side his only avenue for that was pretty much gang life, but if he was born rich and affluent someone with his personality would just want to be on top of that game. He returned to the street because the only option was either being a small fish among huge ones (the financial people Levy was about to introduce to him), he didn't have the skills or knowledge to make it to the top there. If he had, I think he would have just trucked along, screwing over allies like he screwed Joe, taking on big powerhouses like Avon.
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Dec 1, 2013 21:57
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Jerusalem posted:Chris doesn't answer, just opens the door to a garage to reveal Snoop waiting with a gun.... and a tied up, gagged, shivering, terrified Hungry Man. Snoops reveals that Hungry Man already poo poo himself and they haven't even gotten started with him, and Chris turns to the surprised Cheese and tells him this is a gift from Marlo.... you give a gift, you get a gift back. Cheese understands exactly what he means, and approaches the man who he blames for his earlier humiliation by Joe with great anticipation. I never really understood why Cheese was so anxious to betray his own flesh and blood to Marlo of all people over Hungry Man, who presumably isn't much more than a 2-bit gangster if he hasn't been brought up before this season. I mean Cheese is not exactly a bright dude, but he sees first-hand that to Marlo, loyalty means exactly nothing. Why wouldn't Cheese just doublecross Marlo to Joe? If Cheese is so hungry for Hungry Man's territory, how much better would a piece of Marlo's territory taste?
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Dec 1, 2013 22:41
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Skeesix posted:I never really understood why Cheese was so anxious to betray his own flesh and blood to Marlo of all people over Hungry Man, who presumably isn't much more than a 2-bit gangster if he hasn't been brought up before this season. Cheese doesn't understand or respect Joe's ways, and is chafing under what he feels are unnecessary and artificial restrictions. He can't understand why Joe lives in an old house instead of some mansion or flashy apartment, and feels that Joe's efforts to find common, mutually beneficial ground is a weakness. Cheese is very much of the mindset that you take what you want when you want it, and either you're powerful enough to get away with that or you're not. He's completely convinced of his own superiority even though he's not particularly smart and not a long-term thinker at all (he has more in common with Ziggy than he might want to ever admit), and bristles at any insult, real or perceived, to that superiority. When Joe humbles him in front of the rest of the Co-Op, he considers THAT a betrayal by his Uncle who he thinks should be favoring him and letting him get away with what he wants. When Chris gives him Hungry Man, he sees that as a mark of respect, and he respects that Marlo also doesn't put up with any of the bullshit or cooperation that Joe values so highly. So he lets himself get used, and mistakes being a pawn for being a player.
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Dec 1, 2013 22:54
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Let's not forget that Cheese knows Joe aided Omar in the huge heist. Cheese being a pain in the rear end for Joe has been a running theme since Season 2. It wasn't unexpected at all.
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Dec 2, 2013 03:08
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And it ain't like Joe could put a cap in his rear end and not hear about it come Thanksgiving time.
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Dec 2, 2013 04:13
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I never really come up with much thought provoking analyses or any real input to these discussions, but I will say that Cheese's ultimate end was awfully cathartic.
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Dec 2, 2013 09:27
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omg chael crash posted:I never really come up with much thought provoking analyses or any real input to these discussions, but I will say that Cheese's ultimate end was awfully cathartic. And the best part is the other gangsters don't care except for his part of the share.
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Dec 2, 2013 11:34
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mrg220t posted:And the best part is the other gangsters don't care except for his part of the share. The gently caress did you do that for?
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Dec 2, 2013 14:45
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mrg220t posted:And the best part is the other gangsters don't care except for his part of the share. I re watched that yesterday. I was amused to note that fat face Rick threw his cigar on top of cheese's body as everyone left. Good thing the city crime lab ain't worth poo poo!
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Dec 2, 2013 16:42
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Its funny too because you can imagine that many people over the years have wanted to kill Cheese but his relation to Prop Joe would have always saved him. So once Joe is dead Cheese demonstrates just how long he would have survived in the game had he been on his own. He acted like a dick(something he's spent his whole life doing) one time in front of people who didn't respect him and bam he's unceremoniously killed. Cheese wasn't in the game for real until Joe died but he never realized it.
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Dec 2, 2013 17:18
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Skeesix posted:I re watched that yesterday. I was amused to note that fat face Rick threw his cigar on top of cheese's body as everyone left. Good thing the city crime lab ain't worth poo poo! Also re-watched it, his hand is still twitching when they leave 
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Dec 2, 2013 17:48
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Basebf555 posted:Its funny too because you can imagine that many people over the years have wanted to kill Cheese but his relation to Prop Joe would have always saved him. So once Joe is dead Cheese demonstrates just how long he would have survived in the game had he been on his own. He acted like a dick(something he's spent his whole life doing) one time in front of people who didn't respect him and bam he's unceremoniously killed. Cheese wasn't in the game for real until Joe died but he never realized it. Well they respected his money... Excellent point though. I also loved that they just booked out of there while the body was still twitching. No need to be any more sentimental!
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Dec 2, 2013 21:15
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Basebf555 posted:Its funny too because you can imagine that many people over the years have wanted to kill Cheese but his relation to Prop Joe would have always saved him. So once Joe is dead Cheese demonstrates just how long he would have survived in the game had he been on his own. He acted like a dick(something he's spent his whole life doing) one time in front of people who didn't respect him and bam he's unceremoniously killed. Cheese wasn't in the game for real until Joe died but he never realized it. Remember when he first meets Brother Mouzone? Mouzone explains he's been sent by Avon Barksdale, and Cheese replies,"Yeah that name rings out.... but so does mine." Even back then he thought he was essentially on the same level as the King of West Baltimore, guy had absolutely no idea how out of his depth he was without Joe keeping him afloat.
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Dec 2, 2013 21:42
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GreenCard78 posted:The gently caress did you do that for? Now we're short the 9! This sentimental motherfucker just cost us money. If you watch the scene again, you can hear someone mutter "he deserved it", or something to that effect, when Cheese is laying on the ground, twitching.
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Dec 2, 2013 23:29
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escape artist posted:Now we're short the 9! This sentimental motherfucker just cost us money. Since we're on this subject, I was amazed at the character progression of Slim Charles, from a man who acted as an enforcer for Avon Barksdale, to being the man who came out on top of the game, who has the connection to the Greek now. I have a feeling Slim, had the series continued, would have lasted much longer than Avon/Joe. fake edit: Slim shooting Cheese was, I think, one of the most genuine displays of loyalty in The Wire, at least on the street level.
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Dec 2, 2013 23:40
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Corny posted:Since we're on this subject, I was amazed at the character progression of Slim Charles, from a man who acted as an enforcer for Avon Barksdale, to being the man who came out on top of the game, who has the connection to the Greek now. I have a feeling Slim, had the series continued, would have lasted much longer than Avon/Joe. Remember when Slim was offered Joe's territory? And he said "No disrespect, but I ain't cut out to be no CEO." That speaks to something about his character. He was consistent, he was driven by practicality (as practical as you can get in crime), and he never stepped on anyone's toes. He was subordinate to Avon in Season 3, Joe in Season 4 and Marlo in Season 5. After their various flaws brought them down, Slim was the one left standing (and Ricky).
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Dec 2, 2013 23:44
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I was always taken by his (I feel genuine) comments to Omar when held at gunpoint. He knows he's dead and he just accepts that, and he doesn't beg or plead, just asks that Omar get it over with. More importantly though, despite all his loyalty to Joe he straight up tells Omar that if Joe had been involved in Butchie's torture and death in any way, Slim would have helped Omar get Joe. "A man got to have a code."
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Dec 3, 2013 00:01
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Jerusalem posted:I was always taken by his (I feel genuine) comments to Omar when held at gunpoint. He knows he's dead and he just accepts that, and he doesn't beg or plead, just asks that Omar get it over with. More importantly though, despite all his loyalty to Joe he straight up tells Omar that if Joe had been involved in Butchie's torture and death in any way, Slim would have helped Omar get Joe. Yeah, that scene is very important, too. And I never once doubted his sincerity in that scene. Omar didn't, either.
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Dec 3, 2013 00:23
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