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Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

General Battuta posted:

I hate the Greek so much. Every other 'villain' in the series, even Marlo, has some kind of pull or appeal (even if, in Marlo's case, it's terror). But the Greek's just smug business in a greasy diner and he's got everything set up perfectly. I hate hate hate him. He's a creative success and I wouldn't erase him from the series but God do I hate his stupid little face.

I dunno, The Greek is arguably more sympathetic than Marlo. The Greek murders people, true, but he does so out of self preservation. Marlo has people killed because he likes the reputation it brings. With the Greek, if business is going smoothly, nobody is getting murdered.

Ziggy is the most frustrating character for me because a lot of what he does is self inflicted. He gets treated like a joke, sure, but he also willfully embraces that reputation half of the time, and fights it the other half. He sets out to make people laugh and then gets mad when they do.

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Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

awesmoe posted:

If business is going smoothly it's because he's successfully moving sex slaves (and drugs) across the atlantic

He's terrible no doubt but Marlo is minus the sex slaves but far more murder. I'd consider murder worse than sex slavery. Kinda splitting hairs, though.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Wow I never realized Dante shot Tasha. Such a subtle little detail. Iirc Kimmy (is that her name? i forget) doesn't even realize that, nor Omar. In fact she almost certainly doesn't based on the way she goes Princess Vespa on the Barksdale soldier right after that.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

I'm pretty sure she does realize that. She insinuates that she might tell the police what happened and glares at him. Omar breaks up the argument and says it's on him, that he killed her.

I guess I must have zoned out during that scene. Like a forty degree day.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Michael annoys me because I don't feel like the show earned his transformation into Omar. It feels really clumsy how he busts in and rubs the drug dealers and starts making wise cracks like Omar too. Michael was never the type to joke around like that. It felt hamfisted in a way the Wire normally isn't. Like I get that Michael is supposed to be following Omar's path but he's not supposed to be a word for word clone of him.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

little munchkin posted:

Michael doing an impression of Omar is meant to emphasize how cyclical crime is. People get shot or arrested but since the underlying issues that lead to the drug trade don't get fixed, everything just repeats itself.

I get that, but that doesn't mean Michael magically changes into Omar. I have no problem with Michael attempting to follow Omar's path, I just take offense in how that means he automatically has a shot gun and is trying to make wise cracks. It just feels out of character to me and forced. The type of personality Michael has would have him trying his own way of doing the stick up game I think, not parroting Omar.

I mean poo poo they might as well have had Michael making out with a guy too for how heavy handed they were with Michael = Omar.

cosmically_cosmic posted:

While it is meant to do that, I kind of agree that the way they executed it was a little too heavy handed. I think people would have understood if he was drug ripping like Omar, without also copying his whole aesthetic without establishing why (I don't remember him ever mentioning being a big fan of Omar though I guess a lot of people in the game were).

So basically this.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Whenever I've watched a show with my mom she just shouts at the TV about what other films/shows an actor that shows up has been in. Then she passes out like a half hour in to whatever we're watching.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Jerusalem posted:

I think the Barksdales were always going to fall - any group that gets that big is gonna start drawing attention, and increasing territory means increasing "staff" which just ups the potential for things to get sloppy/hosed up. Stringer had the right idea that they reach a certain size and then use the money to go legit and become untouchable, but he approached it the wrong way with that same McNulty mentality of "I'm the smartest guy, I don't need help" and just left himself more exposed. Plus Avon would never have given up his power/reputation for legitimacy, any more than Marlo was able to even after he "won" - and of course as has been noted many times, Stringer wouldn't have gotten to that position where legitimacy was possible if if hadn't been for Avon doing "the other thing".

I think had McNulty never put a bug up the Judge's rear end, one of Avon's lieutenants would have eventually hosed up again like DeAngelo did, or gotten greedy or crossed the wrong hungry young soldier, and that would have lead to violence on the streets and the police would have been dragged in regardless. Somebody would have flipped or Avon would have made a mistake by trying to be on the frontline and end up either arrested or dead, and then we'd you'd get Prop Joe carefully exploitng Stringer's sensibilities via the New Day Co-Op like he'd probably always planned, just without Avon getting involved. If Avon was dead, Joe and Stringer would have left Marlo to hold his streets and just remained in distribution buying drugs for $1 and selling them for $2, and Joe would have quietly ended up the quiet King of East AND West Baltimore... until Cheese managed to gently caress things up for him, at least.

Cheese might have been the vehicle through which Joe got betrayed but ultimately Marlo would have found some other way to stick it to him anyways. It was always going to be a mistake to bring Marlo into the fold of the co-op. Marlo was a leader, not a follower. He would have seized on any advantage he could get over Joe.

Marlo made the same mistake with Michael, though. Michael had too much of an independent streak in him to remain unfailingly loyal to Marlo. Marlo wanted Michael in the fold because of his fearlessness and willingness to step to anyone (both attributes Marlo strove for himself) but ironically those same attributes prevented Michael from having the same type of company man style loyalty that Chris, Snoop, and O-Dog had.

At any rate if Avon had stayed out of jail and maintained his muscle it's unlikely Marlo would have been able to compete with him after the high rises went down. Avon with Slim, Wee-Bey, etc plus a much larger war chest would have been enough to drive Marlo from the streets. Even as diminished as Avon's organization was by season 3 he was still about to execute a successful hit against Marlo right up until the police raided the warehouse. And that was with Avon without his best hitters.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Unzip and Attack posted:

Respectfully disagree. Prop Joe was in the game for a long rear end time and he did it by staying humble and staying alert. Cheese was his weak spot because he was family. One has to assume that Joe didn't have all that many lieutenants that he kept on such a loose leash. One of the themes of The Wire for me is that while things are cyclical, they are not repetitive- certain old ways of doing things, social norms, etc., exist for a while and then they are used as weapons by those desperate or underhanded enough to wield them. Think of Bunk's speech to Omar about the way things were when they were growing up and how things have gotten so much worse, or the attempted hit on Sunday, or Omar being unable to see a child as a deadly threat. Times do change and whatever code of conduct exists out there, it's just another way for someone to get at you.

This is one of those moments for me- Joe values family and his old fashioned ways are his undoing. Cheese was THE way to get to him.

EDIT: Charles killing him in the end is so satisfying because the viewer wants to believe there is a code to the street. To some degree there is, but it's only as powerful as the sum total of all who choose to practice it.

You don't think Marlo would have eventually found a way anyways? The minute Joe brought Marlo into the fold he sealed his doom imo. It was just a matter of when. Cheese was a definite blind spot, and probably the worst one Joe had, but Joe was hosed from the start imo because he made the same mistake Stringer did of trying to control Marlo by bringing him into the fold. Marlo was never going to bow to anyone else. Joe thought he could earn some respect and loyalty from Marlo by teaching him the business, but as Marlo said he wasn't made to play the son.

Avon understood Marlo because he was the only who thought anything like him.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

I don't know if Marlo would have done it via open war but if he did I'm not sure how many would have rallied to Joe's defense. Most of those other dealers were likely terrified of Marlo.

Regardless of how he did it I just think it was inevitable he'd have found a way. He wouldn't have stopped trying if his attempts with Cheese didn't bear fruit. He would have succeeded eventually I think.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Jerusalem posted:

For all the issues I have with the newspaper storyline, I'll forever love McNulty "confessing" to Scott and giving him the BIGGEST news story he will ever get in his life, safe in the knowledge that Scott could never report it without exposing himself.

Paraphrased, but McNulty's "I know why I did it, but the one thing I can't figure out is what YOU get out of this?" is such a great line.

I actually wasn't a huge fan of that. It felt kinda self serving to me. Like it was what David Simon really wanted to say to someone so he had Mcnulty say it to Templeton.

But I didn't like the Templeton character at all. He was just so one note, which is weirdly out of place on the Wire with how multifaceted most of the characters are.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Was watching random Wire clips as I often do and found myself watching the whole scene where Stringer finally gets caught talking on the phone about illegal poo poo. And I realized....those two hitters that Shamrock is talking about being "good with it". He must mean killing Clay Davis. At that point in the show Stringer has next to nothing to do with managing the Barksdale/Stanfield war so what would he need killers for? Only logical explanation is he still wants to hit Clay even after being told no.

So Omar/Mouzone kinda saved Clay's rear end too.

But it's also another example of Stringer being caught between two worlds. Even if Omar and Mouzone don't kill him and his plan works and Avon gets locked up he's still going to get end up in prison himself if he were to actually hurt Clay Davis. That would bring hell down on him like Avon said. But Stringer is so proud he still can't let it go even though it's going to ruin him if he does it.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Ornithology posted:

I haven't re-watched in a while, can't remember something from the show. Why does Prop Joe give so much info to Marlo about his connect and how to launder money? Joe seems like the most level headed gangster in the show but not giving up your connect is like drug dealer 101. Is it just to avoid violence?

Omar steals a shipment from Joe. Joe is able to convince his other dealers to stick with him and not make him eat the expenses because he threatens to cut off the other dealers from his supplier if they don't accept his offer.

Marlo however craves more assurances than that and Joe (probably out of fear of reprisal, and because he likes having Marlo's muscle on his side) allows Marlo to meet up with Spiros in order to hear directly from him that Joe isn't pulling something shady since Marlo has no proof that Joe isn't screwing him on the allegedly stolen shipment.

As for why he teaches him to launder money well Joe is hoping to keep Marlo happy and on his side so that Joe can use Marlo's muscle to dominate the Baltimore drug trade. The problem is Joe fails to put two and two together when Marlo asks how to launder money and doesn't realize he's trying to usurp him.

I'm not 100% thrilled with that whole storyline to be honest. It makes sense but it doesn't feel completely earned. I feel like Joe should see through what Marlo is trying to do and indeed Slim even warns Joe to be wary of Marlo's intentions. Joe hand waves that off by saying the Greeks are too cautious to meet with anyone but him but he should realize more than anyone how the Greeks will keep business going at the cost of anyone - even him.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

StashAugustine posted:

Which, of course, he is

I love the little details like this in the Wire too. They don't hit you over the head with them. Unless you're paying attention you don't realize on your first watch that Omar asks Joe for 20 on the dollar for the heroin and then when Joe is selling the dealers the shipment that Omar sold to him he charges the dealers 30 on the dollar for it, thus recouping some expenses.

Joe owns.

It's important to note too he doesn't lose to Marlo because he's treating him like a son or with kindness. He's 100% trying to use Marlo as basically his own personal muscle. But using someone as ambitious and cold blooded as Marlo was a danger Joe didn't properly respect.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

twerking on the railroad posted:

Personally it always bothered me that the Greeks didn't either tip off Joe that Marlo was getting on them.

I mean, Marlo is clearly trouble for them. Clearly impetuous and takes crazy risks. Worst case they might figure someone sniffing around them that hard might be a cop. And yet they go on with him for some half-baked reason. Makes no sense.

Well they didn't exactly give Marlo an endorsement. Their stance was to work with Joe but that if Joe was out of the picture they'd begrudgingly go along with Marlo. I can understand them not tipping off Joe because they want to be as removed as possible from the actual drug trade. They're a wholesaler, and if they start taking sides they're liable to get dragged into the conflicts that happen which isn't something they want.


Jerusalem posted:

The Greek makes the same mistake with Frank, telling him to take the money they give him and splurge on himself (something The Greek himself would never do), which is exactly the wrong thing to say since Frank is on a crusade and believes his cause is just in spite of the horrible poo poo he has had to face up being complicit in. He assumes (correctly in most cases) that criminals are in it to make money first and foremost, whereas for Marlo the money itself was at best secondary and usually tertiary to his actual concern which was prestige/power.

I feel like Avon was the only one who really understood Marlo. Businessmen like Stringer and Joe couldn't grasp what Marlo was really after, and they thought they could use him for their own ends.

They didn't realize that Marlo was actually every bit as cunning and intelligent as them, but was just utilizing that intelligence towards a different goal.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Method Man does such a good job with Cheese. One of my favorite performances on a show that has a lot of great ones.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Ornithology posted:

Something I didn't fully process was if there was an overall theme or purpose to Bunk's character? I haven't re-watched in a while but he didn't seem to have much of a character arc if I recall correctly. I am not going to lie, I missed a bunch of his lines as I found his accent difficult to understand compared to any other character (I'm from Canada if that is any consolation). Just seemed like so many scenes of him and McNulty drinking their sorrows away, does he exist mainly just to show how hosed up the cop's lives are and what an actually competent detective looks like? He seemed pretty similar to McNulty in that respect though.

He's kinda the straight man to Mcnulty's destructiveness. Bunk shows up to work and does his job and does it the "right" way. Oh sure he drinks and womanizes like Mcnulty, but he controls his worst tendencies and doesn't let them destroy everyone around him. He works within the system. And unlike Mcnulty, he doesn't have an ego and a need to prove his competence.

But yeah I do think he's also there to show that even a normal person like Bunk who doesn't have Mcnulty's crippling ego issues can still get caught up in the stresses of the job.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Feels realistic too because it illustrates how even the idealistic and noble types like Kima get caught up in the system.

When you treat the drug trade like a war, people act like soldiers, and even someone with good intentions like Kima is not much different.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

I find Gus kind of irritating tbh. He's a little too smugly cool for my tastes and he doesn't feel as obviously flawed as the rest of the Wire's characters. Probably doesn't help that Scott Templeton is equally one note.

Season 5 still has a lot of great stuff to it though. The weakest season of the Wire is better than most shows.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

BrotherJayne posted:

Edit: Also, what the gently caress, Avon? You knew you needed to muscle up, and were cut off from the pool of northern enforcers. So develop the goddamn local talent! It's not like Stringer ain't got the fuckin's warchest to fund it. Shiiiiieeeeeeet.

Even with his mistakes Avon was still going to win the war vs Marlo up until Stringer ratted him out. I'd say quality soldiers was far less a problem than internal strife between him and String.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

BrotherJayne posted:

I disagree... but I'm also a hard and conservative believer in needing 3 to 1 advantage when attacking someone on their home turf, which is a rule of thumb readily ignored by many (which makes sense, given the rather hit and run nature of their conflicts)

I mean when Avon got arrested he had a location on Marlo and like ten goons with heavy weapons ready to go over there and unload on him. Even with as sloppy as drug hits can be I don't see how Marlo gets out of that situation alive.

If Avon had a unified camp I don't see how Marlo wins that drug war.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Dumb Lowtax posted:

I just found some really old questions I had written down to post and never did.

1. When Omar robbed Marlo at the poker game, why wouldn't he have just shot Marlo as soon as Marlo promised revenge, while on his way out with all the money? Could have saved himself a lot of trouble later, although I'm guessing there's a good reason.

2. When the police led by Marimow went around raiding all the suspected stashhouses and came up empty, why wasn't Old Face Andre's convenience store on the list? Didn't Greggs document it as a stash house? She certainly thought it was one. Wasn't it still a major distribution point?

3. When the other prisoner made an attempt on Omar in the prison cafeteria, it seemed like they were already somehow in line ahead of Omar and picked a fight with someone else who was also ahead of Omar as a cover for the attack. How could the attacker have known Omar was going to get in line right behind him? lol

1) I could be forgetting, but if I'm not mistaken Omar didn't know that was Marlo at the card game. All Joe told Omar was it was a valuable card game worth robbing. Even if Omar did know it was Marlo, he didn't have any reason to execute him at the time and doing that wouldn't be Omar's way. Omar only gets that way when given a reason and Marlo hadn't yet given one at that point.

2) I don't remember Kima doing that. I do remember Bunk identifying it as a drug house when he was trying to verify Andre's story about Omar but he did it in an off handed comment kind of way and I never got the impression he officially reported it.

3) Butchie's friends that got sent into prison to help Omar may have set it up that way. My guess is they let it be known Omar was about to come out and join the line, and then made sure Omar got into position but with the proper protection to defend himself.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

There is also a recurring theme in old liberal people that I have noticed where basically they are too broke brained by years of failure and Capitalism to even imagine that there can be a better way, and they assume any far left or idealistic candidate is going to lose. Nobody is more emblematic of that than Chris Matthews, but I wouldn't be surprised if David Simon is another one of those who wants change but believes it can only come from what he perceives to be the more realistic candidate.

For some reason a lot of older liberals just can't accept the idea that major change is possible or a good idea. They've been told for years that it has to be incremental and there has to be compromise to get anything done and that concept is drilled into their heads.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

ruddiger posted:

Avon bankrolled a non-profit gym, threw community barbecues, and he and Prop Joe were able to broker a yearly truce so they can fund the yearly cross-town rivalry basketball game.

All that definitely went away once Marlo took over.

Avon also murdered his girlfriends, murdered kids, tortured and murdered people who stole from him. Murdered the working man for being an honest witness.

Less horrible than Marlo but not by much

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Hasselblad posted:

How on earth is that less horrible?

Did you forget Marlo Stanfield exists

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Syrian Lannister posted:

So I'm in the middle of another rewatch, and almost finished episode 10. I know what's coming up, and I'm still bothered by it; side note Rawls in episode 11 nails it.

Wallace getting dropped, although it sucked didn't bother me. Same with Bodie and D.

Yeah I got upset when Orlando got popped too :(

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

zenguitarman posted:

One thing that was always unclear to me was stringer's graveyard meeting with colvin and it could just be me not hearing it correctly. String asks Colvin that he hopes he can "keep that to five." Colvin replies "it's going to be a nickle at least," to which String says "Come on, man" and is upset. Does he want the minimum jail time for Avon so he's out of the way for just a few years?

Yeah he wants Avon in jail so that the war with Marlo can stop. I guess he figures that once Avon gets out of jail it will be five years later and they'll have an understanding with Marlo by then or will have solved that problem in a way other than war. And at that point he'll be fine with turning the reigns back over to Avon since both of them will be able to focus on business rather than a war.

It's a naive position since even if Avon goes to jail for a few years Marlo isn't going anywhere and once Avon gets out he's going to want to go right back after Marlo.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

escape artist posted:

Yeah, I just googled and it looks like I misremembered. The Greek is pure capitalism. Marlo, perhaps the pursuit of raw power.

My name is not my name versus my name is my name.

Both statements pretty much sum up both characters' approach to the idea of power and what it represents.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

I didn't dislike season 5, but I'm just not a big fan of the newspaper subplot. Templeton is a completely flat and one dimensional character, especially by The Wire's standards. The rest of the newspaper characters come off as similarly flat and one dimensional.

I like what they did plot-wise with the season and the police/omar/marlo stuff is all great but I don't feel like the newspaper angle was pulled off as well as a show like the Wire can.

Maybe part of that is them having only 10 episodes instead of their usual 13. Perhaps they could have done a better job character building with a few more episodes so that people like Scott and Gus feel less like caricatures.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Rollie Fingers posted:

Yeah I'm surprised to read Season 2 seems to have a mixed reaction. I thought the season was exceptional and some of the hardest hitting TV I've watched.

After reading more about David Simon in the last few days, I'm surprised he wrote such a sympathetic tribute to the working class since he seems like an arch centrist.

I don't think centrists are incapable of understanding that capitalism causes a lot of suffering. The problem is they think it can be reformed.

Well actually David Simon doesn't even necessarily think capitalism can be reformed. He of all people knows how hard that would be. But he has this idealized vision of a society where capitalism and socialism coexist and create a sort of free thinking, free enterprise society where anyone succeed. Thing is, I'm not sure any society that utilizes capitalism to any degree could ever exist like that.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

I always liked how Rawls tries to make his move to supplant Burrell and then falls on his face, and how Burrell after being portrayed as inept at operations for much of the series later proves his political worth to Carcetti by helping him handle the Herc situation. Then there's Marlo who we rarely see getting his hands dirty and there is maybe that lingering doubt about why he has the following he does and then we see at the end of the series with that scuffle on a corner that oh he can actually handle himself on the street pretty well when he has to.

Chase does a good job showing why all of these people get into the positions they're in. It's not an accident that Burrell has the role he does. He may be inept at operations, but he's as skilled politically as anyone in the police department, and that does at times bring real value to the Mayors he answers to. And then there's Daniels who for all his integrity and excellence at operations is unwilling (and in some ways unable) to play the political game well, a requirement to climb the ladder all the way to the top. Rawls is skilled at executing Burrell's initiatives, but not all that great at actual politics.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

bucketybuck posted:

I don't know about that, after all, in the end Rawls rose higher than any of them and he did so by making smart moves at the right times. I think politically he did the very best that he could all things considered, he did supplant Burrell and the only reason it was wasn't long term was because he was white at a time that when that didn't suit. And even then he parlayed that situation into another promotion for himself, unlike Burrell who simply got moved along.

I also wouldn't give Burrell too much credit for knowing a sneaky way to handle the Herc situation. Daniels may have been too straight forward for a case like that but I would totally see Rawls finding some obscure regulation to use as a way to manage out an employee.

Rawls completely misread the room when he talked to Carcetti and blamed Burrell's position on affirmative action. He also completely misunderstood that Carcetti could never put a white man as commissioner when he himself was a white mayor. That would never get by the ministers and some of his base. Valchek even makes fun of Rawls for thinking he's got a shot at Burrell's job, but Valchek is far more politically savy than Rawls.

I think Rawls only real political skill (if you could call it that) is that he's loyal to his superiors and completely unbending when it comes to implementing their aims. The only time he shows any disloyalty to a superior at all is to Burrell and he only does that because Carcetti directly tells him that Burrell has to clear any orders through Rawls first.

He's an excellent deputy opps (at least far as his superiors are concerned) because he executes the will of his superiors without any reservations at all, no matter who that hurts or annoys below him. But I don't think he has the political skills of Burrell who might not know the best way to execute policies but does know how to navigate political situations.

The only one on Burrell's level politically in the department is Valchek.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

ilmucche posted:

When they're making the busts in the out in season 1 and Bodie decks the cop I'm surprised kima comes across to join in beating on him. It struck me as out of character for her to sprint over to do that

I didn't think it was out of character at all, and it was a good example early on of the Wire subverting expectations. Kima is portrayed early on as one of the more competent cops on the unit, and because she's not a gently caress up when you see her sprinting over towards Bodie you assume she's going over there to break up the fight before someone eats a police brutality charge. And if the Wire were a typical Cop drama, that's exactly what she'd do.

But really, she's as much one of the boys as any of the others, and I think that scene (along with Daniels beating up Bird in the interrogation room) shows that even the better/more decent detectives/bosses are still far from perfect and get caught up in the drug war mentality of us vs them.

Even Bunny who properly critiques the War on Drugs for being the hosed up mess it is doesn't completely extricate himself from that mentality. His whole thing (at least in season three) isn't treating the dealers/addicts as people - it's basically his way of fighting back against what he perceives as flawed methods for dealing with the problem. But his solution still shows how trapped he is in that same us vs theme mentality because he just moves the dealers and addicts off the corners and pushes them off to a place where he hopes they'll be forgotten and the result is a hellhole until he gets guilt tripped into letting the Deacon and his people actually try to help some of the addicts and dealers there.

Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Sep 27, 2020

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

ilmucche posted:

Butchie's story about his uncle cutting his fingers off is great. I like that omar laughs silently, so butchie can't even tell he's laughing.

Butchie's kind of an interesting character because he's got the whole kindly wise old man thing going on and you could say that makes him a bit boring but then there's the whole thing with him helping to smuggle the drugs in that get inmates killed and the corrupt guard arrested. And ultimately Avon released early. So his hands aren't really clean and that's a pretty nasty thing to do even if he probably feels some pressure to do it based on Avon himself asking.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Ainsley McTree posted:

His most sympathetic scene is the scene where hes coaching herc (a man whos also horrible) on how to get the most leverage out of blackmailing the mayor. The show never even tries to make him three dimensional and frankly Im grateful for it, its nice to have someone to feel good about hating now and then

He does also say rest in peace or something in Polish after he learns that Frank died.

He's a piece of poo poo but as with pretty much every character on the Wire he's not totally irredeemable.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

It sucks that the other kids didn't get the same opportunity but Namond is probably the least suited of all of them for a life on the streets. Bunny isn't being hyperbolic when he tells Wee-Bay that Namond is going to end up dead or in prison if he tries to follow in his foot steps.

Also Namond isn't the only one who gets out I guess. Bug possibly does as well? He gets away from his toxic mother and his pedo father and as much as Michael cares for him getting away from him is probably a good thing too given how Michael earns his money.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

I guess you could say the Wire is being unusually sympathetic to cops in that most real world police seem to be huge assholes and in the Wire only most of the cops are assholes and even the ones that are assholes have some redeeming qualities. :v:

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

I felt like a lot of Prez's early violence came down to unhappiness about his career path (he's not really happy/fulfilled or even good at police work until he lands with the Wire detail and specifically with Freamon) and also a desire to prove himself "one of the boys". He sees the other beat cops/field cops displaying a macho attitude and being violent etc but he himself has no idea how to tread that line without going overboard and goes way past it by blinding the kid and before that shooting up his squad car.

This is not in any way excusing his behavior. He's a huge rear end in a top hat for blinding the kid and when he shoots the cop later on there probably is a bit of racism there in his decision even if at a subconscious level (as Prez said, how do you even know if that's in your head?). But I dunno if he's actively malicious.

His face turn as a teacher is I think at first motivated by a desire to redeem himself for what he did as a cop but it later turns into him actually genuinely caring about his kids and wanting them to succeed.

So I dunno. I it didn't feel totally unearned to me but if it were real life this

Rollie Fingers posted:

In real life a violent cop like that would stay in the force and keep murdering.

would be how that story would play out 99% of the time.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

A lot of people rate 4 as the best and I do like but I dunno. On my recent re-watch I felt like I enjoyed 3 the most. There's a lot going on in that season and it all owns.

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Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

We see glimpses of how dangerous Marlo is as a street player. His murder of Devon is pretty coldblooded, and he's shown handling himself pretty well with a gun when his gang is practice shooting bottles. Nobody gets to the position Marlo is at without getting their hands dirty and being real good at it. Even The Greek looks pretty vicious when he stabs that one guy after sweettalking him into telling the truth.

Not saying they're like kung fu ninjas or whatever but anyone at the top of those organizations has bodies to their name and can handle themselves in that regard.

They let others mostly do the killing for them (unless it's a situation like Devon where Marlo wanted to send a message) because that's a perk of the job. But if needed, they're capable. We don't really see Avon's streetgame but I have no doubt that character has killed before and is proficient at it.

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